Origins at Shaolin Temple

[WinterPalm]

With all the forms of kung fu practiced by the people on thus forum they all have something in common: a southern origin. This can be from a temple or just a geographical location. With the new issue of Kung Fu Qi Gong Magazine on news stands, I'm sure those of you who read it have read the article on the original southern temple being confirmed and now being rebuilt. The temple plans to become a full fledged school of Shaolin and buddhist teachings and I've wondered, as many kung fu masters have left china during the communist ideological campaign of "good comrades don't fight", are there many Sifu's that wish to return to where their "ancestors" trained. Do they want to take on the responsibility of teaching the original, or what is left of the original arts? Can the temple ever be anything similar to what it was or just another attempt at capturing some piece of culture that has been lost due to modern times?

I find these questions interesting and hope to see the temple up and running and teaching good kung fu.

[Shaolin Master]

Many of us with ancestorship in Southern Fujianese and Shaolin arts have already been asked to the Putian temple or Other related Soutern Shaolin Meetings.
As for a period of few years we were asked to return to teach our arts this includes taizuquan, wuzuquan, Luohanquan etc..... back to those of the new Putian Temple.

Fact is there is no greater reward for a martial artist than the art itself. So Temple or no temple it is what you now hold not what can be imagined.

The site below contains equivocal details on Southern Shaolin
http://members.lycos.nl/saolim/zuid_shaolin.html

Regards,
Wuchanlong

[GeneChing]

SM - That site you posted above is by the very same author of the article we ran in our Jan/Feb 2003 issue (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf200114.html) on stands now. He even mentions the article there, but it doesn't look like his link to us is live yet.

[yuanfen]

Gene- Nice dream but I doubt that Humpty Dumpty can be put back together again. "The moving finger writes and moves on...".
Much water under the bridge since the coming of the PRC. Some of the new rebuilding moves are simply commerce under state
authorization. A Buddhist is a Buddhist- no matter where they are.
And Chen Xiao Wang in Australia is no less a Taiji person...
Wing Lam in California is no less a Hung Gar person etc.
Joy Chaudhuri

[JAZA]

The tematic parks have been the salvation table for Disney corporation.
If China have a plan to exploit tourism I don't think is a bad idea, in a commercially focus, use the Shaolin Temple as main attracttions.
About Msters return to China, I think it depends if they have more success inside or outside China. In the case of Chen Xiao Wan I think that he have more opportunietes making seminars around the world.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

I think the really great thing is the discovery of the actual historical Southern Sil Lum Temple. I would have preferred if they would have preserved the site as is after fully excavating it and built the new temple adjacent to it. What arts they bring there...well it would be great if they brought traditional southern sil Lum arts home again. It is true the traditional southern fist is alive across the world, but they should also exist in the southern temple.

GHD

[Shaolin Master]

Gene,
Apologies, unfortunately although I used to purchase your magaizine issues, sinceI have been in China it is unobtainable and the price (85Yuan or so) if found is way high in comparison to the Chinese magazines which of course as you know contain fantastic information and discussions as well (WuLin,WuHun,QingWu,Wudang,ShaolinYuTaiji,ZhongHua Wushu etc for 3-4Yuan).

TOpic,
In china there are currently two movements: The Wushu commercial movement and the traditional one. It is unfortunately the Wushu demonstrative onethat is winning. Thisis actually dueto the generalpublic they enjoy falshiness over real skill. SOit isa difficult situation and may always be. However,if southern shaolin attracts tourists it will attract customerswhich will attract teachers which is better than keeping them in an old village passing the time with no successors. WIthout trying something sometimes nothing will happen.

[WinterPalm]

My Sifu co-authored the article and his site has more information on the temple including other aspects of southern kung fu he teaches.
Here is the link:

http://www.mts.net/~sillum/Inner%20Chamber.htm

[Gold Horse Dragon]

The on line info at Shaolin West Kwoon is pretty much the same as on the above link (except Gene, there is an active link to K/Q on Shaolin West's Links page!). The authors current printed article in K/Q's current issue has more info than their on line version.

GHD

[GeneChing]

...Actually it's not up to the government. It's up to us. This attitude about the reconstruction of Shaolin has always irked me. It's the PRC, or it's wushu, or tourism. We actually have quite a bit of control. Right now, Nan Shaolinsi is solicting folk masters to help rebuild it's southern lineages, just as Songshan Shaolinsi has done. So if you want Shaolin to be something, to be connected to your lineage, you go back and put it there. I know some people who are doing just that.

Of course, CMA has spread around the world, and that's great. But we all must honor our origins - it's the Confucian thing to do. Take for example, Bodh Gaya (where Buddha was enlightened) as a model. Now there's no doubt that Buddhism has valid transmissions around the world. In fact, it's pretty small in India now. The Mahabodhi temple (next to the diamond seat - the actual spot where Buddha was enlightened) was looted pretty bad during the colonial years and fell into a state of disrepair. But since then, it has been rebuilt and countries from around the world have built temples, each in their own cultural style. Japan, China, Tibet, Thailand, and many other countries have brought their teaching back to Bodh Gaya. I was disappointed to see the America has yet to do anything there. But while I was there, there were pilgrimages of all sorts, different cultures, different rituals, all buddhism. And the tourism, that was the worst place I have ever been for scamming tourists. We literally had to flee in the dead of night when it is not recommended to travel since the roads a ridden with dacoits (bandits) who prey on tourists. Their tradition of tourist milking goes back thousands of years.

So my point is, sure Shaolin can't be the same as it was. After all, there's indoor plumbing, electricity, phones, even internet. No, we can't go back. But we can go on. We can be more. And it's up to us.

So quit your belly aching :p

[yuanfen]

Gene sez:So quit your belly aching
------------------------------------------------------------
Good points Gene- including the importance of keeping Bodh Gaya
alive.

Joy

[David Jamieson]

Bring the masters from Taiwan and Hong Kong back into it (southern shaolin) and we would see a large body of the southern fist laws revived i would think.

The arts that the kmt has kept in it's various organizations over the years and the chinese freemasons who have the arts that they brought out of china.

there needs to be a large culmination of materials and masters followed by a sorting (a la 1928 tourney of sorts), then cannonizing and codification and finally redistribution of the final result vis a vis the shaolin temple.

same as the northern temple.

the PRC will need to open their arms to the traditionalists for real.

I think it's possible that this is and will continue to happen in our lifetimes. As newer and fresher thinkers come to power in China and all over the world many things will open.

cheers

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Winterpalm

Shaolin temple played a small part in the development of kung fu. Even if it had played a large part. the geographic origns is of little relvence today. what practical reasons would there be for masters of today going back to china when they may may successful businesses in US, HK or Taiwan? I think you a nothing more than a nostalgic SOB. You should stop feeling that way as another year is just about to go by!

[Gold Horse Dragon]

EE


Shaolin temple played a small part in the development of kung fu.

Man you sure need to get a history lesson! The Sil Lum Temple(s) was the major source for edifying, codifying, expanding, testing etc. etc. etc. many of the major martial arts in China.



what practical reasons would there be for masters of today going back to china when they may may successful businesses in US, HK or Taiwan?

There is more to life than just running a business...if it were otherwise, no sifu would have ever taught...on the whole there is little to no money when a sifu teaches the traditional way.


I think you (WP) a nothing more than a nostalgic SOB.

What can I say other than you are rude and ignorant.


You should stop feeling that way as another year is just about to go by!

Has nothing to do with the end of a year...it has to do with a significant archeological find and bringing traditional Southern Sil Lum martial arts back to their origin, rather than having just contemporary wushu

GHD

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Gold Horse Dragon

"Man you sure need to get a history lesson! The Sil Lum Temple(s) was the major source for edifying, codifying, expanding, testing etc. etc. etc. many of the major martial arts in China."

Martial arts originated in many regions in china and to certain degree they co developed or developed in parallel. In the north, the martial arts styles had major influences from central asia. I would go so far as to say that kung fu is a modern term for martial arts in china. Now China is an arbitary term, it refers more to present political boarders than the social-economics of the past. To say that kung fu originated from shaolin temple is to take away the rich history of kung fu which is exactly what modern wu shu has been doing for a long time.

Good kung fu - especially those from the north are tested on battle fileds. villiage kung fu including those from shaolin temple are not properly tested. later in the 18thC to early 1900s some northern kung fu masters did teach in shaolin temple, which led to the creation of certain branches of the orignal kung fu system.

"There is more to life than just running a business...if it were otherwise, no sifu would have ever taught...on the whole there is little to no money when a sifu teaches the traditional way."

No. Good kung fu masters used to get paid very well in the military. That to me is the traditional way (an honest way) kung fu should be taught. The shamsters are those southern masters who promise mastery of a style after a life time and a half of training. are you one of those sucker students?

"Has nothing to do with the end of a year...it has to do with a significant archeological find and bringing traditional Southern Sil Lum martial arts back to their origin, rather than having just contemporary wushu "

It's impossible to trace the origin of a style. it's more effective to catagorize them in terms of similar characteristics. firstly eliminating those that don't work, which reduces the set to northern kung fu only.

[David Jamieson]

ego-

you're burning both ends of the argument there dude.

???

cheers, happy new years!

[Gold Horse Dragon]

villiage kung fu including those from shaolin temple are not properly tested

Like I said...you need a history lesson. You are way off base here, and not just a little pompous with regard to Northern systems of Chinese martial arts. These village arts were in the front lines against the Ching and they have been tested time and time again on the streets since that time.


To say that kung fu originated from shaolin temple is to take away the rich history of kung fu which is exactly what modern wu shu has been doing for a long time

I clearly stated "The Sil Lum Temple(s) was the major source for edifying, codifying, expanding, testing etc. etc. etc. many of the major martial arts in China"....Let me explain further...Some styles were formed in the Shaolin Temples both southern and northern, others were brought into the temple(s) from already existing styles and expanded on, codified and further developed.


No. Good kung fu masters used to get paid very well in the military

Not all good Masters were in the Military...some were because they sided with the Ching, some were moles to gain info to overthrow the Ching and other great Masters resisted the Ching and fought against the Ching...need an example...Wong Fei Hung, who is one of the Greatest and most revered Masters even to day, along with his most famous student Lam Sai Wing.


The shamsters are those southern masters who promise mastery of a style after a life time and a half of training. are you one of those sucker students?

I do both Southern and Northern Shaolin. On the streets when I have had to defend myself, I used Southern to effectively and efficiently defend myself in life and death fights and numerous other confrontations (having worked in law enforcement). The Southern system gave me those skills, so...then I will gladly be a "sucker student" in your words.

GHD

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Gold Horse Dragon:

I seriously doubt that the villages confronted the Ching armies directly. They were farmers and merchants as opposed to being professional fighters. In contrast northern kung fu has been and continues to be used in the chinese military.

Shaolin temple was not a major source. I agee some arts were brought into the temple by "monks" but that happened on an infequent basis. what was documented in the temples were accordingly second hand from the original sources. The arts have generally been tested before arriving at the temples.

Kung fu existed before the Ching. The disposed dynasty did have good fighters of nothern kung fu and had a military back ground. they became the moles etc... you spoke of. Wong fei hung is over rated. He did southern kung fu.

In law enforcement you use guns to shoot people who feel that they are lucky punks. no need for kung fu.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Ego

History..recorded history proves you wrong...so you still need a history lesson or two and a lesson in reality.
You presume all villagers were farmers!...please come down to reality. Besides, you think farmers couldn't do good kung fu...where do you think the set with the hoe came from, or the horse bench or the wu dip do and who do you think used them...answer...farmers and butchers, blacksmiths etc.

Kung fu existed before the Ching.
Shaolin temple existed before the Ching. By the way who you gonna call...when it comes to routing Japanese pirates?...the emperor at the time called Shaolin to defeat them...not his troops...they couldn't get the job done.

In law enforcement you use guns to shoot people who feel that they are lucky punks. no need for kung fu.
You have been watching too many dirty Harry movies there guy.
Obviously you have never been involved in law enforcement. Like I said, I do both Southern and Northern Shaolin...I find Southern works better in serious encounters on the street...real life experience there guy.

Wong Fei Hung overated!...pleaaase :rolleyes: Chinese have built a monument and building in his Honor, he is celebrated in movies and plays adinfinitum...gee how many million Chinese revere his memory, you think this occurs for just anyone without having achieved greatness through action and character?...think you pretty much stand alone there buddy on your view of him.

Well, enough said...no point in debating this further with you.

GHD

[GeneChing]

Sopme postulate that the Southern Shaolin Temple was entirely mythological. According to some, Shaolin monks were sent by the Songshan temple to defend the coast. They brought artifacts marked "Shaolin" and resided in various Buddhist temples in the area. Over time, the myths grew so much that people believed there really was a Southern Shaolin Temple. Is this the true version? It doesn't really matter now.

Right now, a massive buddhist temple/martial arts school has been erected in Fujian. Right now, they are actively researching the roots of southern styles. So far, I've heard that they are focusing on Ziranmen since it is popular locally apparently and the Songshan curriculam since many of the monks are from Songshan. Right now, many 'traditional' masters are going back to visit this new temple, bringing with them there research and legacies. Where else are martial artists going to come together on a project like this? An L.A. strip mall? :rolleyes:

There may have never been a southern shaolin temple before. Let's build one now.

[NARVAL]

H Gene,
Spot on the right question
However, what do we need a shaolin temple for?
If u took a less positive approach, what downsides would you expect? brand issue? control issues?
Interesed to hear ur views on this.
thanks.
N.

[hasayfu]

Narval,

Not to speak for Gene but I think he means that the history of the the southern shaolin temple (whether real or perceived) will draw experienced southern shaolin people together.

The LA strip mall draws other types of people together.

[WinterPalm]

Wow. I suppose I could argue for myself with you, Ego, or, like your name forces me to, accept the pretentious attitude you display here as childish and moronic. However, does not everyone with a shred of intelligence wonder where their art's and others have come from? I don't care about arguing but really, what do you hope to achieve by insulting myself and other respected members on here. Hasayfu has it right that no matter what the arts will continue to thrive and dispite the true history there can be a unity. Kung fu stresses spirtual aspects that were probably not covered in the military and what could they have been taught? What do the armed forces learn but a couple techniques from a handful of martial arts. Is that complete?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Golden Horse:

I'm not saying that the local villages can't fight. I'm saying that their standard of fighting is less than the average soldier. Is this logical enough for you. In any case being a butcher or a black smith does not make you an expert a wielding a halbard or a broad sword. there are many subtleties in the weapon that need to be mastered that seperates life and death.

With regard to your comments on Japanese pritates, the chinese army is less equip to deal with hit and run raides on unprotected villages. The chinese military are not particularly sea faring so it is very difficult for them to hunt down the pirates in open waters. it makes sense to contract the shaolin monks who have outpost in the southern coast. Although the japanese steel is superior, the shaolin monks can deploy far larger numbers. it doesn't take much to fend off the pirates - they are NOT looking for a fight but easy targets to raid. It is more the case of deterence (having shaolin monks) rather than the fighting abilities which reduced the extent of pirate activity.

My experience with southern kung fu is that it is not as complete as northern styles. Uner circumstance southern could work well but the "sweet spot" is much smaller. Perhaps you're just a lucky guy!

Wong Fei Hung was never known to be a great general or a martial artist except in pop culture. he organized an underground movement that did NOT overthrow the ruling dynasty. he had to get the popular support from the Hun chinese which is why he is remembered today. Most of China now are Hun chinese.

WinterPalm:

"Kung fu stresses spirtual aspects that were probably not covered in the military and what could they have been taught? "

If spirituality is an important ingridient in fighting then wouldn't the military teach the spiritual aspects to its troops? If so and it was not taught, then perhaps it is not (important)

"What do the armed forces learn but a couple techniques from a handful of martial arts. Is that complete?"

That's actually not true. Most Generals master a number of styles. speical forces in china today master a range of northern styles. It is these forms of martial arts that slowly found their way into the general population who added more flowery and redundent moves to the system. That is why most kung fu styles today teach 30 to 100 forms. what rubbish!

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Well, I was not going to post further on this, but what the heck - one more.


I'm not saying that the local villages can't fight. I'm saying that their standard of fighting is less than the average soldier
Totally disagree...modern case in point - Vietnam.

In any case being a butcher or a black smith does not make you an expert a wielding a halbard or a broad sword.
I said wu dip do, hoe, horsebench and they also used other weapons..and used them very well...better than the average soldier who only had the rudiments of hack and slash with the Dao.

With regard to your comments on Japanese pritates, the chinese army is less equip to deal with hit and run raides on unprotected villages
On this you are right, they could not fight very well and that is why the Shaolin monks were called in to defeat the pirates. BTW this is not a swashbuckling on the highseas fight...no, no...this battle took place on solid land.

Although the japanese steel is superior, the shaolin monks can deploy far larger numbers.
Larger numbers?!...only a few monks were sent.

It is more the case of deterence (having shaolin monks) rather than the fighting abilities which reduced the extent of pirate activity.
Actually, I believe it is recorded that the invaders were soundly defeated in combat by monks wielding staffs against steel.

My experience with southern kung fu is that it is not as complete as northern styles
Well I do both...and what you say is just not the case. In fact, the Southern systems have much more intricate and complex hand work than the Northern such as Bak Sil lum. The Southern has kicks but not as many as the northern and of course not as high...instead focusing on applicability in combat.

Perhaps you're just a lucky guy!
You bet, I had the opportunity to learn great Southern Kung fu and to also learn the northern along with Kun Tao.

he organized an underground movement that did NOT overthrow the ruling dynasty.
Actually, Wong Fei Hung joined forces with the Chinese Nationalists to overthrow the Ching Dynasty in 1911 (I am pretty sure this was the year)

he had to get the popular support from the Hun chinese which is why he is remembered today. Most of China now are Hun chinese.
China has been mostly Han Chinese for many hundreds of years.
Wong Fei Hung is revered by most of the Chinese populace, not only because he was Han but for, as I stated before, for his great martial art skills, his humanity, courage, loyalty, contributions to society etc. etc.

If spirituality is an important ingridient in fighting then wouldn't the military teach the spiritual aspects to its troops? If so and it was not taught, then perhaps it is not (important)
It is not important if all you want to do is kill...but as stated martial art is much, much more than that and thank God it is...otherwise we would all just be grunts.

That is why most kung fu styles today teach 30 to 100 forms
Simply not true.
And THIS is definitely my FINAL post regarding your unfounded statements.

GHD

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Golden Horse

"Well, I was not going to post further on this, but what the heck - one more."

and one more reply for the road.

"Totally disagree...modern case in point - Vietnam."

Not true. In fact documentaries with the vietnamese on their perspective of the war showed that they had high respect for the US grunt, the accuracy of their shots etc. The vietnamese were however prepared to take heavier casualties such as 3:1 loss to take down a US troop. Other logistical issues had the vietcong in an advantage. they were trained by the north vietnamese and supplied by the chinese. The US had to ship in the resources from 1/2 way round the world. MIG fighters were a match for US fighters so unlike the gulf war the US did not have air superiority. guided weapons were not that advance at that time such that the more nimble (and cheaper ) MIG fighters held a 1:1 kill ratio against the US jets. SAMS were also a problem for the US because ECM (electro counter measures) were in their infancy. You can see that the Vietnam war was not a military force against a peasent army. You may choose to reply!


"I said wu dip do, hoe, horsebench and they also used other weapons..and used them very well...better than the average soldier who only had the rudiments of hack and slash with the Dao."

No one fights with a Gaddam chair in a battle field. what a stupid weapon. You only see chair fights on WWF! Southern kung fu is only for show.

"On this you are right, they could not fight very well and that is why the Shaolin monks were called in to defeat the pirates. BTW this is not a swashbuckling on the highseas fight...no, no...this battle took place on solid land."

Depends on their state of combat readiness, in general they fought better then civilians. otherwise why aren't soldiers monks and monks soldiers? Some of what you say about shaolin history defies common sense.

what i'm saying is that becase the chinese cost line is so large, it is impossible even for a large army to patrol the full parameter noting that there are more pressing matters (ie barbarians) to the north. If monks have outpost in the south, it makes perfect sense to use them. afterall pirates can't deploy themselves in large enough numbers and look for soft targets to raid.


"Larger numbers?!...only a few monks were sent."

You need a continual presence. There are many groups of pirates. is not like you beat off one group and no one comes raiding again. a few monks can't patrol the coast line can they?

"Actually, I believe it is recorded that the invaders were soundly defeated in combat by monks wielding staffs against steel."

hardened wood is not so easy to chop through. If you have a group of monks with 9ft long poles, it is a difficult task even if you have swords.

"Well I do both...and what you say is just not the case. In fact, the Southern systems have much more intricate and complex hand work than the Northern such as Bak Sil lum. The Southern has kicks but not as many as the northern and of course not as high...instead focusing on applicability in combat."

northern kung fu has very few high kicks. looks like you've been learing wu shu disguized under the label of northern kung fu.

"You bet, I had the opportunity to learn great Southern Kung fu and to also learn the northern along with Kun Tao."

you're luckier than you think, with a bit of basic kung fu and wu shu you've lived the tough streets this long.


"Actually, Wong Fei Hung joined forces with the Chinese Nationalists to overthrow the Ching Dynasty in 1911 (I am pretty sure this was the year)"

armies weren't using kung fu at this time!

"China has been mostly Han Chinese for many hundreds of years.
Wong Fei Hung is revered by most of the Chinese populace, not only because he was Han but for, as I stated before, for his great martial art skills, his humanity, courage, loyalty, contributions to society etc. etc."

it's basically folk lore. put it this way the chinese have for a long time not have much to be proud about. The Chings were considered invaders, the communist were oppressive. so that leaves the nationalist - No because they were corrupt (or considered to be). thie leaves Wong Fei Hung. not because he was better, but just being an ordinary guy.

"It is not important if all you want to do is kill...but as stated martial art is much, much more than that and thank God it is...otherwise we would all just be grunts."

No it is not because you want to kill. martial arts should teach you better ways of killing if need be. The objective is combat orientated. if you want spirituality then go to a church.

"Simply not true.
And THIS is definitely my FINAL post regarding your unfounded statements."

which part have I said does not make sense?

[GeneChing]

Hasayfu is right. Kungfu is about family. Our family has spread out around the world now, even to those LA strip malls. Our ancestors keep us together. So it's nice to have a place to honor them, somewhere in the world, and it might as well be one of these reconstructed temples. People have been trying to build stuff like this since Bruce made up Han's island. Now a few such places are really open for business. Of course I'm going to support that.

I can't follow ego - too much reading for me. I can't spend THAT much time on the forum. Can you resubmit your points 100 words or less?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

GeneChing:

If kung fu is about family, then the southern kung fu family must be dysfunctional. Actually, I find it very had to percieve kung fu as being family. isn't it just a set of movements - what ever stle one is studying.

I perceive that kung fu is prone to more ancesteral acknowledgement than other forms of human endeavor probably with the exception of religion. I find it very difficult to comprehend why this is the case when kung fu should be about fighting plain and simple.

I speak to many people in economics and they do not feel compelled to visit where Adam Smith was born or the lecture hall in which he taught his subjects. Economist tend to be more focused on current events and adapting existing theories to solve real life problems.

why is it then kung fu people dwell on the past. Isn't it good enough to say that the style was developed some how or other and that having learned it, one can beat up haighly skilled fighters? Isn't this considered to be problem solving in kung fu language taking the economist analogy?

[GeneChing]

The Kung Fu family is definately disfunctional. But then, I often think all families are dysfunctional. That is the heart of sitcom. ;)

The thing about kung fu is that it aspires to a spiritual level. It's implicit in the term 'kung fu' - that's the 'fu' of it. But on a basic level, when you really start thinking about studying the art of war, it has to become spiritual, otherwise it's just killing. Even on that level, you have to either become a detached cold blooded butcher or take some refuge in the spiritual realm. Now, I've never killed anyone, not in this lifetime anyway, but I imagine that it would have a negative effect on my personality and the negativity would have to be balanced with some sort of spiritual work. Given such spiritual ramifications, a pilgrimage to the place of origin, whether real or symbolic, is fitting.

Perhaps there is no spirituality in economics, so few are interested in Adam Smith's lecture hall. It's too bad. With the current economic state of the U.S., perhaps it's spirituality that is lacking. The leaders are too detached from the commoners and are commiting crimes against the people. They have become cold blooded killers. Perhaps it's time to lead that pilgrimage to the lecture hall. After all, we need to remember who owns which acorns, yes?

[Ming Fai]

To EGO:


They were farmers and merchants as opposed to being professional fighters. In contrast northern kung fu has been and continues to be used in the chinese military.

Chinese history is filled with cases in which military discipline deteriorated and many soldiers did not train/could not fight. There's even this saying: "During Late Qing, a soldier always carried two weapons: his gun... and his Opium Pipe." If the Qing soldiers were that good, why were they defeated by the Hakka peasants of the Taiping Rebellion?


he organized an underground movement that did NOT overthrow the ruling dynasty.

Yes, but none of the underground movements did actually overthrow the Qing. The Qing's fall was more or less its' own doing.

To Gold Horse Dragon:


Actually, Wong Fei Hung joined forces with the Chinese Nationalists to overthrow the Ching Dynasty in 1911 (I am pretty sure this was the year)

Actually that wasn't Wong Fei Hung, it was his student Lam Sai Wing.


Wong Fei Hung overated!...pleaaase Chinese have built a monument and building in his Honor, he is celebrated in movies and plays adinfinitum...gee how many million Chinese revere his memory, you think this occurs for just anyone without having achieved greatness through action and character?...think you pretty much stand alone there buddy on your view of him.

Well, not really... EGO is rude and annoying, but he's got a point here. Many heroic things credited to Wong Fei Hung were actually done by Lam Sai Wing. Wong Fei Hung, although a superb martial artist, did not do any heroic deeds which can be verified. Lam Sai Wing did many good things for society but somehow his teacher got all the credit (mostly due to the movies).

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

geneching:

if you say that kung fu without the spiruitual side is just about killing and therefore should be balanced with a spiritual side, then why is it that other methods of killing which are far more lethal than kung fu does not require a spiruitual side.

take for example a pilot who drops a 2000lb guided bomb on a target. does the training to perform an effective bombing run require a level of spiritual mastery? clearly no!

I maintain that spirituality in kung fu is superflous. one should just learn the fighting aspects of kung fu. the spiritual and i'll add cultural side are "add-ons" which occurred about the time when kung fu was supersceeded by the gun for battlefield applications.

I'm not saying that spirituality and morality has no place in human endeavour. I'm saying that kung fu is not to place to find such things. there are many philospohical books from the east and west not to mention an abundent of religions to draw on these ideas.

Mingfai:

I know that Golden Horse is a f-ckun 1diot. he is supporting his arguments with myth. he draws his argument from kung fu movies.

but before you get too happy thinking that you have got my approval, I must say that you are little better. Whilst chinese kung fu is powerful, it had become obsolete in the twilight days of the Qing. Perhaps your reference to the lazy soldiers of the Qing signify that a laz soldier with a gun is far more powerful than a hard working solider at kung fu.

As for the Taiping rebellion, soliders would fight if they feel they have the support of the populace. thats been shown time and again in history.

[David Jamieson]

well despite the common useage of the term "Kungfu" it doesn't mean "martial arts".

Kungfu is achievement through effort and time. It is achievemnet to a level that surpases the mundane.

A person can attain Kungfu but in reality does not practice it. You can achieve Kungfu in Martial arts, the same as you can achieve it in painting.

So, Martial arts can defintely be practiced, but without the total union of teh whole self "Kungfu" in martial arts cannot be achieved.

It is like denying that the world is round. :)

To achieve Kungfu in anything requires the whole of your being and all of your effort to truly and with any appreciable depth, understand the true nature of that path.

So, yes, I agree you can be an excellent martial artist without any spirituality involved, but without the wholeness of yourself, including your very essence of being (or spirit if you want to call it that) you cannot achieve Kungfu.

This is only my opinion garnered through my limited personal experience. I was never one to get into the mysticism or rather over mysticism of anything. I like the cut and dried approach. But I do believe that essence of self is as of much value as is diligent practice of mechanical technique.

An artist is regarded by their ability to place themselves in their work and to have that work recognized as the artists. Without that instilled essence, you have the difference between a cheap painting on a hotel wall and a masterpiece that moves you emotionally at some level.

cheers

[Ming Fai]

I know that Golden Horse is a f-ckun 1diot. he is supporting his arguments with myth. he draws his argument from kung fu movies.

I respect Gold Horse Dragon. More than I would respect you right now anyway.


but before you get too happy thinking that you have got my approval, I must say that you are little better.

Ha! Like I would even care.


Whilst chinese kung fu is powerful, it had become obsolete in the twilight days of the Qing. Perhaps your reference to the lazy soldiers of the Qing signify that a laz soldier with a gun is far more powerful than a hard working solider at kung fu.

Look, you're the one who is ALWAYS saying that "Northern kungfu is better because it was trained by soldiers, Southern kungfu is weak because it was developed by peasants etc" and all that other crap. That just doesn't make any sense. Like there were only soldiers in North China, while there was no military based in the South. Besides, soldiers would train skills for the battlefield, which was different than techniques for self-defense on the street. Soldiers would train simple moves with spear and saber to charge at the enemy, they won't spend a lot of time on empty-handed combat. Just take a look at the military training book Wubeizhi of the Ming Dynasty, or the books from General Qi Jiguang fromthe same era. Hundreds of weapon techniques are shown in those books, while there was only a handful of empty-hand techniques. Does that mean that Northern kungfu (as it was developed by soldiers according to you) sucks at emptyhanded combat?

You're ignorant in the sense that you simplify and categorize things which you do not fully understand AND then draw silly conclusions out of it. The terms Northern and Southern kungfu does not mean "Soldier" and "Peasant", "Good" and "Bad"... it is just a geographic difference (and the boundaries are not even officially defined). Northern styles come from the North, Southern styles come from the South. AND THAT'S IT, nothing more.

There are many differences between Northern styles, and Southern styles also differ from each other. Instead of being rude and annoying, you might compare the technical aspects of styles which you favor with those from styles you find weaker, that would be very interesting. But the same ol' comment of "soldier vs peasant", saying "North is better than South" every time... what's the use? Try to behave in a mature, civilized way and discuss things with a objective attitude and technical arguments.

[Ben Gash]

OK, that article and the report it metions have totally failed to show any evidence for the existence of a southern Shaolin temple, never mind if this is it.
I agree that there is potential for great things, but why not just start up a purpose built southern kung fu research institute? Why do we need to train in a refurbished ruin under a probably false pretext? Will they then parade around acting as supreme oracles on all things kung fu as the Songshan guys now do? Will they then tear down local buildings? The whole thing just has tourist trap written all over it.
There is a great deal of quality traditional kung fu in china, the teachers just aren't that famous and you don't see them over here.

[David Jamieson]

well, you could argue the point of why you would want to train in a kwoon loaded with the trappings of Chinese mythology, burning incense, bowing, ideograms and dragons painted on the walls.

Why not train in an atmosphere that promotes a line of thinking?

I think it's good to make the old new, even if it is just an idea.

Let them fill the temple with neophytes and let Kungfu spread further into the world. Even if it rides a dragons tail of myth and wonder.

cheers

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Kung Lek:

In practical terms of self defence which is (i hope) the motivation behind you learning kung fu, the question you should ask is, does the "kung fu" in kung fu make you a better fighter?

Further more you even referred to some of these as "trappings of Chinese mythology, burning incense, bowing, ideograms and dragons painted on the walls". clearly they don't. It would be a shame if a student had to did through all these trappings to find the little fighting value in southern kung fu systems.

I would be happier to see kung fu schools throw out these "trappings" but retain the "kung fu" that makes one a better fighter. what do you think?

Ming Fa:

Not all soldiers learn basic spear and broad sword movements. clearly you have even stated that there are records of 100s of weapon techiques in your own post. Being so proficient in weapons they too would be well versed in empty hand.

if you understand weapon applications, the movements are adaptations of what you'll do with empty hand. And clearly in northern styles there are empty hand moves that duplicate what you do with a broad sword and shield.

North versus south does draw the distinction between soldier and peasent in the sense that soldiers learn northern ung fu while peasents did not generally have access to these skills. of course there are exceptions as military men do retire. they however became body guards rather than becoming farmers.

[Ming Fai]

To EGO,



Not all soldiers learn basic spear and broad sword movements. clearly you have even stated that there are records of 100s of weapon techiques in your own post. Being so proficient in weapons they too would be well versed in empty hand.

Not neccessarily, but nonetheless a very good point. I partly agree.


if you understand weapon applications, the movements are adaptations of what you'll do with empty hand. And clearly in northern styles there are empty hand moves that duplicate what you do with a broad sword and shield.

Well, Xingyi and Baji are said to be based on spear techniques, so there is truth in your assumption.


North versus south does draw the distinction between soldier and peasent in the sense that soldiers learn northern ung fu while peasents did not generally have access to these skills. of course there are exceptions as military men do retire. they however became body guards rather than becoming farmers.

I don't understand why you think that all Chinese soldiers in the past learned northern kungfu. It was a tradition in the North for farmers to train boxing styles during the cold seasons when they could not work on their land. Militia was recruited out of the peasant population, while many soldiers after leaving the military worked as farmers, this happened throughout entire China. Of course some of them would become bodyguards, but that would really have been exceptions. China was and still is a country with a majority of the people working in agriculture.

[Ben Gash]

Where does he get the idea that everyone in southern China was a farmer? Or that no northern style originated in a village? Or that every southern style did? Or that Chaina had this giant, highly trained standing army. Or that anyone values his opinion?
Chaquan-village
Bajiquan-village
Piguazhang-village
Meihua-Shaolin
Hongquan-village or shaolin (depends which one)
Paoquan-village
Taizhuquan-shaolin
Tonglong-Shaolin
Taizhuquan-shaolin
Yingjow-reputedly of military origin, but all meaningful development for past 600 years is shaolin
Taijiquan-village
Pakuazhang-village
Xingyi-similar to Yingjow Essntially village.
That's most of the famous northern styles. Not much military origin there. Armies tend to use stansardised training, you'd only have one or two styles.

[Ming Fai]

Where does he get the idea that everyone in southern China was a farmer?
Beats me...


Or that no northern style originated in a village?
No idea...


Or that every southern style did?
Dunno.


Or that China had this giant, highly trained standing army.
Which was not the case the larger part of history.


Or that anyone values his opinion?
Well, if he could give some clear views and sound theories, I would really like to hear them and learn. But most of the time he just talk bad about Southern kungfu without any logical explanation.


Chaquan-village
One version of the style's history tells that it was indeed created by a general.


Tonglong-Shaolin
Some styles say that Mantis founder Wang Lang had been a general, while other sources claim he was an ordinary civilian.


Taizhuquan-shaolin
Attributed to Song emperor Zhao Kuangyin, who used to be a general.


That's most of the famous northern styles. Not much military origin there.
Well, there was bound to be some sort of militay influence, but the same thing goes for Southern styles. So I don't understand EGO's claims at all.



Armies tend to use stansardised training, you'd only have one or two styles.
Totally agree :) .

[HuangKaiVun]

Ego's made up rhetoric about North and South has as much validity as his supposed "New Jersey" identity.

The kid doesn't even know what's next to the New Jersey Turnpike and he's proclaiming the lameness of Southern Methods - even though he himself is actually of Southern Chinese descent and is living in Australia under the name of "Kelvin Chan".

Too bad, Ego. I was in NYC last week. We could've met in person - had you flown yourself in from Australia.

[GeneChing]

take for example a pilot who drops a 2000lb guided bomb on a target. does the training to perform an effective bombing run require a level of spiritual mastery? clearly no!
I disagree on this. The bomber must reconcile his actions by either turning off (becoming a robot) or turning on (taking refuge.) Today mostly it's Stanley Milgrim's 58 unfortunately, the robot follower or nazi, take them to 58 because you're just following orders. Killing is dirty business and it leaves emotion scars. You don't have to have killed someone to know. Even if you've just really hurt someone, you know. Vengence is the way of the robot. Forgiveness is the spiritual path. As the world becomes more violent, this is the treasure that we martial artists can offer the world - the real way of the warrior - where to draw the line.


I'm not saying that spirituality and morality has no place in human endeavour. I always thought martial arts was a human endeavour. For me, it's one of the most human.

[TaoBoy]

Whilst my ever-so-brief visit to Song Shan Shao Lin Si was a wonderful experience, the place reeked of tourist $$$. Now, obviously these places need $$$ to survive and prosper but let's hope it is not at the price of the martial arts.

[GeneChing]

The same can be said for any ancient place - the Vatican, the Pyramids, even modern things like Mount Rushmore. The worst I was ever trapped as a tourist was Bodh Gaya, India, the place where Buddha was enlightened. I literally had to escape in the middle of the night through a passage that had international warnings about bandits. But I still think of it as a pilgrimage, one of my most profound in fact.

The question is not the if marital arts will be tainted by tourism. The question is if martial arts are strong enough to endure the mediocrity of the public. I say we are strong enough.

A fact that I am so frequently called upon to relate: Shaolin has a recorded history of performing for tourists that goes back 400 years - twice the age of the U.S.A. It's something to think about when grappling with these issues...

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Gene Ching:

Comeing back to your example about the "bomber". Isn't it true that no matter how he moralizes his actions, it would not detract or add any value to his training?

Your comments about shaolin temple having served tourist for over 400 years is little wonder why the general public think that kung fu came from shaolin. Although this had ensured the survival of shaolin temple, it had also misinformed the public about the history of kung fu and painted an inaccurate picture of kung fu.

I think it is good to spread the word of kung fu, but please ensure that the message is genuine.

[diego]

so, Ego...what is next to the jersey turnpike anyways?.:D

[cha kuen]

How can someone say that Wong Fei Hong is overrated? Or any old school master for that matter? No one has even see them and all we know are from stories and books.

We can only state comments on the sifus that we have seen .

kung fu books (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&)

[GeneChing]

On bombers - It's not a question of morality, it's about spiritual reconciliation for the immorality of killing. It's about personal peace of mind after an immoral deed.

On Shaolin - Shaolin serves as the symbolic origin of martial arts, mostly due to the Bodhidharma myth. But we cannot discount myths just because they might not be 'real.' In fact, there is a hyperreality to mythology since it expresses the roots of our beliefs and thus, shapes our world view. Martial skills can be traced back much further, but when and why does it elevate into martial arts? The answer lies in Bodhidharma.

On spreading the word - Everyone has their own "kungfu genuine message," mostly it's "me," "my style," and "how great I am." This is often manifested by saying "you suck," "your style sucks" and "how sucky you are." Personally, I find that kind of negativity useless for the spread of anything. For me, that message might go "find your peace in practice."

[[Censored]]

Shaolin serves as the symbolic origin of martial arts, mostly due to the Bodhidharma myth. But we cannot discount myths just because they might not be 'real.'

Which part is myth? That he came, that he brought something new, or that all CMA is born of it? Have you just said something, or is this only sophistry (no offense intended)?

[GeneChing]

A few scholars contend that Bodhidharma never existed. They cite the scant amount of actual records of him. Many scholars contest the idea of him having any connection to the martial arts. This is definately more questionable. But like I said, the historic fact of the matter doesn't matter so much as what the underlying meaning of such an assumption and its ramifications on the definition of martial arts. Who we assume to be are our originators is highly significant because it becomes implicit in all we do.

[[Censored]]

A few scholars contend that Bodhidharma never existed. They cite the scant amount of actual records of him. Many scholars contest the idea of him having any connection to the martial arts. This is definately more questionable.

Oh, you are talking lack of evidence. I thought you were talking evidence of lack. I wouldn't expect "scholars" to understand even the surface of esoteric martial arts, and I don't attach much value to uninformed opinion.

But like I said, the historic fact of the matter doesn't matter so much as what the underlying meaning of such an assumption and its ramifications on the definition of martial arts. Who we assume to be are our originators is highly significant because it becomes implicit in all we do.

If I just want to dance around in a orange unitard, the events of 600 A.D. aren't too important. OTOH, if I want to sit for 9 years and get a result, the historic facts become important, VERY important. :)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

GeneChing:

What you say still doesn't expalin why kung fu needs to concern with morality when other business of killing that is far more deadly does not.

In any case, one cannot teach another morality. It is a subjective issue that can be argued either way (what is moral and what is not).

Students of martial arts should concern only with finding good teachers who can impart good skills. It is for the students themselves to firgure out what is moral.

However I do feel that an instructor should be aware of what is / not legal in terms of the law of the land and should impart this awareness to the students. There is a distinction with what is moral and what is legal.

[guohuen]

This is really getting good. Up to this point I understand and agree with everything. Can't wait to read the next comment to see how this comes together.

[GeneChing]

c- Ancient history is always an exercise in mythology. We can present any part of history as fact, but in fact, we can never prove it so. It is determined by a preponderance of evidence but can never really be established as fact. In the last century, technology has allowed us to record facts in a way never available before, but it's a mistake to examine anything ancient with the same lens.

So whether Bodhidharma even existed or not, becomes a question like whether Noah existed or not. The facts don't exist, but our faith may, as long as we temper that faith with the understanding of the underlying morality.

ee - Wait a minute, I think you're misreading me. All killing must either engage the moral implication or turn off their humanity. I tried to convey this idea in the beginning of our dialog. However, one fascinating distinction of the East is the the notion that warriors embody the power to kill and some martial ethics. Consider the concept of Wude - the root radicals of 'wu' imply stopping the spear. Consider bushido. There's been a connection between eastern spirituality and martial arts for centuries. It's what makes Asian martial arts more special than say, boxing or wrestling. Now while similar ideas appear in the West, for the most part, we've made that Decartian split. Take the word soldier, which comes form the root solidi, a term for money (in Latin I think, but that I'd have to look up.) Already you can see the compassion turning off.

I disagree with the notion that you cannot teach morality. The finer point may be subjective - grey zones like abortion, vegetarianism, what have you - but the gross points are universal. When we fail to be teachers of morality, we fail as humans.

If we could just teach the morality, we wouldn't need the martial arts.

[[Censored]]

c- Ancient history is always an exercise in mythology. We can present any part of history as fact, but in fact, we can never prove it so. It is determined by a preponderance of evidence but can never really be established as fact. In the last century, technology has allowed us to record facts in a way never available before, but it's a mistake to examine anything ancient with the same lens.

You're running in circles. If I can prove what happened yesterday then I can prove what happened 1000 years ago.

So whether Bodhidharma even existed or not, becomes a question like whether Noah existed or not. The facts don't exist, but our faith may, as long as we temper that faith with the understanding of the underlying morality.

I don't care about Noah. Not because he's history, but because I'm not building an Ark!

I could blather on about the "true meaning of Noah", and I don't think anyone here can call bullsh*t on me. But I'm not going to do that. ;)

[David Jamieson]

You're running in circles. If I can prove what happened yesterday then I can prove what happened 1000 years ago.

no you can't by virtue of the fact that you weren't there to experience what happened. However, you were around yesterday and so it goes without saying that you could likely "prove" some of what happened "to you" yesterday.


I don't care about Noah. Not because he's history, but because I'm not building an Ark! I could blather on about the "true meaning of Noah", and I don't think anyone here can call bullsh*t on me. But I'm not going to do that.

You can't go on about Noah either, historically or otherwise except for what anyone can access in the books that are written that contain references to Noah.

Point is, take things for what they are and concentrate on what you are doing. don't hold up moot problems without in the same breath presenting a possible solution.

Nothing means anything without tangible evidence.

Kungfu, it's history, practice and methods and results are all the tangible evidence I need to know that it is worth pursuing.

cheers

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

GeneChing:

With regard to history, there is truth in saying that history is written by the winners. It is true to say that information about the past is incomplete due to the record keeping, biases and so forth. However, modern technology that has allowed us to record information in superior ways today has also allowed us to discover history with forensic precision. We no longer need to base 100% of our analysis on historical writings but can discover facts that were "unintentially" left behind.

with regard to Noah and his ark, which is a good example of a myth becasue, scientifically it is impossible to re-create the whole animal kingdom with 2 of each specise. You need to take into account the ecosystem that these animals belong in and as well as the food chain. Even today, with our technology, it would be a challenge to preserve an exisitng ecosystem and almost impoossible to terra-form a plant such as mars - which could take at least 100s of years.

In the noah example, this is what would happen when they try to repopulate the earth. 2 tigers and 2 cows. Tiger goes hungry and eats a cow..... Or cow eats seeds before they can be planted to grow crops. You get the picture.

Therefore you can conclude that Noah is a myth, a silly one at that.

With regard to morality, those warriors of the east also engage in carnage and sacking of villages. They may try to feel better about it but so what, the deeds are done. I wonder if the Japanese soldiers who sacked Nanking during WW2 were living by the Bushido code, or what were they thinking when they tourtured the allied prisoners.

My point is, eastern teachings about morality need not make you a more compasionate warrior! That's why we now have the Geneva convention. It is the law which is our guiding light should you choose to follow it and face the consequences if you don't, regardless of one's beliefs.

Morality is too much of a wishy washy idea that is prone to manipulation and post event justification. That's why I like martial arts that is taught in a way that is free of morality. When threatened you fight for survival, it never becomes a question of right or wrong.

[[Censored]]

no you can't by virtue of the fact that you weren't there to experience what happened. However, you were around yesterday and so it goes without saying that you could likely "prove" some of what happened "to you" yesterday.

Truth always goes without saying. And you've said a mouthful. :)

Point is, take things for what they are and concentrate on what you are doing. don't hold up moot problems without in the same breath presenting a possible solution.

Here's a solution: Don't attempt to display your knowledge by slandering the ancestors. :eek:

[GeneChing]

ego - If Noah is a myth, do we chuck out all the bible? The truly scientific mind does. The truly scientific mind is atheist. But that chucks out a lot of good books. Is the good book silly because of Noah?

Alternatively, we can accept it a face value for it's underlying metaphor. That's a more anthropological/sociological point of view. Not hard science, but then, we aren't vulcans, are we? Few of us have truly rigorous scientific minds. That's a hard way to think and it makes your ears too pointy. Modern thinkers have to resolve science and myth. Sagan, Jung, Campbell, they all offered alternatives. When looking at Tamo from a western standpoint, it resolves a lot of doubt.

Now, I never said that eastern teaching offered any more morality than western. In fact, there was a great book titled Zen at War a few years back that showed how major Buddhist thinkers justified the war. Certainly any philosophy can be twisted. It's the razor's edge, but just because it's hard and many fail, is no reason to abandon morality. My stance is that morality is more important - and should be implicit in martial teachings. Do you give a child a gun with no lesson on proper usage? Or do you teach that child the difference between right and wrong, then offer the gun as an option?

Self defense/survival is always the simple man's justification for martial arts. It's usually taken from a short sighted self centered attidude of "what if some one attacked me physically witha knife or something." But in the big picture, most of us aren't getting attacked like that so often (if you are, you beter rethink your life.) Self defense is really much bigger. It's defense from disease, both physical and mental. It's defense of your neighborhood, your family, your culture, from the constant ravages of an unkind world. When you start to see that, then you have to be much more proactive and morally right.

censored - When did anyone slander the ancestors? The Noah analogy was just an analogy to the point of view of Tamo. Do you really believe Tamo cut off his eyelids and tea plants sprouted? My scientific mind rejects that. But my heart is inspired by the myth, so it's important to my practice.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Do you really believe Tamo cut off his eyelids and tea plants sprouted? My scientific mind rejects that. But my heart is inspired by the myth, so it's important to my practice.

Well sai, Gene. "Xing" and "Yi", the Heart and the Mind, that is the rub!

[David Jamieson]

Here's a solution: Don't attempt to display your knowledge by slandering the ancestors

It's only slander if you say it in public, if you write it, it's libel. :D

The anscestors were slandered? Get the gun!

What r u talking about?

cheers

[yenhoi]

Maybe all the mumbo jumbo in the bible is just a long way of saying 'Noah had alot of stuff on his boat, and it rained and flooded for many days...'

Humans gotta eat too.

[GeneChing]

ej - Well, I'm studying Xingyi now, so maybe it's leaking into my posts.

kl -
It's only slander if you say it in public, if you write it, it's libel. Is that your new mantra? I like it. ;)

yh - The whole Noah myth is pretty improbable. There was that whole Search for Noah's ark thing going on for a while, sort of like the search for bigfoot. A church near Mount Ararat has a cross alledgedly carved from wood from Noah's ark and there have been some blurry pictures of an ark-like structure there. But I just used Noah as an example, there are plenty of faith-based problems in any religion. It can be really troublesome for literalists and dogmatists in the scientific age.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

GeneChing

"ego - If Noah is a myth, do we chuck out all the bible? The truly scientific mind does. The truly scientific mind is atheist. But that chucks out a lot of good books. Is the good book silly because of Noah?"

Hold your horses there! why would you assume that a truely scientific mind would chuck out the whole if only parts of it has been shown to be untrue.

Why do you assume a scientific mind would chuck out the bible anyway? Any sciuentist would know that science is emperical whereas religion is by faith. Doesn't that stand to reason that one cannot be used to argue against the other? It is thosde scientist who do not understand science and the religious teachers who do not understand the meaning of faith that argue with one another. It's like saying an apple is better than a car!

Do you know that it takes as much faith to believe there is no god as there is one god or many gods or different types of god? therefore athesism is as much a believe system as any! science cannot prove or disprove the existance of god. You're absolutely wrong in assuming a scientific mind corresponds to an atheist believe!

Furthermore if you do a bit of research about Vulcan society, they have religious beliefs, they meditate, very analytical and base their actions on reasoning. Why would you assume that Vulcans would look at the face value without further research into the context why myths are written the way they are?

If i were a Vulcan, I would say that the Noah story shows the devastation of flood and is a warning for us of the possible consequences if we do not properly manage our ecosystems.

In contrast, a Klingon (who happens to be a religious nut) might preach a dogma of interpriting the story at face value.

Yes I agree that self defence encompasses other areas. but they are beyond the context of kung fu! Chemical attacks, bio terrorism, misuse of anitbiotics that lead to the resistance of infectious diseases etc.... kung fu would do you no good. There is absolutely no way a sifu can be expert at all these preventive measures. Just as it is unreasonable to expect a sifu to be an expert in moral teachings. there are other avenues, such as universities etc.. where one can pursue these studies.

So I hope you'll let kung fu be kung fu - there are limitations, but at least one can "tick the box" that defence against hand to hand encounters or against classical weapons is covered.

[Ming Fai]

Yes I agree that self defence encompasses other areas. but they are beyond the context of kung fu! Chemical attacks, bio terrorism, misuse of anitbiotics that lead to the resistance of infectious diseases etc.... kung fu would do you no good. There is absolutely no way a sifu can be expert at all these preventive measures. Just as it is unreasonable to expect a sifu to be an expert in moral teachings. there are other avenues, such as universities etc.. where one can pursue these studies.

In the past when there were no such things as machineguns, chemical weapons etc., martial arts were the Ways of Power. A man skilled in both armed and empty-handed combat could protect his country, help the poor and oppressed... but he could also use it for malevolent purposes. That's why since ancient times, during the Warring States Period of China (403-221 BC) to be exact when the philosopher Mozi and his disciples (the first wandering heroes) roamed the realm, martial arts training and moral teachings went hand-in-hand. This was the origin of Wude: the Martial Artist' Virtue. To quote Spiderman's Uncle Ben: "With great power comes great responsibility." In Traditional Chinese martial arts, it goes even further: Virtue dominates power, not the other way around. Martial arts excellence depends a greatly on talent and physique of the practitioner. Not everyone can become a superb martial artist, but at least we can try to become a better person. A mediocre martial artist with a righteous attitude and good character will be respected despite his poor skills, while a bully with great martial skills would be despised by his peers. Of course, training martial arts will not neccessary make one a good person, just like reading the Bible does not automatically make you a good Christian. But neither would a university course on ethics. These are only methods/ways to help a person to achieve these goals, but in the end it depends on the person's own cultivation.


So I hope you'll let kung fu be kung fu - there are limitations, but at least one can "tick the box" that defence against hand to hand encounters or against classical weapons is covered.

In our modern world, the fighting aspects of kungfu become less important. Of course there's still a need to defend oneself, but why train kungfu? Just take some kickboxing class with some wrestling and you'll kick but all over town. You don't need kungfu just for selfdefence, there are much faster ways. But the beauty of traditional Chinese martial arts lies within its' combination of martial and moral teachings: while the need of fighting diminishes, the need for character development remains high. Ego, you say that we must let kungfu be kungfu, but you are the one who is trying to change kungfu. Kungfu has always been Martial arts PLUS Moral teachings. If we abandon the ethics, warrior code etc. we will surely lose a great amount of wisdom.

So please, let Kungfu be Kungfu...

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ming Fa

If moral teaching did indeed play such a large role in kung fu, why is it then kung fu tournaments only focus on the physical aspects. You cannot win a gold medal for taking part in a debate on morality against other schools because such events don't even exist.

Kung fu players love to concentrate on the physical, self defence stuff - which is fine and good only if one remains consisent in comparing all other forms of hand to hand combat according to this yard stick. Some kung fu players however claim that their styles contains "morality teachings" when asked to compare against other styles they feel have a harder edge - like kick boxing.

Is it the case of if you can't beat them in physical combat, you hold out an olive branch and hope for peace?

[yenhoi]

Are you seriously trying to say all martial arts in china were taught under the same moral and virture and wisdom randomness for all time, until now?

Cmon Ming Fai.

[Ming Fai]

To EGO:


If moral teaching did indeed play such a large role in kung fu, why is it then kung fu tournaments only focus on the physical aspects. You cannot win a gold medal for taking part in a debate on morality against other schools because such events don't even exist.

True, but the point is moral teachings should develop the right attitude of those who fight in tournaments: instead of badmouthing the opponent, rude behaviour, breaking the rules... we could also respect the other contestants and engage in combat with a attitude of "May the best man win". It's not competition that counts, but participation and experience, to test your skills and learn from others.

To yenhoi:


Are you seriously trying to say all martial arts in china were taught under the same moral and virture and wisdom randomness for all time, until now?

No, I'm not saying that. This is what I believe to be correct, things which I believe in. You can choose to believe in other things, it's up to you. Many masters of the past were bound to have only concentrated on fighting and killing, that's fine with me.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ming Fa

Then what about boxing or BJJ or UFC. sure the contest are brutal for an on looker but it is participated by consneting adults who may have the "may the best man win attitude". Moving outside contact sports, say in a game of squash tournament, one can also adopt the same attitude.

If kung fu espouses morality, one would be expecting that it'll go beyond what you see in other activities anyway - which is called good sports manship. Is that all kung fu morality is about - good sportsmanship?

Your reply to Yenhoi shows that masters of kung fu can be immoral. Doesn't this contradicts what you said earlier on that kung fu contains morality. If that were so, then those very efficient killers you speak of cannot be considered masters. If they are not masters then what are they?

If they had learned CLF and can fight very well with their style but are bad to the core, then doesn't is show that one can learn chinese fighting styles without the moral teachings. You reference to history seems to suggest that.

[GeneChing]

Fair enough - I should have said agnostic, not atheist. My bad. I concede that fact, but persist with the point. Faith and science are at odds. True, the throw out the whole bible just because of Noah would be extreme, but being a martial arts forum, we have a tendancy of extrremity - take the ancestors slander bit on the last page. Anyway, my point is that even if Tamo wasn't real, that doesn't invalidate the myth, the metaphor and most important, the teachings. The same goes for the bible.

As for the vulcan/klingon tangent, I worked on this. (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/b-pw001.html) - only a little mind you (the forward and the cover - it was a paid job and when you make you rliving in the martial arts like I do, you take such jobs.) Vulcans and Klingons have evolved a lot in the series. Didn't Roddenberry once write "Klingons **** in airlocks"? Now would Worf do that to Picard? I miss those Kilngons. Of course, I'd take T'pol over Spock anyday...

The Sifu of old is quite the renaissance man,, so a moral underpinning is expected. Of course, few real people meet up to the myth, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to goodness. In my mind, all teachers, whether it be teachers of kung fu, music, math, or tantric sex, should teach a moral underpinning. Knowledge is power, and power should be guided by wisdom.

[David Jamieson]

mmmmm, T'Pol.

The singular reason I watch enterprise religiously :D

heh heh, I hope I don't get burned if my wife reads this. hahahaha.

cheers

[Ming Fai]

If kung fu espouses morality, one would be expecting that it'll go beyond what you see in other activities anyway - which is called good sports manship. Is that all kung fu morality is about - good sportsmanship?

That's what I'm trying to say, but good sportmanship is the least we can do as a martial artist.


Your reply to Yenhoi shows that masters of kung fu can be immoral. Doesn't this contradicts what you said earlier on that kung fu contains morality. If that were so, then those very efficient killers you speak of cannot be considered masters. If they are not masters then what are they?

OK OK, I should have said "very skilled fighters" instead of masters, my bad. But it does not contradict with what I said earlier, I already mentioned: "training martial arts will not neccessary make one a good person, just like reading the Bible does not automatically make you a good Christian. But neither would a university course on ethics. These are only methods/ways to help a person to achieve these goals, but in the end it depends on the person's own cultivation."


If they had learned CLF and can fight very well with their style but are bad to the core, then doesn't is show that one can learn chinese fighting styles without the moral teachings. You reference to history seems to suggest that.

Of course that's possible, I just don't think it is something one must pursue and encourage. I agree with Gene's last post.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Geneching:

I don't think science and faith are at odds. Science provides answers to the what, where and how. It does not provide answers to the meaning of existance. Take a simple example of a poem (any poem) it's meaning is more than what the chemical composition of the paper, or ink can provide. correct? science cannot explain the meaning within the verses eventhough it can explain the physical make up in terms of its molecules and componds the paper and ink was made of and even carbon date it to the time when it was written or verify it's authenticity. Nevertheless meaning exist when a poet reads it but its beyond the reach of science.

However, the poet who has them meaning cannot decompose the physical attributes of the paper, ink etc.... that is in the realm of science. Accordingly what is physical and meta-physical runs parallel rather than being at odds with one another. This was what I was saying before in short form.

Personally my favourite vulcan is the vulcan chic in Star Trek II - the wrath of Khan. Should have more of the likes of her. If I were the captain of the Enterprise, I would find her so much more persuasive. Probably would let her play captain from time to time.

Going one more step on the Star Trek theme, what about the Borg? Is it possible to be amoral as opposed to being moral or immoral. To them morality is not an issue - assimilation is a matter of survival for that specise. If one has to fights to survive and kills out of instinct wouldn't that fall under the catagory of amoral? What has kung fu teaching got to say about that?

MingFa,

I agree, good sportsmanship is just the beginning of "morality". What brings back the question as to wht (in tournamnets) do students only need to demonstrate the least when it comes to morality and physical fighting ability at the most?

If morality in kung fu did play such a large part, wouldn't there have been tournaments that resemble say a question and answer session on how the student respond to statements about the affairs of this world such as global warming, depletion of fish stock, conservation of the Kakapo parrot in New Zealand, funding for space exploration and terrorism?

Taking your response to the last comment, would it not be a waste of time for a moral person who wants to learn kung fu for self defence to have to go through all the moral teaching before getting to the physical bits?

Given that you agree that the physical and the "spiritual" can be separated such that achievement of one is independent of the other, how have sifu's steered the students to what they need most?

[GeneChing]

Science and Faith can coexist harmoniously until you get to the big questions, the ones that really matter - stuff origins (getting back to the origin of this thread, perhaps) and meaning. Obviously it has to coexist with some degree of harmony or most of us here would be insane. Well, wait a minute, most of us... oh nevermind.

Actually your borg point of amoral vs. immoral is well taken. Many gun enthusiastics often cite that guns are not evil, it's the people that use them. Nature is cruel, amoral, but is it evil? Now the borg is a symbol of the machine, ultimately amoral. Is it evil? I guess it's a matter of perspective. Most of us accept the cruelty of nature, but we are still adjusting to the cruelty of the machine. Anyway, I still stand by my point that martial arts teachers, or any teachers, should propound morality. Otherwise, what are we in it for?

As for the Wrath of Khan vulcan, Saavik, she went on to replace Shelley Long in Cheers, then to sell stuff at Cost Plus. I think she had a comedy series as a lingerie designer, or something like that. That kinda lost my interest over the years. Hopefully Jolene Blalock will have a better future. She's been doing spreads in Men's mags and is one step away from a nude spread if Paramount doesn't have under some kind of binding contract. Nude vulcans? Fascinating.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Gene Ching:

You asked a very good question, what are we in it for? so far from discussions with you and others on this forum, I would say there are probably more perceptions of kung fu then there are kung fu styles.

I don't disagree that morality is an important issue, but it involves a higher level of reasoning that in the midst of self defence it is non existant. Your actions may be considered amoral but this may not have anything to do with whether it is legal or illigal. what do you think?

You sure know your star trek history well. are you sure you just did the "front and back cover" as opposed to cover to cover? I think star trek is losing its bite. sure it was a good thing they brought in Seven of Nine. I much prefer the series Andromeda. It's less sterotypical of how machines try to be humans - the episode The Mathemathics of Tears is a good contrast against Data. The guest star was also very very talented much like Seven of Nine is.

[Ming Fai]

To EGO:


What brings back the question as to wht (in tournamnets) do students only need to demonstrate the least when it comes to morality and physical fighting ability at the most? If morality in kung fu did play such a large part, wouldn't there have been tournaments that resemble say a question and answer session on how the student respond to statements about the affairs of this world such as global warming, depletion of fish stock, conservation of the Kakapo parrot in New Zealand, funding for space exploration and terrorism?

Well, the thing is: in a fight, you can easily see who is victorious, but in a debate on ethics no one knows who is the winner. Even if you can convince everyone with your words, it doesn't make you a morally better person, you might just be very eloquent.


Taking your response to the last comment, would it not be a waste of time for a moral person who wants to learn kung fu for self defence to have to go through all the moral teaching before getting to the physical bits?

Two possibilities:
1. The moral person would be attracted to the moral teachings immediately because he/she feels an affinity with these ideas.
2. The person would waste time, he/she should talk to the instructor about his/her needs OR should consider switching to another style/school which concentrate solely self-defence.

But this brings us to more questions: What is a MORAL person like? Who can be considered moral? What are the criteria? And who are we to decide about someone's morality?

But to return to the aspect of self-defence: if that's your goal then of course you should learn practical things instead of wasting time on ethics. But self-defence is not the same as martial arts. Self-defence is only one aspect of kungfu. If you only want to learn to defend yourself, do not waste time on philosophy and ethics. Don't train forms. Do not participate in competitions. Heck, don't train in kungfu! Just take up kickboxing and jujitsu and concentrate on hard-core self-defence.

But if you want to become a martial artist, well, that's a whole other story. I just can't imagine kungfu without forms, philosophy, ethics (competitions are not really necessary IMO)... But of course, you also have to know how to fight. Martial art without fighting skills is not a martial art, if you train kungfu but you can't fight the kungfu way, then it is not good kungfu.


Given that you agree that the physical and the "spiritual" can be separated such that achievement of one is independent of the other, how have sifu's steered the students to what they need most?

I can only give my own personal experience: when I was a kid, I always got into trouble. I was the only Chinese kid in my neighbourhood, and I always got into fights. One day I got beaten up so bad, police got involved and everything... I then decided to train kungfu so I would kick everybody's ass. That was my only intention. My first teachers did not teach me anything ethical, only physical aspects. But through the physical training my way of thinking also started to change: "Why should I train so hard only to hurt other people? That's not worth it. I should train hard to better myself." My last two sifu's do teach me ethics, but in a very down-to-earth way: Work hard, be kind and respect your fellow man. I do not consider myself to be a very good person, far from that, but martial arts training did help me to develop in a good way and made me become a better person than I was before. Sounds corny, huh? :)

[GeneChing]

Does perception of a style make a style? I can think of a lot of MA who think their doing something (when really it's crap ;) ) But definately there are a lot of different perceptions. I think this is a result of having an 'art' that has a highly practical function that is almost never used by the bulk of its practitioners.

As for the morality in combat, well, once you're in combat, there are no rules. But hopefully people don't enter that zone until the last resort. Hopefully, that combat zone is couched between good judgement and right action. That's the morality I speak of and I think it's a critical part of it all. Be good people.

It's funny, I had a big disagreement with one of my Sifus about this. He believed that the art would, through it's hardship, naturally weed out the bad elements. I don't think he really understood bad elements, so he openly taught anyone. Bad elements can be tenacious. So it's up to the teachers to do some weeding, now and then. Support the good, vanquish the evil. Sure, these are subjective measures, but we got to do what we can.

The maching vs. human metaphor is Star Trek's forte. You can see a direct evolution - Spock (the original) to Data (the nerd) to 7 of 9 (the nerd's sexual fantasy) skip deep space (becuase that didn't really fly) to T'pol (a very sexy spock.) I though last night's episode on T'pol's vulcan aids was great, so to me, they still got it. Although I didn't like the notion that mind melding was genetic (ala the meta-whatever-rons behind the force in star wars.) I'm still hoping that T'pol figures out how to mind meld. Also the metaphor between mind melding and gays was hilarious, especially when you think back to old Spock.

[Serpent]

Midichlorians. Oohhhhh don't get me started!

:mad:

[GeneChing]

What's the problem Serpent? Can't find a good rhyme with it? Don't get your silks in a bunch now.;)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ming Fa:

In your response to the debate about ethics, how about this. As long as the debate sets the mind of the audience and the participants thinking about difficult issues where there is no such a thing as a universal right or wrong, everyone has won to a certain degree.

I see your point about the differences you percieve between kung fu and other stlyes which I throughly respect. On the issue of forms which is an aspect of training that is not pertaining to morality, would you not think it should be discarded because you feel that it does not add to self defence?

Geneching:

Ok the 'big question' where you say science and religion might differ. say there is this religion that believes there is only one God whose name is Bllah who created life in 7 days and rested on the 8th. The religion also tells his believers to go on a holy rampage against non believers resulting in wonton property distruction. Now an evolutionary scientist who has scientific evidence that the earth was 4 billion years old had a potato stuck up the exhaust of his car by one of the religous zealots for daring to propose the idea. The scientist was furious.

Some would say that it is a conflict between science and religion but I say not. The issue here is infringing on another's rights which need not have nay thing to do with religion. Could have been a street punk or a forum troll and the scientist would still be furious.

I agree bad elements can be tenacious. successful criminals can be very intelligent people. they may also be quite gifted in kung fu. Like I said earlier, morality is independent of fighting skills.

I tend to find star trek steotyping alien races. For example the vulcan is clearly analytical, the Klingon - hardened warriors, the Farangi- pure capatilist etc. all of them express a facit of human nature to the extreme. Humans as a result appear to be the most balanced creatures.

It is interesting that for all the imagination about warp drive and interstellar travel, we still put ourselves "in the centre of the universe" or should I say "as ego maximus"?

[GeneChing]

Ultimately both religion and science are on the same quest - the search for truth. The conflict arises from spiritual vs. analytical. Some people can resolve it for their individual personalities but that can only be done with internal compromise. Not that this is a bad thing, it is just so.

The freedom of inquiry is a completely different issue. Both science and religion can be fairly dogmatic. Science may deny this, but episodes like piltdown man continue to support the attachment of science to the dominant paradigm.

Morality is independant of fighting skills, but that's only because good people do nothing. Therein lies the real problem of being a true warrior today.

Star Trek has always been a metaphor for racism. By characaturing differences as aliens, they can examine human nature. Alien Nation tried to do the same thing but more literally. We're a little to emic to do much else. I suppose Planet of the Apes was closer in that regard. It would be hard to really do something more alien, more Lovecraftian perhaps.