Tkd

[votex]

I am in TKD and I would like to hear people's thoughts about it. I would like to dismiss any incorrect info about it that I can.

[SevenStar]

I think there is a lot of sucky tkd out there, but that applies to pretty much all styles. All in all, I have no qualm with it, because I don't think there are bad styles, only people who don't train properly.

what are you training in? ata, wtf, etc.

[votex]

I pretty sure it's called (I'm going to misspell it) Chuda-Kwon-Do. A pretty traditional style of the art which means there isn't much flashy stuff. The flashest moves are the jump side kick and the tornado kick.

[rogue]

Fellow TKD guy here, Odo kwan. If your lucky enough to find someone who trained at the old original TKD schools in Hong Kong and Vietnam you'll see a style that looks very different from modern ITF and nothing like WTF and not even in the same universe as the ATA. What my master told me was that the Koreans were trying to take the Japanese karate they knew and improve it to beat Japanese karateka. IMO they eventually went too far and screwed it up.

[Ming Yue]

I studied TKD for five years and have just recently begun studying Kung Fu. I enjoyed TKD at the time, but even in the short time I've been studying Kung Fu, I see it as a much deeper and rounded art - much more complete. I think TKD can be too structured and does not allow for enough intuitive response - especially in sparring and partially because it is most often point sparring. I think I'm in for quite a schooling when it comes time for me to start sparring in my Kung Fu class. :D

Watch out for TKD systems that don't cover areas like grappling, seizing/controlling, pressure point manipulation, or joint locks. Don't expect to get this early in your training, but it should be in there at some point. A lot of this is left out of modern american-influenced TKD. Ask your Kwanganim if these areas are covered or if complementary styles are incorporated (like Hapkido, for example) I know I wish I had gotten more groundwork training...

IMHO, a lot of the more commercial TKD schools have degraded into kind of day care "improve your child's self confidence" type schools. The focus shifts away from the warrior art to keep the doors open and bring in the money, and that has given the few schools that teach TKD as a rounded system a bad rap.

My advice would be to jump in with both feet. Take in everything you're given and try to be creative with it. Ask questions, read books, practice your head off.

-C

[votex]

I have to agree with Ming Yue. I have not studied kung fu yet but only because there aren't any shcools in my area. Most TKD schools have been deluted to fancy stuff that will get you killed on the streets. We may not cover grappling directly ( the little bit we do) it is in our forms and we cover stuff you will use on the streets. As we learn the forms we also learn the applications of each move.

In the 20 or 30 years that my instructor has been teaching he has turned out 20 some odd BB. Which in this area is rare considering that there are 5 year olds that are running around with BB. A TKD school that it takes a year or two to get a BB most likely cr@p. Btw my instructor has turned out the"Best fighter of Texas. Before I get yelled at by a bunch of people let me explain that (1) that was taken from an artical that I read. He was the best fighter in AOK and TKO state tournaments.

(2)It should take about 5 years at the min. but most likely more than that. According to some schools you learn your form for that belat and you don't have to do it again unless you are testing to be your instructor's asst. You should have to do all the forms your belt requires you to know and you should do your first form the most. My Instructor tries (for the adults) to get us involved in more than just MA.

[TkdWarrior]

fellow Tkdist here... :)
well i belong to traditionalist group of TKD :D rather than olympic sparring... n my teacher is quite rare to say(doh it took me 2 yrs to find a guy like him n he was teaching just close to my place :D)
otherwise News in TKD is as usual sucky :(...
well latest BB in my class took 8 yrs to get BB n before that he spent 5 yrs in shotakan, other two of them took around 8-9 yrs too... and it's very rare that someone gets BB under my teacher in less than 5 yrs(because there's no one)...we do hav kids(only one in my class) and they r not treated like kids, if we r supposed to do 50 pushups they'll hav to do too(not 50 but if they try to close it they'll always be appreciated)

-TkdWarrior-

[Ming Yue]

Well, I think if you want to be a good rounded fighter you should try to supplement your TKD training yourself. Get some books or videos and a training partner and start working it in.

Sounds like TKDwarrior has found a good school, but I maintain that TKD is just not a street fighting art. One of its original intentions, I think, (somebody slap me around if this is way wrong) was to deal with mounted soldiers - consider the higher stances, the amount of running/jumping kicks and even notice how the strikes and blocks are performed considerably far from the body when compared to other styles.

It's a "get in-hit-get out" style, and it is pretty much taught for the purpose of regulated competition.

_________________
http://www.curious3d.com

[TKD]

Hi, I'm actually here to research Kung Fu for an upcoming tournament but I thought I'd post here to. As you can probably tell by my user name I take Tae Kwon Do(ITF). And I have no experience with other TKD schools(took karate for 2 1/2 years). My instructor not only teaches Tae Kwon Do but also incorporates Brazilian Jiu Jitsu(as he is also a black belt in that).
Even though I am a Tae Kwon "Doist" I have to agree with most people, from most of what I have heard and read, many TKD instructors are not very well versed in grappling. While TKD might have had grappling at it's advent it sadly has very little now. I personally am happy to see many instructors supplementing grappling from other arts in their TKD teaching. And, if you are lucky enough to study TKD under someone who also teaches you grappling I would say you have just as valid a Martial art as anyone else. However, If you are not so blessed you probably should look into books, movies or another martial art to supplement your Tae Kwon Do.

TKD:)

[Robinf]

Ming Yue,

<slap>

I've heard those stories myself and I believe they come from people who've never spent any time actually studying or practicing TKD.

I'm not going to say TKD is the end all be all of martial arts. No art is. But, if you truly study and practice it at a good school, TKD is as effective for street fighting as any stand up art.

That said, I've only been studying TKD for 9 years, so I'm really no expert in what I'm saying, but in the hands of the right teachers, TKD will serve the student fine.

The running/jumping kicks are for spirit not for taking out mounted soldiers. Martial arts are a well-rounded study--they train the body, the mind and the spirit.

Breaking down the running/jumping kicks, elements used in them are used in every day life/health as well as self-defense, not to mention the discipline it takes to work on these. Put it all together and you get the spirited ("flashy") flying sidekick and tornado kick among others.

That's my theory.

Robin

[Ming Yue]

I didn't phrase my post very well, perhaps, but upon re-consideration....I had heard that the early korean militia was known for it's ground troops being able to handle mounted armies very well -- not so much that any of the techniques were developed specifically for that purpose, but as a consideration that that could have influenced the development of the art. I still think TKD has it's shortcomings on the street compared to other styles, however.

I'm going to take the thread in a different direction here, but I have noted a disparity in the TKD definition of "spirit" and i'm interested to hear your thoughts.

When you say the flying kicks are for "spirit", I read this to mean more like "enthusiasm" than internal force (ki, chi, qi...). In my TKD training I have noted that the term "spirit" has been defined and referred to both ways.... How do you define "Spirit" in the sense of your TKD experience?

[TKD]

I define spirit, like this. The hopes and aspirations of the student as well as their attitude toward what they are doing. If the student has no "spirit" meaning, hope, aspirations, and a bad attitude, they will not perform as well as someone who likes what they are doing and really wants to learn the art.

[votex]

Ming Yue is correct about TKD starting as Korean militia known for it's ground troops being able to handle mounted armies very well, but it evolved when they no longer had to worry about the mounted troops. Yes it still contains the high kicks and jump kicks which on the streets would be almost compleatly usless. If used properly it is just as effictive as any other MA. The prob. is that most people don't use thier heads.

As for the "spirit" you will never use Ki or chi or whatever you call it in a real fight any way so what is the point? I think of "spirit" as willpower instead of personal power. You will never get the chance to "draw your power" because fights move to fast.

[Ming Yue]

Ain't nothing wrong with a nice hook kick to the back of the head or a round kick to the jaw in a fight -- if you land it. ;)

[rogue]

Ming Yue is correct about TKD starting as Korean militia known for it's ground troops being able to handle mounted armies very well, but it evolved when they no longer had to worry about the mounted troops.

No,no,no!!! TKD is a name that was given to the various arts that were based on Japanese karate, mostly Shotokan. This happened after WWII after the end of the Japense occupation. The 1950's and early 60's were the golden age of the Korean arts not some long ago time. And I doubt that anybody ever used a jump kick to knock an armed calvery man off a horse.:rolleyes:

Hey Robin, how've you been?

[ricksitterly]

I agree with what a lot of people say about the watered down state of tkd in the US. Many traditionalists would say that Korea is the only place to learn real tkd training, and point out Korea's tendency to dominate international competition. There was a fighter a few years ago who won the NY state competition, US national competition, then went to Korea and got a lot of his ribs broken. Seeing how they founded the art, it only makes sense that they have preserved its essence better than we have.

Anyways, many martial arts (in general) that make their way to the US, have a reputation of being commercialized and watered down. Fortunately, unlike some other arts, we tkd people have tournament unions such as the USTU, which are pretty good at sorting out tae kwon do from tae-crap-do. If you have a school that is producing national USTU competitors, you are probably doing something right. I'm sure you all have tournament organizations in your fighting styles - but i'm just talking about tkd right now. There are other tkd tournament organizations, such as the AAU, but USTU has the toughest reputation and you see the difference when you go to the tournaments. Not to say that these fighters are up to Korean standards, but the USTU helps to eliminate the "McDonalds" quality tkd schools ( from even entering). Where is this going? I dont know... I kinda have to pee right now so I'm in a hurry. Basically that tournaments help raise the standard for tkd schools. Overall though, something as widespread as tkd should be in much better shape by now. The bast teachers and practitioners I've seen have been from Korea.

Some tkd schools claim to be more focused on the moral values and family benefits of tkd training, not focused on competing. These people should go start some kind of YMCA family picnic club and leave TKD out of it. It's a money scam, and most of their tkd students would get their a$ses handed to them in a fight.

I've trained at many different schools, and have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly. That's another thing common in tkd, people switching schools a lot...no loyalty. After all, it's hard to respect a master who, for a certain amount of money, will give you a black belt in under two years and is more aggressive at collecting bills and fees than most insurance companies.

Some people argue that tkd doesnt produce good grapplers... well of coarse it doesnt! Just like bjj is a great grappling art, but will not, by itself, produce a fighter with good punches and kicks. If you want to be a well rounded fighter, you can either try to seek out a "complete style", or simply cross train in different styles. Living in these times, we have the luxury of being able to do that.

[UltimateFighter]

Lets cut to the chase. TKD (and this covers the majority of branches) is not a good base for fighting for the following reasons:

1/. Totally lacks grappling/groundfighting.

2/. As a striking art, focuses 30% punches, 70% kicks. This is the wrong way round (even 30% kicks is too high).

3/. Unable to strike from close range. Very basic with the hands and ineffective jumping/spinning attacks used.

Without trying to put the art down, it can be good for fitness, flexibility, and it has a few effective kicking techniques but for self defence it is a poor choice. If you want to be an effective striker you are best off choosing Muay Thai/boxing/wing chun and learning some takedown defences/ground fighting.

[Surferdude]

I study a TKD and karate mix so it I dont have a name for it all I can say is that it's cool and I love it!!!!!!!!:D ;) :cool:

[TKD]

First of all UltimateFighter, have you ever done Tae Kwon Do?

Sure there are a few useless kicks such as the reverse turning kick(post on the kung fu forum). But 90% of the kicks are extremely useful and powerful.

As to your saying "ineffective jumping and spinning attacks" I don't know where you get this, have you ever hit anyone with a jumping back kick or 360 hook kick?

As to " totally lacks grappling/groundfighting", this is mostly untrue nowadays, as most instructors are well versed in other arts that have good grappling techniques.

Also, what is your reasoning for stating that more kicks and less hand techniques is the "wrong way round"? Who's to say that more hand techniques and less kicking isn't the "wrong way round"?

Your opinions are obviously based on bad technique or you have never taken Tae Kwon Do.

[Surferdude]

Yea, Besides Taekwondo is very good whats wrong with 70% of kicks Thunder leg in drunken master used it and could beat master Wong!!!!:D :p
But besides that, your legs are longer than your arms so you could keep your opponent away easily.

[TkdWarrior]

Originally posted by Surferdude

But besides that, your legs are longer than your arms so you could keep your opponent away easily.
provided u know how to use it rite way... :)

UltimateFighter wat u said is very true but it restricts to olympic TKD only. beyond that u'll know TKD is good at all ranges...
tho some guys don't do ground work but most of them will be good enuff for stand up grappling
hell for once one of Aikido teacher blamed us for stealing his techniques because we were doing lots of locking/grabbing which looked like aikido. when we show him lot other which we hav learnt he got a little calm down but kept saying u stole our techniques...
-TkdWarrior-

[votex]

UltimateFighter have you ever been hit by a side kick or roundhouse in the leg? It would break like it was nothing. How about a kick to the groin? That hurts like crap. As for not using your hands enough that's not true at all you use a about 50/50. You start off learning to use your hands in TKD and one you get that down then you get to the kicks. Most people use their legs more often because they do the most damage and the longer reach. If you are going to bash something at least get the facts right before you make a fool out of yourself.

[Robinf]

from Ultimatefighter
3/. Unable to strike from close range. Very basic with the hands and ineffective jumping/spinning attacks used.

Sounds like you only have experience with sport sparring TKD. Actual tkd uses mid range kicks, if any kicks at all, also uses grabs, joint locks, take downs, and plenty of other hand techniques.

What happens in many schools is that they focus on sport tkd rather than the actual martial art.

Robin

[Vapour]

Good mate of mine practice TKD (Not WTF). TKD being recognised as Olympic sport is probably the worst thing happen to TKD. If you watch Olymic TKD you can see why.

I don't really buy that TKD can trace their origin to taekwon. The smiliarity between TKD and karate is too close to be a coincidence not to mention the fact that the guy who invented it did study karate plus he claim no lineage of traditional korean school. But this doesn't mean TKD is worse than karate.

Though it is true that leg is far more powerful and longer than arm, once holding and grapling is allowed it effectiveness is severly reduced. In real fight most kick is low kick aimed at legs. If one only done sporting side of TKD he won't be able to use fist because his punch has no power and it's likely to break when used without protection. But then, there are some genuine school of TKD which teach how to punch properly. But because TKD is now a Olympic sports, availability of such school are becoming less and less.:(

[votex]

I believe that's what is wrong whith most schools today not just TKD but almost all stlyes in general. They(the people running the schools) no longer teaching self-defense but are in it for the money and when that happens it starts to look like cr@p. How are you going to defend yourself if you don't know the basics or how the moves are supposed to look like and what they are used for?