Baji and Ba Kwa- what's the attraction?

[carly]

These two styles, baji and eight trigram boxing, seem to have a fanatical following. Anyone know the reason for this?

[Stacey]

ba gua is cool. There is a lot of it in 8 step.

Ba Ji, I don't know. I have never seen a school of either one. I wouldn't say they have a fanatical following.

Most ba gua places are taught by videotape tai chi teachers who do healing hands meditation and such.

ba ji? I've only heard of Su Yu Tsang and his associates in Canada and Alaska doing this. I've never seen it. It looks to me like kung fu with loads of stance work and finite waist movement. Basically its just done the hard way and so it works. Thats my 2 cents. I havent seen anything done in it that I havent seen in 8 step body contacts, but what do I know?

[count]

Stop by anytime you're in LA and try it out for yourself. You can see some hardcore piqua training going on too. ;) I don't think it's a question of fanaticism. People just look for things that are proven over time to be useful.

[iron thread]

Baji and bagua are both arts famous for bodyguard services. They were both training requirements for imperial guards of the Ching Dynasty. There was a fight between a top xingyi practitioner and the person who first revealed bagua. I'm not sure of the battle result, but I think it was a tie. The two masters then agreed that their students would have to learn from both masters. My point is bagua was able to gain its glory even though xingyi was very popular. Baji was part of Mao Tze Dong's secret service training.

They are both very effective arts, and generated many famous practitioners. I'm guessing people don't like to argue with results.

[The Willow Sword]

These two styles, baji and eight trigram boxing, seem to have a fanatical following. Anyone know the reason for this?

The fanatasism that you see is the result of a cult mindset that permeates the CMA world in america. They seem to believe in this "mysticism" and magic contained within the styles. Most New agers will b@stardize it and pervert the above mentioned arts for monetary gain and "showmanship".
However there are a few places still around that take them traditionally "serious" and independants that walk the "circle" in a good way.

MRTWS

[SevenStar]

From what I've seen of baji, there's alot of power in it. Didn't think it had a fanatical following though

[TjD]

wasnt there some crazy baji person who posted on here about some baji army? :D

[Xebsball]

LOL yeah, Asia and his Baji Zombies army :D

Both Baji and Bagua seem really cool.
From the little ive seen i like the way Baji uses their power, i think it has someothing in common with Xing Yi maybe.

[Waidan]

I don't think I'd say I'm "fanatical" about bagua, but I sure do like it. Fast, practical footwork, lots of chin na applications, and a strong striking element. I don't know if it's the "best" art out there, but I have yet to see better.

Baji seems very cool, and (as mentioned) quite a bit like xingyi. I dig xingyi and practice the 5 fists regularly, so I hope to see some quality baji some day to compare and contrast.

[omarthefish]

BAJI ! has a fanatical following because once you've tasted the AWSOME power of BAJI ! you'll never go back. :eek:

Though it is often compared to Hsing-yi we - er- - it is a different animal entirely. It is a hard style. And for many of us, unapologetically so. Although there are some Baji apologists out there claiming that at the higher levels the famous stomping is reduced and a softer side is revealed, I say , "BAH ! Puny humans !"

In my mind there are basically 4 levels of Chinese gong-fu.

[pc mode shutting down now] (that's politically correct not personal computer)

1. The true internal arts - Bagua, Hsing-yi, Taiji and a few other lesser known styles.

2. Baji and perhaps Mizongquan - The hybrids. Not truly internal. There may be a few out ther but not many. I'm tempted to put Shuai Jiao here but I don't know enough about it's methods.

3. Shaolin and it's offshoots

4. Pure external arts like Sanda and the like.

I've had experience with a lot of styles and Baji really does seem to have something a bit unique.

Did i mention POWER !?!

Bagua has this tendancy more because it appeals to our craving for something mysterious and esoteric. It's sort of like taijquan for non-hippies. Most bagua people think they actually can fight or even want to. It's internal and mysteriuos yet fiercome and dangerous.

The other nice thing about Bagua is it gives you an excuse to study not only the Tao Te Jing but also the Yi-jing and chinese alchemy and any other secret taoist practices you can think of.

(I should confess I am a 'fanatic' for both of these arts)

[Daredevil]

The fanatasism that you see is the result of a cult mindset that permeates the CMA world in america. They seem to believe in this "mysticism" and magic contained within the styles. Most New agers will b@stardize it and pervert the above mentioned arts for monetary gain and "showmanship".

Well, I'm not from America, but ...

There is very little mysticism in Baji. Don't want to sound offensive, but that is a very ignorant comment. It is actually a very no-nonsense style in a very traditional manner.

As for omarthefish's comments ... I wouldn't say Baji is entirely, but it is harder. My says Taiji is 7 parts soft and 3 parts hard, while Baji is 7 parts hard and 3 parts soft. The internal vs. external stuff has been debated before and I'll withhold from commenting until a more universal and generally accepted paradigm of defining internal is introduced. Whatever though, this theory or debate doesn't remove the essence of Baji. That is, of course, it's use of power.

I'm a fanatic for Baji, but that's because I practise it under the best teacher I've personally ever met. That's enough for me.

[WanderingMonk]

Baji is a very effective art and it had a collection of dedicated practioners. Its more recent "fanatical followings" has something to do with with a Japanese comic series. It is called "Quan Er" in Mandrian, don't know about the Japanese name.

Anyways, it is about a teenager trying to find his grandfather and using his baji skills to get him out of jams. It popularized Baji in Japan and the popularity have spread to Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc.

A Baji Master (Liu Yun Chiao) had set up the WuTan School (not to be confuse with WuDang the Taoist sect) to spread Baji in Taiwan. But, its was not a "commericial success" and did not capture the attention of the general publics. His WuTan magazine had a short run, but the WuTan schools have continue to thrive and have branches in Southeast Asia and Canada. His students (e.g., Adam Hsu) and WuTan had done a lot to help spread Baji and CMA.

But, it owes its more recent success of attracting the masses to its protrayal in the Japanese series. Go thru Chinese MA board in TW or HK, you will run into someone who want to learn or became facinated with Baji b/c of the comic. There's nothing wrong with it and most people want to learn KF b/c they saw it in the movies. But, once again, it just shows the power of mass media.

WM

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Daredevil
[B]

Well, I'm not from America, but ...

There is very little mysticism in Baji. Don't want to sound offensive, but that is a very ignorant comment. It is actually a very no-nonsense style in a very traditional manner.



um, I think the comment still holds true for Bagua. He didn't really specify.

[Brad]

They seem to believe in this "mysticism" and magic contained within the styles.
:confused: Baji??? :confused: First time I've ever heard anyone refer to Baji as "new age" :D Of all the styles I've come across so far Baji seems to have the least amount of new age mystic types associated with it :D You sure you're not thinking of something else entirely?

[RAF]

Omarthefish:

Will you cut me a break on baji being hard, please!!! I am beggin ya!

The baji fist is held relaxed, curled but open: A pencil can drop through and the fist is not contracted until you make contact with the target. The upper body of baji is song, song song.

Holding xiao baji for 8 breaths while breathing to 8 points is what it is. You can call it internal or external or 15th dimensional but it is breath work combined with stance work and that sure is standing post to me.

http://www.wutangcenter.com/bajipigua2.htm

Scroll down to the "internal" phase section (its in quotes because I don't like classify things as internal or external, I like a continuum.)

Internal
0------------------------------------->--------------------------100%

100%--------------------------------<------------------------------0
External

Pick your point!


A number of the exercises described involve heng haa breathing and the exercise "Eating the Sun" is in principle, Hun Yuan Qi Gong (confirmed to me by an honest-to-god Doctor of Chinese medicine trained in Beijing and later earning his Ph.D. in California and he doesn't practice baji)

At the top of the article, the spear exercise is heng haa and considered the equivalent of pole shaking found in the Chen's system.

WanderingMonk is 100% accurate about the baji comic books. There are even video games which have baji in it---pop culture fantasy.

Yep, there is a cult-like following of baji/pi gua and I am sure it has Liu Yun Qiao turning in his grave (at the speed of light).

Thats life in the fast lane but there is really nothing mystical about baji just good old fashion alignment, breathing, and bodywork!

OmardaFish, I loves ya but this hard stuff gotta soften. Forget internal/external dichotomy just tell me you train and play relaxed (until the point of impact, of course!).;)

[RAF]

BTW, in case any of you have not seen the flavor of baji, go to the following website and scroll down to the baji/pigua area and click on the film made by Ma Long, one of the baji teachers in Flushing NY. You'll see Liu Yun Qiao playing the baji linking form (he was in his early 60s, I believe) along with a number of people from Taiwan playing>

http://www.wutang.org/

I would be curious as to how Liu's flavor and form compare to other baji players. It was in Li Shu Wen's last 10 years that he taught Liu and also simplified and compacted the system.

In particular, how does this compare to what you have learned, Omarthefish? I am particularly interested since you are in the Zhang Xiang Wu lineage and Zhang Xiang Wu had a major impact upon Liu Yu Qiao (he was Liu's senior kungfu brother that got him hooked into 6 harmony mantis lineage as a formal student, made the arrangements for him to learn Gong Bao Tian's bagua as a formal student, and taught him his version of the Yang's taiji, sword and dao. Interestingly, the 6 harmony mantis and bagua discipleship was held in secret from Li Shu Wen because he would never have tolerated these arrangements.

[omarthefish]

I don't really care if it's internal or not. I prefer to say 'not' mainly because of 2 reasons.

1. It's distracting. Breath right. Relax. Stomp. etc. The power will come. I am taught to use 'reverse' breathing by the way.

2. When I put it up next to Bagua or Taijiquan it makes me look at taiji and say, " Oh... that's internal".

But mainly number one. To much thinking about how to "move your qi" tends to get in the way of good hard training.

I am also not aware of many of the finer points. I am taught to use the 'empty heart' or hollow fist. I know that the level of explosive power is primarily determined by the degree of relaxation you can achieve between explosions. There's interplay of yin and yang and an 'empty' chest and all that but that's not what makes it stand out from the rest in my opinion.

What I like about it and what I think gives it it's special flavor is it's ferocity. It's regal. Taiji is supposed to be iron wrapped in cotton but where do you forge the iron? The energy .
as it comes out is HARD. When I trained in Hung Gar I learned to drive through with my punches. I learned to put snapping whipping energy into certain moves. I learned use little hidden circles in my forearm blocks that would cut into my opponent's arm. But nowhere did I find that special omnidirectional explosive energy that I find so distinctive of Bajiquan. Too much talk of "the softer side of Bajiquan" and before you know it I'll be out in the woods with my dad beating drums and reading Robert Bly.

I just replayed the clip. Great link, by the way. Liu Yun Qiao looks great. I wish it wasn't all in slow motion. You can see certain things more clearly that way but I wanted to see the sharp, crispness of the moves. (slow-mo has it's bad points too) Many of the individual moves seemed to be the same as what I'm learning but I don't recognize the drills. My Sifu has told me about the "8 Big Golden Postures" (? my translation of his words - ba da jing gang shi ?) and other stuff but for now I'm still just training xiaobaji and dabaji.

No pigua. Ironically I learned some pigua from YC Wong before I came out here but I've forgotten most of it.

The only difference I can see so far is that my Sifu seems to be more adamant about the stomping and keeping it very distinct from taiji and bagua and such. He does say you can bring taiji jing into Baji but he keeps it very clear what's taiji and what's baji.

p.s. I haven't found any convenient way to probe his Bagua lineage. I'm almost not really supposed to be practicing Baguazhang. It's weird. He kind of keeps checking up on my circle walking practice but has only very indirectly taught me Bagua related stuff. Like just giving me little glimpses or corrections on certain palms but officially I haven't learned any Bagua at all from him. It's all from my American Sifu. Well, that's how these old traditionalists are you know. I just love it.

[RAF]

Hello Omarthefish:

We really are on the same page. Baji is NOT the same as Chen taiji or xing yi but I can see some of the roots. Baji has its own unique flavor and way of delivering power. The second exercise in the article, we call "eating the sun" actually trains reverse breathing without you knowing it. I'll comment PM sometime.

I am very fascinated with Zhang Xiang Wu because I primarily started in martial arts with Yang's taiji and know that all of my Yang's comes from Zhang Xiang Wu. I love the sword and I hear that there really is not any dao form but siimply a set of lines you play.

A lot of the those single moving postures come from ba da zhai and ba da zou (not sure about the pinyin given the Taiwan accent) and liu da kai. Before I learned xiao baji, i only learned single moving exercises and standing and moving one punches.

If ou find out anymore about Zhang Xiang Wu, especially where he learned his taiji, please post or PM.

Have a happy newyear and eat lots of jiaozi.

[omarthefish]

I out the door to work shortly so I'll keep it brief.

My Sifu seems to know a Baji sword set (dan dao not jian).

ba da zou almost for sure is ba da zhao. Taiwanese is a really funny accent to me. It sounds like they talk with a lisp except the 's' sounds are all 'z' sounds. Sometimes they sound like buzzing bee's to me. Very good for the Chinese dubbing of 'Shrek'. Kind of weird when I see their more serious movies.

If I get any new info on Zhang Xiangwu, I'll be sure to contact you. Like I said before, he's kind of a hush hush topic. He seems to have died an enemy of the state. Chose the 'wrong' side in the fight for control of China. Even his harrassment of opium dealers has become, "bullying the common people of China". I've been warned not to bring him up with people who are not my gong-fu brothers. It could make me seem anti-communist.

[omarthefish]

p.s. I wish I knew the ba da zhao. Finding a place suitable for practicing the form is a pain in the arse. Sifu is so traditional he says I must practice in secret. He doesn't want anyone to 'steal' xiaobaji' from me. :rolleyes:

[Tainan Mantis]

There is Baji here in Tainan.
The students practice in a public location, but if anyone stops to look they will come and tell you you can't stand and watch.
Talk about unfriendly.

This is just for their basic exercises.
I don't know what they do about 2 man practice because they almost never do it in public.

[carly]

Thank you for your answers.

[RAF]

Its unfortunate that they react and behave that way. Baji takes much more than simply seeing. They shouldn't practice publicly if they feel that strongly about their art.

For years it was held in secret simply because Jiang Jieshi's body guards were trained in it and for that reason and a few others, it can be a bit cultish. We are trying very hard to bring it out of the shadow of secrets and more into a public format.

Should any of you visit the Cleveland/Akron/Canton are you are most welcome to come to our school and observe a baji class. We are use-friendly.

Oh yeah, way to go STEELERS (Pittsburgh's my hometown). I got keep it quiet around here, today!

[omarthefish]

Well re-reading this thread after all this time was quite a trip through memory lane. :)

btw, wolfen...it's not "tou xue" if he invites you to come and see. ;)

My teacher is more secretive. I've never seen him yell at anyone for trying to "steal" our stuff. We just stop doing anything interesting if the wrong people seem to be watching. There's a lot of curious of ****s walking around getting their exercise but just watching doesn't mean their trying to learn your stuff. It's when they study you intently that it becomes a problem. Sometimes they are dumb enough as to try even mimicing you from a distance. My teacher has pretty strict rules for me about that so when people start studying what I do I typically switch to jsut practicing zhan zhuang or other stance work.

Ironically, I'm putting the real secrets right in front of them but they are such boring secrets no one generally will bother trying to copy and lose interest after a few minutes.

[IronFist]

Has a Baji or Bagua guy ever won in NHB? I mean real NHB, not that one video of the NHB fight where the two old Chinese guys kept bopping each other in the head with hammer fists.

[Buddy]

carly,
If baguazhang or bajiquan interest you, you might also try inquiring at the Empty Flower forum as there a lot of internal players on that list.
Buddy
Yizong Baguazhang

BTW for those of you on Taiwan, my teacher (Luo Dexiu) teaches at the Chiang Kaishek memorial bldg in Taipei. Check him out.

[MoreMisfortune]

BAAAAAG WAAAAA
BAAAAAG WAAAAA

[SPJ]

Memories.

In the 50's and 60's, there is the Taipei municipal park. My faovrite thing was to get on the bronze water buffalo at the entrance. Imagined that I am Lao Tzu riding the water buffalo and wandering.

In the 70's, there is the Dr. Sun Yet Sen memorial park. I ran around the step-high lanes.

Since the 80's, there is the CKS (Zhong Cheng Ji Nian Tang) memorial park.

Just about every park, there are people practicing Tai Ji, and all in the morning.

Whoever is there first gets the spot.

Talking about crowding out.

:cool:

[Buddy]

wolf,
Sorry no. I haven't been there but I suspect people there would know my teacher. You might try other websites like empty flower to ask but who knows? His group is there on some weeknights about 8 or 8:30. He may or may not be there at the time. Do you know what Gao baguazhang looks like? Or Mr. Luo?
Good Luck,
Buddy

[SPJ]

Here are the links.

CKS Memorial (www.orientalarchitecture.com/taipei/shekmemorialindex.htm)

Dr. Sun Yet Sen Memorial (www.yatsen.gov.tw/english/beauty.htm)

[TAO YIN]

Omar,

Have you ever heard of a Professor Xue Xian Wang? Have you ever heard of a Su Tian? The first person is a Xing Yi/Baji dude in Chengdu. I think the second person is his teacher. I just wondered if perhaps you or your teacher might have heard of or known these instructors. I appreciate any info.

Tao

[omarthefish]

I'll try to remember the names next time I see my teacher but he doesn't seem to get to Sichuan much. Most of "our people" are in Shaanxi or Shandong. You never know though.

Do you have any more info on these people? Where they teach? Positions on any martial arts associations etc? Just the names in pinyin is not much to go on.

[Palmer]

I wouldnt say the Baji and Bagua folks are any more fanatical then many other CMA arts. I think anytime an individual works really hard and starts to personally own what they train and it becomes effective for them they can get highly enthusiastic about what they are doing. In addition to Baji and Bagua I can think of many others that have practitioners in the CMA's that are just as "fanatical"... not in any order of importance
Southern PM, Northern PM, WC, Hsing-i, Lama/Hop Gar, White eye brow, SC, CLF, and yes many Tai Chi folks with many more to mention....

[SPJ]

Agreed.

Ba Ji was an instant love affair for me.

Ba Gua needs some time to really know what is going on. Feels dizzy/disoriented in the beginning.

Tai Ji was hate, hate and hate. After some gruelling slowness and torturing standing stillness, and some time later, hm Tai Ji stays with me and not letting go.

Cheers.

:D