"Snapping" power

[red5angel]

Whipping power, ball on a chain power, whatever you want to call it, I am looking to see if anyone here has some tricks for developing it. I am naturally sort of stiff so need to work heavily on loosening up a bit ot get that snap in my punches!

[red5angel]

keeerist, you put up a post about your genius freind or if dogs have emotions and you can't stop them from posting fast enough!!! But post something martial arts related........
@_________

[yenhoi]

2 drills:

tennis ball:

put tennis ball in crook of elbow, pop elbow, shoot tennis ball up, try for higher and higher.


coffee can:

fill coffee can with heavy stuff. Place on smooth surface. Put hand on can, pop elbow up, shoot can across surface. Fill with more stuff and heavier stuff as you get better.

I also have a WCK stepping drill that develops short power.

[red5angel]

What's the WCK drill you have Yenhoi?

I have some of my own I have been doing for a while but wanted to try some other things as well to see if maybe somehting else works better for me.

[[Censored]]

Try salsa dancing.

[yenhoi]

From sidling stance you cross your arms like the beggining of a form, step forward while rotating your palms upward, pull the rear leg forward with your hips and pop your elbows, then settle back in the starting position. Power comes from the ground.

[Souljah]

sorry to ask a dumb questi0on red but what does this aid?

snapping power that is

[Taomonkey]

I would tell you to take up some yoga, deep stretching coordinated with breathing, hatha for flexability, Iengar for stregnth, combining both for martial arts. Traditional stregnth training focuses on muscle contractions, where yoga focuses on legnthing muscles,
trusst me from this training I have gained much speed and "snap"

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i learned a small set of movements that i cant remember the name to. something gay sounding ... plum hand or flower fist fu ck ... i cant remember. you would form your hand like you are holding a hankerchief and the movements would mimick snapping it out at someone. it would be hard to expalin all the movements here (probably wouldnt be that hard but im lazy) but one of the main ones that started giving me an idea of this kind of power was simply a backfisted movement in this form. its basically a backfist but it whips accross your body just as if you were snapping a towl or something. after practicing the movement for a while i started messing around with it on the heavy bag and definately noticed a differant type of power was being generated. suprisingly, when done right, it still had the same penetrating thud vs. the surface smacking that i expected with this type of movement. the penetration didnt feel quite as deep (hehe), but that may come with time. sifu said that when you really get good at this you should be so relaxed that if someone intercepts your initial strike the fingers can extend with most of the power that was behind the original strike. i dont know about all that, but i understand what the theory and mindset is aiming to acheive.

[red5angel]

Souljah, well, it helps to develop speed and power while staying relaxed, sort of the optimum state to be in when fighting. That of course is opinion.

Interesting Taomonkey, I will have to look into this!

[yenhoi]

Most places you go for yoga will be crap. Too much hippie bs or too much health freak bs.

Yoga links:

www.zenyoga.co.uk

www.yogaclass.com

www.yogabasics.com

www.itsyoga.net

www.yogasite.com


That will get you started.

I agree with Taomonkey, you will find many benefits in Yoga, despite the whole non-violence thing most hippes and health freaks push and push without much insight.

Yoga sects aside, breath is what is important.

[red5angel]

It sounds weird but what do you guys think of Pilates? I know it has got popular as of late but does it work? Can it work in this instance?

[norther practitioner]

Ok, this is what i've done with varying success.

(starting with right arm)
stand with feet shoulder width, twist torso to left, then twist all the way to the right and let the arms raise while twisting. This is the root of where I try to harness the power from.
I also do arm waves to get some of the mechanics down for the arm movement. I guess this is where being a popper kind of helps (fyi poppin' is a type of hip-hop dance...Mr. Wiggles in the last Missy Eliot video etc.) but the arm wave moving away from the body is basicly the same motion.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

put what me and np said togeather and you will have a better description that confuses you more.

[yenhoi]

Pilates is yoga.

[Stacey]

blow out a candle with your fist from over a foot away. That will develop snap.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

yeah but does that develope snap in your punches or snapping power? are they the same thing?

i know that sounds stupid, but i always saw those types of punches (the kind that blow out candles) as causing more surface damage when the movements i was talking about penetrated more.

also, i have always referred to the power in these movements as whipping power.... i figured this was the same thing as there is that same snap at then end but maybe not. i also said that i expected these movements to do surface damange until i actually tested them on the heavy bag.

sometimes it sucks not having the names for things everyone else uses.

[KC Elbows]

Interesting. MP and GDA, what you described sounded a lot like something we do, with some differences. At the very end of our movement, your hip turns back- meaning, your hip goes to the left, then to the right, but at the end, it goes back to center at the same time the power is manifested(at least to my understanding). i don't know what the name of it is in our system, but it's cool.

[rubthebuddha]

fa jing comes to mind, as does pow gar lik.

[Stacey]

to get it from a foot away you need penetrating power that happens to snap at the dan tien.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i agree that that's probably the right way to do it, but not the only way.

in highschool me and my friends would do this for hours. after a couple weeks i could do it from nearly 3 feet away, but i stopped when i realized what it was doing to my elbows. again ... i understand i was doing it wrong at that time and haven't really messed with it since.

[Stacey]

ok, at first I messed my elbows, but them I fixed it. I do from horse to bow stance with a twist punch.

3 feet? Your my new hero. It has a lot to do with aim.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

yeah ...if i remember right, i had to aim right below the flame at the wic.

3 feet really isnt all that impressive when all you're doing is generating wind. i would only get it one out every 5 - 10 tries but it was definately about 3 feet away. 3 out of 4 of us were able to get it from the same distance. it was a nice party trick but i was just making wind and killing my elbows.

i did mess with it a little bit right before i stopped training and was doing it just how you described .... horse stance with front snap punch (elbow always remaining slightly bent). i was lucky to get it from a couple inches when doing it right.

[carly]

studying chen tai chi's second "cannon fist" form.

[planetwc]

What happened to your Taiji training in this area?

And your Wing Chun training?

What do your current MMA teachers advocate for development of power?

You are going to have to decide what kind of framework you are operating from to deliver power.

Is it from Taiji body mechanics? Boxing? Muay Thai? Wing Chun?

Each is going to have different approaches to how to do so AND the platform from which to deliver.


Originally posted by red5angel
Whipping power, ball on a chain power, whatever you want to call it, I am looking to see if anyone here has some tricks for developing it. I am naturally sort of stiff so need to work heavily on loosening up a bit ot get that snap in my punches!

[Excession]

This ones from my Sifu, I haven't done it for any length of time so can't confirm if it works but... Stand in a pool so that the water comes up to your shoulders, then make circular motions with your arms in front of you with your palms facing down. Concentrate on relaxing your shoulders. That should help with the relaxation bit, which should help with 'snapping' power.

[firepalm]

Simply practice holding your hand & arm in a very relaxed position, either chambered at the waist or in a standard on guard fighting position, then strike out in a straight line as relaxed as possible then at near full extension (or intended point of impact)try to explode as you tense your arm muscles only. Immediately relax the hand & arm as you return it to its original position. Do this one strike at time making sure to remain as relaxed as possible with each strike (do not try to pound out as many punches as you can in succession as you will probably just revert to being too tense). This can be done using only the punching action from the arm or in conjunction with the turning action of the waist & stance. Snapping backfist type punches & hooking swinging punches can be practiced like this as well. It is largely a conscious effort. Practice this methods on various types of bags or striking targets.

A good test, not unlike the flame / candle drill is to to stand a cigarette on end and then using only a straight line punch try to knock the cigarette over (the further away from the cigarette the more effective). Again only with a straightline strike try punching a medium to large size cardboard box. Muscle alone will send the box flying, however relaxed snapping power should result in you pentrating or breaking the surface of the box.

Just a few ideas.;)

[Machimurasan]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Ok, this is what i've done with varying success.

(starting with right arm)
stand with feet shoulder width, twist torso to left, then twist all the way to the right and let the arms raise while twisting. This is the root of where I try to harness the power from.
I also do arm waves to get some of the mechanics down for the arm movement. I guess this is where being a popper kind of helps (fyi poppin' is a type of hip-hop dance...Mr. Wiggles in the last Missy Eliot video etc.) but the arm wave moving away from the body is basicly the same motion.

Finally someone who understands. Waving and ticking are perfect exercises you can do to increase relaxed speed and whipping power. For example the contractions made with each manipulation of a joint in your hand and arm, establishes the illusion of a strobe-like effect when you "tick". "Hitting" is the next stage, but it takes years to get the coordination between fluid motion and a terminus of "stop-action" that leads into the next joint ticking sequence. When you can do 3-d ticks, animation and tick-waves, and strobed baby rocks you will be like a modern Nejia master. Being a b-boy since 1982 has helped me excel in many physical activities. It's very good tendon training, too.

The wave is done mechanically at first, just getting the coordination down to sequentially manipulate the next joint, thus perpetuationg the wave in your arms (or body or neck or legs). I know it sounds ridiculous, but you have to ask yourself where the 4 elements of breakdancing came from, i.e.: Pop-LOCKING, Up Rock, Popping or on the West Coast the Electric-Boogaloo or Strutting, and Breaking (spinning and floor work). If you undertand their origins (and the true origins of all Hip Hop Culture) and happen to be fairly familiar with MAs you know where it comes from. Each aspect of breakdancing is also an aspect of complete fighting technique/ranges.

Forget yoga. Forget stretching, learn to really breakdance (at least popping and Breaking) and you'll figure out whipping power and other things you didn't know your body could do! I doubt you'll find many Mr. Freezes, Mr.Wiggles, Mr. Waves or Boogaloo Shrimps left, but I know of at least 9. Peace...

[TjD]

if you had stuck with your wing chun training, the wooden dummy is a good way to learn how to get that "snap" in your wing chun movements. it just takes practice

hell, you can get a good "snap" doing enough punches in the air, if you pay attention to how you're doing them

[red5angel]

planetwc, I am still training the taichi and the wingchun, just loking for other things to try. Sometimes we can find something that seems to work better for us then other things is all. I may come across something that seems to help me more then others but the only way to find out is to go seeking.

[KC Elbows]

I stand corrected. I'm not talking about the same jing as you guys are. I missed the candle thing.

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

my advice (for whatever it's worth) is to specifically practice your retraction. when i was trying to improve my sidekick, i'd break it down into two segments. the first segment concludes with the leg extended in the full kick. then pause. now practice retracting it quickly to the knee and down to the ground.

non-snappy technique, to my mind, stems from the habit of 'sticking' techniques. my teachers always told me to 'stick' that sidekick. but that ends up being more of a push, to my mind. better to retract it straight away. but without specifically practicing that phase of a technique, people often tend to just let a technique peter out at the end, rather than actually finishing it decisively (especially with kicks, in my experience).

so there's my advice.


stuart b.

[fa_jing]

Link chain punches and three-arrow punches did wonders for my hand speed.

[carly]

It's ot about retracting the limb so that it looks good and clean, it's about explosive whipping power being generated and expressed.

[apoweyn]

carly,


Originally posted by carly
It's ot about retracting the limb so that it looks good and clean, it's about explosive whipping power being generated and expressed.

i don't recall mentioning aesthetics. why would you assume i was talking about looking good and clean?

'explosive whipping power', in my opinion, is diminished when the striking limb is allowed to hit the target and then go dead. to avoid that, in my opinion, you need a good recoil. and the way to get a good recoil is to practice a good recoil.


stuart b.

[fa_jing]

Why would recoil increase the power? Change the power, yes, but movement in the opposite direction can't possibly add to the power, right? I thought that styles that snap back did so for defensive purposes and to follow immediately with another strike.

[apoweyn]

well, i think you just answered your own question. it changes the type of power. it doesn't increase it.

disclaimer: any claims i make are based on personal observation and not on any knowledge of physics. so this explanation isn't going to be as scientific as i might like.

you're right, obviously, that the recoil isn't going to add to the kick. it's traveling in the wrong direction. but what it does do is help to ensure that the kick doesn't end up being a push. (nothing wrong with push kicks, mind you. but they aren't intended to generate 'explosive whipping power.')

as i said, this is based on personal observation. so the best i can do is suggest that red5angel give it a go. best way i've found is, once you've practiced it a bit, get someone to hold an airshield for you. then try both methods. get some feedback from them. my experience is that they tend to feel more of it when you recoil. kinda like that desk toy with the four hanging metal balls. the one ball hits, the energy is transferred through the middle two, and the last ball swings up. when i recoil, people tend to feel it through the shield more. (and vice versa, when i'm holding the shield.) when i don't recoil, i might send them back a few steps, but they personally didn't feel as much. they were propelled rather than impacted.

does that make sense?

in any event, i can only suggest giving it a go and judging for yourself.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

p.s. as you mentioned, it also has the fortunate side effect of getting you into a mobile, guarded position again more quickly.


stuart b.

[fa_jing]

Hmm. I can see where maybe the act of stopping the forward motion suddenly, may aid in the transfer of the energy. One way to do that would be through retraction of the limb. Still, not too sure either about the physics behind this. Another thing is you wouldn't push your opponent out of range.

[apoweyn]

yep, that's definitely another advantage. once you've pushed them out of kicking range, that's pretty much it. you gotta chase them down again.

any physics people want to take a shot at this idea?


stuart b.

[Machimurasan]

Oh well I tried God!

[apoweyn]

you try all of us actually.