Do you SPAR!? WHY NOT!!!!!!

[KenWingJitsu]

Okay peeps.
Let's face the facts now. We all love wing chun etc etc. But how many of you can REALLY put it to use? Really. Do you think you can? Or do you KNOW you can.

Do you spar at your school/dojo/kwoon? If not....why not? If you don't, how do you KNOW you can use what you learn? So you're great at chi-sao...big whoopee! What do you do when someone throws a jab at you. A simple, haymaker? A single leg takedown? What then?

On this forum we know most of you don't spar or don't even know what sparring is & have never seen it or done it. And no, "spontaneous chi-sao" while useful, is NOT sparring.

My question is this; how can you in good consicence continue to practice this way and not "pressure test" the things you learn?

All I read about on here is which "style" of WC is the best etc blah blah blah. Well wanna know which style is the best? THE ONE THAT SPARS! That's it. Simple. Sparring is where you know if you're doing it right or not. Sparring is spontaneous reaction to unknown "commited" attacks. It can be agreed upon sparring (like kickboxing) or it can be "Scenario sparring" (sucker punch attack drills with reaction counters). How many of you do this at all?

Oh and don't bore me with the wc isn't meant for sport nonsene. I know that already. there's a reason why or a beeter way to put it, but that's for later. I specifically mentioned "scenario sparring" since most WC don't 'kickbox'. Do you do that? IMO, the guys who do sparring the most are the "LOT-SAU" pepople. you know the WT/EBMAS group. The more you spar (even if it is "isolated sparring" like in EBMAS/WT), the better off you are as a fighter.

Of course WT?EBMAS isn't the ONLY plcae to find wing chun 'sparring' but its it ALWAYS there. Not so in other WC branches. Ok...........so how many of you feel you're missing somethign by not sparring? be honest.

[AndrewS]

Tiera?

That you?
<Alright, with the KenWingJitsu handle it's gotta be>

Did I mis-spell your name?

Wanna train sometime this week or next?

Private message me if so, or hit my e-mail at <razorbladekiss23@yahoo.com>

Later,

Andrew

P.S. Word is Jannis is coming. I have some plans. Details later.

[KenWingJitsu]

Andrew!!! Yes it's me. lol And it's spelled "Dh"ira, but the "Dh" is pronounced "T" so it sounds like "Tira".

Yannis is coming? Awesome.....talk about sparring haha! He is the man. We can train next week. I'll e-mail you.

T

(The rest of you...start sparring..or learn some Lot-sau) :D

[Klasanov]

I've used my Wing Tsun at my Karate class semi-effectively.

Though, those guys pointspar...

[danny james1]

We do spar at are school but only after 3 years or so of training and then we have to ware full body protection.
I have not reached that stage yet but am curious to know how you can spar using wing chun,we have always been told in a violent confrontation to finish a fight as quickly as possible(seconds) using chops to the throat,eye jabs and various other vicious attacks.
I do not see how you could have full contact wing chun sparing without somebody getting seriously hurt.
I would love to be able to spar using wing chun but what are the rules?

[anerlich]

KWJ! Things get boring on the Underground?


I do not see how you could have full contact wing chun sparing without somebody getting seriously hurt.

You spar with protective gear (gloves, mouthguards, shin pads, and maybe headguards and whatever else) and avoid shots to obvious weak areas (throat groin eyes joints etc.) Kinda like ... well ... kickboxing and/or MMA rules.

You are being oversold WC if someone is telling you it's "too deadly" to spar with. Bruce Lee, William Cheung, WSL, etc. would have killed people in those HK rooftop fights, wouldn't they? And certain others claiming 300+ streetfights would be doing hard time in jail or facing a needle if their art was as deadly as claimed, would they not?

In our school we spar in both kickboxing and vale tudo formats (we are a Machado BJJ associate school as well). People usually start after about 6 months, once they have some basic tools and some clue about how to apply them. Usually semi contact, with an optional weekly session for the hard nuts.

[PQS]

I think Lat-Sao is a good introduction to free form fighting especially when you progress through the system, although we also have a monthly fight club which has a lot of conditioning exercises and sparring as well.
regards and Happy New Year
Peter

[TjD]

in my school we spar, you just have to be ready for it

you wont be able to walk in and spar your first day. since we dont use any gear (except a cup), control, trust, and anger management are all big parts of it. our sparring classes are closed door, invite only. i'd bet almost half of the students that i train with dont even know about them.

i dont know how many other schools are like this? but it works well for us

[45degree fist]

my take on wing chun is that you train the tools given to you so that your body reacts with the right tool based on the situation. there is sparring or kuen faut classes offered at schools for people who feel comfortable with sparring and some students even meet up outside of class to practice. and as for training for a sucker punch or strike if it is a true sucker punch you are getting hit regardless. you can only train to recover from one

[straight blast]

That was beautiful. So many people seem to think that sparring will "mar the perfection of technique" (quotes intentional). If you don't spar you're kidding yourself.

As an aside...what is this "lot sao" stuff?

[Genesis]

We spar at the school I go to and I really like the system used.

Here is how it works, the most experianced get out front and the most inexperianced spar with them, then the next level up in experiance and so on until the most experianced are sparring with eachother.

I like the fact that you are sparring with someone heaps better than you. With this method you can learn from their movements and feel how they do things differently (and better) than yourself.

Then after you spar you can see the next level up spar and see how their movements/techniques differ from yours and again how you can improve.

[yuanfen]

lot/lat sao simply involves beginning engagement prior to contact.

We have always had lat sao- but we do it differently than the
Kernspecht folks.

joy chaudhuri

[KenWingJitsu]

****..can't go anywhere without being recognized lol.

anerlich...who are you n the UG? Yes that place is stale.

straightblast, lot-sao is the "sparring program" of the WT branch. Hard to explain but you basically isolate your attack s& responses; start an close (clinch) range but staright punches at each other instead of clinching, one person attacks form the punches, the other reacts or gets hit, etc etc. It can be done progressively or turn by turn, or like close range sparring where one person just goes for attacks all out & the other has to defend & counter.

yuafen; how do you do lot sau differently?

[Wingman]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
[snip] ...lot-sao is the "sparring program" of the WT branch. Hard to explain but you basically isolate your attack s& responses; start an close (clinch) range but staright punches at each other instead of clinching, ... [snip]

Does lot/lat sao start with you & your opponent's hands in contact? Are the attacks limited to straight punches?

[OdderMensch]

Let's face the facts now. We all love wing chun etc etc. But how many of you can REALLY put it to use? Really. Do you think you can? Or do you KNOW you can.
Do you spar at your school/dojo/kwoon? If not....why not? If you don't, how do you KNOW you can use what you learn?


I really know I think I can, but I don't know if I can think that, really.

Many factors may come to play should I ever NEED to use my kung fu. So I train for what I can and hope I'll bring my skills to bear should the time come.

Yes I spar, and yes I can use my kung fu while sparring. That tells me I can use my skills while sparing, not that i'll be able to do the same in a "real" situation.

So you're great at chi-sao...big whoopee! What do you do when someone throws a jab at you. A simple, haymaker? A single leg takedown? What then?

I'm hardly great at chi sau. As for jabs, hooks, haymakers, and the like, I faced these many times before i ever put on sparing mits. First the were fed to me (ie im gonna hit you with some right hand jabs, heres some jab / hooks, heres a jab/hook/takedown) then I had to meet them (ie im gonna jab and/or jab/hook at you, you respond) then I had to face hem (ok im gonna try and hit you at some point here, stop me) All long before I ever spared.


On this forum we know most of you don't spar or don't even know what sparring is & have never seen it or done it. And no, "spontaneous chi-sao" while useful, is NOT sparring.

so what is sparring?


Sparring is spontaneous reaction to unknown "commited" attacks. It can be agreed upon sparring (like kickboxing) or it can be "Scenario sparring" (sucker punch attack drills with reaction counters).

I thought chi sau wasn't sparring? "Spontaneous reaction to unknown "commited" attacks" sounds like a good session of advanced chi sau to me. It begins at a predetermined range, sets up (ie begins the "roll") and then you go.

I agree with chi sau not being sparing, but why isn't it from your definition?


My question is this; how can you in good consicence continue to practice this way and not "pressure test" the things you learn?

is sparring the only way to test yourself? your techniques?

I "spar" in kwoon much the same way as TjD. Cup only, control is the key. I wear required gear outside of the kwoon.

[EnterTheWhip]

Don't kid yourself, and don't waste your training time. If you don't "KNOW", sparring ain't gonna help ya.

[KenWingJitsu]

Does lot/lat sao start with you & your opponent's hands in contact? Are the attacks limited to straight punches?

No. It satrts with you and your partner PUNCHING at each other...chan\in punching at close range and the only thing that might stop you from getting hit is the fact that your arms are punchingstaright forward, into his punches.


I agree with chi sau not being sparing, but why isn't it from your definition?

Chi-sao is not sparring because you will never start a REAL altercation in the same position as you start chi-sao. Even when you're being spontaneous, it's NOT sparring. It's sontaneous chi-sao.

If you want sparring, it should BEGIN the same way it would beging on the street. With Someone trying to really punch you.


Yes I spar, and yes I can use my kung fu while sparring. That tells me I can use my skills while sparing, not that i'll be able to do the same in a "real" situation.

Then there's no problem here. If you spar then you already know that you can do it for real under pressure and still react. But remember...there are basically 2 types of "sparring". Scenario or 'street' sparring, and 'honorable combat sparring' (kickboxing-like). You should paractice them both and try to keep your attacks & responses simple.

[straight blast]

No. It satrts with you and your partner PUNCHING at each other...chan\in punching at close range and the only thing that might stop you from getting hit is the fact that your arms are punchingstaright forward, into his punches

We do that too. Is that all there is to it? I lost a lot of skin off my wrists the 1st few times I did that ;)

[anerlich]

anerlich...who are you n the UG? Yes that place is stale.

My handle there is ajn - I don't post there very often but lurk a lot. Seems like a lot of the good posts have already been made, and appear on Stickgrappler's site. I've started spending more time on Sherdog.

I hope you guys that spar with cup only have good dental insurance. If I could choose one piece of protective equipment only, I'd take the mouthguard over a cup every time.


If you don't "KNOW", sparring ain't gonna help ya.

If you don't spar, "KNOWING" ain't gonna help ya neither.

[KenWingJitsu]

"Is that all there is to it? I lost a lot of skin off my wrists the 1st few times I did that "

No. There's a LOT more to it. Yhat's just the begining step. You are not obligated to just punch. You can move in & tackle, uppercut, hook, knee elbow clinch, whatever. Your partner never knows what you're gonna do, he just has to fight back by reacting & countering while trying to keep his balance & structure.


anerlich. wassup man, I baguely remember your name. ya it's true all the good posts are done over there lol. Now it's all the recycled stuff from the same people.

"If you don't spar, "KNOWING" ain't gonna help ya neither." Word up brother; Amen!!!!!!

[OdderMensch]

Chi-sao is not sparring because you will never start a REAL altercation in the same position as you start chi-sao. Even when you're being spontaneous, it's NOT sparring. It's sontaneous chi-sao.

So it's not sparing because of the start position? What sparing match begins as a real altercation? I'd say Chi Sau fits as "honorable combat style" sparing as well as anything else, by your definition. I'd no sooner start a fight from a rolling arms position than I would with a bow, or a touching of gloves. Surely thats not why Chi Sau isn't sparing.


I hope you guys that spar with cup only have good dental insurance. If I could choose one piece of protective equipment only, I'd take the mouthguard over a cup every time.

saddly no dental insurance for me :( I always wear a cup to class, when we spar in kwoon we are carful to aim to the body. Outside the kwoon I want a mouthpiece.

[YungChun]

The original poster is right despite being a little harsh. Too many of us are deluded into thinking that all will be well when the $hit hits the fan. In truth some will, but most won't. Lat Sao is good but we can do better. In the best of all worlds we would have experts in the class experienced in all kinds of fighting, kickboxing, karate, BJJ, you name it, and work your stuff against all of these kinds of people. Few have access to all those people but we should take advantage of what we have at our disposal - whatever people, whatever knowledge. If you really want it and you don't have these people available then enter some open sparring events or even do a Bulletmen seminar. Wing Chun can spar we just do it a little differently - we go in for the kill and that's how you should play your sparring - if you can.

The best way to make your WCK work is to train the right way using the traditional drills and methods and then periodically work it in fighting drills or sparring or both. The stress alone of dealing with the unexpected, of dealing with someone doing something different is going to wack out your $hit, your reflexes your technique may very well go out the window - or not. The fact is that if you don't work your kung fu in this manner at some point your abiltiy to use the system will be way below what it could be and you may very well end up getting your a$$ handed to you and feeling sorry for yourself - and you should.

If you want to be able to defend various kinds of attacks then find some people who know how to fight and - get it on! Be safe and sensible - take it slow, but do work your kung-fu, if you want it to be alive. When you spar and you f**k up then take the time to figure out why and fix it - yes the system works and works well - but do you? If you don't want to fight or be a fighter then it doesn't matter forget this thread.

YC

[Savi]

In answer to the poster's question, yes I do spar. Over at Meng's Martial Arts of Arizona there is a wide variety of martial artists of different disciplines (currently averaging 240 students). There are several accomplished black belts and sashes from Tae Kwon Do and Southern Shaolin Kung Fu, and others with backgrounds in Aikido, Jujitsu, Karate, Judo, Wrestling, and Hapkido (from what I remember) to name a few. With such a wide variety of martial experience in the school, it is quite exciting to spar with them. Sparring is only done at the school with the mid-intermediate and advanced students though.

At the school during sparring sessions, we always start roughly 2 - 3 steps away from the opponent. There is no 'preset' position [that I think was implied/stated in other posts] that we start from, other than from pre-contact range. With regards to Chi Sao and sparring, Chi Sao is understood in two ways: Chi Sao as methods/structured in training drills, and Chi Sao as moments in time during combat.

1) Chi Sao during the training stages has specific techniques to shape the exercise (ie: tan, bong, fook), and specific progressions to go through and experience. So this level of Chi Sao is very set in shape, sequence, and application with the 'roll' as the foundation of application for each progression in training.

2) Chi Sao in combat takes on a much broader definition once in the 'deprogramming stage.' At this level it simply becomes a technique (whether it be one or two hands/arms) that is required, based on condition, to 'stick' to the opponent. 'Stick' when you need to. If a simple Pak Da is all that is needed to blast a punch off the battlefield, no need to Chi Sao. If, for example, you have to go from a Kwan Sao to Gahn/Jahm Sao and Huen Sao, that is Chi Sao.

Rolling (by the second definition) is not the basis to define if you are doing Chi Sao or not. Do you need to stick to someone's arm/leg/body for more than one technique? If not, no need to Chi Sao.

Also, in sparring there are two rules at our school, 1) respect the hands and your opponent: know when you lost, and 2) control your force: any injuries other than minor bruising is strictly prohibited.

Thanks,
-Savi.

[KenWingJitsu]

The original poster is right despite being a little harsh. Too many of us are deluded into thinking that all will be well when the $hit hits the fan. In truth some will, but most won't.

EXACTLY. And that is my point for this thread. Wing Chun needs a reality check. Sometimes a harsh post is the best way to begin. For wing chuners (sp) lol, Lot sau is a very good begining provided you keep it real. Try ot hit the guy, break away form the structure. play with it. Never let your opponent know what you're doing. Keep it "real". This is a good sparring tool to isolate that close range.


The best way to make your WCK work is to train the right way using the traditional drills and methods and then periodically work it in fighting drills or sparring or both. The stress alone of dealing with the unexpected, of dealing with someone doing something different is going to wack out your $hit, your reflexes your technique may very well go out the window - or not.

Beautifully put, I couldn't agree more. It can be done and people should be willing to do this more instead of settling for being the laughing stock of the MA world.

[EnterTheWhip]

The best way to make your WCK work is to train the right way using the traditional drills and methods
Yes.

and then periodically work it in fighting drills or sparring or both. The "traditional drills and methods" ARE the fighting drills. Sparring simply undoes it all, regardless of how you look at it.

your reflexes your technique may very well go out the window Perhaps the "reality" in the drills themselves is not understood.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip

Yes.
The "traditional drills and methods" ARE the fighting drills. Sparring simply undoes it all, regardless of how you look at it.
Perhaps the "reality" in the drills themselves is not understood.

How does putting all the training to a test undo it all? We are talking about applying the skills under as close to real conditions as possible. Stress training alone is an accepted modern tool designed to train people to perform under pressure. However one does this - doing it is essential.

As for the traditional methods: How do you expect to deal with the unconventional attack if you've never experienced one? Hope to get lucky? The tradional tools will give you the foundation but experiencing and applying these skills in an unfamiliar situation is the key to learning to make the skills work when things don't go by the book.




Bruce Lee said:

You cannot learn to swim without getting in the
water.

[KenWingJitsu]

How does putting all the training to a test undo it all? We are talking about applying the skills under as close to real conditions as possible. Stress training alone is an accepted modern tool designed to train people to perform under pressure. However one does this - doing it is essential.
BEAUTIFUL!!! Thank good ness there are people who 'get it'. If all you do is train drills, you'll be good at one thing; drilling. If you train alive, in other words your training includes 'fighting', then you'll become good at fighting. Unless you do this, it won't magically appear once you REALLY need to fight. You fight as you train. Train against a resisting opponent who's fighting back, and you'll be able to fight against a resisting opponent who's fighting back. Don't, and you won't.

[kj]

And if all you do is spar or fight, you won't build or apply the foundation and skills of the art you propose to practice.

As with all things, finding the right balance is the key. Only in a flat world is the appropriate balance the same for everyone.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[OdderMensch]

And if all you do is spar or fight, you won't build or apply the foundation and skills of the art you propose to practice.


If all you do is train drills, you'll be good at one thing; drilling.

and if all you do is spar, you become good at one thing, sparring.


BEAUTIFUL!!! Thank good ness there are people who 'get it'.

who here hasn't (ETW excluded) "gotten it"

[kj]

KenWingJitsu,

I respect your POV. I agree that many practitioners, perhaps most of us, don't put our Wing Chun sufficiently to the test. I only confess a lack of belief in absolutes.

Where you write ...


Train against a resisting opponent who's fighting back, and you'll be able to fight against a resisting opponent who's fighting back. Don't, and you won't.

To be more accurate, I would say "Train against resisting opponents who fight back, and you increase your chances of success against another resisting opponent who's fighting back. Don't, and your odds of success are less, perhaps dramatically so." I am tedious for reasons. It's a statistical thing.

A goal of learning to fight may not be a person's only goal in life (hopefully not for most!). For some, moderation is applied not because fighting to learn and learning to fight is unimportant, but in order to avoid throwing one's life out of balance overall, whether due to responsibilities and obligations, health risks, relationships, values, or even in consideration of current progress on the learning curve.

Everyone pays their money and takes their chances, either way and to whatever degree. A considered choice doesn't in and of itself make a person unreasonable, nor does it automatically imply that a person does not wish to develop extraordinary fighting capabilities. We can all play the odds badly or just be unlucky - fighters, non-fighters, those approaching but not quite at extremes, or anything in between. So while there may be honest disagreement on how much is necessary or desirable, I see no cause for disrespect due to individual considerations.

Perhaps you don't believe in absolutes either, and are attempting to provide the balance. While I tend toward a moderate viewpoint of things (well, some things, LOL), I do find your posts motivating, despite their exuberance. If you do propose absolutes, then I suppose I do disagree with you somewhat. Context is everything. :)

But of course I am the silly one for discussions of this nature in such a forum anyway. So to appease the masses ...

Go! Go! Fight, Fight, FIGHT!!!! ;)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[EnterTheWhip]

I guess I just don't get it.

... Or perhaps it is all of you who don't.

[kj]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
I guess I just don't get it.

... Or perhaps it is all of you who don't.

What I get is that Wing Chun is not learned from sparring or fighting. If that's your point, I completely agree.

No doubt I still don't get it, huh? LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

Go! Go! Fight, Fight, FIGHT!!!!

Regards,
- Kathy Jo
------------------------------------------------

Kathy Jo-

In the escalating search for better defenses ultimately per
Hobbes-

the life of man is nasty, brutish and short.

The best street fighter I have ever known or seen finally
had a career ending rusty ice pick in his liver.
Until then he routinely outed grapplers, boxers, football players,
cowboys, oil field workers, farm hands and other streetfighters. The ice pick was from a paid hit man.
Vengeance for an earlier win.
Karma.

Joy

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by kj
What I get is that Wing Chun is not learned from sparring or fighting. If that's your point, I completely agree.
kj, that's not exactly my point, but I agree with the statement as well. I think the point that is being made by most on this thread is that testing one's skill via sparring or fighting is necessary to measure one's skill in Wing Chun. I completely disagree. Sparring has NO place in Wing Chun. I have sparred in my life, and have come to that conclusion.

I have no use for sparring in my training. It is a waste of my time, energy, and training, and above all, my Wing Chun.

[OdderMensch]

Sorry ETW (or should I say fann sau ;) ) but you're the only one on the thread specificly saying sparring is "harmful" to your WC training. I for one "moderately dissagree" with you. KWJ seems in the "foaming at the mouth radical dissagreement" catagory.

I didn't mean to misrepresent anyone.

I tend to see sparring as a helpful component to my WC training, but it's not the end all nor be all test of effectivness.

to you -


The "traditional drills and methods" ARE the fighting drills. Sparring simply undoes it all, regardless of how you look at it.

and KWJ's veiw on sparing?

It can be done and people should be willing to do this more instead of settling for being the laughing stock of the MA world.

I myself dont think we need a wake up call, nor a "reality check" We need to train our WC skills in the way we feel is best. If we are the "laughing stock" of the MA world, let them laugh, i'll keep practiceing while they bust a gut.

[S.Teebas]

I think we all agree that sparing is testing. So how often should we test compared to how much we learn?

I went back to my old school where we did a lot of sparing every night. All kinds, like close your eyes and get tackled form the back at full pace (many nights going home with sore necks from whiplash like effect), pretty hard contact, rarely leave with out bleeding mouth from cut lips, broken noses etc.. It was very 'reality focused' I guess some might say. And I definitely learnt some good tricks there.

But I began to think; imp doing so much testing and little improving! Anyway went back to this school and when I'm doing chi sau and sparing I can definitely notice the difference spending time on refining makes, well to me it did. At the end of the night the other guys who were at my same level at the time, are drenched in sweat and totally exhausted. I felt like I could keep rolling quite easily. For me personally time spent on refining made a difference. And I do believe WC, being a very meticulous system requires a lot of such attention.

I’m not saying I don’t spar, because I do. And being young I enjoy testing what i've learnt, but I think the seeming 'slow road' standing in front of the mirror doing forms all the time, is not as slow as it seems.

[KenWingJitsu]

I am glad this discussion is going in this direction for the most part......

I agree that many practitioners, perhaps most of us, don't put our Wing Chun sufficiently to the test. :) Amen



And if all you do is spar or fight, you won't build or apply the foundation and skills of the art you propose to practice. I am sure I never advocated "just sparring" and neglecting your skill development. The progression should be learn; drill; spar (under pressure).

and if all you do is spar, you become good at one thing, sparring. Again I'm not saying 'all' you should do is spar.....it should..must be part of your training. Being 'good' at sparring is far more desirable than only becoming good at drilling. Because well...sparring is as close to real fighting as you can possibly get.

I’m not saying I don’t spar, because I do. And being young I enjoy testing what i've learnt :) Amen. And so should we ALL.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by crimsonking
Let me ask, what your goal in sparring? and in fighting? How does this difference in attitude manifest itself?
Clearly, as the scale tips down in support of sparring, understanding of Wing Chun goes in the opposite direction.

[anerlich]

There is a WORLD of difference between sparring and effective reality-testing.

And how do YOU go about effective "reality-testing"? I'm not saying you're wrong, but you haven't exactly presented a case for your arguiment. Nor has ETW/WH.


I think it comes down to people confusing abstract with unrealistic.

That's a nice sound bite. Does it mean something? Elaborate please.

[hunt1]

What is your goal?

Learning WC for self defense then ETW is correct. Sparring not needed and can be detremental. Why? Because the goal of sparring in this case can be achieved through properly focused Chi sao and reality based drills. AH, What is the goal? The goal is to learn to relax the mind in a tense and stressful situation i.e. combat.

Learning WC with the idea of competion then you need to train for that . herefore you must spar to compete in sparring etc. you must learn to operate within the world of the competion. Still the goal is the same. Learn to relax the mind in a stressful situation.

Sparring often induces stress and therefore can work against learning WC.

However with all this said without fighting experience it will take a very good teacher to train students to be relaxed in a fight. Very few can do this. So for most sparring of some sort will have to do.

[yuanfen]

good overview hunt 1.
joy

[KenWingJitsu]

sparring is detrimental to wing chun development.
Sparring not needed and can be detremental. Why? Because the goal of sparring in this case can be achieved through properly focused Chi sao and reality based drills.

Can't you people read? lol. chi-sao is NOT sparring. what is a 'reality based drill'? If it involves someone REALLY TRYING TO ATTACK AND HIT YOU AND KEEP ON HITTING YOU AND TAKE YOU DOWN ETC ETC........then yeah, that's a 'reality based drill'. If it involves someone throwing a weak haymayker and stopping after the punch so that you can ton/pak/lop and make Bruce Lee noises,....then that is NOT a reality based drill. The first example I gave IS a form of sparring....the second is not. If you can't tell the difference,....God help you if oyu ever have to fight for real or defend yourself.


Let me ask, what your goal in sparring? and in fighting? How does this difference in attitude manifest itself?
In sparring, you aim to cope with the techniques and pressure of an AGGRESSIVE RESISTING, UNCOOPERATIVE OPPONENT WHO'S REALLY trying to harm you.

[OdderMensch]

are realy trying to hit me. I don't know in advance how or when. At the same time I am really trying to hit them.

SAYING CHI SAU IS NOT SPARING EVEN IN REALLY BIG PRINT does not make it so. (or not so)


If it involves someone throwing a weak haymayker and stopping after the punch so that you can ton/pak/lop and make Bruce Lee noises
anyone makeing bruce lee noises in our kwoon is sumarilly beaten. I have Si Dai who will throw weak punchs and I correct them on it. After a certain amount of skill is reached, all atack must be meant to hit. Otherwise you can't get the full benifit from any drill, Chi Sau session, or sparring match.


In sparring, you aim to cope with the techniques and pressure of an AGGRESSIVE RESISTING, UNCOOPERATIVE OPPONENT WHO'S REALLY trying to harm you.

In drills, if I don't stop an attack, it will hit me, and it might hurt, but lasting harm is not done. We've had our share of brusies & broken ribs but we keep it to a minimum for several reasons. One is Sifus insurance bills, another is that if I break the wrist of a training partner I lose that training partner till they heal. both of our teraining suffers as a result.

That being said we still have students that leave when they realize that kung fu is not a knitting circle, and this is long before the oportunity to spar comes into play.

Again you say Chi Sau is not sparring, but why not?

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by hunt1
Learning WC for self defense
No such thing.


Learning WC with the idea of competion
No such thing.

[anerlich]

Perhaps if you ask yourself the questions -

I did. But I wanted to hear *your* answers. And I've done some door work, BTW.

[S.Teebas]

What's your opinion then? (on the reason to learn WC)

[t_niehoff]

I'm coming into this thread late. TN

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by kj
What I get is that Wing Chun is not learned from sparring or fighting. If that's your point, I completely agree.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ETW wrote:

kj, that's not exactly my point, but I agree with the statement as well.

Certainly WCK is not fighting. But I think we need to start with an understanding of what WCK actually is -- and IME the "WCK system" is a certain specific approach toward fighting (not a collection of techniques although the techniques *can* give us an idea of the approach) and a means to train that approach. So I agree with KJ that "Wing Chun is not learned from sparring or fighting". However, WCK is a kuen faat (fighting method), or as I said, an approach one takes toward fighting and a means to train that approach. The level of our understanding and skill "in WCK" depends upon how well we can use the approach in what it was intended for -- fighting (not how well we can do the drills or the forms, etc., although our skill is developed from these things). Certainly there are good fighters that do WCK poorly (or not at all) -- and they tend to rely on their natural or developed physical attributes of strength, speed, etc. as do untrained fighters -- but IMO one can't be a good WCK practitioner without being able to fight well, i.e., apply the approach against resisiting opponents trying to defeat us. TN

The next question is how do we determine how well we can fight, i.e., apply the method? The drills, like chi sao, won't show us as they are cooperative by nature. We need to actually have a resisting opponent. And as fighting skill is relative (it depends on the two combatants), we can guage our skill level on our ability by our opponent (you may be able to make what you do work against an unskilled drunk but can you make it work against a trained, athletic, skilled MA?). Streetfighting or self-defense will not help us guage our level as there are too many variables, especially the level of our opponent. So IMO the only way to *measure our performance in actually using our method* is by fighting, even if with some restrictions, skilled, resisting opponents trying to defeat us. The necessity of *measuring our performance* is that it gives us information (that we otherwise wouldn't have) on our weakenesses and strengths, thereby permitting us to grow (adjust our training, etc.). TN

I think the point that is being made by most on this thread is that testing one's skill via sparring or fighting is necessary to measure one's skill in Wing Chun. I completely disagree. Sparring has NO place in Wing Chun. I have sparred in my life, and have come to that conclusion. ETW

I'm not a fan of "sparring" either -- since what most people mean by sparring is kickboxing with WCK tools. Since our approach is different in kind from boxing/kickboxing, sparring that way just leads one further off the path IMHO. Moreover, most folks "spar" with their own group which - because their group "does WCK" - limits their perspective (a WCK person won't shoot or bum rush or go crazy, etc.). I have found, though, that sparring-type drills can be useful in one's development. In the end, though, we need to measure our performance (see above) and there is only one way -- by fighting. TN

I have no use for sparring in my training. It is a waste of my time, energy, and training, and above all, my Wing Chun. ETW

One sparring-type drill we use regularly is having a "feeder" wearing gear (headgear with the iron face protector, body padding, gloves, etc.) be the aggressor and attack the "receiver" (who is not wearing protective gear) with anything (non-WCK punches, rushes, grabbing, shoots, etc.) and continually (he never stops attacking, even while getting hit, etc.). The intensity of the "feeder" changes with the skill level of the person facing him. The drill provides clarity; and afterward, we critique the performance from a WCK perspective. As you see, this isn't patty-cake, kickboxing stuff but also isn't "sparring". TN

Terence

[KenWingJitsu]

the "WCK system" is a certain specific approach toward fighting
Absolutely correct!
The next question is how do we determine how well we can fight, i.e., apply the method? The drills, like chi sao, won't show us as they are cooperative by nature. We need to actually have a resisting opponent.
BEAUTIFUL!!!!! PErfect statement, and my point for creatign this thread!!!!!
Sparring has NO place in Wing Chun.
Er...you lost me on this one which of course I disagree.

One sparring-type drill we use regularly is having a "feeder" wearing gear (headgear with the iron face protector, body padding, gloves, etc.) be the aggressor and attack the "receiver" (who is not wearing protective gear) with anything (non-WCK punches, rushes, grabbing, shoots, etc.) and continually (he never stops attacking, even while getting hit, etc.). The intensity of the "feeder" changes with the skill level of the person facing him. The drill provides clarity; and afterward, we critique the performance from a WCK perspective. As you see, this isn't patty-cake, kickboxing stuff but also isn't "sparring".
Now......we're talking....kinda. This is what I meant in my earlier posts by "scenario sparring". That's what it's called and it in fact IS form of sparring. Whatever you may call it, you are fighting against an aggressive resisting opponent who's fighting back, and for all intents and purposes, without getting too caught up on semantics, this IS sparring. And I train that way also. I would love to hear more on what you do. IMO if more WCK peeps did this, then.....we take a HUGE step into facing realities of combat. Where do you train at & under what lineage?

[OdderMensch]

Its something I do sometimes, but just to clear things up.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sparring has NO place in Wing Chun.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Er...you lost me on this one which of course I disagree.

you missed this in his posting


Sparring has NO place in Wing Chun. I have sparred in my life, and have come to that conclusion. ETW

he was responding to something "Whippy the Wonder Poster" said.

t_niehoff

that sounds like a good drill BTW. We do something similar called a "triangle" One guy in the middle faces two or more people one after the other (two attacking at the same time is a whole other drill) With the idea being not to speed up the attacks but to decrease the amount of time between attacks. So as not to give the WC guy time to think about whats comeing next.

This would fit under KWJs definition of "scenario sparring" what he has yet to answer is why Chi Sau is not "honorable combat" style sparring.

[KenWingJitsu]

This would fit under KWJs definition of "scenario sparring" what he has yet to answer is why Chi Sau is not "honorable combat" style sparring.
I actually answered this before. Chi sao is not 'sparring' because you are starting in an artificial posiitn; one which NEVER occurs in any fight situation. Secondly, the chi-sao itself is predetermined...in a pattern...roll left, roll right, roll left, roll right....etc. patterns do NOT exist in sparring.

[OdderMensch]

I really didn't think you answered this before.


Chi sao is not 'sparring' because you are starting in an artificial posiitn; one which NEVER occurs in any fight situation

Again, I see no fight situation that begins with the donning of gloves, nor a touching of gloves. These are the trapings of "honorable combat" sparing. IMO the "artifical begining" is not what makes it NOT sparing.


Secondly, the chi-sao itself is predetermined...in a pattern...roll left, roll right, roll left, roll right....etc. patterns do NOT exist in sparring.

Now we're getting somwhere , maybe I missed this point in your earlier posts. As you say Seung Chi Sau begins in the Luk Sau rollling pattern. However that pattern is broken by either person attacking. If both side are constatly attacking and defending, would it then be sparing? if not, why not?

[t_niehoff]

OdderMensch,

IMO chi sao (like lop sao or san sao) is a drill to train certain, *limited aspects* of fighting skill, and in doing so other aspects are intentionally ignored so that we can focus more clearly on those things that we're training; the drills are not fighting -- not even a "mock fight" -- nor are they "combat ready." Since both partners are doing a drill and trying to do the same things, the drill doesn't involve us dealing with someone that doesn't care about "doing the drill properly" (as our chi sao partner does) and who intentionally resists, doesn't care about sticking, uses "things" that we in WCK typically eschew (rushes to bear hug, shoots, crazy-hands, wrestle, etc.), and only cares about taking our head off by any means (i.e., fighting). Also, a very important factor is the intensity level (and I'm not referring to just speed) in chi sao is nothing like that of fighting. And as our skills are intensity-relative (we may think we can "make it work" cruising at 30 mph but fall apart at 75 mph) -- changing the intensity, changes things (if they work, how they work, etc.) quite a bit; those IME can't fully be appreciated from an drill. But don't take my word for it, I suggest you go outside your kwoon and have a few challenge fights and then see if you think chi sao is anything like fighting. TN

Terence

[KenWingJitsu]

As you say Seung Chi Sau begins in the Luk Sau rollling pattern. However that pattern is broken by either person attacking. If both side are constatly attacking and defending, would it then be sparing? if not, why not?
t_neihoff has already aluded beautifully to this also.

"drills are not fighting -- not even a "mock fight" -- nor are they "combat ready." Since both partners are doing a drill and trying to do the same things, the drill doesn't involve us dealing with someone that doesn't care about "doing the drill properly"

If both sides are constantly attacking & defending from chi-sao, all you need to do is remove the chi-sao altoghether and have both sides attack and defend WITHOUT the chi-sao, and you have "sparring". The lack of a pattern makes it unpredictable, aggressive and full of resistance, not co-operation. Sparring replicates this lack of co-operation FROM THE BEGINING. Touching gloves & going at it 'kickboxer style is also another form of sparring, but the 'format' is slightly different from the 'scenario sparring'.

[YungChun]

Sparring means mock fighting. Mock fighting means that although the other person is trying to take your head off he doesn't want to kill you or really hurt you. What happens when we mock fight is very different from what exists in Chi-Sao.

First of all in a mock fight or most real fights or self defense situations you will not be given a bridge. If you don't know what that means then go back to class.

Since you don't have a bridge guess what you'll need to rely on? Your eyes, your sense of distance your footwork, from outside. You will have no feeling, no contact, no energy nothing except a nut standing in front of you moving around, using fakes and all kinds of weird movements that you have NEVER seen before. This erratic opponent will become a blur of movement as his MULTIPLE attacks come at you. Is that a fist coming? Hmmm I'll just use Pak Sao - Whoops he just shot low and has you in a single leg takedown - oh well guess you need more Chi-Sao huh? Good luck!

Well here comes your fight partner, what are you gonna do? Gonna Chi-Sao him? You got no shot! You will need to use your footwork and sense of distance and timing to make a bridge. Have you ever done that? Have you ever done that with someone trying to take your head off with real power, with fakes, with broken timing, doing combos while YOU are under the stress of attack? Remember today's warriors including law enforcement and even martial artists are learning that stress training is critical. Aside from the variation in distance and attack you must also learn how to handle the adrenal dump. Try a FAST defense class or Bulletman Test and see how you do.

If you haven't worked these things then you better hope to get lucky when it happens for real, because that's the only thing that's going to save your butt.

There is a progression in WCK. We should all do the drills and work on forms, Chi-Sao and Long arm Chi-Sao and Lat Sao but there is more. Indeed freestyle 'sparring' or attack drilling is not just a test - it is the final drill - the last place to discover and fix your errors before you get to the street - where you will be given no chances. If you haven't gotten it by then you may pay with your life or the life of a loved one.

YC

[Marky]

Hi everyone,

I agree with YungChun that in a fight situation you do not BEGIN with a bridge. However, in order for a fight to occur, you will be GIVEN a bridge when your opponent tries to hit you. And even if he DOES hit you, you'll have contact from there, but I imagine it would be hard to use that =). Regardless, you shouldn't have to be given a bridge, you should try to hit the guy and see what happens. As soon as you have a bridge, it's chi sao that will have given you the sensitivity to move right away and not stop hitting. If the guy blocks, pak or lop and go from there, but DON'T stand back and think "what's he gonna do?"

While I do believe that sparring CAN BE a good way to test yourself, when it comes to LEARNING, I have found chi sao to be vastly superior. As this thread goes on, more and more people are implying that chi sao doesn't teach you how to fight. And that's the problem. Two people can practice chi sao together, one can be self-critical and learn a lot "just from rolling", while the other can learn nothing. On the few occasions I've sparred I could see that almost every technique I used was from chi sao practice.

"This erratic opponent will become a blur of movement as his MULTIPLE attacks come at you. Is that a fist coming? Hmmm I'll just use Pak Sao - Whoops he just shot low and has you in a single leg takedown - oh well guess you need more Chi-Sao huh? Good luck!" YC

As for the wing chun guy in that story, he deserves to lose. If he can't think on his feet, he should stay on the ground for a while. But I can tell you a REAL story about a wing chun guy versus a BJJ guy. After the WC guy hit him lightly (rules, rules) three times (with gloves), the BJJ guy decided to shoot in and take him down. The WC guy elbowed him in the face, end of takedown. And it's all thanks to Chi Sao. That was one of the two times I've ever sparred, so I hadn't learned it from sparring.

"Have you ever done that (Chi Sao'd) with someone trying to take your head off with real power, with fakes, with broken timing, doing combos while YOU are under the stress of attack?" YC

Yes to all four. I just hit them. That IS chi sao. Although admittedly, I wasn't very stressed about the attack. And the broken timing one didn't take place in a real fight, so maybe I shouldn't include it.

"There is a progression in WCK. We should all do the drills and work on forms, Chi-Sao and Long arm Chi-Sao and Lat Sao but there is more. Indeed freestyle 'sparring' or attack drilling is not just a test - it is the final drill - the last place to discover and fix your errors before you get to the street - where you will be given no chances. If you haven't gotten it by then you may pay with your life or the life of a loved one." YC

I've been in more street altercations than sparring matches, so I feel inclined to disagree. Chi Sao isn't something you just "learn to do", then move on to something else. I've been practicing chi sao for three years, and I still screw up in the details (pushing slightly to the side, not drilling inward enough, etc.), and I WILL screw up for years to come. Wing Chun "masters" screw it up too, but some of us aren't good enough to pick up on it.

If you really don't trust Wing Chun to save your ass, sparring is a great way to get guts, if you go in with the right mindset.

Just my experiences.

[t_niehoff]

Hi Marky,

Just a few things . . .

Marky wrote:

I agree with YungChun that in a fight situation you do not BEGIN with a bridge. However, in order for a fight to occur, you will be GIVEN a bridge when your opponent tries to hit you. And even if he DOES hit you, you'll have contact from there, but I imagine it would be hard to use that =). M

The kuen kuit tells us "mo kiu jee jouu kiu" (if there is no bridge, erect one) and "yau kiu gor kiu" (have bridge, cross it). Much wisdom is in the kuit. TN

Regardless, you shouldn't have to be given a bridge, you should try to hit the guy and see what happens. M

IMO, in WCK's approach we never "try and hit the guy" - hitting is incidental and with non-intention (my hand goes out to 'ask the way', if my hand is not intercepted then it hits. ). As such, power isn't exerted *through* (by) the punch into the target until after contact is made, i.e., we don't exert early (before contact) as then our power remains in the arm. This is *one reason* why WCK's punching method (and power generation) is unlike boxing or kickboxing. TN

As soon as you have a bridge, it's chi sao that will have given you the sensitivity to move right away and not stop hitting. M

From my perspective, a great deal of our "sensitivity" is gained from more than chi sao. Also, IMO chi sao is not a "hitting drill" and there is much, much more to our method in offense (or even chi sao) than to "not stop hitting" (like controlling the opponent); often our offense may not even involve a strike. Also I've seen folks continue to hit an opponent - who was unaffected - as they were wiped with a counter-strike. Personally, I don't favor striking until after I have control of the opponent. TN

If the guy blocks, pak or lop and go from there, but DON'T stand back and think "what's he gonna do?" M

Again, from my perspective no one can "block" a 'WCK punch' since it doesn't begin until after contact with the target. While my opponent can do something - like apply pressure or put up an obstruction - to my (asking) hand, since it is a mun sao anything he does is simply his reaction to my question (now he's behind the timing) which permits me to ask another question (and hit if goes unanswered). TN

While I do believe that sparring CAN BE a good way to test yourself, when it comes to LEARNING, I have found chi sao to be vastly superior. M

I agree to some extent. IMO chi sao is an exercise designed to develop some very important aspects of WCK's approach to fighting -- more than "sensitivity" which is only an attribute that allows us to effectively implement those aspects, and is a very efficient platform in that regard (it would be very difficult to develop them just from fighting, for instance). But those aspects, including "sensitivity", aren't by far IMO the whole enchilada. If we don't appreciate what those aspects/skills are - like sticking, for an obvious one - and how they are used (when, where, why, how) in fighting, we miss a great deal from the exercise IMO. TN

Two people can practice chi sao together, one can be self-critical and learn a lot "just from rolling", while the other can learn nothing. M

A very good point (about two people getting different things from the same exercise). TN

Chi Sao isn't something you just "learn to do", then move on to something else. I've been practicing chi sao for three years, and I still screw up in the details (pushing slightly to the side, not drilling inward enough, etc.), and I WILL screw up for years to come. Wing Chun "masters" screw it up too, but some of us aren't good enough to pick up on it. M

I've been doing chi sao for over 20 years now and also still "screw up" and will undoubtably continue to do so. This is simply the nature of any physical activity (even Tiger Woods misses a put now and again. ;) ) and the nature of skill development (although they types of "screw ups" should change as we grow). And I agree with your last point -- skill is relative (to our opponent).

Terence

[Marky]

Hi,

"IMO, in WCK's approach we never "try and hit the guy" - hitting is incidental and with non-intention."TN

"Also, IMO chi sao is not a "hitting drill" and there is much, much more to our method in offense (or even chi sao) than to "not stop hitting" (like controlling the opponent)"TN

"Again, from my perspective no one can "block" a 'WCK punch' since it doesn't begin until after contact with the target. While my opponent can do something - like apply pressure or put up an obstruction - to my (asking) hand, since it is a mun sao anything he does is simply his reaction to my question (now he's behind the timing) which permits me to ask another question (and hit if goes unanswered)."TN

"If we don't appreciate what those aspects/skills are - like sticking, for an obvious one - and how they are used (when, where, why, how) in fighting, we miss a great deal from the exercise IMO. " TN


I agree with everything you said. I just have a nasty habit of oversimplifying when I write.

[KenWingJitsu]

Just added Yung Chun to my list of people who "get it".

[YungChun]

I'm love how people write in between the lines one writes. I never said you stop doing Chi-Sao and 'move on.'

The fact is that entering is the hardest part of the job for a WC guy. Depending on who you are dealing with you may indeed be able to just walk in and punch the guy - boom - he's dead. The problem is when you fight someone who isn't drunk or completely inept. Then you will have your hands full. There are a world of variations on that theme and Chi-Sao doesn't cover a lot of what happens outside of sticking range.

The purpose of fight drilling is not to replace the traditional training: Its purpose is to bring it to life and fix what's broken. If you are going to make mistakes in Chi-Sao then you can bet the 'I will just extend my hand...and ask a question...' is not going to go like the story the master told you. Find your mistakes in Chi-Sao and the find others in fight drills - but do find them.

This point cannot be denied. The more and varied experience you have the better you will be by far. Who would train to swim without getting wet? 'Well, we've trained swimming movements and should we ever need to swim we know what to do' :o

Let's say you were cloned 3 months ago. Your clone was sent to fight or die in bloody underground no rules fighting matches. He lost 15 fights and won 15 fights but he did survive.

Now he's back (all healed) and he wants to kick your ass! How do you think you will do? Are you going to just put out your Man Sao and see what happens? Do you think you have a chance? Do you really think you'll have a chance - or are you starting to see that using his expereince against your INEXPERIENCE will very likely result in him tearing your head off in nothing flat?

How real is what your doing? Have you tested the waters? Have you tasted the tea you keep serving us?

Hey KenWingJitsu: Let's start a thread about WCK Entering Concepts against various fighting types.

YC

[OdderMensch]

t_niehoff & YungChun! That was what I was looking for. Sparring is a mock fight between two (or more) people where no cooperation is implied save "not kill each other"

Mostly when people say "sparring" they mean, get out in a ring or on a mat and have at it. Thus what I mean when I say "spar" pick a time limit (or ending signal) arrange some basic safety precautions and go!

When sparring becomes, 'defeat this(or these) spontaneous attack(s)' its more a drill than a match. In this regard we "spar" from day one at our school. We do one "drill" in our school called "touching hands" where two practitioners touch forward bridge to forward bridge and then exchange spontaneous attacks. I have done this with people from my own school and with outside artists. Some of the best people I have ever "touched hands" have never 'sparred' in the normal use of the word. I have.

KWJ's posts always contained 'buzzwords' like reality check, or pressure test, or do you 'know'? These, I feel can lead down a dark path of false security. I know people who spar very well whom I 'think' would get creamed in a "real fight" I know people who spar like crap (IMO) but whom I 'think' would do fine in most real life situations. I do not see sparing as the 'end-all-be-all-you-must-do-this-well-to-live' test of kung fu. How do I know my skills will work? Truthfully, I don't. I may never see an attacker, I might get killed by that first hit, I might get shot, who knows? I hone my skills as finely as I can, while remembering what happens to an overly sharpened knife.

Bridging skills are what I really focus on when I do spar! as well as dealing with fakes, timing and the shock of getting hit. The non cooperative nature of it is good too. I find the hardest thing to deal with is a non-committed offense, because too often I will not bridge properly and take advantage it

[YungChun]

Originally posted by OdderMensch
I find the hardest thing to deal with is a non-committed offense

You can say that again.

WC is much easier to apply when the opponent is committed.

We are trained to attack the real attack as well as the fake attack. But this is oh, so much easier to say than to do. Make a small error in distance and you are nailed. This is where the fight drilling keeps it real. How does WCK deal with these variables? The kinds of elements that at least seem to not be addressed in Chi-Sao/Lat Sao. Truth be told these are the kinds of issues that should be addressed in a forum like this by some actual master level people - wonder if there are any fitting that description around here - with actual experience, that is.

YC

[yuanfen]

Make a small error in distance and you are nailed. This is where the fight drilling keeps it real. How does WCK deal with these variables? The kinds of elements that at least seem to not be addressed in Chi-Sao/Lat Sao.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
An over generalization and limited by this medium.
Depends on your chi sao learning and experience.

[wingchunalex]

i totally agree with you about how very few wing chun people sparr. I've gone to a tornament in cleveland for about 5 years, and i've only ever seen 1 person from wing chun sparr one year and 1 person sparr another year. 1 year there were about 25 wing chun people at the tornament doing chi sau and only 1 person that wasn't from my school sparred, and there was only 3 people there from my school. its sad. wing chun people just don't sparr enough.

Yes my school and i sparr. we do sparring in class at least every saturday, and usually during the week we stay after class to sparr some. we do a few different kinds of sparring, we go slow, moderate, fast, and then full contact with gloves. we compete in tournaments and also individually sparr people from other styles and other schools on our own.

I personally think w.c. people a lot of the time spend too much time theorizing wing chun, so then they expect things to work perfectly and they don't when you first try to use them. so then because because people haven't put their time in to practicing and actually using the techniques in sparring even if they don't work at first but try to work the bugs out, people just forget about forcing themselves to use things other than chain punching and pak sau.

so i definately think w.c. people need to spend at least as much time sparring as they do doing chi sau, and i don't think that happens.

I mean no disrespect by what i've said, its just a concern i see. just something for us to refelct on. we all say wing chun is a really effective art, but it can't be so only in theory.

[KenWingJitsu]

so i definately think w.c. people need to spend at least as much time sparring as they do doing chi sau, and i don't think that happens.
Welcome to my list wingchunalex. Sounds like your school is a great school. More people who "get it". Cool. :D

[wingchunalex]

i am really surprized how respectful and un emotionally driven this thread is. i expected to read a lot of insults. ITS REALLY GREAT THAT PEOPLE ARE RESPECTFULLY DISCUSSING, i learned that lesson the hard way.

just to clarify- on sparring as much as chi sau, i'm not saying that beginners should do this or people just starting to learn chi sau.

[bougeac]

totally agree with most comments, i think a lot of wing chun guys get beaten in REAL fights because they only train against wing chun people/wing chun structure/energy...

last nite i did some cross guard work with my students and the drill was simple, one person try to keep good wing chun structure while the other attacks using lots of aggression/strength and non wing chun energy/structure...

the drill bears lots of fruit and definately makes you think long and hard about where you need to tweak your training...

my experiences in training in this manner ultimately end up in saying that as long as you keep good BASIC structure and keep your wing chun as clean and simple as possible that it works pretty well against non-cooperation..

but this skill is AQUIRED and will not automatically happen for you just because youre good at chi-sao/lop sao.

chris

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by bougeac
totally agree with most comments, i think a lot of wing chun guys get beaten in REAL fights because they only train against wing chun people/wing chun structure/energy...

Wing chun guys get beaten because of any of the following:

a) they do not understand the essence/purpose/direction of Wing Chun movement
b) they do not understand the drills fully, and therefore
c) undermine the drills
d) they do not understand the purpose of chi sau, and therefore
e) undermine chi sau
f) they believe sparring is important for improving /testing Wing Chun
g) they do not understand the purpose of the forms, and therefore
h) undermine forms , and therefore
i) perform the forms incorrectly, further supporting the lack of understanding of the forms
j) they are 2 dimensional thinkers
k) they put an emotional value on fighting
l) they have a sifu that falls under any of the above, and therefore can't help but lose in an attempt to be as good as such a sifu who fall under the above

[KenWingJitsu]

Denial; Ain't just a river in Egypt......

[EnterTheWhip]

exactly

[OdderMensch]

I was just thinking the same thing.

[bougeac]

as a concept based art (which it is) wing chun is brilliant, the concepts of economy of motion, centre line control etc are great
but....

a person in the street doesnt give a sh** if you do wing chun (or any other art for that matter) theyre not bothered about whether your good at chi sao or lop sau or whatever ,their intent is to tear your head off...

chi sau,forms and drills are all tools to bring the art alive and expose you to how it all works but if you really think that just because youre good at chi sau/drills/forms means you wont get beaten in a real fight youre mistaken...

and by the way, how can sparring "undermine" the effectiveness of the art, if anything ,its the other way round (or are we going to go back to the old chestnut of, sparring will just "contaminate" youre wing chun...).

the only way to prepare yourself (even remotely) for the utter chaos and adrenaline overload of a real fight is to put your skills under some form of pressure, if you were to just train for say 5 years in a sealed room just doing drills and chi sau/forms training then went outside into the real world and fought a half decent street fighter do you really think you stand a chance!!

this approach is like sitting in your lounge learning how to drive a car using a videotape as a guide, telling you where to put your hands and feet then after a few months getting into a car and trying to drive on the motorway...

as bruce lee once said, "the only way to learn how to swim is to get wet".

[Marky]

Hi everyone,


"this approach is like sitting in your lounge learning how to drive a car using a videotape as a guide, telling you where to put your hands and feet then after a few months getting into a car and trying to drive on the motorway..." B

Agreed, but one can just as easily claim that sparring to prepare for a fight is like learning to drive in a normal fashion to prepare for a stunt driving test. It's all relative, but IMO none of it is wrong. M

"a person in the street doesnt give a sh** if you do wing chun (or any other art for that matter) theyre not bothered about whether your good at chi sao or lop sau or whatever ,their intent is to tear your head off..." B

Also important to mention that if you're going to fight, you should be able to think the same way as the streetfighter. But IMO there is a great difference between being good at chi sao and thinking "chi sao will save me", and being good at chi sao and thinking "chi sao will help me use this guy's face as traction." M

"Denial; Ain't just a river in Egypt......" KWJ

Bearing in mind that part f) in ETW's post is the reason for this thread, I don't think any wing chun guy (or girl), whether they advocate sparring or not, would deny that every other point is a legitimate reason that we lose fights. However, like Bougeac said, if you do spar, and only with wing chun people, you can be lulled into complacency. I agree strongly with this. M

"theyre not bothered about whether your good at chi sao" B

True without question. But I have very strict guidelines for what I think makes someone "good at chi sao". Someone who's good at chi sao is drilling forward constantly. They stick to a person who occupies the centerline. When the opponent doesn't give enough/any energy to neutralize, he/she goes straight in without a moment of hesitation. When his opponent leaves the centerline, he/she goes straight in. When the opponent occupies the centerline, he/she will change the centerline so that it is now occupied by him/her. He must be able to do this without any form of hesitation or "concious thought". His skills in sensitivity and sticking must be equal in both the tactile and visual domains in order to accomplish all of these things. The one skill necessary for a fight that doesn't come along with this is aggressive power, although hopefully they train that as well in their own way. M

IMO, as soon as contact is initiated in a fight, you're in chi sao, whether the opponent knows it or not. If they push your arm across, you should be able to create a new line and hit. If they don't even occupy the line (because they throw a haymaker, etc.), you should be hitting them already. I think that it's up to the individual practitioner (or his/her teacher) to decide whether sparring is necessary to learn these things.

[black and blue]

Where I train we have what we call Feeding Techniques. This is one-step, two-step, three-step etc sparring.

The attacks are completely random (unless we've elected to work on a particular attack), and can be hooks, straights, jabs etc. Some might be to the face, others to the stomach or ribs. When you start out, you go slow and easy, and as you progress, you really throw the punches, palms, kicks etc. (No pads are used so we only go hard if both parties agree to do so)

For us, this is a 'form' of sparring. We're using Wing Chun to deal with random, heavy attacks from a variety of distances (the action might start at 5 feet away, it might start at 2 feet away).

Someone posted earlier about people getting knackered/tired when sparring, and I got the impression that sparring for them was a little like the Karate method. i.e. pads on, a few minutes of continous conflict.

I've seen this done before, and the reason I don't like it is a question of range. When we use our Feeding Techniques, the attacker is trying to punch through your face. If you don't move you get hit :). The counter attacks are usually hits to the chest or a palm strike pulled at the last moment - in both cases we have to be in range to drive our counter attacks deep.

But with the sparring I've seen elsewhere, both parties throw out punches but the range is off. When they do get a hit it barely makes contact - they look out of range and often the sparring escalates into a kind of skip-in-with-a-light-attack-and-then-quickly-skip-out-again.

It's hard on this thread to work out who advocates what in terms of sparring and what it means to them. :(

My description of our Feeding Techniques are what I define as Sparring. How do you guys define it/what do you mean by it?

[wingchunalex]

I disagree with enter the whip's f, g, h, and I, points. I believe that sparring is a test of your skill with wing chun, its not 100 percent, but in a real fight everything is uncertain.

sparring is important in letting you have some idea whether or not you can apply techniques under pressure and stress. If you can't do tan da in sparring then you certainly can't do tan da in a real fight. same thing with techniques like lop sau, or kwan sau.

sparring need to be with your class mates, and against other styles. the "sparring" called feeding seems useful too, though i haven't done that much (i would consider feeding more of a drill than sparring, but no need to split hairs ).

---------
on the issue of forms, at my school forms are not focused on. we learn them and practice them. but they are not the be all and end all of understanding wing chun in the way we look at it. its more important to practice drills, chi sau, and sparring- so that you can learn to apply techniques under stress and uncertainty- than it is to spend the majority of our time doing the forms and analysing them. i mean no disrespect, just thought i would through out there the way we do things at my school.

--------

there are a number of ways to do sparring. one way is to go slowly with classmates so that both can practice applying techniques they have been learning. another is to go at a moderate pace with a little more power to learn how to apply techniques you have learned under a moderate amount of pressure but not so much that you feel like if you make a mistake you will get your head knocked off. and then there is hard and fast with classmates, this gets you used to the mental and physical stress. there is also kickboxing type sparring, this isn't too suited for wing chun practice, but very ounce in a while it can be enjoyable and a learning experience. there is point sparring (the kind found in tournaments). wing chun people should be able to do this, though it is no test of real fighting skill, it at least tests your defence, and it can be a fun experience going to tornaments, wing chun can adapt to the rules. then there is the slow moderate and fast sparring i mentioned above that is done with classmates, this can be done against other stylist so that one can get used to attacks comming at you in a different manner and having to deal with non-wing chun defences to wing chun attacks.

all these types of sparring are helpful to wing chun people i think in some way. but moderate speed and power sparring against fellow students and against other stylist is nessecary to knowing whether or not you can possibly really apply techinques like tan da, and lop sau.

I like the idea of this feeding "sparring", it sounds benificial. its good to practice against "crazy style", but i think it needs to be a extra to sparring with classmates and with other stylists.

this is all just my approach to things, i hope its useful, or at least makes us think. thanks everyone.:D

[yuanfen]

wingchunalex sez:on the issue of forms, at my school forms are not focused on. we learn them and practice them. but they are not the be all and end all of understanding wing chun in the way we look at it. its more important to practice drills, chi sau, and sparring- so that you can learn to apply techniques under stress and uncertainty- than it is to spend the majority of our time doing the forms and analysing them. i mean no disrespect, just thought i would through out there the way we do things at my school.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doing the forms correctly and improving on doing them is an important part of wing chun, Drills are important too for sharpening the motions. Then there is the proper chi sao.
Emphasizing the techniques without the other foundations can give you bad habits.

Not going theough a solid curriculum of wing chun can lead to drifting away from the art. No problem- thats what many are doing these days. It can result in changing what is not understood.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by yuanfen

Not going theough a solid curriculum of wing chun can lead to drifting away from the art. No problem- thats what many are doing these days. It can result in changing what is not understood. (emphasis, Grendel)
Hi Yuanfen,

Amen. Can I get an Amen? Hence the preponderance of karate wing chun schools.

Regards,

[kj]

Originally posted by Grendel

Hi Yuanfen,

Amen. Can I get an Amen? Hence the preponderance of karate wing chun schools.

Regards,

Yes, Amen.

It is a dilemma with an imbalance of sparring (or fighting). It can (and I believe often does) unwittingly lead one ****her away from Wing Chun rather than toward it. Especially when out of proportion relative to a person's skill development in Wing Chun.

Just as those who fail to objectively assess their skill would do well to consider KWJ's viewpoint, I believe there are many who would benefit from contemplation or further inquiry into ETW's perspective lest they miss out on Wing Chun.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[S.Teebas]

How do poeple expect to pass the test against other people when they can't past the test on their own?

[bougeac]

without carefull study and analysis of the forms and the motions contained within them, all you will have is what i call "empty" wing chun...

these are the guys who get a black sash in 3 years and start teaching people who dont know any better, their "external" wing chun which from my experience tends to be very shallow interpretations of the forms, poorly executed drills and DREADFULL chi-sao...

youre better off taking kick boxing than this stuff as it will get you killed if you try to apply it...

[yuanfen]

Bougeac- agree with you on " empty" wing chun and 3 year black sashes teaching and the dangers involved. Mass marketing creates bad hamburgers. Then you add ketchup for enhancement.

[wingchunalex]

Please don't assume things about my school (by my school I mean the one I attend) and myself. you haven't met me or seen my wing chun and you haven't been to my school. I don't think I've given enough information for people to judge my school. We practice the forms, and we do them correctly. I would say that forms are about 15% to 20% of our practice. Drills are about 50%. and sparring of different kinds is 25%. All I'm saying is that our approch to knowlege about wing chun and the use of wing chun is not learned solely through the forms. How to use wing chun in its most effective way for the individual is learned first from our sifu and wing chun theory, and secondly through personal experience. We see the forms as teaching you how to do the techniques correctly. how to apply them is learned from our sifu. the only form I see as really showing you how to apply techniques is the dummy form.

we don't just do balistic all out sparring all the time. we are not solely of the mentality "well can I use it now in a fight" (when I first learned bong sau it didn't seem very combat effective, but now after experience with it i see that it is for example).

The focus of our school is having good technique in application, not only in the forms and drills.

Please don't assume that my school is a fastfood wing chun school. And please don't assume that we are wild with our techniques and have poor chi sau. and don't understand wing chun.

All I'm saying is this is our approach. I know a lot of places focus on the forms and spend a great amount of time doing them compared to my school, I know a lot of places forcus a lot of chi sau and spend more time doing that than we do. We all have different and valid approaches. I was just sharing mine. The idea I wanted to be stressed in my other post is that sparring is important to knowing if you can possibly apply your techniques in a confrontation. I ment no disrespect to other people's approches, I just didn't happen to agree with them. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Grendel
Amen. Can I get an Amen? Hence the preponderance of karate wing chun schools. I'll give you an Amen and a Hallelujah! :)

I guess that means I'm not on the list! :eek:

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by wingchunalex
If you can't do tan da in sparring then you certainly can't do tan da in a real fight. same thing with techniques like lop sau, or kwan sau. If you can't do a tan da in chi sao, can you do it in sparring? Or is it the other way around????

Matrix

[KenWingJitsu]

One more time.

Sparring = uncooperative, resisting opponent.
Sparring = no pre-set patterns
Sparring = alive!

"Fighting" = same as above.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
One more time.

Sparring = uncooperative, resisting opponent.
Sparring = no pre-set patterns
Sparring = alive!

"Fighting" = same as above.

While I agree with all the above, chi sao would fit that definition, so you haven't differentiated chi sao, fighting, and sparring. And not by the way, fighting does not = sparring or vice versa. Hence, I see no advantage of make-believe fighting (= sparring). Chi sao is Wing Chun preparation for fighting.

Regards,

[EnterTheWhip]

posted by bougeac
last nite i did some cross guard work with my students Wow! 5 years training and you're a teacher?


posted by bougeac
chi sau,forms and drills are all tools to bring the art alive and expose you to how it all worksThe chi sau, forms and drills are alive in themselves. They are what make Wing Chun, which is alive in itself. It is not alive in sparring. Sparring is where Wing Chun dies.


posted by bougeac
but if you really think that just because youre good at chi sau/drills/forms means you wont get beaten in a real fight youre mistaken...There is no such thing as being "good" at these things. How you train the above is a reflection of your understanding of Wing Chun. Taking your Wing Chun to sparring is simply a reflection of a lack of understanding.


posted by bougeac
how can sparring "undermine" the effectiveness of the art Your right. Sparring cannot undermine the art. It is simply a reflection of the lack of understanding. It is the sparrers who misrepresent the art.


posted by S.Teebas
How do poeple expect to pass the test against other people when they can't past the test on their own?Amen.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Secondly, the chi-sao itself is predetermined...in a pattern...roll left, roll right, roll left, roll right....etc. patterns do NOT exist in sparring. This is not chi sao, IMO, it's "rolling". This is just the earliest level of progression towards chi sao. Where's the running of hands, the stepping, the techniques and timing, etc......?? Chi sao is definitely alive, but you need to make it so. Your mileage may vary.


Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
One more time.I have no objection to your sparring. If you feel that you need it to prove something to yourself, then knock yourself out. Just don't fool yourself into believing that it's a substitute for "real" fighting, and more importantly don't force your rules on those of us who choose another path. You can say it "one more time" if you like, but it changes nothing.

"Strike when you should,
Don't strike when you should not,
If you can't strike, do not force it."

Peace.

Matrix

[John Weiland]

I can understand fighting.

I understand full-contact--just put on the gloves and go for it.

I understand chi sao.

What I can't understand is where to draw the line in Wing Chun "sparring." Is it playing tag?

Is it fish or fowl? It's like saying I want to test my tackling power in tag rugby. If you want to test your tackle, put on the pads and play football.

If you want to develop a precision art like Wing Chun, then you don't progress by sloppy powerful techniques driven by muscle. Winning at sparring sounds like losing in the long run to me. I don't want to drive you into the ground with one technique; I want to keep hitting you until you drop. If you don't understand the difference, then you don't understand Wing Chun.

Certain folks always want to change the system before they understand it. Real Kung Fu takes patience and months and years of faith in your sifu.

Just my two cents.

Regards,

[kj]

Matrix wrote:

This is not chi sao, IMO, it's "rolling". This is just the earliest level of progression towards chi sao. Where's the running of hands, the stepping, the techniques and timing, etc......?? Chi sao is definitely alive, but you need to make it so. Your mileage may vary.

Agreed. Chi sau encompasses a lot more than poon sau or luk sau alone. Lat/lut sau and gor/gwar sau ... extend chi sau to a very broad range.

I would add that I also understand working with hands outside of Wing Chun. But even then, I understand it in the context of training or fighting; "sparring" remains something muddled and imprecise.

John Weiland wrote:

I can understand fighting.

I understand full-contact--just put on the gloves and go for it.

I understand chi sao.

I understand the first and the last. Any time gloves or protective gear are involved, other than goggles or a mouth guard, I believe someone is either kidding themselves, or deviating from Wing Chun as I know it.


What I can't understand is where to draw the line in Wing Chun "sparring." Is it playing tag?

Me too. I have not encountered even a single person who could satisfactorily explain to me a crisp or commonly accepted distinction. There is fighting and there are things that in various elements and to varying degrees approach what a fight is like. As so many have said, only a fight is like a fight.

I was talking with a Hung Gar friend of mine today. He said that in his Hung family they do not advocate sparring period. His sifu said if you fight there is no quitting and no running away. You either fight or you train. But sparring, quitting, running, tapping out - none of these have a place in the art he teaches. Among other exploits, the sifu was a bouncer in Hong Kong for some years (in a serious way), so his viewpoint is not ivory tower. Their training, like ours, has built in feedback mechanisms which, if properly utilized, continuously illuminate their shortcomings and areas where more work is needed. Offering as another, and somewhat independent viewpoint, FWIW.

Some of the debate in this thread is surely a semantic one. And naturally, some of us would still debate the fine and balance points even if we could sort it out what sparring is.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[OdderMensch]

Any time gloves or protective gear are involved, other than goggles or a mouth guard, I believe someone is either kidding themselves, or deviating from Wing Chun as I know it.
I have a pair of "bag gloves" that I have removed the center bar from. I can do everything in those, the padding is just right to prevent incedental cutting with the knukles, and makes the other guy feel better. I aslo wear a cup & mouthpiece.

the gloves look like these


http://store2.yimg.com/I/cheapboxing_1721_310019

[YungChun]

Originally posted by John Weiland

What I can't understand is where to draw the line in Wing Chun "sparring." Is it playing tag?



No, not at all.

Sparring is just a word used to explain a wide variety of combat drills.

I think I speak for most of the WCK 'sparring advocates' when I say, we do not mean karate type sparring. In fact, the system itself contains 'sparring' so the counter argument on this topic is somewhat mystifiying. Lat Sao as some have called it, is 'sparring' in WCK. The is the last drill done in the system. It is done after the student develops considerable skill in the basics of the system including, but not limited to, Chi-Sao. Lat Sao has been changed and adapted in many schools - many good ones too. It has been aided by the use of equipment and added diversity in fighting styles. We can use modern equipment wisely to aid our training and train against/with other fighting styles/methods of the day to see what works best and what doesn't in terms of our own kung fu experience.

I think what we're trying to say is that until you go at it at that level - from no contact - with lots of energy and ballistics - fakes - and in various situations, don't wager too highly on your ability to really fight well, and certainly not as well as you could. This is analogous to saying, don't expect to fight well until you finish the system and finish it well. WCK does traditionally include doing Lat-Sao or 'fighting' in training.

What WCK 'sparring' should mean generally is that:

1. The 'drill' begins without contact.
2. There is the possiblity of experiencing pain e.g. power hits
3. The drill should contain a degree of uncertainty
4. The drill should involve applying WCK concepts and theory
5. The drill should mirror real fighting as much as possible
6. The drill should consist of WCK v WCK as well as WKF v Other
7. The drill should not be a game of tag


Personally, I don't like to use gloves in this kind of drilling. As in the traditional way. Gloves IMO radically change the dynamics of the exchange and ability to use the system - not only do they impede the ability to feel but they make the hand/fist much larger, harder to penetrate, slower and also easier to see coming.

Those who have never tried this kind of drilling and who feel they are ready should really give it a try. The worst thing that could happen is that you will uncover the limits of your ability, which leads to the best outcome: the ability to remove those limits. After all, the system was intended to be used - so use it and learn how to really make it work.

YC

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by YungChun
After all, the system was inteded to be usedUse it when absolutely necessary. Don't waste it. You train to fight so that you don't have to.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Use it when absolutely necessary. Don't waste it. You train to fight so that you don't have to.

Right, and the swim coach said: "You train to swim so that you don't have to."

And the track coach said: "You train to run so that you don't have to."

And the boxing coach said: "You train to box so that you don't have to."

And the US Navy Seal instructor said: "You train to kill so that you don't have to."

And the golf instructor said: "You train to hit the ball so that you don't have to. "


"Never actually try to swim unless you really have to or you will lose your true swimming ability..." Said the swimming coach who never got wet himself.

----------------

"Never test or try to refine your Wing Chun in application, or you may find out you suck."


Etc, etc.

In all examples of human endeavor it is finally the doing of an activity that truly trains the player. Break it down train it - put it together and train it - but train it - do it!

[Nichiren]

Interesting topic.

We have a fight club at my gym and we train once a week. I would guess that 75% of the time is used for conditioning because sparring/fighting is hard on the body and stammina.

We have started to train more and more MMA the past two years. This is because we have a guy that are a BJJ purple belt in the class and he actually toys with us (used to atleast) when he wants to.

My contribution to this discussion is this:
If you remove the "deadly" techniques, the once you have left you can use at training with almost full power. And it is this training that produces fighters with the edge.

/cheers

[Marky]

Hi everyone,

I don't spar by MY definition of the word, but whenever I'm practicing I call it all wing chun.

I think maybe instead of saying "learn to fight so you don't have to", we should say "once you can fight, you no longer feel the need to". The first version is good but its semantics can be questioned (as YungChun did). But it's like ETW said, you should not hesitate to use it when absolutely necessary.

But just remember YungChun, swimming is a sport, running is a sport, boxing is a sport, golf is a sport. Navy SEALS only kill when authorized. And since it is their reputation in part that keeps peace in the world, you could say they DO learn to kill so they don't have to (in a strictly philosophical sense, that is...).

[Matrix]

Originally posted by kj
I have not encountered even a single person who could satisfactorily explain to me a crisp or commonly accepted distinction. There is fighting and there are things that in various elements and to varying degrees approach what a fight is like. As so many have said, only a fight is like a fight. Kathy Jo,
This is where the rubber fails to meet the road. I have "sparred" many times and in several different contexts in my brief time in martial arts. This was before my time in Wing chun, of course. However, in each case there is a structure and "rules" , sometimes informal, that totally breakdown on the street.

The theory of relativity takes hold here, and I'm not talking about Einstein. ;) What I mean is that's it's all relative. If I say to you we did "full contact" sparring, or "no-rules" training, what does that really mean? Do you wear padding? Gloves? Are you in a ring? On Mats?Does someone get taken away in an ambulance when it's all over? The definition of sparring will vary widely from art to art, and group to group. Everyone - of course - believes that their way is the best. Same goes for chi sao, by the way. It appears from some comments made earlier in this thread, that different people have different approaches to chi sao, different emphasis of forms and so on. Which way is best???? I really can't say. However, I do know that the approach my Sifu uses is the best one for me. It is what attracted me to Wing Chun in the first place and what keeps me going. That's all I need to know. I enjoy reading about and discussing other approaches, even challenging them at times because I believe that I should be a good student, who studies and examines what is being taught and not just blindly following a perscribed path. But that's just me. I make no claims to have a lock on the truth, and I do not belong on any list of people that get it. So that's why I say...... your mileage may vary.

Matrix

[wingchunalex]

If you don't advocate sparring. given what has been said about the fact that sparring, at least, lets you try to apply techniques under a mentally and physically pressuring and stressful situation, similar in many respects to those of a real fight, depending on how you spar, is there a way to gage if a punch is thrown at you, you could most likely defend yourself. Can chi sau do that for you when confrontations don't start from a bridged position? and when most confrontations start with a push, a punch, or a attempt to grapple? How could you gage if you could defend yourself against a karate person when they don't do chi sau? if you don't sparr, your wing chun theoretically should work, but is there a gage to find out if it does? can you gage if you can block a punch?

If you can't gage your wing chun, how do you know it has any possiblity of working at all outside of talking theory?

I mean no disrespect if you opt not to sparr becuase you don't enjoy it, if it is to physically demending, or you would rather spend your time practicing other elements of the art that are more enjoyable to you. I just think that sparring is a gage to an extent of if your wing chun really works or not, in theory and application.

[yuanfen]

wingchunalex sez:Can chi sau do that for you when confrontations don't start from a bridged position?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chi sao is a whole continuum of things. Prepares you for non bridged situations very well- lat sao connection- but our lat sao is not the same as WT as described.

[kj]

Hi WCAlex and all,


Originally posted by wingchunalex
If you don't advocate sparring. given what has been said about the fact that sparring, at least, lets you try to apply techniques under a mentally and physically pressuring and stressful situation, similar in many respects to those of a real fight, depending on how you spar, is there a way to gage if a punch is thrown at you, you could most likely defend yourself. Can chi sau do that for you when confrontations don't start from a bridged position? and when most confrontations start with a push, a punch, or a attempt to grapple? How could you gage if you could defend yourself against a karate person when they don't do chi sau? if you don't sparr, your wing chun theoretically should work, but is there a gage to find out if it does? can you gage if you can block a punch?

If you can't gage your wing chun, how do you know it has any possiblity of working at all outside of talking theory?

I mean no disrespect if you opt not to sparr becuase you don't enjoy it, if it is to physically demending, or you would rather spend your time practicing other elements of the art that are more enjoyable to you. I just think that sparring is a gage to an extent of if your wing chun really works or not, in theory and application.

I don't spar by some people's definition. By other people's definition, I probably do. I don't really care about whether I do or I don't. What I care about is to learn and improve in Wing Chun. Fortunately, the system has provided a framework for doing so. I also have and pursue friends and acquaintances in other arts to help me close my gaps in learning and capability. And to help me identify more gaps. :)

I work at varying levels of intensity to know where my weaknesses are, and then train to improve on those. I fail to see overwhelming advantages in working to a level where I will fail more severely, to the point of unnecessary injury, or where I am encouraged to veer from my Wing Chun.

I work with outside hands at every feasible opportunity - outside hands in Wing Chun and in other arts. I always learn more about my strengths and weakness when I do, so that I can train further and improve.

I know what it is like to be under life-threatening attack, enough to know that I am capable of both losing and maintaining my composure when the crap hits the fan. Depends on the day. I don't need to recreate situations of this sort to know my capabilities and limitations.

I'm extremely interested in finding my weaknesses and continuously improving. I am not concerned about proving something that I believe is unprovable - to myself, a judge, or anyone else. On any given day, I have what I have - nothing more and nothing less. What is, is. I will only improve by training well, not because of passing or failing competitive tests. I am my only competitor.

I still fail to appreciate a clear distinction or consensus on sparring, though I remain skeptical about the value of what I "think" some folks mean by this. I proudly confess an aversion to unnecessary risks to my well being, unnecessary diversions in my Wing Chun training and progress, and unnecessary risks to others.

If a person is failing to find their weaknesses and failing to continuously improve, then something is wrong in their training, or as ETW has alluded, their knowledge and understanding of Wing Chun. If one is continuously finding their areas of weakness and error, and they are indeed making the necessary improvements then, other than machismo, I don't know why we should demand them to do something differently or potentially more harsh or damaging. I don't for a moment believe that calling a thing sparring is the only means of gaging capabilities, nor the best way of doing so.

From another vantage point, proving to oneself that something "works" during sparring could indeed be misleading about the overall efficacy of that thing. I am far more interested in my shortcomings ... and there are always shortcomings ... than to assume a false confidence which may be due to otherwise favorable circumstances or a contextual "win." A similar kind of thinking applies in chi sau. Investing in loss can yield great gains.

What I appreciate in KWJ's call is the need for legitimate and objective feedback for finding one's weaknesses and to improve upon them, including the ability to perform under pressure. I "assume" that this, and keeping honest about our efforts and capabilities are part of his concern; if so, very much agree with that. My caveat is that I don't appreciate sparring - if it is what I think it is - as the best, most appropriate, or only way to achieve that end. And upholding my respective duty to over-generalize - as we all must ;) - I belive that "most" people who engage in such activities frequently deter their progress in Wing Chun rather than aid it. I admit though, that sparring and fighting can increase one's prowess with something. Otherwise we wouldn't have seen the likes of Tank Abbot.

As for lists, I have a lot of them. Most of you are on at least one, some are on several, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[John Weiland]

Hello Mrs. Connors,

Originally posted by kj
Agreed. Chi sau encompasses a lot more than poon sau or luk sau alone. Lat/lut sau and gor/gwar sau ... extend chi sau to a very broad range.

I would add that I also understand working with hands outside of Wing Chun. But even then, I understand it in the context of training or fighting; "sparring" remains something muddled and imprecise.

I think I know what is meant by sparring. When I encounter this mentality, I just stick to my best Wing Chun and continue to pull my punches. Why? Because they're fooling themselves if they think they are training to win, and I can show it by laying my light taps directly on their nose. Wing Chun chi sao, in all its ranges, is a cooperative effort. I like my training partners, and in fact, I like those who try to hurt me. It's been a long time since I've worried about getting hit. I know that Mike Tyson or Mas Oyama can deliver more power with their punches than I can with mine, but I train to put mine right in your face. I am not trying to go through you like a samurai chopping wood. I am perfecting getting close and through precise techniques, unstoppably laying stikes on my opponent.


Any time gloves or protective gear are involved, other than goggles or a mouth guard, I believe someone is either kidding themselves, or deviating from Wing Chun as I know it.

Of course, they are deviating from learning and training Wing Chun. This is why I prefer to do full contact with its indisputable outcome. Nothing says we can't do both. But why mix it and wind up with crap Wing Chun/jitsu? Full contact is a different art as I tried to explain previously.


Me too. I have not encountered even a single person who could satisfactorily explain to me a crisp or commonly accepted distinction. There is fighting and there are things that in various elements and to varying degrees approach what a fight is like. As so many have said, only a fight is like a fight.

I don't need a definition. I disdain the opinions of those who think they have found some insight. Go do full contact in the ring. Really experience it. After winning there and satisfying whatever macho yearnings you have, come back to Wing Chun and learn another way.


I was talking with a Hung Gar friend of mine today.

Oh yuch! I have no Hung Gar friends. (Just kiddin,' Tom.) :D


He said that in his Hung family they do not advocate sparring period. His sifu said if you fight there is no quitting and no running away. You either fight or you train. But sparring, quitting, running, tapping out - none of these have a place in the art he teaches. Among other exploits, the sifu was a bouncer in Hong Kong for some years (in a serious way), so his viewpoint is not ivory tower. Their training, like ours, has built in feedback mechanisms which, if properly utilized, continuously illuminate their shortcomings and areas where more work is needed.

For the full contact enthusiasts, more power to you (pun intended). There is a wonderfully enlightening effect to receiving multiple blows to the nose and head. It gives one a truer appreciation of the finer arts. :D Full-contact trained "sparring" enthusiasts can be reduced to cringing cowards because they haven't been hit hard in the face as they are in the ring. But in the end, its just sport and you shake hands and give thanks to your opponent for the opportunity to train and gain insight into yourself.


Some of the debate in this thread is surely a semantic one. And naturally, some of us would still debate the fine and balance points even if we could sort it out what sparring is.

Oh nuts. You mean it was all just a misunderstanding? I should get out more. :D

All the best,

[Matrix]

Originally posted by wingchunalex
Can chi sau do that for you when confrontations don't start from a bridged position? and when most confrontations start with a push, a punch, or a attempt to grapple? How could you gage if you could defend yourself against a karate person when they don't do chi sau? I think you're getting hung up on this starting position issue. It's a red herring, that's for sure. Ultimately, you will have to bridge or make contact with the opponent. If you start with a false premise, you are very likely to end up drawing the wrong conclusion.


If you can't gage your wing chun, how do you know it has any possiblity of working at all outside of talking theory?
You are assuming that sparring is a guage, and perhaps the only guage. Why?? How do you know what I know or don't know? In turn I would say, how do you know what you're doing in sparring will work in a practical situation? Like I said, I have sparred many times. You can easily get lulled into a false sense of security by thinking you've emulated a real fight. IMO, it just ain't so.


I mean no disrespect if you opt not to sparr becuase ...... In your case, there was no respect taken. As I said earlier, I come here to read and discuss opposing views. I see and appreciate your perspective. If we're all just going to sit around and agree on everything, then I have better things to do. :D
In fact, if the truth be told, I truely value your opinion and point of view. I sense that you are quite sincere and I respect that.

Peace,
Matrix

[KenWingJitsu]

While I agree with all the above, chi sao would fit that definition

No it wouldnt. Chi-sao is A PATTERN That does not exist in "real" fighting. Period. Fighting = no pattern. Therfore, sparring should have "NO PATTERN".


Any time gloves or protective gear are involved, other than goggles or a mouth guard, I believe someone is either kidding themselves, or deviating from Wing Chun as I know it.

Utter nonsense. You cant put on gloves and spar and still use Wing Chun technique? The only time you can use Wing CHun technique is bareknuckle? ROFL. Ninja...please.

[kj]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu


No it wouldnt. Chi-sao is A PATTERN That does not exist in "real" fighting. Period. Fighting = no pattern. Therfore, sparring should have "NO PATTERN".


Once beyond the basic luk sau platform, my chi sau distinctly has no set pattern. My lat sau and gwar sau have no set pattern.

I often hear stories about training in Leung Sheung' school. There was a lot of chi sau going on, and his students frequently reminisce about the water fountain being more full of blood than of water.

So it seems that my chi sau practice and tradition differs from yours. Still, it is always interesting to learn how different people/groups approach the art, and fill the gaps.



Utter nonsense. You cant put on gloves and spar and still use Wing Chun technique? The only time you can use Wing CHun technique is bareknuckle? ROFL. Ninja...please.

If someone wrote that, I must have missed it. Of course you can apply Wing Chun "technique" with gloves on. I do however contend that

a) padded gloves will force some constraints and compromises. Some may feel this is not important. At a minimum, I don't believe such compromises are in themselves helpful for development, at least in the Wing Chun I know.

b) Once practitioners achieve a level of competency, protective gear can give a false and potentially dangerous sense of security. Again, at least in the Wing Chun I know.

Everything has advantages and disadvantages. Mocking people is utter nonsense.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

Of course you can apply Wing Chun "technique" with gloves on. I do however contend that

((Sure one can. Wing chun can be APPLIED in a variety of contexts.
But gloves inhibit the developmental process. . Often people dont go far enough into devloping their wing chun- or dont know how
to continue their development. The spreading of wing chun in the west is making for a lot of chop suey wing chun))

a) padded gloves will force some constraints and compromises. Some may feel this is not important. At a minimum, I don't believe such compromises are in themselves helpful for development, at least in the Wing Chun I know.

((Right track KJ. Sports culture and media events retards
devlopment of the art))



Everything has advantages and disadvantages. Mocking people is utter nonsense.

((Hardly helps))Joy

[Matrix]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Chi-sao is A PATTERN That does not exist in "real" fighting. Period. Fighting = no pattern. Therfore, sparring should have "NO PATTERN".The fact that you keep repeating yourself does not make it so. If your chi sao is simply a rolling pattern then you're not doing chi sao to the fullest extent.


Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Utter nonsense. ..... ROFL. Ninja...please. Yes, it's a common tactic to abuse an opponent when you have no basis for your arguement. Well done !!

As Mark Twain said " In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane."

Peace.
Matrix

[AndrewS]

Just chiming in. . .

one of the first and most valuable lessons an untrained person coming to a martial art to learn self-defense can receive is to become comfortable giving and receiving contact. After 6 months of training a person serious about training (not a hobbiest or fitness player) should be able to take a shot to the gut or face and not miss a beat, and deal out attacks without remorse. However you get to this lesson, I think it is one of the most important things to pass on to those who have not experienced either fighting or combat before.

Knowing that you don't come apart when you're near out on your feet is a good thing if you wish to be a fighter. That's as true for an 18 year old woman wishing to feel safer in life, as the 24 year old male with NHB visions. It's kind of a good thing for life, too, especially in this sanitized society where many people first encounter with their mortality is when age and illness bare their claws.

Once someone has started to learn the choreography, mechanics, timing, and sensibility of application, then work under pressure becomes an important learning tool. This is probably more important for the contact-naive trainee than someone with prior contact experience- my 50 some-year old training partner with 20 some odd thai matches really doesn't *need* more contact experience, the 22 year old kid who's never been in a fight in his life and wants to chase this elusive art we've all fallen in love with, needs it if he wants to be able to hang with serious ring fighters and thugs.


There is a risk/reward tradeoff with intensity. At one end there is the flowery garbage of crystals-and-incense taiji in which no skill is gained, at the other is full-contact all the time, where people develop bad habits, and only certain people will be able to develop their potential- and those only with 'naturalistic' mechanics, which can evolve into something special in rare cases.

In the middle of these two ends, there are tradeoffs for training. The best full-contact fighters with longevity from any discipline train very hard with occasional heavy contact and a strong eye towards injury prevention. They work with training partners who will push them, without breaking them un-necessarily and vica versa (and when this breaks down the fighters go to h*ll. When Tyson started ko'ing his ring partners for fun was around the time he headed downhill as a fighter. Contrawise- if I remember properly, a number of Ali's partners went on to become major heavyweight fighters). Even so, these folks accept a good bit of risk.

If you choose to train without accepting significant risk, and are technical all the time, you will limit your ability to apply. Brawling teaches you to pull things off on the fly (and is a h*ll of a lot of fun).

'Sparring' means a lot of things. What KWJ is referring to (at least by last Monday's practice as I looked on jealously nursing my badly bruised ribs), is free practice all ranges, all techniques allowed, with the mutual agreement not to do something uncontrolled with intention of damaging the other person- if you don't feel you have your balance, don't kick out the back leg, or kick the head of someone downed. Pull shots which are truely dangerous- i.e. kick the shoulder rather than the head on a downed person, push the elbow to the head or throat rather sending it through, etc.

My take on 'sparring' is free play without bad intentions. You can vary the time interval, range, start point, contact level, and intensity, as well as the degree of freedom. Wing Chun can fight Wing Chun, one person can throw exclusively boxing or thai or mixed fighting techniques, or both can simply use whatever they can pull off. I think the latter is less productive than one person simply trying to make good Wing Chun, and the other varying their role.

Training methods- 'sparring', lat sao, chi sao, san shou, reaction training, situation work, environmental training- these things are tools. Used well, they can build something special in nearly anyone.

My take,

Andrew

[yuanfen]

Andrew S sez:AndrewS


one of the first and most valuable lessons an untrained person coming to a martial art to learn self-defense can receive is to become comfortable giving and receiving contact.
((True))

After 6 months of training a person serious about training (not a hobbiest or fitness player) should be able to take a shot to the gut or face and not miss a beat, and deal out attacks without remorse. However you get to this lesson, I think it is one of the most important things to pass on to those who have not experienced either fighting or combat before.
((True- the problem is with the term "sparring"))

Knowing that you don't come apart when you're near out on your feet is a good thing if you wish to be a fighter.
((Yes))

That's as true for an 18 year old woman wishing to feel safer in life, as the 24 year old male with NHB visions.
(How you get to that truth may vary))

It's kind of a good thing for life, too, especially in this sanitized society where many people first encounter with their mortality is when age and illness bare their claws.

((Not always true for folks outside of upper middle class circles...they can encounter it early))



Training methods- 'sparring', lat sao, chi sao, san shou, reaction training, situation work, environmental training- these things are tools. Used well, they can build something special in nearly anyone

((Different mixes possibly depending on the person))

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu


Chi-sao is A PATTERN That does not exist in "real" fighting. Period. Fighting = no pattern. Therfore, sparring should have "NO PATTERN".




You have missed the point of chi sau totally. The whole idea is that it is not patterned at all. It is training reflexes and close quater techniques that are purely reactive = the opposite of patterned.

The reason chi sau alone is not enough to train you to fight is because it is only training a particular range and does not cover closing the gap, or groundfighting. It is also a traning excersise not 'fighting'. The idea is not to "roll" hands in a real fight, but to immediately strike once contact has been made using chi-sau skills. That is where sparring comes in.

[burnsypoo]

Chi Sau's what you make it, so who's to say what "the point" is? Hopefully you do something good with it.

[kj]

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
[BThe reason chi sau alone is not enough to train you to fight is because it is only training a particular range and does not cover closing the gap, or groundfighting. [/B]

The gor sau/gwar sau variation of chi sau does cover pre-contact range. Groundfighting is another matter.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[AndrewS]

Joy,

I completely agree on training mixes needing individual composition.

Most everyone else,

it seems you're having some semantic issues with the word 'spar'. I don't much care for it either, but it's convenient. Anyone got something better than 'Free practice against a resisting variable partner'?

UF,

you may be right, you may be wrong, but you're definitely rude and disrespectful. Do you mind mentioning your real name, as it seems you have so much to teach the rest of us in WT that hiding such a valuable resource as you is to deny many desperately in need of your insights vital tuition?

Later,

Andrew

[Shadowboxer]

Can you gauge your WC skill using various drills? You tell your partner who may/may not be wearing gloves,"hit me as hard as you can." Let's say hooks and upper cuts to start with. Your partner has to close the gap. You don't know if they'll throw a right or left. Once you can do this, add in the lead jab, then the
1-2. Once you can do this, add in a single leg attempt, then kicks to the legs. Continue to add links in your WC "fighting chain", as I heard one Sifu say. If the intent and intensity are in the drills, can you gauge your ability to do "tan da" or "lop da" in response to these attacks with changing levels of intensity and timing?

[AndrewS]

Shadowboxer,

so what's the end point of that progression?


Andrew

[wingchunalex]

great post KJ :) and great post andrew s :). well written.

question for shadowman:

in this "sparring/drill" you wrote about does the other person who is doing the hooks and such try and block your counter attack? if so how does it continue? (the drill sounds good, but dealing with the posiblity of being blocked in your counter attack would need to be worked in for it to have close to the same gage as sparring in my opinion, it sounds like a decient gage to me, a good one if you add the opponent blocking)

note on sparring:

I think sparring is a gage (to an extent, but its the best i've found) because a technique is being thown at you and you don't know what that technique will be, and then there is the posibility of your opponent blocking your counter attack, and then you must deal with that. similar to free style chi sau, but with a lot more possibilities.

I agree that sparring with a intent to win can very much hinder your growth in wing chun. If all you care about is "getting in" on the other person then your not focused on trying to apply your wing chun. example- lets say you just learned lop sau (bong wu to lop da) and when you first start trying to use it in sparring it doesn't work well, its very hard to apply. and you have the mentality that you have to win and "get in" on on them, and you get way from trying to apply lop sau with good timing and distance and you get caught up in "getting in" and winning. so then with that you get away from defending yourself well because you just want to get in and win and you start just trading punches with people. it becomes self-offence instead of self-defence. so wing chun starts to go out the door. technique gets bad. and no one progresses. competition in sparring rouines good progress.

the mentality to want to win can be a disease in sparring.

applying what you have learned and not caring whether or not you "win" or "lose" should be the focus of sparring.

sparring can be a bad thing if done done with the wrong mentality and without care and caution for the other person.

a note on chi sau:

chi sau can be very patterned. at my school chi sau is a drill. there are pre-aranged set techniques. those train you to have the best response programed into your natural reactions. then chi sau can be free style also, no pre-arranged techniques, but the patterned trains your natural reactions to be wing chun. at my school we do 80% patterned chi sau and 20% free style. thats just our take on chi sau.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by burnsypoo
Chi Sau's what you make it, so who's to say what "the point" is? Hopefully you do something good with it. Sure, I can buy that. However I can tell you that it is not,.........a repetitive rolling pattern.

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by wingchunalex
I think sparring is a gage (to an extent, but its the best i've found) because a technique is being thown at you and you don't know what that technique will be, and then there is the posibility of your opponent blocking your counter attack, and then you must deal with that. similar to free style chi sau, but with a lot more possibilities. So, how does sparring help you deal with unknown techniques and having your "counters" being blocked? I'm curious.

Matrix

[wingchunalex]

Originally posted by Matrix
So, how does sparring help you deal with unknown techniques and having your "counters" being blocked? I'm curious.

Matrix

sparring helps you learn to deal with unknown techniques (by that i ment you don't know what is going to be thrown at you, compared to like you would in a drill) by forcing you to react and apply what you have learned when you don't know what's going to come at you, similar to real self-defence though not exactly ill admit from what other people have said. you learn to flow with what comes at you and use it against your opponent in a situation with more "unknowns" than in chi sau.

sparring helps you deal with your attacks / counter attacks being blocked by actually having that happen in a non pre-arranged setting where you have to react and apply your wing chun to still have a upper hand on the opponent. it helps you because if you look at a confrontation and the possiblity of having your counter attack fail (be blocked) you learn to take advantage of your attack being blocked. sparring helps you do this at a higher level than chi sau i believe because there are more "unknowns" in sparring to deal with.

example: you apply lop da to your opponent (grab his lead hand and punch, or you can think of it as you lop da-ing a incoming punch). your opponent blocks your punch with wu sau (or any type of high outside block).

a wing chun person should be able to take advantage of that situation and use the opponents block against them. this is what wing chun trapping is in my oppinion, or at least part of it.

you can A) grab the person's blocking hand with the hand you punched with and pull their arm over so that their arms are crossed and you can control both hands with your one hand and attack.

or B)

you can pull the person's block and punch low with the hand you initially lop-ed with.

or c) your opponent grabs your punch with the hand they blocked with and you have to react to that.

all this is similar to free style chi sau, but it can be done against other styles in sparring and with more variables than in freestyle chi sau.

i hope i answered your question adiquately :cool:

[Matrix]

Originally posted by wingchunalex
i hope i answered your question adiquately :cool: Yes, your answer was more than adequate. Thanks. :)

In your example, you provide several different responses to your situation. How do you know which response is correct? What is telling you what you should do in a given situation? In this case, you say the opponent blocks your punch with a wu sau. What factors dictate what you will do next?

Is this different than what you would do in chi sao?

Matrix

[Wingman]

[snip].... all this is similar to free style chi sau, but it can be done against other styles in sparring and with more variables than in freestyle chi sau.

I agree. The lop da scenario and options A, B, & C can happen during "free style" chi sao. The same scenario can also happen against a non-WC opponent in sparring.

I guess it all comes down to how we define sparring. For me, sparring is between practitioners from different MA styles; while chi sao is between two WC practitioners.

Chi sao can start from non-contact range too. Is this what you mean by "free style" chi sao? In "free style" chi sao, there can be many variables too; especially during the pre-contact stage. During pre-contact stage, you have to rely on your sense of sight in order to decipher what your opponent is trying to do. Looks can be deceiving. That's why I believe that there are more unknown variables during pre-contact stage than during contact.

I guess you have a point when you said that there are more variables when sparring with other styles than in "free style" chi sao. This is because your opponent have different moves. And if you are not familiar with his style, then he can be very unpredictable.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Wingman
I agree. The lop da scenario and options A, B, & C can happen during "free style" chi sao. The same scenario can also happen against a non-WC opponent in sparring. Ok, for the sake of arguement, let's assume that there are only these three options in this scenario. Which option do you take? Why? Why not the one of the others? Do I just guess??? Or.....does it just happen?


Originally posted by Wingman
I guess you have a point when you said that there are more variables when sparring with other styles than in "free style" chi sao. This is because your opponent have different moves. And if you are not familiar with his style, then he can be very unpredictable.Why are we trying to predict what will happen from a long list of variables that are dictated by my opponents style? What if I guess wrong? I'm afraid I don't like the odds here.

Sorry for all the questions, but I think the answers are there in chi sao. Then again, what the heck do I know? :D

Matrix

[YungChun]

Originally posted by Wingman


That's why I believe that there are more unknown variables during pre-contact stage than during contact


Exactly. The grabbling and pulling this that, is after contact. Before contact in a mock-fighting situation there are other things happening, or things that happen that simply do not happen in Chi-Sao at least as I know the exercise. Some of these are:

1. Uncommitted attacks
2. False attacks
3. Indirect attacks
4. Combo attacks
5. Very High ballistics and energy
6. Non WCK attacks
7. Ducking, bobbing

The pre-contact range is a range that many other systems specialize in - WC does not specialize in it though it is and/or should be addressed. Most other systems do not have Chi-Sao and they will try to KO the opponent before you have a chance to bridge - to them the bridge may be unknown and the pre-contact area is their entire study. Do you think your inside Chi-Sao work has endowed you with outside mastery? Is that reasonable?

In this game - the outside - there is a variety of ways to play with distance angles and timing - this is 'their' world. If an attack is coming at you fast and hard from outside it is all too easy to say, 'well I would just Tan-Da (or whatever)' as in Chi-Sao. The problem is that in Chi-Sao you are operating in OUR range whereas from the outside if that attack was not intended to land you will not be able to close it off and counter hit at the normal distance because it was thrown short and wasn't intended to land - although it looked fast and dangerous coming! If you try to Tan-Da that attack that was just a little short you may find that the counter you use is ALSO out of range. The crux of this problem is that just as you are trying to Tan Da the short attack the the REAL attack is coming-in half second later from a different angle.

These kinds of 'problems' are not going to happen in Chi-Sao nor will the same energy be present, nor the stress, and the wide variety of odd ball attacks that the outside fighter will use to confuse your counter or attempt to bridge. The dynamics at work in 'trapping range' are not entirely the same from outside. From outside a circle can beat a straight line if it is timed and angled right whereas from in-your-face range where the fist is a few inches from the nose the circle (going around) will almost always lose (not talking about Jao Sao.) Or you may find that as you hit to the center he loops and you get nailed too - whoops! Different range - different dynamics at work.

Point being we need to address this area and get familiar with it.

By the way KJ what did you mean by Gwar Sao?

YC

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Matrix
Ok, for the sake of arguement, let's assume that there are only these three options in this scenario. Which option do you take? Why? Why not the one of the others? Do I just guess??? Or.....does it just happen?

If given only the 3 options, I choose:

A) grab the person's blocking hand with the hand you punched with and pull their arm over so that their arms are crossed and you can control both hands with your one hand and attack.

Option A) allows you to continue with your attack since you are controlling both your opponent's hands with your one hand; and you have your other hand free to attack. It also prevents your opponent from executing option C)..

c) your opponent grabs your punch with the hand they blocked with and you have to react to that.

I'm not comfortable with option B).

B) you can pull the person's block and punch low with the hand you initially lop-ed with.

Once you change your lop sao to a low punch, your opponent's hand will be free to strike you too.


Originally posted by Matrix
Why are we trying to predict what will happen from a long list of variables that are dictated by my opponents style? What if I guess wrong? I'm afraid I don't like the odds here.

Sorry for all the questions, but I think the answers are there in chi sao. Then again, what the heck do I know? :D

Matrix

I'm not saying that we have to predict what our opponent will do next. It is next to impossible especially during the pre-contact stage since you only have to rely on your sense of sight. Looks can be deceiving; and the hand is faster than the eye.

What I'm trying to say is, we must try to know our opponent and his style. If he is TKD, then we can expect more kicks from him. If he is BJJ, then we can expect him to try to grapple us to the ground. If we know our opponent and his style, then his moves will not be very unpredictactable.

And yes you are right, the answers are there in chi sao. But not all answers are.

[black and blue]

Ultimate Fighter wrote:


The reason chi sau alone is not enough to train you to fight is because it is only training a particular range and does not cover closing the gap, or groundfighting. [/B]

While I agree that Chi Sau alone is not enough to teach someone to fight, disagree with regards the groundfighting.

Last night we worked Chi Sau from the ground (from the mount)... this was a first for me, and the experience was an excellent one. My instructor also practise BJJ, and says one of the reasons for his success in this area is his ability to use Chi Sau on the ground.

There's some Mpegs up at another site, www.windycitywingchun.com that shows Augustine Fong doing some 'closing the gap' exercises - it's clear from these how one range is quickly covered and Chi Sau range engaged.

[kj]

Originally posted by YungChun
By the way KJ what did you mean by Gwar Sao?

A non-choreographed form of chi sau that does not require pre-contact nor the luk sau (rolling) platform.

Some might call it "sparring" but I don't. It is cooperative in that the purpose is to learn, not to win or prove something. It is random, often times extremely aggressive and high intensity, but never (if properly practiced) undisciplined or compelling of a non-Wing Chun response. Thus the intensity should challenge but not exceed one's capabilities in Wing Chun. Once one veers from Wing Chun, the exercise fails to meet its objective. One rule of thumb is that one should never engage in this activity with anger or respond in kind.

Sound may be closer to gor sau; it's difficult to Romanize.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by black and blue



While I agree that Chi Sau alone is not enough to teach someone to fight, disagree with regards the groundfighting.

Last night we worked Chi Sau from the ground (from the mount)... this was a first for me, and the experience was an excellent one. My instructor also practise BJJ, and says one of the reasons for his success in this area is his ability to use Chi Sau on the ground.

There's some Mpegs up at another site, www.windycitywingchun.com that shows Augustine Fong doing some 'closing the gap' exercises - it's clear from these how one range is quickly covered and Chi Sau range engaged.

Chi sau skills may be applyed on the ground but simply playing chi sau cannot teach you the full spectrum of groundfighting no matter how it is applyed. This is where your other wing chun skills should come in, and even then knowledge of a groundfighting art will open your eyes beyond wing chun alone in this area.

You answered my question with your other point on closing the gap. There are a number of good drills taught on closing the range and I'm sure Augustine Fongs drills are very useful but that is not chi sau it is a separate excersise. Hence chi sau cannot teach you this very important aspect of fighting.

[black and blue]

Chi sau skills may be applyed on the ground but simply playing chi sau cannot teach you the full spectrum of groundfighting no matter how it is applyed. This is where your other wing chun skills should come in, and even then knowledge of a groundfighting art will open your eyes beyond wing chun alone in this area.

Closing the gap is not Chi Sau (not that I said it was)... I simply pointed to Fong Sifu footage because I thought it might be of interest.

Sure, Chi Sau can't teach you the full spectrum of groundfighting - I agree with this too. I see nothing wrong with understanding, for example, the dynamics of BJJ (which aren't a million miles away from WC), and understanding how a BJJ opponent applies his/her art.

That said...


This is where your other wing chun skills should come in

"I" believe Chi Sau should incorporate all our WC skills (but maybe you're saying this too). I also believe it does cover groundfighting (you can use it on the ground), but obviously doesn't cover it to the extent of, say, BJJ.

There I think I've covered myself ;) :D

[yuanfen]

UF sez: There are a number of good drills taught on closing the range and I'm sure Augustine Fongs drills are very useful but that is not chi sau it is a separate excersise. Hence chi sau cannot teach you this very important aspect of fighting.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your limited exposure to the wing chun world- limits your understanding of the full continuum of chi sao.

Fighting is fighting and each real fight is different.
The rest of contact work is simulation. One can perennially debate whose simulation is better.

[wingchunalex]

Originally posted by Matrix
Yes, your answer was more than adequate. Thanks. :)

In your example, you provide several different responses to your situation. How do you know which response is correct? What is telling you what you should do in a given situation? In this case, you say the opponent blocks your punch with a wu sau. What factors dictate what you will do next?

Is this different than what you would do in chi sao?

Matrix

the response that is correct is the one that either keeps you safe or hits your opponent. if you don't feel you have the skill or that it is safe at the moment to punch low, or cross their arms and punch you can disengage and re compose yourself if needed. (respons d i guess). both punching low, crossing and punching high, disengaging to out of range, all are correct. just different possiblities from the same situation. you just do the one that works for you at the moment. for example if you know that someone can get out of getting crossed up (using kwan sau) then you might go low. If you know they can guard low well (example they gaun da) then you might opt to cross them up. and if you have no idea how your opponent will react just feel it out, thats what chi sau should do for you.

what is telling me what i should do in a given situation? what the opponent does, how they react to my counter attack (lop da). you just use how ever they respond against them. (set them up). feeling what your opponent is going to do is a big part of knowing what i should do in a given situaiton and we all know that sensitivity comes from chi sau.

the factors that dictate what i will do next are my opponents reactions. if they lop my punch with their wu sau i won't have the chance to lop their wu sau possibly, then they are on the offenive. if they are using a lot of muscual strength and loping their wu sau would be too dificult then i might just let go and thrust forward when my hand is free and flow. if they are too relaxed then i might apply the lop sau harder so that it is lon sau and force them off balance. it just depends on what you feel from your opponent.

at this range it is not different then what you would do in chi sau. this is where sensitivity training becomes very important, and having wing chun reactions be natural. however with sparring you have the oppotion and you opponent has the opption of totally disengaging to a safer distance out of range. also with sparring you have kicks to deal with and different kinds of kicks that aren't possible in chi sau especially against other stylists.

[wingchunalex]

"Why are we trying to predict what will happen from a long list of variables that are dictated by my opponents style? What if I guess wrong? I'm afraid I don't like the odds here.

Sorry for all the questions, but I think the answers are there in chi sao. Then again, what the heck do I know? " -matrix

your questions are VERY good ones.

your not trying to predict what will happen, you are feeling it out. there are only 8 kinds of punches people can throw. looping from the left, looping from the right, straight right, straight left, looping right low, looping left low, straight right low, straight left low. same for kicks basically.

and there are only so many ways you can be blocked. example, every one has to use something like wu sau to block your punch some type of high outside block or high inside block (but high outside works better agaist lop da).

it really doesn't matter what style someone does, there are only a limited number of ways the human body can move. it doesn't matter if its a karate high outside block, a tiger high outside block, a mantis high outside block, or a wing chun high outside block (wu sau). thats why you just feel it out.

my sifu says we should fight the person and not the style. if you get caught up in what style they use it will mess you up.

there is really not a lot of predicting to do. either they

a) block your punch (from lop da) (then possibly grab)
b) get punched (with your lop da)
c) get punched (with your lop da) and also try and punch you with their free hand as they get hit (and you possibly get hit if you don't realize their counter attack)

so there is not a lot that can happen if you just feel things out and use what your opponent does against them, whether it be attack you or defend themselves.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by wingchunalex
your not trying to predict what will happen, you are feeling it out.Exactly!


it really doesn't matter what style someone does, ... thats why you just feel it out. .Agreed.


my sifu says we should fight the person and not the style. if you get caught up in what style they use it will mess you up..He sounds like a smart man. :)


so there is not a lot that can happen if you just feel things out and use what your opponent does against them, whether it be attack you or defend themselves. No doubt. So, why again do we need to spare? ;)

This discussion can go on forever. It's a question of personal perspective. If you think sparring will get you to where you need to be, more power to you. I, on the otherhand do not believe that it's a requirement. Your chi sao needs to evolve to the point where it delivers these things for you. BTW, I'm not claiming any personal skill here, but I see it done often enough to know it's achieveable.

Peace,
Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by wingchunalex
both punching low, crossing and punching high, disengaging to out of range, all are correct. I do not recommend disengaging to out of range. It seems counter-WC to me, it's more like something you would do in sparring. ;)

On the subject of kicks you can take them away from your opponent by keeping them off balance. If they cannot establish balance, they cannot kick. It doesn't take much. Trying to move out of range lets your opponent establish himself and brings you out to their range if they are a kicker.

Off to class. :D

Peace,
Matrix

[Shadowboxer]

WC Alex, what about attacks from 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock. (this could be another thread actually). My mantis brothers have a long fist attack that sends 2 hammer fists crashing down at you from 12 o'clock high. (How do you guys deal with attacks from 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock. I consider a hook punch 3 or 9 o'clock.)

Andrew S, the end of the progression is however many links you want in your WC "chain".

Yung Chun, do you practice your techniques (tan da or pak da) where your partner has to close the gap? Do you practice yut fook yee "1 hand bridges 2" to deal with combos?

We have a drill we call the "act/react" line. The attacker puts shin guards on and tries to attack you with kicks. They circle back and forth changing directions, you step appropriately. When they cross that "line" you respond with jeet gerk to the shin or knee, sometimes fung gerk. Where this line is, is different for everybody. It's where you know you can take a small toh ma and kick to the knee or shin, yet you seem to be out of striking range.

[wingchunalex]

oh yeah, oops, i forgot those. silly mistake.

against crashing down attackes (12:00) i use bil sau. gainst attacks coming up (6:00, uppercuts) i use gum sau.

disengaging-

disengaging is a possiblity more for someone with less experience who can't stay inclose for long periods of time. inclose fighting is fairly andvanced, so i don't expect somone with 3 or less years to really be able do stay in close and not get hit by their opponent. disengaging is also a possiblity for intermediate students against oppoentent with a big strength advantage when they don't feel they can do things like control a their opponents balance. for a advanced person, they can disengage (take a step back) then re-engage very quickely, they can re-engage while their opponent is still trying to adjust to them having disengaged, so they are more easily offbalanced because they are trying to adjust to quick changes in ranges.

but over all i treat disengaging as a safety measure for less experience people who can't do inclose fighting well yet. and as a possiblity for advanced people to do when they get tired. if you stay out of range you can get your second wind while your oppoent get tired trying to attack you. your defence and foot work especially have to do with this one. but yes, disengaing is not quite "advanced" wing chun "strategy". but it is a option.

i hope that clarified a bit.

yes, we could go on forever with "chi sau only v.s. sparring"

I think everybody's made good points and this has been one of the best discustions i've ever had on the forum!!! I guess it just comes down to personal preference and how you do things.

[wingchunalex]

empty cup. I agree with you. what you've said is kinda what some of us have been saying.

I think one of the issues underlying the whole chi sau vs sparring is do we need to prove wing chun as a fighting art in our time.

challenge matches in earlier times have proven wing chun as a fighting art.

I think one issue people have different oppinions on are do we as modern wing chun practitioners do we still need to prove wing chun as a fighting art? if so how? if not why not?

I think there are a number of different answers to those questions. All are valid, we do live in very different times than leung jan.

I personally think wing chun needs to be proven as a fighting art against other styles in our time. thats part of the reason I advocate sparring. but the counter point can be argued to that we don't have to prove anything to anyone.

I think another issue realated to this is, what about other styles. can we effectively fight other styles with highly trained martial artists? people have a lot of different answers to that also.

[KenWingJitsu]

Good to see there are some more enlightened ones on here. I think Andrew pretty much put the description of sparrign to rest with his last post.

I see nothing wrong with understanding, for example, the dynamics of BJJ (which aren't a million miles away from WC), and understanding how a BJJ opponent applies his/her art.
Exactly. and you know what they do all the time don't you? "Apply thir art against an uncooperative resisting opponent who's always fighting back". This is how they weed out 'useless' theories & techniques. This is what is called.....oh what's the word?

Ah yes.

Sparring.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
tan sau is tan sau regardless of whether your palm is perfectly flat with thumb tucked in or not. What matters in fighting is if you can actually block with it...catch the bridge. I hope there's more to tan sao than flat palms and tucked thumbs. Or am I putting too fine a point on this?


i might sound harsh but i am not trolling. just my thoughts. Not too harsh by a long shot. It's a point of view, and hopefully we're all entitled to one without having to sustain abuse. :cool:

Peace,
Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
that fancy hands are good but how you fight so to speak matters more Sure thing. As long as the structure is sound, and the the energy is correct, then I agree.




for example somebody can do their forms really crappy. and be horrible at chi sau. but they might still be the best thing to come from kung fu since bruce lee in a REAL fight Bruce who?? :D
Seriously though, I would agree that because someone looks like they're doing the forms in a "text book" manner that it does not automatically translate into strong application. However, if they are "crappy" at chi sao and forms I think they're rather limited.

Matrix

[wingchunalex]

I don't think there is " one most efficient" way of using tan sau. its adjustable.

a good tan sau is at the right level (shoulder hight in my oppinion or just a tad higher when needed), with the elbow pointing down, and on center or not far from. and it puts you in a good position to continue your defence or attack.

a working tan sau happens when you spar. some times its good some times its bad (you get hit) and some times its just working (you don't get hit but you don't have the advantages of a good tan sau)

my working tan sau-

many times i've had to do a saving split second tan sau when im sparring and i'm in close and my opponent hooks. the tan sau ends up ubove my sholder cramped in just between my head and my opponents fist. i didn't get hit so it worked. but it doesn't give me the advantages of a well placed tan sau. basically when i do it, its just to save myself from getting hit and means i messed up some place else (distance, timing, sensitivity, etc).

but the main thing is it worked and i didn't get hit.

I try not to do it, and i usually don't. but it happens.

This is why sparring is important. hooks like that don't happen in chi sau. boxers don't do chi sau.

[wingchunalex]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
finally somebody who understands :)


the style is a great one. no question about it. but unless we train effectively it's useless. a person who does doggy style can beat us if they train realistically.

<I totally agree, wing chun is not a superior system if its not trained as one>

.

but we need to cross train to some degree to have at least some working knowledge of how to deal with grapplers. I dont' care how good we are standing up...what if you slip and fall or someone tackles you form behind? With many ppl now cross training and doing MMA with major emphasis on ground-fighting we wing chunners cannot be content with our "superior" system.

<i definately don't think we need to cross train. I don't even think we should be very familiar with other styles strategies. then we are fighting the style not the person. Have and idea of how a bjj person fights, but i wouldn't go and studdy their moves or how they do them, or go learn them. I think that would hurt wing chun people, i think thats part of what happens to wing chun people in mma. they see a grappler shoot and think "oh no, they're shooting on me" or "oh no, thier using suchandsuch arm bar on me", instead of not caring and just using what wing chun tells them to do. in other words they give in and grapple a grappler because they think they have to.

I think wing chun should spar other styles, or know what they as wing chun people would do if they fall or get taken down. but the goal of wing chun is not to let that happen (yeah but it does i know, but still use wing chun). I don't think a wing chun person should automatically switch to bjj or wrestling when they fall or get taken down. i think they should hit them and try to get up, not play into the grapplers game. and i think that would happen if you cross train

I also don't think that wing chun needs to be changed per say. but it does need to be a LIVING art. a person's wing chun should fit them. I shouldn't do wing chun the exact same way my sifu doesn't wing chun, and my sifu shouldn't do wing chun the exact same way his sifu did wing chun. its got to be living in the hands of the practitioner, but it should also still be wing chun in essence and technique.

[wingchunalex]

ok, i don't know how to quote. :D. i hope people can understand that.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by wingchunalex
I don't think there is " one most efficient" way of using tan sau. its adjustable. There is a most efficient way to use tan sao. That point of efficiency may vary depending on the specific situation, but that's it, IMO.


a working tan sau happens when you spar.And when you do chi sao. ;)


i didn't get hit so it worked. but it doesn't give me the advantages of a well placed tan sau. basically when i do it, its just to save myself from getting hit and means i messed up some place else (distance, timing, sensitivity, etc).If your goal is to not get hit, I guess that's fine, but you should be taking the center with the intent to hit. You're using the wrong hand, IMO. Ask your sifu or a sihing about the situation.


boxers don't do chi sau. and neither do golfers or swimmers. So what? :)

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
yeah most wing chun people assume hooks are those ones they see thrown at david carradine in kung fu the legend continues :) Yeah, David Carradine, now there's a real martial artist. :p

Matrix

[wingchunalex]

oh yeah, i get your point with the most efficent tan sau sau depending on the situation, i agree. (i was just diferentiating. a while back I got into it with the hfy guys about there only being one most effecient tan sau).

true that working tan sau happens in chi sau, but not in the same way as in sparring in my experience. like i haven't ever had do the that save me tan sau by my head chi sau to the same extent i've had to in sparring. in chi sau its never been against a hard tight hook, but thats just my experience.

oh yeah, i get your point about taking the center with the intent to hit and stuff. like i said its not the greatest way to do tan sau. but my first priority is not getting clocked. it just happens some times as a save myself move. i'd much prefer to not make the mistakes that let it happen. and as i continue my training those happen less. usually its a wrong angle or distance, or i got my hands tied up, and as i keep training all that happens less so i don't have to use my "saving" tan. :p

I know boxings a sport, but it's sport fighting. If you sparred a boxer could you win? if you fought a boxer could you win? if you had do resort to real life and death self defence against a boxer could you do it (mike tyson, he might actually try to kill you if he met you in a dark ally. :P) (just being silly)

If you only think wing chun should be used for self defence then could you respond to my earier post about sparring v.s fighting v.s self defence ?

:p :p :p

[Matrix]

Originally posted by wingchunalex
in chi sau its never been against a hard tight hook, but thats just my experience. Yep.
oh yeah, i get your point about taking the center with the intent to hit and stuff. like i said its not the greatest way to do tan sau. but my first priority is not getting clocked. it just happens some times as a save myself move. sometimes the best defence is a good offence. If you're worried about getting hit, then I would say your intent is not there. You'll be tentative, and backing up. Just my opinion, btw.

know boxings a sport, but it's sport fighting. If you sparred a boxer could you win? if you fought a boxer could you win? if you had do resort to real life and death self defence against a boxer could you do it (mike tyson, he might actually try to kill you if he met you in a dark ally. :P) (just being silly) Yeah, Tyson would kill me, no doubt. I've been a kick boxer in a previous life, so I have fought many times in full contact situations. Like I said before, I can spar if you like. :cool:

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
you don't need to know every single style...just the ones which you'll likely encounter or that your style has a weakness to "That the impact of your army may be like a grindstone dashed against an egg, use the science of weak points and strong" Sun Tzu - The Art of War

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Matrix
Sure thing. As long as the structure is sound, and the the energy is correct, then I agree. Does the structure not extend to the palm, and the structure of the palm itself?

[YungChun]

Originally posted by Matrix
Tyson would kill me, no doubt.

Hmm, I don't see how this jives with the 'Chi-Sao is the mother of all training,' concept. Certainly your Chi-Sao is far, far, far better than Mr. Tyson's (Imagine Tyson saying 'Chi-Sao', LOL) - yet you beleive that he would 'kill you.' How can this be if Chi Sao is the only needed training and measuring device used for fighting?

So it seems that Tyson and those like him have something else. What is that exactly? Power? Speed? Killer instinct? Sparring and an understanding of the outside game??? How is it that Chi-Sao has not squashed these problems?

---------------

I ask again: With all the additional variables in the outside game how can Chi-Sao (alone) address all the problems of the outside? Answer: It can't and wasn't intended to.

[OdderMensch]

to keep my thumb tucked in. could you imagiane getting it caught on a punch. :eek:
I know boxings a sport, but it's sport fighting. If you sparred a boxer could you win? if you fought a boxer could you win? if you had do resort to real life and death self defence against a boxer could you do it (mike tyson, he might actually try to kill you if he met you in a dark ally. :P) (just being silly)
I could, I'd better, and I would have to. But I can gaurantee I couldn't out box a boxer.

[kj]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Does the structure not extend to the palm, and the structure of the palm itself?

Yes.
- kj

[kj]

Originally posted by YungChun
Hmm, I don't see how this jives with the 'Chi-Sao is the mother of all training,' concept. Certainly your Chi-Sao is far, far, far better than Mr. Tyson's (Imagine Tyson saying 'Chi-Sao', LOL) - yet you beleive that he would 'kill you.' How can this be if Chi Sao is the only needed training and measuring device used for fighting?

Rhetorical argument. What training or martial art will make one impervious against a Mack truck, tidal wave, or meteor? Everyone is equipped with something yet all physical entities have limits.

I've never seen a legitimate martial art that offers guarantees or your money back. Wing Chun is about each doing the best they can with what God gave them. That and prayer might be enough against the likes of Tyson, though I'd mostly give the edge to prayer.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Matrix]

Originally posted by YungChun
Hmm, I don't see how this jives with the 'Chi-Sao is the mother of all training,' concept. ........So it seems that Tyson and those like him have something else. What is that exactly? Power? Speed? Killer instinct? Sparring and an understanding of the outside game??? How is it that Chi-Sao has not squashed these problems? So, I guess with all of your sparring expertise you would be able to handle Iron Mike. Please tell me where to send my condolences if you ever have a chance/misfortune to try. I guess you guys can also stop bullets with your teeth. ;)

As for chi sao, you seem to be able to ask and answer your own questions, so let's leave it at that.

Matrix


"The man who sees little always sees less than there is to see.
The man who hears badly always hears something more than there is to hear" - Nietzsche

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Does the structure not extend to the palm, and the structure of the palm itself? In my experience, Yes. I do however have a bad habit of not completely tucking the thumb. The structure still seems pretty good, but there's tons of room for improvement.

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by kj
That and prayer might be enough against the likes of Tyson, though I'd mostly give the edge to prayer. Amen and Hallelujah!

Matrix

[yuanfen]

C'mon-the wing chun mind can explore other possibilities.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by YungChun
Hmm, I don't see how this jives with the 'Chi-Sao is the mother of all training,' concept. Certainly your Chi-Sao is far, far, far better than Mr. Tyson's (Imagine Tyson saying 'Chi-Sao', LOL)

I don't think that's his real voice. I think he uses a ventroloquist. He sounds a lot like a nervous Robin Givens. :D


- yet you beleive that he would 'kill you.' How can this be if Chi Sao is the only needed training and measuring device used for fighting?

Right. Also, what good is training at all if we're not aiming to be better than other humans? If you can't beat Mike Tyson, how're you gonna beat that grizzly bear that wants you for lunch. :p


So it seems that Tyson and those like him have something else.
What is that exactly? Power? Speed? Killer instinct? Sparring and an understanding of the outside game???

Probably those and more.


How is it that Chi-Sao has not squashed these problems?

It has. Your verbal contentions notwithstanding. No one can beat a pro heavyweight boxer without some training prep. Supposedly there is a new reality show in the works (pardon me if it's been mentioned previously) that pits Tyson against some poor smo who receives training for six months. Six months? Tyson had trainied more than six years before he turned pro. Do you think if you trained in boxing you could ever beat Tyson or another pro heavyweight? The science of Wing Chun isn't magic. It just improves your odds.

I ask again: With all the additional variables in the outside game how can Chi-Sao (alone) address all the problems of the outside? Answer: It can't and wasn't intended to. It is intended to do so. Give it some time. Getting discouraged by your lack of progress won't help you in the long run in Wing Chun or in any endeavor. Be brave. Don't give up. :)

Regards,

[YungChun]

The issue isn't about Tyson it is about his training. Everyone is quite ready and willing to admit that they would get stomped by Tyson. How about your master? Would he also get stomped by Tyson? Could you handle the guy Tyson beat? How about the boxer at the local gym with daily full contact experience? Well?

The truth IMO is that most of us would get stomped by any decent boxer who has trained daily with full contact - is anyone willing to admit that................? If you can admit that then you have taken the first step to removing that limitation and the way you remove that limit is to make your WCK alive, in fighting type situational training.

What about the Fear Factor? When you are faced with a big mean BG are you going to calmly assume your stance and wave him in? Or are you going to crap in your pants and freak out and get stomped? Law Enforcement agencies today know the importance of Stress Training and includes it in their training. Do you?

Again, the point is that sparring in whatever form you want is a vital tool and it is included in WCK in the form of Lat Sao. Now you can spice it up a bit and throw in some extras if you are smart but sparring or fighting, does exist in the system! This is what many martial artists use exclusively to train. Regular Chi-Sao, done correctly, is one part of the progression - it is not the end.


Originally posted by Grendel
It is intended to do so.

Please explain how Chi-Sao trains to deal with the 'outside game' and all of its facets, of which here are a few:

1. Uncommitted attacks
2. False attacks
3. Indirect attacks
4. Combo attacks
5. Very High ballistics and energy
6. Non WCK attacks
7. Ducking, bobbing
8. Feints
9. Adrenaline

If Chi Sao covered all this then the system wouldn't have Long Arm Chi-Sao and Lat-Sao in it......would it?

Now back to your regularly scheduled day dreams.

[yuanfen]

YungChun- on the way to MMA sez:
The issue isn't about Tyson it is about his training. Everyone is quite ready and willing to admit that they would get stomped by Tyson.

((You are making up your own scenarios- and showing fairly superficail understanding of WC. Who is "everyone"?))

How about your master?

((What about him?)

How about the boxer at the local gym with daily full contact experience? Well?

((wouldnt be playing his game. I respect his game))

The truth IMO is that most of us would get stomped by any decent boxer who has trained daily with full contact - is anyone willing to admit that................?

((Not really- though I respect boxers))

If you can admit that then you have taken the first step to removing that limitation and the way you remove that limit is to make your WCK alive, in fighting type situational training.

((Depends on what you mean? Tyson broke his hand ina brief confrontation with Mitch Green on the street-the latter got a black eye))

What about the Fear Factor?

(When you do enough wing chun you develop controls including psychological ones. Wing chun didnt develop as a sport.. though as I often mention- the fast spreading of wing chun has created some awful examples of martial artists))

When you are faced with a big mean BG are you going to calmly assume your stance and wave him in?

(Wave him in??? Is that what comes first in your mind?))

Or are you going to crap in your pants and freak out and get stomped?
((Some imagination in scenarios!))

Law Enforcement agencies today know the importance of Stress Training and includes it in their training.

((In between donut breaks. I can catalog lots of failures in stress management in law enfircement))

Again, the point is that sparring in whatever form you want is a vital tool and it is included in WCK in the form of Lat Sao.

(As discussed ad infinitum- there are different definitions of each. If you mean practicing with an uncooperative person-
good wing chun includes that))

Now you can spice it up a bit and throw in some extras if you are smart but sparring or fighting, does exist in the system!
((Sure- preacher))

Regular Chi-Sao, done correctly, is one part of the progression - it is not the end.



((A rose is a rose is a rose-an end is an end is an end))

[Grendel]

Hi YungChun,

Joy answered before I could, but in the interest of good manners, I'll post anyway. :D

Originally posted by YungChun
The issue isn't about Tyson it is about his training. Everyone is quite ready and willing to admit that they would get stomped by Tyson. How about your master? Would he also get stomped by Tyson? Could you handle the guy Tyson beat? How about the boxer at the local gym with daily full contact experience? Well?

Let's say Wing Chun gives you about a 50 pound weight advantage. E.g. a 150 pound Wing Chun fighter can fight against a 200 pounder from other arts. If we compared hours of training who would be training more, the Wing Chun TCMA or the boxer? If they trained the same hours, having the experience of both, I'd give the edge to Wing Chun in a street fight. As for your question, I have the expectation that I could handle the boxer at the local gym with daily full contact experience of equal years in a street fight. Boxing isn't fighting. It involves a lot of conditioning and getting hit---a lot.

In a street fight, a TCMA fighter needs to be able to handle fighting and taking punishment at 100 percent for 30 seconds to a minute or more to match up with a comparably trained conditioned boxer.



The truth IMO is that most of us would get stomped by any decent boxer who has trained daily with full contact - is anyone willing to admit that................?

No. At least I'm not. Have you studied Wing Chun? I don't understand how you can't see that if you have.


If you can admit that then you have taken the first step to removing that limitation and the way you remove that limit is to make your WCK alive, in fighting type situational training.

And what would that be again? :p


What about the Fear Factor? When you are faced with a big mean BG are you going to calmly assume your stance and wave him in? Or are you going to crap in your pants and freak out and get stomped?

It may be human to be wary of a big mean BG (whatever that is), but the longer I study Wing Chun, the less human I become. :D


Law Enforcement agencies today know the importance of Stress Training and includes it in their training. Do you?

Not specifically.


Again, the point is that sparring in whatever form you want is a vital tool and it is included in WCK in the form of Lat Sao. Now you can spice it up a bit and throw in some extras if you are smart but sparring or fighting, does exist in the system! This is what many martial artists use exclusively to train. Regular Chi-Sao, done correctly, is one part of the progression - it is not the end.

I suspect terminological differences here. My lineage doesn't use the term Lat Sao, nor do we usually differentiate the many forms of chi sao such as gor sau, etc. I'm wading through Leung Ting's big book (German edition) now and I don't see anything too unusual, and I don't expect to learn anything more than I've learned without books. Are there any secrets you'd like to share? :D


Please explain how Chi-Sao trains to deal with the 'outside game'

I'm not sure we mean the same thing by chi sao. I started to to try to address what I would do with your list, but the answers are all Wing Chun.


and all of its facets, of which here are a few:

1. Uncommitted attacks
2. False attacks
3. Indirect attacks
4. Combo attacks

I am unfamiliar with what you mean by these terms. I treat all attacks as real. All attacks are potentially combinations, aren't they?


5. Very High ballistics and energy

With structure and precision.


6. Non WCK attacks
7. Ducking, bobbing
8. Feints

With Wing Chun


9. Adrenaline

Theirs? or mine? I focus on staying relaxed and as calm as possible. Theirs: see above.


If Chi Sao covered all this then the system wouldn't have Long Arm Chi-Sao and Lat-Sao in it......would it?

It doesn't, does it? :p It sounds like more WT marketing.


Now back to your regularly scheduled day dreams.
And you to yours. WT may be limiting your perspective on Wing Chun.

Regards,

[wingchunalex]

as the answering yungchun's questions about feints, indirect attacks, bobbing, etc, people have just claimed "i don't understand the term, what do you mean" and "i'd use wing chun"

I feel like as martial artists we should know what a feint is, what a indirect attack is, a uncommitted attacketc. as martial artist we should know what those are from experience. I personally think the reason people don't "get" what yungchun is trying to point out, is because they haven't sparred. If you'd spar you'd get what he's saying.

In terms of "i'd use wing chun" as a answer, how would you use YOUR wing chun, how would you make your wing chun ALIVE in your hands.

to me chi sau is not the be all and end all of wing chun. it is a sensitivity drill and a drill to re-train our natural reactions.

this is progression in wing chun for me.

learn the movement from the form, practice applying the technique in drills so they become more second nature, practice and apply the technique in chi sau so you develope sensitivity and natural reactions with it, then you practice applying it under pressure with lots of variables in sparring, then it becomes a part of you and you truely know it.

[wingchunalex]

I think sparring is necessary to know if you could fight a boxer. how is a boxer going to fight, the same way they spar. how should a wing chun person going to fight, the same way they spar.

a classmate of mine often says that boxers are the hardest people for him to spar. they can take hits, they have endurance, good footwork. they would out class most martial artists. sparring a boxer really tests if you can deal with tricky attacks and good defences not based on bridges, and tricky counter attacks.

[yuanfen]

wingchunalex sez:
I personally think the reason people don't "get" what yungchun is trying to point out, is because they haven't sparred. If you'd spar you'd get what he's saying.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not unfamiliar with sparring- but I climb the wing chun mountain. Leave sparring to young folks who are stymied in their wing chun devlopment.

[Marky]

"I think sparring is necessary to know if you could fight a boxer." WCA

I think sparring with a boxer is necessary to know if you can spar with a boxer. Sparring is not a wonderful way to prepare for a fight. Yes, sparring and fighting have their similarities. So do drinking water and hydrochloric acid!

[YungChun]

Originally posted by yuanfen

You are making up your own scenarios- and showing fairly superficail understanding of WC.


I will let the insult slide and say that, you have no idea what I know. In contrast, it's quite clear what you don't know.


Originally posted by yuanfen
YungChun- on the way to MMA sez:
The issue isn't about Tyson it is about his training. Everyone is quite ready and willing to admit that they would get stomped by Tyson.

((Who is "everyone"?))


Oh, so you could take Tyson?


Originally posted by yuanfen

If you can admit that then you have taken the first step to removing that limitation and the way you remove that limit is to make your WCK alive, in fighting type situational training.

((Depends on what you mean? Tyson broke his hand ina brief confrontation with Mitch Green on the street-the latter got a black eye))


So since Tyson broke his hand we can infer that 'sparring' is at fault and therefore not useful. That makes sense. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by yuanfen

What about the Fear Factor?

(When you do enough wing chun you develop controls including psychological ones. Wing chun didnt develop as a sport.. ))


Yes, that's called rationalization.

Hmm so you don't get scared - well most people do. In fact, most people, including veteran street cops often freak out and lose their ability to perform well under stress..........if they only knew your secret.

I'd love to see you perform in a stress senario drill and see you exude alll that calm.



Originally posted by yuanfen

When you are faced with a big mean BG are you going to calmly assume your stance and wave him in?

(Wave him in??? Is that what comes first in your mind?))


Do you know what I meant by 'wave him in?'


Originally posted by yuanfen

((Some imagination in scenarios!))


Unlike some others who imagine that they will simply walk in to the BG with their structure and take him out - like it says in the book. The BG (bad guy) isn't always going to be some inept drunk with no experience. But I know you'll just Wing Chun him.


Originally posted by yuanfen


((I can catalog lots of failures in stress management in law enfircement))


So trained and seasoned Police can't handle it but you can without stress training. Maybe you should teach cops your secrets. After all you've been in lots of life and death situations and kept your cool, right?


Originally posted by yuanfen

Again, the point is that sparring in whatever form you want is a vital tool and it is included in WCK in the form of Lat Sao.

(As discussed ad infinitum- there are different definitions of each. If you mean practicing with an uncooperative person-
good wing chun includes that))


No, as it has been established: We mean combat drills.


Originally posted by yuanfen

((Sure- preacher))


Good comeback.


Originally posted by yuanfen

Regular Chi-Sao, done correctly, is one part of the progression - it is not the end.

((A rose is a rose is a rose-an end is an end is an end)) :rolleyes:


Sidesteps the issue, guess why.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by Grendel

I have the expectation that I could handle the boxer at the local gym with daily full contact experience of equal years in a street fight. Boxing isn't fighting. It involves a lot of conditioning and getting hit---a lot.




Yes, they do get hit a lot and very hard in sparring. Have you ever done full or hard contact sparring or sparring type drills?



The truth IMO is that most of us would get stomped by any decent boxer who has trained daily with full contact - is anyone willing to admit that................?




Originally posted by Grendel

No. At least I'm not. Have you studied Wing Chun? I don't understand how you can't see that if you have.



Christ my avatar is a plum blossom and you can see the sig. Yes I have studied for quite a while under a student of Yip's :o

Bruce, as would most serious students would certainly agree with the assessment. I have never met any muli-decade master or student disagree with something so basic. Most WC students are soft and we all know that. Many WCK students do it for fun or as a hobby and have absolutely no desire to fight and have never been in a fight. Let's get real: You are going to fight as hard as you train and if you train light with little or no real contact, with no sparring, no hard-core drilling - it ain't gonna be any different in the street. Remember the Kuen Kuit isn't going to pop out of thin air and kick ass for us in a real fight with 1 or more good fighters.


Originally posted by Grendel

And what would that be again? :p



S - P - A - R - R - I - N - G


Originally posted by Grendel

It may be human to be wary of a big mean BG (whatever that is), but the longer I study Wing Chun, the less human I become. :D



We are all still quite human. We are all still suseptable to the chemical dump that can rob us of our skills. We should train for it and learn how to use it - or risk actually living that dream where you punch and nothing happens.


Originally posted by Grendel

I suspect terminological differences here. My lineage doesn't use the term Lat Sao, nor do we usually differentiate the many forms of chi sao such as gor sau, etc. I'm wading through Leung Ting's big book (German edition) now and I don't see anything too unusual, and I don't expect to learn anything more than I've learned without books. Are there any secrets you'd like to share? :D



I have shared a lot. The secret is to train hard not soft. Take risks, put it on the line and use all the drills to address the whole picture.

My lineage progression is:

SLT
Pak Sao
Lop Sao
Dan Chi Sao

CK
Chi Sao (Doy Ma)

BJ - MJ
Chi Gerk

Gwan
Long Arm Chi Sao

BJD
Combat

Various drills are also used with equipment to aid development in the use of power, distance and implementation of WC concepts under varying conditions.


Originally posted by Grendel

I am unfamiliar with what you mean by these terms. I treat all attacks as real. All attacks are potentially combinations, aren't they?



No, all attacks are potentially anything. I can't understand how you can have been involved with MA for more than 30 years and not know what any of those terms are. Have you never sparred in all your 30 years of training?

All those things are radically different kinds of attacks or parts of an attack - look into JKD.


Originally posted by Grendel

With structure and precision.

With Wing Chun



That's a cop-out my freind.


Originally posted by Grendel

It doesn't, does it? :p It sounds like more WT marketing.



Absurd.

All of Yip's top students put their money where their mouth was and tested and refined their WC in combat of one kind or another - it's in the original Yip system.

I don't want to offend anyone here so I will just say that I am not a fan of WT or LT or EB let alone affiliated with them. The spelling of my sig should at least tell you who I am NOT affiliated with.

[wingchunalex]

lets all calm down. this thread started out really really good, with a lot of respectful, good, and interseting conversation. and it stayed that way for some time. but recently it has gone down hill into indirect personal attacks. lets be careful and not mess up this thread.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by YungChun
All of Yip's top students put their money where their mouth was and tested and refined their WC in combat of one kind or another - it's in the original Yip system. Key words: "In one kind or another", but not a whole lot. Which "top students" do you speak of, YC?

[AndrewS]

Wow, a complete drive-by WT slam. Impressive. We've reached the point where guys from our line don't even need to speak up for us to start catching flak for advocating heavy contact and non-chi sao training methods.

I believe us EBMAS folk can take that as a compliment- we've become synonymous with that sort of training.

Later,

Andrew

[YungChun]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Key words: "In one kind or another", but not a whole lot. Which "top students" do you speak of, YC?

All those guys who participated in the street fighting or fight drilling at that time or later.

The fight drilling was something that was included in the original system according to more than one student of Yip. Some call it Lat Sao. A drill where two students face off from outside range and 'go at it.' If some people are not doing that then I would ask: Why not?

Just some of the people who were known for mixing it up I'm sure there are more:

Wong Sheung Leung
Bruce Lee
Hawkins Cheung
William Cheung

Personally, I have never known any serious student of the system, who really wanted to be able to FIGHT, not work on applying WC in some kind of fighting or fight drilling. That could mean drilling with contact, getting into fights in the street, challenging other fighters, whatever.

After all when is WCK most alive, most real - minus all the BS? In fighting. It's more than just testing ourselves and refining the application of the system it's about being able to express the art under realistic situations. Can you (meaning any of us) really express the art in combat - under stress, with the power to do damage and know it FOR SURE? If you can't what does that say about your WCK? Before I became a Sifu I would demand such ability in myself and I would expect nothing less of others.

If I was going to send out students to fight in the street or in war I would certainly require that they expereince as much contact and combat reality training as is possible.

I said in another post: You were cloned and three months ago your clone was abducted. Since then he has been forced to fight in full contact life and death matches. He fought 12 matches and has survived, he won 6 lost 6. Now he is back in town. Could you handle him or do you think he would stomp you?

How would this experience change his ability vs. yours?

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by YungChun
Just some of the people who were known for mixing it up I'm sure there are more:

Wong Sheung Leung
Bruce Lee
Hawkins Cheung
William Cheung
Personally I have no respect for their Wing Chun, and therefore have no interest in their approaches to training. My standards for Wing Chun are far greater than what the above have shown.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Personally I have no respect for their Wing Chun, and therefore have no interest in their approaches to training. My standards for Wing Chun are far greater than what the above have shown.

Kind of funny in terms of the geometric progression in the number of people probably now offended. Love to know what you think about the rest of Yip's students. Feel free to share more thoughts.

Oh, let me add good old Yip Man to that list of one time mixers. Ahem.

May I ask what your Lineage is?

[yuanfen]

Reply to yunchun in brackets:

Originally posted by yuanfen

What about the Fear Factor?

(When you do enough wing chun you develop controls including psychological ones. Wing chun didnt develop as a sport.. ))

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes, that's called rationalization.

((Your call. So what))

Hmm so you don't get scared - well most people do. In fact, most people, including veteran street cops often freak out and lose their ability to perform well under stress..........if they only knew your secret.

((Straw man argumentation.Read again- I referred to control. Fear happens... control does not always happen. Wing chun over time teaches control.
"Secret" ? No secrets- just training. Your posts are going off in different directions. Law enforcement and self defense are not exactly the same thing. Contemporary law enforcement includes
technology, communication and quite a few other things. Different from individual self defense))

I'd love to see you perform in a stress senario drill and see you exude alll that calm.

((Whats the point in wising off?? Read the posts carefully- you will see that I do not reject stress testing. BTW you dont know me- so what's the point in personalizing about imaginary scenarios for me?))

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by YungChun
Love to know what you think about the rest of Yip's students. Feel free to share more thoughts.Don't lose sight of who name dropped.


May I ask what your Lineage is? One question I do not answer, though the response dangles in this forum somewhere.

I do not name drop, nor do I hide behind my lineage.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by yuanfen
((You are making up your own scenarios- and showing fairly superficail understanding of WC. ))



Originally posted by yuanfen
BTW you dont know me- so what's the point in personalizing...

(Jao Da)
Indeed.



Originally posted by yuanfen
Your posts are going off in different directions. Law enforcement and self defense are not exactly the same thing.


I am quite certain of everyone's ability here to recognize the warrior and his plight no matter how his clothing may vary when going into battle.

[Grendel]

Hi YungChun,


Originally posted by YungChun

Yes, they do get hit a lot and very hard in sparring. Have you ever done full or hard contact sparring or sparring type drills?

I had stated that in the past I did box and compete in contact karate among other sports. There is a value in such things, but I have learned that I retain the insights through Wing Chun training. Like Yuanfen, I climb the Wing Chun mountain. Though on another path, I respect his.


Christ my avatar is a plum blossom and you can see the sig. Yes I have studied for quite a while under a student of Yip's :o

I vaguely remember a discussion of the plum blossom symbol. Was that Moy Yat's lineage?


Bruce, as would most serious students would certainly agree with the assessment.

I respect Bruce Lee's memory, but his Wing Chun was not the end-all, be-all of Wing Chun. If you're referring to his mix of martial arts, then I acknowledge that. What do you make of that?


I have never met any muli-decade master or student disagree with something so basic. Most WC students are soft and we all know that.

If by soft you mean out of shape, agreed to a point. Most longterm students that I've met have a certain mental toughness. Many of the best are genuinely tough.


Many WCK students do it for fun or as a hobby and have absolutely no desire to fight and have never been in a fight.

Not necessarily the same thing.


Let's get real: You are going to fight as hard as you train and if you train light with little or no real contact, with no sparring, no hard-core drilling - it ain't gonna be any different in the street.

I don't know how you train except that you say you do sparring, but no one trains as hard as they fight, so you are in the same boat as those who don't spar.

Sparring, boxing, full-contact anything is not going to improve your Wing Chun. It might in an individual make him or her a better fighter, but so does Wing Chun. One gets better at Wing Chun so that one can overcome more powerful and faster individuals.


We are all still quite human. We are all still suseptable to the chemical dump that can rob us of our skills. We should train for it and learn how to use it - or risk actually living that dream where you punch and nothing happens.

I don't know what response you're seeking, but I think I agree with you on learning self control. But can't you find Wing Chun challenges that do this for you? Why do you have to abandon the art?


I have shared a lot. The secret is to train hard not soft.

The terms hard and soft in Wing Chun have specific meaning, but I don't think that you use them in that way. You do know that the highest form of Wing Chun is soft don't you, and it defeats hard?


Various drills are also used with equipment to aid development in the use of power, distance and implementation of WC concepts under varying conditions.

I dunno about the above statement. What I seek and convey to others in Wing Chun is, in this order, structure, precision, timing, speed, and only then, power.


No, all attacks are potentially anything.

That's what I sought to imply. Your differentiation of various attacks seems artificial hence causing my previous sarcasm. :rolleyes:


I can't understand how you can have been involved with MA for more than 30 years and not know what any of those terms are. Have you never sparred in all your 30 years of training?

I don't get out much. Maybe I'm getting forgetful. I thought I had noted that I have sparred at other times. You try living in a cave and see how well you remember things. :D


All those things are radically different kinds of attacks or parts of an attack - look into JKD.

JKD of late has lines that seem to have abandoned all Wing Chun principles. This will cause its various lines to diverge in effectiveness. JKD is inherently inferior to its mother art of Wing Chun although a few of Bruce's students have some good skills.


With structure and precision.
With Wing Chun--Grendel

That's a cop-out my freind.

It wasn't meant to be. I believe that for Wing Chun to defeat a powerful attack, the Wing Chun fighter must use Wing Chun, not power, and especially not abandon Wing Chun principles for others.


Absurd.

I must apologize if anyone felt offended by my reference to WT. I hallucinated that you were a proponent. I am paying attention, but today was a busy day. :D

Andrew S. --- Sorry. Not putting WT or EBMAS down. My reference point just got scrambled a bit.


All of Yip's top students put their money where their mouth was and tested and refined their WC in combat of one kind or another - it's in the original Yip system.

You're right about that. So did some of his worst students. And so did some who were students in name only or who pretend to be his students.


I don't want to offend anyone here

Well, I'm evil, but in this case neither do I, but if someone feels offended, I wouldn't know why. :p


so I will just say that I am not a fan of WT or LT or EB let alone affiliated with them. The spelling of my sig should at least tell you who I am NOT affiliated with.
Sorry. Could you be more specific? :D

For the most, you've kept a cool head in this discussion. I respect those who try to do that.

Regards,

[YungChun]

Originally posted by Grendel
Hi YungChun,

I had stated that in the past I did box and compete in contact karate among other sports.


Many MA have not and most WCK have not had the chance to do real contact 'sparring' and it shows up when WCK gets its butt kicked and the video is posted on some web site.


Originally posted by Grendel

I vaguely remember a discussion of the plum blossom symbol. Was that Moy Yat's lineage?


As far as I know the plum blossom is a universal WCK symbol at least in Yip Man lines and not specific to any one Sifu.


Originally posted by Grendel

I respect Bruce Lee's memory, but his Wing Chun was not the end-all, be-all of Wing Chun. If you're referring to his mix of martial arts, then I acknowledge that. What do you make of that?


I site Bruce as an example of a modern martial art prodegy. Bruce would never win any WCK awards for correctness but the impact he had on CMA and MA in general is almost beyond comprehension. Bruce was for real and his level of dedication is possibly unmatched in modern times.

Bruce was a very smart guy and had a good base in WCK. He understood attribute development - a seed from his WCK. He looked at everything objectively unlike many still today. When he saw Western Boxing he saw value in it. If I am not mistaken what really stood out to him, beyond footwork, was how Boxing trains its fighters to:

1. Hit Hard
2. Take Hits Hard

Bruce understood how important these attributes are and yet how absent they had often been from most training. The truth is that in most training today people are rarely working on these attributes to any great extent. Bruce realized what an advantage the Boxers would have over the typical MA with their patty cake training.

Unlike most of us Bruce, like any egomaniac who wants to be able to beat everyone, immediately made use and developed these attributes with hard training.



Many WCK students do it for fun or as a hobby and have absolutely no desire to fight and have never been in a fight.



Originally posted by Grendel

Not necessarily the same thing.



No not the same at all but both are characteristics of the typical CMA. Now take a look at Boxers - they ALL want to fight because that's what they do - that's almost all they do. This is the real difference between the two models.

Boxers = Fighters @ 100%
MA = Theoretical Fighters @90%


Originally posted by Grendel

I don't know how you train except that you say you do sparring, but no one trains as hard as they fight, so you are in the same boat as those who don't spar.

Sparring, boxing, full-contact anything is not going to improve your Wing Chun. It might in an individual make him or her a better fighter, but so does Wing Chun. One gets better at Wing Chun so that one can overcome more powerful and faster individuals.



Again, it's about attribute development. This includes developing ALL meaningful attributes for combat survival - leave the wrong one out and you greatly increase the chances of failure.



We are all still quite human. We are all still suseptable to the chemical dump that can rob us of our skills. We should train for it and learn how to use it - or risk actually living that dream where you punch and nothing happens.




Originally posted by Grendel

I don't know what response you're seeking, but I think I agree with you on learning self control. But can't you find Wing Chun challenges that do this for you? Why do you have to abandon the art?



Never said or would abandon WCK. This is another attribute: Handling the adreanal dump. This can be trained in many different ways. You train to USE your WCK in the training. See Senario Drilling. This is also part of 'sparring.'



Originally posted by Grendel

The terms hard and soft in Wing Chun have specific meaning, but I don't think that you use them in that way. You do know that the highest form of Wing Chun is soft don't you, and it defeats hard?




No, not that kind of Soft. Most MA today are soft meaning they can't take a punch or give a punch. Most lack the experience needed to handle a physical assault - some will deny this and quote a Kuen Kiut but it won't help them when the **** hits the fan and some big, angry, hairy animal comes for them. I have seen many a student and know many a student who would just wilt if that really happened. There will always be those tough people who can handle it - but those aren't the people we are trying to help. We need to address the issues of 'toughness' both mental and physical in training that isn't a walk in the park.


Originally posted by Grendel

JKD of late has lines that seem to have abandoned all Wing Chun principles. This will cause its various lines to diverge in effectiveness. JKD is inherently inferior to its mother art of Wing Chun although a few of Bruce's students have some good skills.


Gotta be objective. Bruce's original JKD has certain basics whether people follow them or not. The true nature IMO of JKD meaning its objective is actually the same as WCK. This was discussed by WSL - Jeet Kune (Intercepting Fist) is the true path of WCK according to him and does fit in with the Kuen Kuit as well.

But what makes the JKD guys good is their training - hard contact and keeping it real and alive in ...........oh no that word again...sparring.

Sparring isn't just one thing - two guys going at it - it should be a progression from the simple to the complex. In the end it takes no form and just is........like combat.


YC

[Fresh]

D*mn this is one long thread!

YC, someone touched a nerve huh? We got your point. Again and again. Next contestant please --- :D

[kj]

Originally posted by crimsonking
feeding techniques is vital.

Good point, Crimsonking. We incorporate feeding hands as well. FWIW, it was one of the hallmarks of Leung Sheung's teachings, and something carried forward by his students teaching in turn today.

Feeding hands helps to ensure that things aren't inadvertently missed in the randomness and happenstance of other activities over time. In any given engagement however, and except at early stages of learning, the feeds are random from the learner's perspective. It is not a game of patty cake (per the popular ad hominem accusation), and is geared upwards over time commensurate to the learners capabilities, exceeding those capabilities in a managed way to continuously challenge the boundaries of skill to spur growth without motivating the learner to deviate from Wing Chun.

In an ideal world, everyone feeding hands would have Leung Sheung's depth of skill in Wing Chun as well as his breadth of knowledge and skill in other martial arts. Those of us who do not have that luxury must make do with alternative solutions. Short of being fed hands by our teachers (something we should all seek) we can also be fed by advanced partners, and fill gaps by working with cooperative yet challenging outside hands, both in Wing Chun and other martial arts. I am grateful for my teacher's feeding hands at every possible opportunity. Without the luxury of daily interaction with him though, utilizing my partners and outside hands for feeding is a mainstay of my routine practice, in addition to the randomness of chi sau variations. Feeding hands to stimulate proper growth in Wing Chun is an art in itself.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
he name dropped b/c you asked him to then you criticized the people he named It's all chi sau, little one. But hey... I am impressed. You're getting pretty **** sharp, boy!


and since you never tell other people your lineage, and all your posts regarding techniques and methods are hidden in cryptic prose with a condescending attitude nobody can really critique you Insightful, once again!


so you hide behind an air of superiority
Only to those who have an inferiority complex.


about some of the best martial artists who ever lived and some of the best wing chun masters who ever livedPerhaps by your standards.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by YungChun
As far as I know the plum blossom is a universal WCK symbol at least in Yip Man lines and not specific to any one Sifu.True, but those who make you smell it, are usually of the Moy Yat line.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
Whippy

I would think by anyone's standards bruce lee was somebody pretty **** worthy of respect

maybe his personality wasn't so great but as a martial artist
Personality was Bruce's strong point. But, you either liked him or were put off by his extroverted nature. Fun just happened when he was around. A lot of traditional Chinese found him abrasive.

As a martial artist, he was pretty good---natural talent combined with hard work and the good fortune to learn from Wong Shun Leung and Yip Man.

If his is the example of sparring that this thread refers to, then I agree with it. Lee was always looking for ways to add "realism" to his and his students' training.

Regards,

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Personally I have no respect for their Wing Chun, and therefore have no interest in their approaches to training. My standards for Wing Chun are far greater than what the above have shown. Sorry man, but that was uncalled for. Sometimes you just have to know when to keep your opinion to yourself. If you have "no interest" then say nothing. Just let it pass. "Strike when you should, don't strike when you should not."

I'm with WingChunAlex, can we keep the politics out of this and focus on the topic at hand. :(

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by kj
Good point, Crimsonking. We incorporate feeding hands as well. FWIW, it was one of the hallmarks of Leung Sheung's teachings, and something carried forward by his students teaching in turn today. crimsonking or KJ, Can you please tell me what you mean by "feeding hands"? We do something we call "running the hands", I suspect they are the same or at least quite similar, but I may be well off base. Can you provide me a simple example of what you are referring to?

Regards,
Matrix

[kj]

Hi Matrix.


Originally posted by Matrix
crimsonking or KJ, Can you please tell me what you mean by "feeding hands"? We do something we call "running the hands", I suspect they are the same or at least quite similar, but I may be well off base. Can you provide me a simple example of what you are referring to?

The instructor (or feeder) literally attacks, controls, and upsets the learner in an increasingly random manner to elicit a proper Wing Chun response.

Some of the most basic feeding hands begin with straight line strikes for pak sau/pak da practice. This increases to various placements and angles of the fed strikes, and incorporates stepping in and footwork as appropriate. Over time, virtually anything and everything in the Wing Chun repertoire can be elicited and incorporated.

The aim is for the learner to become accustomed and proficient at dealing appropriately with whatever comes their way using only Wing Chun. The feeder may even incorporate attacks and controlling movements outside the scope of Wing Chun if they are adequately competent to do so (as Leung Sheung was). The learner is naturally expected to stay within the bounds of good Wing Chun. My teacher excels at feeding hands, and from first hand experience I can attest that the exercise becomes extremely challenging for the learner. <whew!!> :eek: Still it is something I need much much much more of.

To feed hands which are challenging enough, varied enough, disciplined enough and selectively responsive to elicit a properly executed range of responses from the learner takes a lot of skill in and of itself, especially as the learners progress and grow in their own skill and capability. The range of resonses I'm referring to in the broadest sense is virtually everything in your Wing Chun toolbox. In a way, feeding hands is a sacrifice by the instructor, inasmuch as the instructor or feeder will not be practicing their own best Wing Chun 100% in order to provide optimum benefit for the learner.

Hope this helps at least a little. BTW, I somehow can't get it out of my head that you probably don't look exactly like Keanu Reeves, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Matrix]

Originally posted by kj
The instructor (or feeder) literally attacks, controls, and upsets the learner in an increasingly random manner to elicit a proper Wing Chun response. Kathy Jo, Thank you the very informative description of feeding hands. We do very similar work, with running hands being a step above basic chi sao, then progessing to what you have described as feeding hands. I agree that it is challenging, but essential training. Great fun too.

BTW, I somehow can't get it out of my head that you probably don't look exactly like Keanu Reeves, LOL. Well...not exactly, but I do have a pretty cool pair of sun glasses. :cool:

Thanks again,
Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by wingchunalex
I personally think the reason people don't "get" what yungchun is trying to point out, is because they haven't sparred. If you'd spar you'd get what he's saying. That's quite an assumption you're making! I've sparred many, many times. Full contact kickboxing, in a ring, knockout, as well as less punishing forms. Maybe I don't "get" what he's saying, because I've been there, done that and moved on. Does that make me "better", more "enlightened", of course not. Only a fool would make such claims. I've just chosen a different path. Can't we all just get along? ;)


to me chi sau is not the be all and end all of wing chun. it is a sensitivity drill and a drill to re-train our natural reactions.The fact that you've chosen to constrain chi sao to this limited use is your prerogative. However, there's so much more.

I have no problem if you think sparring is all that and a bag o' chips, but don't think those who don't spar don't "get" some critical point. Now of course these are all generalizations. One size does not fit all, so make your own way along the path to wherever you think you're going.

Thanks for coming out.

Matrix

[fgxpanzerz]

Many students of Yip Man, including Yip Man himself and Bruce Lee, were...RICH MOFOS and didnt have to work. These guys had all day to train. They didnt go to college or work ten hours a day. They had time to dedicate to their training because things were different for them back then. Do you think Yip Man would have been good if he had to work 8 hours a day and pay bills???? Of course Bruce Lee's dedication cant be matched...all of us have bills to pay!!!

[Matrix]

Originally posted by fgxpanzerz
They didnt go to college or work ten hours a day. They had time to dedicate to their training because things were different for them back then. You raise a good point. It's really difficult to give the time and dedication to WC that some of us would like to. For those of us who have full time jobs (I wish I only had to work 10 hour days) and raise children, it's a tough call. As a parent in particular, I think that you must focus on the needs of your children before indulging in personal interests. There is considerable sacrifice involved, but it is worth it. Being a parent is the most important job that you will ever have, IMO. There will be more time for training when they leave the nest. Besides, you'll be that much more patient and hopefully just a little wiser. :cool:

Matrix