Would you follow your opponent to the ground?

[fa_jing]

OK, the situation is, you've caused the opponent to fall or you've knocked him down or thrown him. He is on the ground in a defensive position, shaken up but not seriously hurt. Purely hypothetical situation where the battle is going to continue from this point??

[Water Dragon]

The fight would continue from the cage. But you already know that :)

[Souljah]

is this a competition or street fight scenario?

[Royal Dragon]

Hmmm, my ground sucks about as bad as it can,so I might do a kneling sleeper if I'm set up for it as an extension of the take down, but if I'm not already in a situation where I have some sort of control and crush as an extensiosn of the take down itself, i will back out of the situation, and force him to fight me on his feet.

I may also back out just enough so he can't catch me, but stay close enough to charge in and kick him in the ribs, face, or what ever wile he's in that moment of vulnerability during the transition from being on the ground to standing again.

[rogue]

Depends
Self defense alone, I'd get my ass out of there.

Self defense family, I'd get them running while keeping him in a defensive position on the ground(if possible) using kicks or an improvised weapon. This is stupid but I'm protecting my family.

He has something that is a matter of life or death, I'm following him to the ground hoping he's not a BJJ fighter.

[yenhoi]

Depends.

Not all situations allow for you to safely follow or safely not follow the opponent. If my hands are in good position, and the energys are correct, of course you follow.

[dre]

Pick up the nearest chair and bash the hell out of him while he's in gaurd.

[Oso]

...him to the ground I would have used a similar decision process
as rogue.

yenhoi just made another good point.

If he has buddies around then no.

I also differentiate 'throws' and 'takedown'.

If my goal was only a throw then no, probably not, as
I hopefully had the throw as my final technique to
disengage before scootin' my butt out of there.

I think the decision to follow to the ground should
have been made prior to the technique which sent
him there.

mmmm...not making sense...too many tequila shots
with gin & tonic chasers last night:eek:


matt

[Oso]

another good point...attack the nearest weapon with something
harder.

a good ground guard IS hard to get past so remove it first if you
must get past it.

matt

[Former castleva]

From an overall,logical,easy and military view,no way.
Grounded opponent-inferior position of vulnerability.
Yours-Great position of dominance.

Not that he would not have a change,but changes are yours are good.
Hypothetical.

[yenhoi]

If an opponent has 'pulled guard' on you on the ground, then you are in it.

[Oso]

can you elaborate a little more?

do you mean that if they 'pulled guard' that they pulled you
with them??

thanks,

Matt

[Royal Dragon]

The guard is a position only used, and effective if performed in very close quarters with your opponent. If your not "in it", then you won't see it.

[Chang Style Novice]

I don't think I'd ever follow someone to the ground on purpose because

1 - My ground game is just this sid eof nonexistent
2 - The way I see a 'reality' situation, once you're separated enough from your opponent that he's no longer an immediate threat to you, it's time to leave.

[dre]

er... I meant that the person on the ground had put their legs in front of them (facing you) and was in a Judo/BJJ esque defence posture.

Anyway, I sand with my beat with weapon answer.

[Oso]

dre-I followed you and totally agreed--smash the legs with
a big stick is a fantastic idea-I like a nash(edit*nice*) ash
axe handle:D


CSN-I would follow to ground, all else being equal, because my
ground game is a tad better than my stand up game,
especially against a quicker fighter. But, yes, if you have
tossed your man away from you it's time to beat feet...

RD-I know what the basic bjj/judo guard is, it seemed like maybe
yenhoi was saying something different, but he seems to be
a little enigmatic today :)

And, now, I will say that I think the bjj guard is pretty effective
if you are playing a grappling only rules based game. Otherwise
there are tons of pressure points and nerves on the insides of the
legs just begging to be manipulated not to mention the groin is
pretty open to the elbow, or teeth or whatever.

relative skill levels are still the biggest factor...


Matt

[MonkeySlap Too]

If for some reason:

A> My opponent is not badly hurt already
B. and I have failed to maintain a control over him

and he looks like a skilled BJJ or Sambo player.

I'm running out of there or throwing things at them. Those b@stards do great takedowns from the ground. Let them come back up and play my game.

If I maintained control, but did not disable them on the way down, I will keep them in my torture chamber. The, um, 'cage'.

[FatherDog]

If this is a self-defense situation, I'm running, at this point.

If this is a self-defense situation and for some reason I can't run, I'd be stomping on his face, at this point.

If this is a self-defense situation and I can't run, and I am absolutely sure that he has no friends or allies that are about to help him, and no one else is about to step in and whack on me, then I would follow him to the ground, in an attempt to choke him out, and thus subdue him with as little injury as possible.

I consider the last situation to be an unlikely, one, but if it came up, that's what I'd do. No point in doing serious damage to someone if you can avoid it.

[fa_jing]

What if he's outside of you home with you, in between you and your front door, he was trying to get into your house, and appears to want to continue to fight or continue towards your front door.

WD - your right, I guess I am really thinking of a situation in which you have lost contact. I can see myself flowing into a cage from certain takedowns and continuing the fight from there. How about if he's simply tripped and fallen to the ground, and takes a posture there?


I'm thinking that staying on my feet and kicking at him is an option, while keeping aware of him grabbing one of my legs. Of course, thinking about how to use a weapon or the environment to my advantage is a given.

[Oso]

What if he's outside of you home with you, in between you and your front door, he was trying to get into your house, and appears to want to continue to fight or continue towards your front door.

If you are in an urban environment then stall and wait for the
cops.

If rural, kill him and bury him in the back 40. :)

If he appears to still want to fight and you don't close then he
has to get back up.

If he goes for the door to your house then he will expose himself
to you at some point.


WD - your right, I guess I am really thinking of a situation in which you have lost contact. I can see myself flowing into a cage from certain takedowns and continuing the fight from there. How about if he's simply tripped and fallen to the ground, and takes a posture there?

again, wait, if he wants more he will get back up. don't play
a game you don't want to.


I'm thinking that staying on my feet and kicking at him is an option, while keeping aware of him grabbing one of my legs. Of course, thinking about how to use a weapon or the environment to my advantage is a given. What if he's outside of you home with you, in between you and your front door, he was trying to get into your house, and appears to want to continue to fight or continue towards your front door.

I think kicking at a totally aware downed opponent who appears
to want to fight on the ground may not be the best tactic.

just mho

matt

[dre]

How about I break off my beer bottle and hold it. He'll not trouble me any longer. . .

but then again I tend to think in weapons terms.

[Cheese Dog]

Depends on the situation. If I am VERY sure he is alone, I may go for a choke otherwise I will run if I can, talk him out of fighting further if possible. I agree strongly with what Fatherdog said. If he attacked me with a weapon that changes the situation somewhat. If he still has possesion of the weapon, I'm don't intend to give him a chance to attack me with it again, assuming I can stomp his head, break something, etc., safely. And if there are more than one of them I'm probably to busy dealing with his friend/friends to worry about him (assuming I'm not already dead, k.o. etc.)

[Merryprankster]

Re: BJJ Guard--

Oso has caught the incorrect.

[Oso]

hunh...wah???

[Mizong_Kid]

dddaaammnnnnn...some of you guys are brave of very confident in your ability!

if there wasnt an object to bash the crap out of that mugging, robbing , thieving a$$hole and i'd run after i've f*ckin kicked his balls in and punched his throat! and why not finger jab his **** eyes!!!!

[Merryprankster]

Oso,

I've been poked prodded pushed and knocked around on my legs in just about every conceivable way. Never once did I have a "pressure point," reaction other than discomfort which caused me to shift position vice discontinue my attack from the guard. It's never interrupted my lock or sweep flows.

Elbowing the nuts or getting off shots to the nuts is not so simple when your balance is being manipulated, and at the angle you are at when in the guard. It absolutely can happen, so I am all for taking the shot if it exists. But to say it leaves you vulnerable in that way is like saying that wrestling pins leave the pinner vulnerable to biting--not necessarily your best viable option.

If you want to beat on somebody in the guard, best options are to develop a strong base and ground and pound, or, (and much better for SD), disengage ASAP, standup and commence boot stomping.

[Oso]

<<I've been poked prodded pushed and knocked around on my legs in just about every conceivable way. Never once did I have a "pressure point," reaction other than discomfort which caused me to shift position vice discontinue my attack from the guard. It's never interrupted my lock or sweep flows.>>

<<Elbowing the nuts or getting off shots to the nuts is not so simple when your balance is being manipulated, and at the angle you are at when in the guard. It absolutely can happen, so I am all for taking the shot if it exists. But to say it leaves you vulnerable in that way is like saying that wrestling pins leave the pinner vulnerable to biting--not necessarily your best viable option.>>

I didn't say any of it was simple. I was saying that there are
targets available in a non-sport situation. Whether somone is
capable of attacking them succesfully is where the 'relative skill
level' comes into play. I'm not going to submit to playing a
grappling only game with an attacker where it seems that that
is his comfort zone until my other options were rendered null
and void.

<<when your balance is being manipulated>>

Is anything simple when this is happening? Both sides are
probably (or should be) trying to keep the other one off balance.

Ok, correct me if I am wrong here...but, in the bjj guard you have
intentionally pulled the opponent between your legs, right?

I still think this causes a vulnerability to groin attacks. Maybe a
punch or elbow won't have enough power at that range but
a grab and twist wouldn't feel so swell. EVERY ma posture
has it's vulnerabilities.

<<If you want to beat on somebody in the guard, best options are to develop a strong base and ground and pound, or, (and much better for SD), disengage ASAP, standup and commence boot stomping.>>

I agree with all that but (now, please note I'm giving bjj due
credit here) I think that a good ground fighter/grappler will take
you back down if you start kicking into them. If you can
disengage from someone who just got your respect on the
ground then stay the hell out of there.

Again, it all boils down to who is better at what they know. No
one style is invincible. I just have the above stated opinions
about a particular vulnerability I see in the bjj guard. I am
supremely confident that you or anyone else could find a
vulnerability in something I do.:)

btw, I have rolled around with some bjj folks after a bjj seminar
I went to. Good seminar, decent guys (well, except for one but
that had little to do with his chosen art). I rolled with 3 of them
and submitted to one of them on an ankle lock (my weakness).

If there was a bjj school around here, I would be cross training
with them.

*Edit* make that 'good bjj school'

thanks,

Matt

[ShaolinTiger00]

Whether somone is capable of attacking them succesfully is where the 'relative skill level' comes into play.

- Unless you are a grappler, you will never have the training to make this skill capable.


Is anything simple when this is happening? Both sides are probably (or should be) trying to keep the other one off balance.

You've just made it crystal clear than you do not understand the guard. (Tha's ok, because you appear to be open enough to learn.) The guard is very stable. The person caught basically has one option - escape and most movement he makes puts him at danger to being swept and mounted. While the attacker has many options.


Ok, correct me if I am wrong here...but, in the bjj guard you have

You are wrong. The guard is the guard. How you get there may be either purposely or accident. (ex a guy tackled you and knocked you to the ground and here you are. He knows nothing of "the guard" and is trying to punch you.)



I still think this causes a vulnerability to groin attacks.

No more than any other position. Q:What do you think I'm doing with my arms? A: Controling your arms, punching you, putting you into a submission, setting up a sweep.

Isn't your groin open to a kick while in a deep rooted stance ?

As you said, every style has weakness. I agree w/ your entire paragraph. but don't look for bjj's to be on the ground. - Bjj's weakness - 5 seconds earlier while you both were standing. ie- knowing how to stop the shoot, knowing how not to fall into someones guard after a takedown, knowing how to fight your way out or controling the clinch(if you want to throw then control on the ground.

Hmm doesn't that sound exactly like Sanshou?????

[SevenStar]

"Grounded opponent-inferior position of vulnerability.
Yours-Great position of dominance."

That depends on the poisiton you are left in after you throw me. You could be off balance, or you can be leaning over, meaning I may be able to grab you. If you are extremely close to me, I can probably grab a leg and get you down before I sustain any real damage.

MP beat me to the whole pressure point, groin strike while in guard thing

[Oso]

Whether somone is capable of attacking them succesfully is where the 'relative skill level' comes into play.

-Unless you are a grappler, you will never have the training to make this skill capable.

Will you define 'grappler' for me? I don't want to disagree with
that yet. Whatever system you study has to teach you the
skills to ground fight. I don't think any of the grappling arts has
cornered the market on those skills.

Is anything simple when this is happening? Both sides are probably (or should be) trying to keep the other one off balance.

You've just made it crystal clear than you do not understand the guard. (Tha's ok, because you appear to be open enough to learn.) The guard is very stable. The person caught basically has one option - escape and most movement he makes puts him at danger to being swept and mounted. While the attacker has many options.

Ok, correct me if I am wrong here...but, in the bjj guard you have

You are wrong. The guard is the guard. How you get there may be either purposely or accident. (ex a guy tackled you and knocked you to the ground and here you are. He knows nothing of "the guard" and is trying to punch you.)

Will you define the mechanics of the guard? Obviously I
understand it to be something it isn't or don't fully understand
it.

I still think this causes a vulnerability to groin attacks.

No more than any other position. Q:What do you think I'm doing with my arms? A: Controling your arms, punching you, putting you into a submission, setting up a sweep.

I think I said that there were certainly vulnerabilities to EVERY
other posture. I realize that whoever is in the guard is trying
to do unto me before I do unto him. I say again: That's where
relative ability comes into play. Both sides are trying to do their
thing. Whoever is better at their thing will probably win.

Isn't your groin open to a kick while in a deep rooted stance?

That depends on the stance. Horse, yes but I don't know of
anyone who uses the horse as their 'neutral' fighting stance.
Most other postures offer some protection to the groin.
But, yes, any stance is vulnerable from one direction or the
other to some sort of attack or the other.

As you said, every style has weakness. I agree w/ your entire paragraph. but don't look for bjj's to be on the ground. - Bjj's weakness - 5 seconds earlier while you both were standing. ie- knowing how to stop the shoot, knowing how not to fall into someones guard after a takedown, knowing how to fight your way out or controling the clinch(if you want to throw then control on the ground.

hmmm, since I'm out here anyway I'll saw a little more....

I don't know that I really see the 'shoot' as anything special.
Theoretically it is a grappling attack to the mid/low gate. If
you are out of position to defend against that then you are out
of position and you get eaten. No different than any other
attack to any other gate.

I'm not trying to troll or flame here. Let me ask this though:
In the mma fighting hasn't there been a backlash of sorts where
the fighters have to be more rounded? The Gracies came in with
concentrated grappling attacks that just blew everyone away.
Then, after everyone got the idea that you had to be good on
the ground as well, the playing field sort of leveled out. Some
people better on the ground, some better on their feet. Each one
trying desperately to stay where they are most comfortable.

I've just seen a couple of the more recent bouts on PPV and I
hear the announcers talking about this competitors game is really
stand up but he's been working on his ground game but would
really like to keep his opponent up and playing his game.

In a fight between two opponents who have covered the bases
in their training it's not going to be the style that wins it will be
the fighter.

I think that what the bjj/mma community has going for it over
some other ma communities is that they train very hard. Shame
on the rest of us for that difference.

I feel like I'm being a little repetative but I just really feel like it's
who's better at their game and not any particular game in and of
itself.

ST00, I would greatly appreciate more detail on what the guard
is. Thanks

Matt

[Oso]

I didn't realize you trained bjj. Never looked at your profile before.

I would appreciate any detail of the guard you have to offer.
Evidently I'm missing something and I don't like that.

I sorta feel like you guys are saying that the guard is
just short of invulnerable to attack.

I learned techniques in hung gar to close off the groin.
Theoretically they are supposed to be very good but I
wouldn't tell anyone that they couldn't do this or that
to my groin just because of that training.

I also learned techniques to protect against a choke
that don't involve my hands blocking the choke but
I SURE as hell wouldn't say I couldn't be choked.

I have been very lucky to have had 4 years of hs wrestling
at the very beginning of my ma training and two intructor's
who had us on the ground at least 50% of the time, probably
more. I realize that a lot of cma people don't do that but
luckily I have and continue to train my students that way.


peace,

Matt

[JusticeZero]

I'll stay away from a wrestling match, thank you very much. First, I know my limits. Second, even if i'm in a huge open lot with noone in sight but several of my closest friends, I assume if I go to ground that i'm going to get my head kicked in. Third, if I go to ground I assume that when the police arrive they'll immediately arrest me as the aggressor. Actually I always assume that the police will arrest me on sight and congratulate the other guy in any altercation, but if i'm on the ground, I can't do anything about it. Finally, I know how defensible a position on the ground can be and cracking that particular shell leaves me open to being dragged into they're murphy world.

[SevenStar]

I dont' think you have a misconception of what the guard is or how its applied. There are pressure points in the leg to manipulate, but doing so against someone trained to stop them proves quite difficult, as will a groin grab, as while you are trying, he is controlling your arms. Also, they aren't disabling - they are just minor nusiances at best. While in guard, your groin is presse against your opponent, so you have to make space ifyou are going to punch or elbow there, and when you make space, you are also giving him the room he needs to do something. The whole time you are trying those attacks, he's making attacks of his own and manipulating your balance, making it hard to accomplist anything. Like you've already stated, it's not impossible, but not easy.

[Oso]

sevenstar

lol, ok. I think one of the problems with the board here is that
it takes a lot of typing to say what we want to say vs. a minute
or two of verbal.

so....

Right! That's all I've been trying to say.

As with cma in my neck of the woods, bjj or anything else
is hard to come by. There's a kid at the gym where I teach
who has some decent skills he has picked up somewhere
but didn't want to roll around anymore after the first couple
of times I talked him into it.

funny, he said he didn't want to anymore because he could
tell I was holding back.:confused:

****, I was almost begging this 22 year old kid to play with me:mad:

I told him that I just really wanted someone to train with and I
wasn't out to sucker him into a trap where I beat the crap out
of him or anything and that he had good strength and speed
and was a decent grappler.

still wouldn't play

ok,sorry, I'm just jonesing for a decent workout

Matt

[SevenStar]

are there any judo clubs near you?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Grappler /n./
-A person whom trains specifically in the skills of throwing, takedowns, “clinching” an opponent, and groundfighting skills including chokes, joint locks and pins that give superior position and full control over an opponent.

Whoever is better at their thing will probably win.

- I agree with your logic, but there is an element that I do not think you are seeing. To be better at attacking an opponent while caught in his guard, you must already have a strong base of grappling skills. – example. –

- Lets take everyone’s favorite forum member MerryPrankster. Let’s say he makes a wise-ass crack about my wife and I pick him up and slam him on the ground with a double leg, but stupidly I fall right into his guard. Probably before he lands, He’s going to start working on me and it’s only a matter of time before I get myself into trouble. I might try to whack him in the cajones, but truthfully he’s going to be tying up my arms and sweeping me over on to my back before I know which end is up!! Now let’s say MP doesn’t know it but I’m also a grappler. I realize I’m in his guard and immediately take steps to improve my situation (proper posture, working in elbows to create room etc.) Now I’ve got a chance, but only because I know what he can do. To defeat, you must understand first and that means training with it. If you’re only method of passing the guard relies on a shot to the groin you will not be prepared for a full contact encounter. Just like every other vital shot – they can work but its better to have control over an opponent first, then apply this damaging blow.

yes but I don't know of anyone who uses the horse as their neutral fighting stance.

-I do not know anyone who uses the guard in this manner either, except for sport. The guard is a transitional movement, unless you are locked w/ full guard and tying up the opponents arms with overhooks and holding on for dear life... Just as kf guys explain that we do not stand in deep stances like horse, or bow and arrow, neither do bjj guys hang out on their asses waving their legs like tentacles..

The guard.. this alone could be a huge thread. To start with know that there are dozens of guards. Full guard, closed guard, open guard, butterfly guard, spider guard, De la Riva guard, ½ guard, combinations of the above.. you get the idea.

All of these guards have 1 key element. Control thru better leverage. My hips are over yours and my levers and fulcrums (read arms and legs) are able to control you while you cannot get to me. From here I have many options from “sweeping” you – unbalancing you and putting you on your back (while I still have control – its never relinquished)
To submissions – armbars, chokes, neck cranks that I may apply directly from the guard or may sweep you then apply.. etc.

I’m not sure exactly what your inquiry was abou the guard. Please be as specific as possible and I’ll do my best to explain, or point you to a website that will probably do a better job. (Roy Harris comes to mind.)


A well–rounded fighter is better than any one dimensional guy. That’s a no-brainer. But the majority of these men see grappling as the base and kicking punching as the supplement. Its easy to clinch! This was a message I wrote to a group of friends of mine that were discussing why I was such a strong advocate of sanshou and judo/bjj.

Consider the reality of a fight. Rare are the case of two guys bent on fighting standing 15 feet apart with no obstacle in the way. (That reminds me of those great samurai movies w/long grass blowing in the wind), where you as a striker have the ability to keep moving and keep fighting at your preferred range. More likely you will be much closer and starts off with a grab on your shoulder, a push, a face to face stare etc. (see "macho") or once you have walked into a confined area, vacant parking lot etc. The time you will have to strike and stun an opponent will be much less and must be an "automatic" response.
Without this reflex conditioning you've just put yourself about 1/2 a second from a jacket grab, a bull rush, a football tackle, a "hockey jersey" pull or a bearhug or his own pugilistic skills (maybe he's a martial artist, maybe he gets in lots of fights!) The striking range is quickly gapped and control must be regained to get out of this situation as quickly as possible. (Again as Taz said - do what you need to do and be done with it.)
Ditto for the clinch. Unless you know how to act quickly this range will also go to the aggressor who may not have skill but has momentum, possible strength and gravity on his side to take you down.
The ground: - that's been hashed out already. If you get mounted by a guy he may just "ground and pound" you until the police sirens come roaring in. (you pray)

The point of my long-winded comment is that your training will dictate your actions and if you do not train these "core" techniques full strength against fully resisting opponents then you will not be adequately prepared to do them under the immense emotional and psychological pressure of a true fight. (Granted you cannot practice knees to the groin or eye gouges on a training partner, but they can be practiced on a heavy bag or similar) and more importantly as Taz mentions, Training must include all ranges to be a proper art. A "mixed martial art" mentality to cover the gaps and holes that each art has.

[Oso]

Thank you, I will reread after class and get back.

I think like I said to SevenStar, lots of typing is needed to convey
ideas that are easier spoken

Matt

[Daredevil]

I've been thinking about this question re: my training in the past, so might as well share my thoughts.

Of course, it all depends on the situation. The nature of the ground would be one thing to consider. Outside of such factors, I'd have to ask what I want from the conflict. If I just want to escape, I wouldn't follow to the ground, instead I'd just run like hell. If I'm going for damage, which would be a rare occurance, then it's another matter entirely. Unless, .. unless there are multiple opponents, in which case I'd probably just run anyway. The same applies for armed opponents.

I'm rather light-weight and my ground game is rather poor, so if I knew my opponent (based on what has happened before and how we've played out the situation) was a trained grappler I would never follow him down to the ground. The same applies if he is much bigger than me, as I don't think my ground technique is enough to equalize for a sizable difference in strength.

However, if he seemed untrained and not terribly impressive in physique, I would follow down if I could immediately go for a superior position. I trust my ferociousness to give me an advantage over an untrained man, both standing and down on the ground. Superior position in this case means taking the mount or controlling him behind his back somehow. Depending on how that goes, I'd either go for ground and pound (which, if you are mounting, and the ground is asphalt, will be quite nasty), with punches and throwing his head against the ground (and/or including any nasty obsctruction with edges). Otherwise I might go for a simple arm lock or a choke.

[Oso]

Grappler /n./
-A person whom trains specifically in the skills of throwing, takedowns, “clinching” an opponent, and groundfighting skills including chokes, joint locks and pins that give superior position and full control over an opponent.

FROM EARLIER POST
Unless you are a grappler, you will never have the training to make this skill capable.



ok, I will have to disagree with your previos statement at least from my training and perspective. Everything I have studied in cma has included these skills and defending against these skills.
NOT saying that I am better than a comparably trained bjj stylist
but I'm aware of the same things.

Whoever is better at their thing will probably win.

- I agree with your logic, but there is an element that I do not think you are seeing. To be better at attacking an opponent while caught in his guard, you must already have a strong base of grappling skills. – example. –

- Lets take everyone’s favorite forum member MerryPrankster. Let’s say he makes a wise-ass crack about my wife and I pick him up and slam him on the ground with a double leg, but stupidly I fall right into his guard. Probably before he lands, He’s going to start working on me and it’s only a matter of time before I get myself into trouble. I might try to whack him in the cajones, but truthfully he’s going to be tying up my arms and sweeping me over on to my back before I know which end is up!! Now let’s say MP doesn’t know it but I’m also a grappler. I realize I’m in his guard and immediately take steps to improve my situation (proper posture, working in elbows to create room etc.) Now I’ve got a chance, but only because I know what he can do. To defeat, you must understand first and that means training with it. If you’re only method of passing the guard relies on a shot to the groin you will not be prepared for a full contact encounter. Just like every other vital shot – they can work but its better to have control over an opponent first, then apply this damaging blow.

I would like to suggest that a competant martial artist in any
system should (should!) be aware of body mechanics. Anything
anyone can do with their body can be read by someone skilled
enough to read body movement. In a random situation you
DON'T know what any particular person is capable of so it comes
down to reading their body movements and making the best
judgement call that you can.

I would like to add that if I had someone fully hooked up in my
double leg that I would sure as hell be trying to make them
unconscious or at least mightily stunned with the impact of the
fall. Might not do it but I would go as far as to sacrifice myself
to a minor injury to get their head to the concrete first.

yes but I don't know of anyone who uses the horse as their neutral fighting stance.

-I do not know anyone who uses the guard in this manner either, except for sport. The guard is a transitional movement, unless you are locked w/ full guard and tying up the opponents arms with overhooks and holding on for dear life... Just as kf guys explain that we do not stand in deep stances like horse, or bow and arrow, neither do bjj guys hang out on their asses waving their legs like tentacles..

good point, well taken. nothing should be static.

The guard.. this alone could be a huge thread. To start with know that there are dozens of guards. Full guard, closed guard, open guard, butterfly guard, spider guard, De la Riva guard, ½ guard, combinations of the above.. you get the idea.

All of these guards have 1 key element. Control thru better leverage. My hips are over yours and my levers and fulcrums (read arms and legs) are able to control you while you cannot get to me. From here I have many options from “sweeping” you – unbalancing you and putting you on your back (while I still have control – its never relinquished)
To submissions – armbars, chokes, neck cranks that I may apply directly from the guard or may sweep you then apply.. etc.

I’m not sure exactly what your inquiry was abou the guard. Please be as specific as possible and I’ll do my best to explain, or point you to a website that will probably do a better job. (Roy Harris comes to mind.)

Just basic curiousity. I was/am apparently missing something
about the guard and there seemed to be folks who could
educate me. Like anything in ma, it's more detailed than I
was seeing. Of course there would be multiple uses and
specifics about guards...I just didn't know what they were.

A well–rounded fighter is better than any one dimensional guy. That’s a no-brainer. But the majority of these men see grappling as the base and kicking punching as the supplement. Its easy to clinch! This was a message I wrote to a group of friends of mine that were discussing why I was such a strong advocate of sanshou and judo/bjj.

Consider the reality of a fight. Rare are the case of two guys bent on fighting standing 15 feet apart with no obstacle in the way. (That reminds me of those great samurai movies w/long grass blowing in the wind), where you as a striker have the ability to keep moving and keep fighting at your preferred range. More likely you will be much closer and starts off with a grab on your shoulder, a push, a face to face stare etc. (see "macho") or once you have walked into a confined area, vacant parking lot etc. The time you will have to strike and stun an opponent will be much less and must be an "automatic" response.

well, this is the goal of any ma, right?


Without this reflex conditioning you've just put yourself about 1/2 a second from a jacket grab, a bull rush, a football tackle, a "hockey jersey" pull or a bearhug or his own pugilistic skills (maybe he's a martial artist, maybe he gets in lots of fights!) The striking range is quickly gapped and control must be regained to get out of this situation as quickly as possible. (Again as Taz said - do what you need to do and be done with it.)
Ditto for the clinch. Unless you know how to act quickly this range will also go to the aggressor who may not have skill but has momentum, possible strength and gravity on his side to take you down.
The ground: - that's been hashed out already. If you get mounted by a guy he may just "ground and pound" you until the police sirens come roaring in. (you pray)

The point of my long-winded comment is that your training will dictate your actions and if you do not train these "core" techniques full strength against fully resisting opponents then you will not be adequately prepared to do them under the immense emotional and psychological pressure of a true fight. (Granted you cannot practice knees to the groin or eye gouges on a training partner, but they can be practiced on a heavy bag or similar) and more importantly as Taz mentions, Training must include all ranges to be a proper art. A "mixed martial art" mentality to cover the gaps and holes that each art has.

Great commentary ! I was a bouncer for 7 years and saw this
sort of thing, and was involved in it, many times.

I think I would like to say this in closing:

bjj/mma mentality may be what is needed to kick start cma
stylists into training what I believe there art already holds.

hope that sounded right. it was meant to.

g'night

Matt

[Oso]

no, there ain't squat in this town to speak of.

a hung gar guy that teaches at home, i actually mean to get
in touch with him but have not heard anything of his personality
yet so would like to get some info before introducing myself.
He is supposed to be pretty bad ass though.

another guy I know from years back but who has gone all
internal. A very good fighter as I have sparred with him
before and gotten whacked good:D

2 good traditional karate guys and that's it except for the usual
host of tkd/sda people.

several good tai chi people but you know...no sparring there.

you're DC right? I'm trying to start getting up there several
times a year if I can get the money and my vehicle in line for
the trips. Can I give you a shout if I'm up there?

Matt

[SevenStar]

Ma, and I thought there was nothing where I am! MP is in the DC area. I'm in TN.

[dnc101]

"Would you follow your opponent to the ground?"

Intentionally? No!

Pick up something heavy and hit him with it. Stomp him. Attack vulnerable targets as he tries to rise. Kick him. Leave. Just let him lie there. Whatever- except following him down.

[Oso]

There was supposedly a shoot fighting school here but
apparently they were following the crowd right after
the UFC made all that popular and closed right before I
moved here. I actually looked at their old space to rent
but it was a poor location.

Matt

[ShaolinTiger00]

a snippett from a great post on why you need to learn groundfighting..


"a STREET FIGHT is the last place you want to be in a street fight! Usually, you go to the ground in a street fight BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER! In the real world, people trip (on curbs, curbstones, rocks, other combatants), slip (on mud, snow, water, because you wore slick-soled dress shoes on a date), try takedowns that seemed like a good idea at the time but didn't work out the way you planned (he grabs on to you as you try to sweep his legs out, great drunken ******* that he is, and you both go down), and, surprise, you get thrown or knocked down! Having a good sprawl is great, but will not keep you upright in all the above circumstances. Once you're down, your new friend may not let you get up so quick.

You don't intend to get in an accident every time you drive, but you still (should) wear your seat belt, right?"

[Oso]

yep...several years ago, hmmm, probably over 10 now that I
think about it, I went to grab a guy while I was working (as a
bouncer) and next thing I know I'm on the ground. Had no
clue how I got there...could have been him, could have been
an accident...I was able to finish from there as he didn't seem
to have any other skills but I was certainly surprised to find
myself (the big bad kf guy who thinks he can grapple:D ) on
the ground.

matt

[ShaolinTiger00]

and you were a wrestler. ;)

[fa_jing]

Good point about slamming vs. the guard. If you have enough strength, a la the Bob Sapp / Minotauro fight, except on a hard surface.

If the flow of a takedown gave me an advantageous position, I would follow and use my basic knowledge of positioning and strikes on the ground, against an unknown opponent. I might try a choke, eye or groin clawing, but definitely no fancy arm breaks. If he managed to pull something like a guard I would try to elbow my way out...

[ShaolinTiger00]

NOT saying that I am better than a comparably trained bjj stylist
but I'm aware of the same things.

-Good. Gotta start somewhere.

I would like to suggest that a competant martial artist in any
system should (should!) be aware of body mechanics. Anything
anyone can do with their body can be read by someone skilled
enough to read body movement. In a random situation you
DON'T know what any particular person is capable of so it comes
down to reading their body movements and making the best
judgement call that you can.

- While in theory I think you are 100% correct, the reality of a situation doesn’t give you time for such analysis. Adrenaline dump, heart thumping, legs shaking, tunnel vision. While you be able to still recognize telegraphed movements or in grappling, feel a weakness in his base, you’re still on autopilot…

I would like to add that if I had someone fully hooked up in my
double leg that I would sure as hell be trying to make them
unconscious or at least mightily stunned with the impact of the
fall. Might not do it but I would go as far as to sacrifice myself
to a minor injury to get their head to the concrete first.

- as a wrestler turned sanshou player turned judo/bjj player, There is one thing I know – throws/takedowns and the aftermath- falls.

You’d be very surprised at how difficult it is to knock a guy out with a throw. Throw to control and either “mount him” for control or while standing make a choice to run or to finish what you started.. don’t throw with the expectation that it will KO him. You’d be better off with a swift uppercut or palm strike or a neck strike eye jab to stun him.

Nice talking to you Matt.

Btw : your footer; trick question. Pie IS heaven!

[Oso]

Adrenaline dump, heart thumping, legs shaking, tunnel vision.

Isn't this happening on both sides?

you’re still on autopilot…

true, but that's what we are training for: the ability to have our
style work whether we are thinking about it or not.

You’d be very surprised at how difficult it is to knock a guy out with a throw.

Not at all, I know it is rare to improbable to count on a KO but
I'll take even a split second of a stun after a throw to count it
as a succesful throw.

Good talking to you as well.

Btw : your footer; trick question. Pie IS heaven!

ahhh...PIE (moment of silence for all the pies slain in the past
few weeks)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by fa_jing
Good point about slamming vs. the guard. If you have enough strength, a la the Bob Sapp / Minotauro fight, except on a hard surface.

If the flow of a takedown gave me an advantageous position, I would follow and use my basic knowledge of positioning and strikes on the ground, against an unknown opponent. I might try a choke, eye or groin clawing, but definitely no fancy arm breaks. If he managed to pull something like a guard I would try to elbow my way out...

nothing fancy about arm breaks, really. you just take them if the opportunity there. alot of times, those are accomplished easier than chokes, as people tend to leave their arms available if they have no grappling experience.

if you're in someone's guard, I'd reccomend getting out first, not elbowing. stand up and slam him if you can elbows are short range, and guard can be used to control distances, in addition to him trying to control your arms so that you don't hit him.

[Royal Dragon]

I think he meant to use elbows to facilliate the escape.

[neptunesfall]

if i'm fighting an opponent and they're on the ground, it's from me executing a sucessful sweep, trip or throw.
if i've done it correctly, i'll either have control of an arm with them on the ground, or they've landed on their face/head/neck.
if i have the arm, there's the set up for an arm break or other attack.
if they've landed on their face/head/neck, most likely there isn't going to be much more of a fight.
either way, i'm getting out of there asap.

[Oso]

If the poor bloke hasn't just up and given me the arm bar/break
then I like to start small circle and work into it...a finger lock to a
wrist lock to the elbow to the shoulder...again, that is if I am
fighting for the control and a lot of that depends on the pain
control of the opponent...breaking something doesn't always
finish the fight. Also, you reliquish some control of the opponent's
body when you break something...you can no longer control
their skeleton from beyond the break. You can of course control
them with the pain of having the broken bit twisted around a
whole bunch.

the pinching, grabbing, twisting and elbowing I've been talking
about were not intended to finish anything...just attempts to
create advantage. My ultimate goal would be to get out if
that was the most advantageous tactic at the time.


Also, there is a 3rd area of chin na besides joint and muscle
manipulation: Cavity Press. This requires a higher level of
experience and skill to apply...a level I am not exactly at but
some of those targets are also on my list of places to grab.
I could get lucky :)

matt

[scotty1]

Without having read the whole thread, I possibly shouldn't post, but in answer to the question: in a self defense context, if my opponent was going to the floor I would think "job done: and leg it.

I don't know sh!t about ground work and would never go there willingly.

[JusticeZero]

Originally posted by Oso
>Adrenaline dump, heart thumping, legs shaking, tunnel vision.
Isn't this happening on both sides?Why would you ever want to count on the assumption that the other guy doesn't have a complete immunity to adrenaline problems, three knives, two guns, friends with rifles a block away, and the entire police department of the city on his payroll?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by JusticeZero
Why would you ever want to count on the assumption that the other guy doesn't have a complete immunity to adrenaline problems, three knives, two guns, friends with rifles a block away, and the entire police department of the city on his payroll?

D@mn, you know too much about me!

[Oso]

who say's I'm not the one with comlete zenlike control over
my self?

Plan for the worst.
Always.

That really wasn't what we were talking about, anyway.

Matt

[fa_jing]

Yes, I meant apply pressure with the elbows to the insides of the thighs, I think there's a pain point there that will encourage them to loosen up on the guard. About arm-breaks, I know they're not that difficult but I am inexperienced there - I know how to do the most basic variations but couldn't necessarily pull them off when it mattered - my best success on the ground has always been achieving favorable position and then striking.

[red5angel]

hmmm, I can't think of a real good reason for following my opponent to the ground. Now I have a superior position, I can use my feet on all his vital parts while the majority of my own are out of reach.....

[ShaolinTiger00]

A hypothectical addendum to the original post.

Let's say he's either hopped up on PCP etc., or is suffering from mential illness,
Both being delusional and aggrressive.

You want to restrain him so that he doesn't hurt others, yet do not want him to be severely injured in the process.


just a thought...

[red5angel]

ST - interesting additions, restraining is the hard part, especially in this case when the guy is hopped up on drugs. By the way, just so it's clear to everyone, contrary to popular belief, PCP and other similar drugs don't make someone super strong but they do release inhibitions and dull pain receptors.

I would have to say it also matters if you are alone or not. If you are alone, you have to do what you have to do. If he is on the ground, can you run fast enough? Is he going to hurt someone else? At this point extreme measures might be necessary.

Here is what we were told once at our preseason meeting with the local county sheriffs for my seasonal job, if the guy is on drugs and resisting, and he is going to do damage to someone other then himself, we were given their permission to do what the sheriffs office does in those cases, whatever is necessary to get the person out of the situation. A person on drugs is not rational and cannot be dealt with rationally, you get them in restraints as quickly as possible. If your alone you get help.

[ShaolinTiger00]

"they do release inhibitions and dull pain receptors."

True.

I'm glad you mentioned the police dept. (again from that same post) the following:

"Your job may require you to take someone down and handcuff them, i.e., law enforcement officers, military personnel on prisoner snatch or peace-keeping missions, loss control prevention/security guards, etc.. Have you ever tried to get handcuffs on an actively resisting suspect without restricting his mobility by putting him on the ground? If not, you have three choices:

1) Shoot him until he is as dead as a beaver hat / disco / Democratic party political dominance (probably not recommended in all circumstances), OR

2) Have a lot of back-up (preferably large male officers who powerlift), execute the "polyester pile-up" technique," and pray that you are not caught between the offender and the officers on top of you, OR

3) If you are alone, and/or he is bigger and stronger and more chemically enhanced than you and your partner put together, have some skills that rely less on brute strength than a) leverage b) balance c) technique. Hmmm, where have we heard those three facets of that equation before?

"The ground can be your friend. It limits his movements, allowing joint locking techniques to be far more effective and difficult to escape from than if those joint locks are applied standing, aikido or kung fu-style. If he is on the bottom, it limits his shoulder rotation and hip movement, reducing his ability to effectively strike. If it is not good for one person in a fight to be the one on the ground, then obviously, it is going to be better for the other person. WHY NOT BE THAT OTHER PERSON? "

[Merryprankster]

Oso,

I'm sorry I didn't respond. I was travelling. I wasn't meaning to be a ******* :)

Feel free to contact me any time you are coming up and I will be glad to host you. I have an extra bedroom. Of course, you might turn out to be a total ***** in which case the offer is rescinded :)

More or less what could be said has been said.

[Oso]

Cool. I'm originally from Richmond so I get up there a couple of
times a year to see my brother.

I'm probably no more of a of one than anyone else on the board.:)

I'm hoping to head that way sometime in late winter early
spring...late march at the latest.

thanks,

Matt