art vs. money

[netfreak]

Hi all. I'm currently trying to study 7 star praying mantis, but my schedule is in the way. My sifu charges around $45 a month for three classes one hour each. I thought about paying around $60 or a bit more for two classes of an hour an half each, in order to complete the three hours. My question is, how much would you guys pay for good training? My sifu is a great martial artist, but i'm still considering other options. Oh well, any advice is GREATLY appreciated.

[sing fu]

Netfreak,

This is a little off-topic, but I'd suggest a weekly class of even only an hour is probably better than only one or two 'big' classes a month - the regularity is much more beneficial for hard-wiring your training to you.

Good Luck!

[netfreak]

yeah it's a bit off topic, but from lots of places i've read, money is usually a concern for many students. but thanks for the advice

[sing fu]

It's a question of priorities. I understand you might have studies, or family obligations which come first, but YOU decide how to use your 24 hours. I went to school and worked another 6 hours at night to get the money for training I wanted.

With it being the New Year, it may be a good time to assess what you want, and the steps you'll need to take to get it.

[SaMantis]

netfreak, is that 3 classes a week or 3 classes a month? Group or private?

$45-60/month for 3 group classes a week (or 2 longer classes) is not bad.

Either way, I feel your pain. My work schedule right now means I can only get 2 classes in a week. :(

[netfreak]

It's three classes a week. I just talked to him, and it will be me and someother guy. Practically, it's $45 a month for near personal training. He said i might be able to work something out too:D
Yeah, my resolution is to be more organized, sing fu, and i'm going to make it a top priority. Thanks for the advice guys.

"The more you swet in training, the less you bleed in combat"

[sing fu]

And here's me thinking three lessons a week :eek:

Sounds like you got yourself a good situation there Netfreak - all the best with it!!:)

[Dachengdao]

Hi Netfreak, where are you located? Sure can't be New York! Even bad teachers here charge a minimum of $100 a month for much less class time. My classes are twice weekly for 90 mins each. most students, however, opt for a delux membership which gives them all the classes 4X weekly. (Approx 12 hours each week). On top of that I hold monthly workshops and seminars. I only ask my students to commit to a mere 20 minutes of Zhan Zhuang everyday to practice at home on their own. Of course I'm happy if they do more.
When I teach privately, I'd much rather have the student do a larger chunk of time less frequently. You need sufficient time to warm up as well as cool down, and you need time for lot of repititions so you don't forget. I feel so strongly about this that I offer steep discounts for additional time over an hour. Still, there are people set in their ways that don't mind paying extra to do one hour three times or four times weekly where two three hour sessions would surfice and cost $500-$800 less each month. Not to say that I'm not grateful for the extra income, but we Chinese don't like waste. I'm more content to see my students spend their time and money more efficiently.
This is my view, but more important is what works for you and your teacher. Listen to his advice, but the final decision is yours. Good luck in your training!

[yu shan]

First, your thread and profile are in question. You are studying 7* from a Great Martial Artist, at a very cheap price. Yet you are considering other options? Shame on you... Why learn Porche KF at VW prices? If your Shrfu is so good, he should charge accordingly. We all know the story of taking care of your Shrfu, because he is taking care of you. An exchange of energy so to speak...

Question:

Why do some people on kfo not give any info on their profile?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I agree with sing fu in that more shorter classes are better than a few longer ones. How often you train is more important than how long especially in the beginning. Unless you plan on training at home everyday on your own. If that's the case the longer classes would be fine but the expense is greater and you need to motivate yourself to train at home. Both the greater expense and sef-motivation are usually tough for beginners.

$45 a month for 3 1-hour classes per week is a good deal no matter where you live. As long as the Instructor is who he says he is you should be fine. Obviously a higher caliber Instructor will cost more. It depends on what value you place on your training and what's available in your area.

How long has your Sifu been in business? It sounds to me like he's starting out and trying to build a student base.

[Art D]

I think you’re mistaking instruction for training. Longer instruction and more personal training on that instruction is a good way to go. Often though class is the only time students get to practice, in that case shorter classes may be an advantage. I think it is best to practice more and let kung fu grow in you. If you need a class to practice and that’s the only time you train , I would thank you for your support of your teacher , but IMO you do not have the work ethic to go any where w/ your martial arts.As teachers we need to let new students now what it takes and motovate them so they see it for themselves

[Art D]

As for price I think that it is the market that sets the price. You can go to many schools that lets say are not the best that chare just the same and some times more than a good one. If it was based on abilities who could afford Master Chan and those like him

[Frogman]

Training vs. Practice Time
I am a big believer in practicing on your own. I generally can only make two class a week but will make it in to the school during non-class hours and go through my routine. Some of the other students that have started after I did, and have now past me in the curriculum because they make it to every class, but I am still going at my own pace and feel am I’m making good progress. I learned a long time ago that it’s not how many forms you know it’s how well you know them. Having a good teacher is important but if you want to be a true artist you have to put your time in on your own. I feel this is the only way to understand and figure things out for yourself. Learning at your pace and taking time on your own works better for me then rushing through only looking for the next movement. Not being big on New Years Resolutions I general don’t make one, but this year I feel differently and rather then trying to push myself, it may be more beneficial to relax and enjoy my training. So if your have a good teacher and are willing to push yourself the number of class is back seat to the quality of the teachings. But don’t forget to also take time to enjoy what your doing.

RibHit
fm

[netfreak]

wow....i never expected to receive so much input...THANKS A LOT EVERYONE. Now i understand about my profile and thread. So i will try to answer as best as i can. First, my sifu's instructor is in New York. Master Johnny Fung Sang i believe. My sifu's name is Victor Perez. He's teaching here in Puerto Rico. He's been at this (teaching) for quite a while, (i honestly don't know how long, something like ten years). Now, kung fu is not that widely recognized as an effective martial arts here in P.R. (**** THOSE JUJUTSU GUYS!!!!), but I believe in it. As for a good deal, well yeah, it is very interesting. Also, i practice plenty at home. I don't want to sound like i'm bragging because i'm not, but i think i learn pretty quick. It takes me a while (mostly because i'm nervous) but in the end i think i get it down. I hope the information i provided is useful to you guys, i encourage you to look it up. Also i should mention that i work as a security guard, by night, that means i got around eight hours to practice....LOL, i don't do much in my job, by the way mister dachengdao, is that NAN CHUAN you meant, the suthern chinese boxing form? well, thanks for everything everyone, let's keep in touch.:)

[yu shan]

Where are you in Puerto Rico?

Practicing on your own is admirable! Yes it`s not how many forms ya know, but are you taught the two-person to your forms? From these 2-person forms, we pull out 2-person hand drills, 2-person kicking drills, and 2-person exercises... etc. Or are you like some schools that expect there Teachers/student`s to (figure out) what the technics should be? You can put your time in on your own, but does your teacher have the knowledge?

The ability of P.Chan is theatrical.To Afford P. Chan, one needs to only have money. But what is he going to to teach you? Another form, with NO application, NO application, umm no application! Wah Lum is an ok style for flashy forms and nice weapons. My question to Wal Lum folks, where has your Greats gone? Need I give names...

[netfreak]

I live in humacao, but take my lessons in caguas. Now, i should point out that i was only able to take two months of training last year. In the mean time i was reading plenty about the and other martial arts. Now that i have a more balanced job, i'm trying to get a started right away. As for my sifu's knowledge, well, i gave the name of the master that trained him, he's in new york so he shouldn't be too difficult to find. i heard he has a jewlery store. Johnny Fung Sang is his name, ask HIM about my sifu. But i assure you my sifu is the real deal.

[GreyFox81]

at my school it's 85 dollars a month you can come 6 days a week
drills,forms,form sparriing, and free sparring for a hour and a half
6 dys a week and weapons for a hour twice a week is that good

[SaMantis]

yu shan,

why the negativity?


The ability of P.Chan is theatrical.To Afford P. Chan, one needs to only have money. But what is he going to to teach you? Another form, with NO application, NO application, umm no application! Wah Lum is an ok style for flashy forms and nice weapons. My question to Wal Lum folks, where has your Greats gone? Need I give names...

Again I say, believe what you want to believe; practice your own art and make it great; don't diminish yourself and your art by putting down someone else's system. This kind of mouth-boxing is pointless and a waste of energy.

[netfreak]

I agree with samantis. I respect other people's opinion, but each one of us should focus on our own training rather than other's.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

The subject of art vs money has been touched on in other threads. It's a good topic but tends to get very heated with personal issues sometimes spilling out.

It's hard to strike a balance between the two since doing so is bound to stir up negative comments like Master X waters down his art for money and doesn't teach the real deal; or Master Y is a fake because he learned from some guy in a park once a week.

The reality is the only way to provide a good training environment (school) and to devote all your energy to your students is to make enough money to support yourself, your family and pay for the school, equipment etc. The other option is to work a full time job and teach a few hard core students in your garage or small rental space. Why one group constantly sees a problem with the other group is beyond me since students themselves will gravitate towards either one group or the other. That means there's room for both. As a teacher it's your choice whether you want to go with a few serious students and make little money or generalize so you can add the not-so-serious students and have enough money to devote all your time and make available more classes (daytime) for those wanting to learn. Either way the art is passed on to a small group since not everyone that trains is totally committed to the art or to becomming a Sifu (believe it or not).

yu shan
I just have to reply to your comments. Judging by your post, the one in this thread especially, I get the impression that you believe any style that doesn't have the ling side to all their forms is some kind of fake. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there numerous valid Chinese arts that do not have a 2 man version of all their forms? Does your school teach the ling side to every form? When doing the 2 man version are the moves exactly as they are done in the standalone form or are they 2 man exercises utilizing techniques found in the form?

As for the ability of Master Chan it's most likely you weren't around enough while you were in the system to see what he does and doesn't know. When you say his ability is theatrical are you implying he doesn't know the applications?

"To Afford P. Chan, one needs to only have money."
What are the requirements to afford your teacher? Does he teach the general public for a fee or a select few for free?

"My question to Wal Lum folks, where has your Greats gone? Need I give names..."
Yes, you do need to give names. Please give me the names of the Wah Lum greats and if you can, explain how they became so great under the instruction of a purely theatrical Master. Do these greats know the applications? If yes then where did they learn them? If no then what makes them so great?

Lucy, you have some 'splaining to do.

[Frogman]

:eek:

RibHit
fm

[Art D]

yu shan,

I was around M.C far longer than most of you out there. Not all. And I am here to say his abilities and insight into application should not be questioned.this is not to say it is not a forms factory now. Things in W.L have changed over time and it is not what it was in the 70's. M.C/ W.L gave me plenty of practical teaching in my time w/ them; He also introduced me to many great teachers that also provided insight. I’m sorry that your learning experience w/ me and then master Chan was not what you wanted and I'm glade that you now feel that you are a fighter. I can't say I am fully aware of what Pong li teaches but it seems to be meeting your needs,I am happy for you . But remember it is the man that makes the style not the other way. Please stop the” Wah Lum Sucks thing. If you think that no one learned any fighting skills from M.C, we can always mix it up a little and see just how bad it was. show some respect and you will get some in return.

[netfreak]

Well said.

[netfreak]

One thing i was wondering, if students are allowed something like six classes a week, how long does it take to commision an instructor? If it takes three years to get to instructor with a few classes a week, how long would it take if you take something like six? Also, i was thinking about not practicing any weapons until i made instructor. However, my instructor says that practicing weapons, (some), strengthens the wrists, that will be useful for future excercises,but i think that practicing weapons after instructor is somewhat more traditional. Any input guys.

[Skarbromantis]

Do the weapons! They help you lots when learning forms, and yes they are great for the wrists and forearms, also to aquire good footwork, learning weapons have made my footwork 10 times better.

Skard1

[SaMantis]

The time it takes to make instructor depends on the type of system you're in. For example TKD you can sign on the dotted line for a black belt in 3 yrs., after that you're teaching. In my system becoming a full-fledged instructor can take 10 years or more, and then instructors have to retest every 3 years.

It's true in any system that a student who takes 6 classes a week will progress faster than one who takes 3 classes per week. Students who practice on their own also progress faster. So it's possible to become an instructor more quickly than your peers, if you put in the time.

Weapons - depends on the system again, if they only teach them to advanced/instructors, that's their way. But I like 'em. Broadsword is a fun weapon, especially learning to coordinate it with the body's movements for power & control.

[yu shan]

Just stirring things up! The aggressive behavior is handed down from my Shrfu, and his Shrfu Shr ZhengZhong. These two individuals deserve appropriate exchange of energy (money/time) because they insure proper execution of drills, forms, and fighting theory.

If MC`s ability and insight into applications were so great, then why didn`t you teach them? I have no qualms with you, never said WL sucked...it only takes you to the foothills of the mountain.
Seems you have changed your tune from what I remember.

Need not mention names we all know, but why? All stories with the same result. Yes I wonder about the applications! Had lunch with Sean and Tracy, they were asked about applications. Had no clue... talk about time spent Art, more time than you!

The WL greats were only great in the WL aspect.

Back to the thread, pay your Teacher, he or she deserves this transaction.

[Tainan Mantis]

I don't want my shrfu to be misrepresented.
This may happen by mentioning his name in the same post about some problems you saw in WL.

Off the top of my head...

-He has stated that Master Chan has wonderful weapon sets.

-After he had private conversations with Master Chan he has stated that he is an extremely smart person(read...genius).
This includes what he did with his kung fu as well as the WL organization.

-He has watched many of the WL sets and taken a form and basic drill of kicking to teach his students as well as incorporating it into forms of his own including empty hand and weapons.

-He likes 7 Kicks so much he reorganized it into a 2 man set.

I can see why you may have this feeling, Yushan, about how your shrye feels about MC Chan.

For example, John and I said," Shrfu look at this 2 man drill we learned for..."
"OH", replies master Shr,"I have a drill like that but better..."

I can't blame him for that as that is the way people are.
We have a pride in our MA after devoting our life to it.
He isn't going to say that another shrfu is better than him.

Also, Shr Zhengzhong rarely has 6 students in his class while MC chan students are seemingly uncountable.

[yu shan]

From here on would rather pm you on this matter, I will share your last post with Shrye, with you present. Let`s see what he really thinks about mc!

Art, I`m in town this weekend, let`s mix it up! Always up for a challenge...

[18elders]

a bit off the original post but to answer a few posts.
The latest to fall from the WL was someone who spent 10 or so years at the temple. He left because he wanted to know how to apply his kung fu and he wasn't learning it there. If so many people say they have learned it why has another sifu left?
Others have left WL and moved to taiwan to learn mantis, why move if your learning it in WL?
It is not just knowing the ling side to the forms, it is proper execution of the techniques and an understanding of them.
Training for your techniques and how to really execute them.
You will never understand what we are speaking of unless you come to our school and have our shr-fu explain and show you.
The doors are always open for anyone to come in and have tea and discuss mantis and train.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I don't expect MC will be changing the way WL is taught anytime soon so the usual suggestion 'if it's not right for you then try something else' applies. How he runs his school is up to him and it seems to be doing well. Personally, I believe there's room for improvement and I have my own ideas concerning how the material should be taught but I'm not in charge there. However, I am free to teach my own students how I want as long as I follow the curriculum and basic guidelines of the system (no colored belts etc.).

Forms are only a part of your overall training BUT they do hold all the systems techniques in a format that shows you how to use them. IMHO, anyone reaching Sifu level should have no problem developing drills and 2 man sets. I also think we should have more complex drills and 2-man sets. Granted we may not have as many 2-man drills and sets as some of the other schools/styles but everything you need is there. You just have to work it, alone or with your kung fu brothers if necessary.

When unemployed do you look for a job or wait for someone to hand you one? My question is what were all those ex-WL Sifus doing during the time they were there? Personally, I've found that if you want something you have to go after it. Everything I have I worked for, nobody handed me anything. Same goes for training. If these people would have worked what they can together and questioned MC when they didn't understand something I don't think they would have had the problems they complain about.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

yu shan
I'm surprised to hear that Sean and Tracy told you they had no idea about WL applications since Sean was the head instructor for some time and I personally got some application insight from Tracy. Perhaps they expected some 'secret' applications to be taught or maybe they were just brushing you off when the question came up. Anyhow, if we happen to meet again feel free to ask me about some of the moves that may have puzzled you in the past.

[SaMantis]

18elders,

I'm pretty sure I know which sifu you're talking about. Let me say that as soon as this person received his sifu certificate he literally ran out the door and hasn't been back. Last I heard, he wasn't sure whether he wanted to stay and teach the system. I guess he's decided to leave permanently.

My only problem with this is, if he had such a big problem with the "lack" of application -- or anything else -- why did he become a sifu? Why would you spend time and money testing for a certificate to teach a system you think is worthless???

[18elders]

He spent alot of time in his training and the certificate was a sense of accomplishment for it.

[Joe Mantis]

Sorry about getting back to the topic of this thread:D

Not all artists are poor and being and artist does not require a person to be poor. Ie: rap artists, actors etc.

How many people accept payment for the lessons they teach?
Hence you are in business. Whether you are a good or bad business person is up to you.

Why not charge what you are worth?

Isn't the goal of teaching to help the student to learn/understand? In other venues that is the case. A good teacher is judged upon the student's ability to grasp certain knowledge. It is up to the Student to perfect the usage of that knowledge.

Just because I'm slow at doing algebra doesn't mean that I don't know how to do it.

Just one aspect to think about.

[spiralstair]

yu shan...

now let's count the attributes it seems you've developed in your character since you've found the 'ling' side to the mantis forms ...or just the obvious ones revealed in your posts about WL...

you got the aggressive part down well, and the judgemental part, along with the resentful part, and the envious part, totally have internalized the arrogant part, then there's the know-it-all part...

gee, that's some great psych training you've been doing, what's next, politics?

[18elders]

i think wl has the politics down very well. think you have the judgemental part down well yourself since you haven't trained with us to judge anything on.

[Dachengdao]

Hi friends,
I just wanted to say that I have not met anyone in America who is any where near the level of Grandmaster Chan Pui. Any one who has studied with him should feel honored. As for politics, I guess that's found in all systems but the bigger the organization, the more room for these things to happen. I also have to say that everyone I've met from Wah Lum (in person and here on KFO), whether they are still there or left under varying circumstances, has been quite serious and passionate about Mantis. Art D, Yushan, and Hua Lin Laoshi (just to name a small few since they have posted on this thread) have really impressed me not only with their technical knowledge, but also by the way they have extended their hands to me in friendship since I began posting last year. Students are a true reflection of their master, so regardless of people's reasons for leaving or staying, this definately reflects back on Master Chan.
By the way...to Netfreak: Sorry I didn't see your question to me sooner. Zhan Zhuang is a standing qi posture from Dachengquan, and is very good to help internalize your mantis (or any other style of martial arts you're studying). It also corrects energy imbalances and stores up your qi. I wrote a detailed "How to" in my Dachengdao Yahoo group, so feel free to read it and to email me with any questions. If you don't know how to access the yahoo group, you can go to my website www.dcdkungfu.com (http://www.dcdkungfu.com) and there is a link in there. Also, I just put up a Plum Blossom clip of me. It's a little slowed down, but let me know what you think.

[18elders]

link to your site isn't working, tried a few times but no luck

[carly]

the existence of two mantis schools in Orlando is a really great blessing, so that the students can see each and choose the one that is right for them. I hope they all do check out the two schools.

[Dachengdao]

I'll let my webmaster know. I'll post again when the problem has been corrected.

[isol8d]

Originally posted by carly
the existence of two mantis schools in Orlando is a really great blessing, so that the students can see each and choose the one that is right for them. I hope they all do check out the two schools.

I know of Wah Lum in Orlando, and there was a Plum Blossom teacher in Lake Mary, what other school is in Orlando? I thought the Pong Lai school was in Tampa?

[Frogman]

:)
I understand that some of the students of PL are former WLer’s, but why this us against them mentality? I have seen this back and forth business a lot on this forum. Perhaps it just natural compotation but it seems that there is some bad blood that has turned into bickering. My first school was bad and I can get most folks to agree, still I don’t go around talking bad about them every chance. I have also seen a few posters here that say good things about former schools and that they left for various reasons but appreciate what they got. Looking forward we should reflex back… That is who you are and the past can not be changed so it should be appreciated good or bad, live learn grow.
I’m not trying to stop you all from your fun since I find it entertaining, but??? :eek:

RibHit

[carly]

Pong Lai seems to be in Tampa, Florida.
I see nothing wrong with the two schools underlining the differences between them so that prospective students can choose the school which emphasizes the things most appealing to them - the more info the better.

[BeiTangLang]

This thread was a bit off forum topics to begin with & you guys just kept running the wron direction with it.
Sorry, but this thread is done.