OT: Programming - what is the best language to learn?

[Souljah]

I'm about to do a introductory course in java but there is also one in c++.
I was wondering if there were any programmers that could tell me which is the best to start off in and which is in high demand.

Also, is it worth doing a MCSE on windows 2000?

thanks for any help

-greg

[rogue]

Java(JSP, EJB, Servlets, etc), VB, ASP, C, C++ and learn some SQL. Those are the ones that still seem to be in demand.

[Sharky]

Java and C++ if you wanna be hardcore.

[Kaitain(UK)]

java is just a variant of C++ (as far as programming concepts and so on). It is also nowhere near as popular as originally envisioned.

if you're learning to program, then C++ is the only language to learn - it is also way more popular than any other language - and therefore there's a lot more jobs.

Perl/VB/PHP/ASP/JScript are just scripting languages and will not teach you to program - just how to write syntax.

Don't bother with an MCSE in Win2k unless you have industry experience - a paper MCSE with no real world experience is worthless in today's market.

Good luck

[Sharky]

To say Java is just a variant of C++ is stretching it a little.

Indeed it was created by a bunch of C++ programmers - but because of this fact it is very logical (i'm more of a lateral thinker ;)) and with many pre written packages and classes available to the would be programmer.

Java implementaiton is growing everyday and i think now would be a great time to start learning it. It's the language of choice for nearly all Comp Sci degrees/majors.

It's multiplatform capabilities shouldn't be ignored.

IMO

[Kaitain(UK)]

go to jobserve and search for jobs using C++ and jobs using Java

most of what Java can do is already being done faster and better by scripting languages

C++ is a better first language to learn - you can easily move to Jave from it as they share syntaxt etc

Java is great for cross platform stuff - we use it for our software and it makes life a lot easier. I just dont think it's the best language to learn from scratch.

[David Jamieson]

i agree with sharky to a degree regarding the value of Java.

Java runs everything from your clock radio to your vcr. It is the machine language of choice.

However, if you've never programmed in your life, then your best bet is to start with the basics (no pun intended egg heads).

As in Visual basic and the ilk.

Java is great to know if you want to develop for the web or for stand alone run anywhere programs. (Good thing to know is that current OS's such as XP from MS do not include Java and it must be run from it's console)

C++ is the one you want if you want to be a game architect or kiosk program developer or highly complex architecture development. It's the cats pajamas.

Anyway, it's always best to know where your going first before you equip yourself for the trip.

cheers

[Sharky]

I would NOT learn either Java or C++ as a first language.

I did so with java (i had no programming experience apart from scripting languages) and it nearly killed me.

I have to write a program for monday as it goes. I'm pretty stuck.

[Kaitain(UK)]

Im well out of programming serious stuff now :) just scripting stuff customizing our software for games companies - Action Script, JavaScript and WSH :)

you have to take the leap into classes and behaviour at some point Sharky - and it's better than linear programming :)

That would be most important thing - all modern programming is object orientated. Do not learn something like Pascal or C as it will screw your logic up when it comes to OOP

[David Jamieson]

hey Kaitan, actionscript and Javascript are virtually the same. Actionscript (as is found in Flash) is the same .syntax as is used in javascript and the majority of the calls are exactly the same in both form and logic. (Flash actionscript used to be closer to Perl in flavour but they changed it with the latest iterations because .syntax of javascript is more human percievable than Perl ergo easier to learn and use out of the box)

javascript shouldn't be mistaken for Java though. javascript is more closely associated with front end stuff such as dhtml, et al. Java is the guts and what not :)

cheers

[JAZA]

Java and C++ are class oriented program languages. Class orientation is a goal for computer scientists.
You can begin with any complete language as Pascal,C,C++,Java.
Once you learn one, you learn all. There are just sintactical variations.
I recommend you follow a formal career like an engineering bachelor. Know programming is just a part of the IT industry and if you want to go up and be sustantaible, more skills give you more opportunities.

My Mistake: Class oriented want to say object oriented. Tradutore e traditore

[TkdWarrior]

well mostly hav named C++ i'll agree too...
but if u can spend some time n u r beginner i think C++ is just too headache... i would like to start with Python which is bit easier to learn from my point of view
java is one language which implements purely Object orientation
in C++ its a part of it... C++ gives u all the flovors of the month :D
mcse on win 2000?? not good idea if u r into programming
try MCSD(.net) it's much better n u always can give MCP's of technical topics(MCSE)
-TkdWarrior-

[neptunesfall]

BASIC and COBOL

[Sharky]

are we just naming random programming languages here?

[rogue]

"if you're learning to program, then C++ is the only language to learn - it is also way more popular than any other language - and therefore there's a lot more jobs."
I don't know about the UK but here on the East coast most new projects I'm seeing are in Java. In the UK what kind of projects are using C++?

I was a C++ programmer for years and never experienced the nirvana it was supposed to bring. And all it's extra speed over Java and VB are negated as soon as you query a database across a network. I'll also be happy to never have to chase a memory leak down ever again! :p

[Sharky]

Yeah, what he said!

[ewallace]

Stay away from the MCSE courses. It's a big waste of money. Take a quick look at BASIC or C, which you can learn a good deal about for free from the web or cheap books. See whether programming is your thing or not.

And I still laugh at those who think that scripting is not programming (at more advanced levels of course). Mostly Unix guys with HIA syndrome. :)

[Laughing Cow]

Here are my thoughts.

Each programming language has their strong and weak points and thus is better suited for certain types of programs.

Also there are a lot of new languages coming out faster than you can learn the last. So if you want to stay ahead of the game you must be willing to invest, money, time and effort.

Next decide what type of programming you are interested in, this will help with the language choice.
i.e. Web-Application, Host applications, Games, Graphics, Business applications., firmware, robotics, etc.

If you want to become a good programmer and be able to switch between languages easily start with Assembler, this will teach you a lot of things you don't learn in higher level languages.

Most of the new languages like Java and C, C++ are more modular and appear easy to use at first but will require in-depth knowledge for more complex things.

Low level languages won't have the amcros to make certain thins easy to use, but you can a much wider range of stuff with them (in general).

Java is still popular but is being quickly surpassed by the newer PHP for web-based stuff.

Also agree with ewallace that scirpting is programming, as the true programming doesn't happen in a language but on a piece of paper.
The language is simply the common talk that both the programmer and the Computer understand.
And some things can be better expressed in one language than another.

[IronFist]

I've never heard anyone recommend to START with Assembler before.

You can't even take that at my college until you've done a year of other languages (not that htis necessarily makes it right, but my computer science friend got A's in C, C++, and COBOL, but then failed Assembler the first time he took it, so I assume it's pretty tough).

IronFist

[TkdWarrior]

well being in n out from industry :D i knew C++ isn't the hottest thing...i'll agree with rogue they might get preference while doing on embedded systems or system programming but not much...
Java's Market was REAL HOT but not it's pretty much .Net
sharky my comment on Python was based on ease of learning n understanding the flow of programming starting with C n C++ it's kind a tough...
well i'll second the comment from ewallace about scripting language...
some cheap places to get books on C++ n Java is our good old bruce ekeel www.bruceekeel.com wat the hell it's free :)
-TkdWarrior-

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by IronFist
I've never heard anyone recommend to START with Assembler before.

When I started in the Industry Assembler was the FIRST thing taught than we moved onto Cobol, PL/1, Pascal & Fortran.

Yeah, assembler is tough it needs good knowledge and understanding of the basic computing principles, consider that still today most compilers will generate assembler code from the higher level languages.

That's why I say if you can handle assembler the higher level languages are a zinch to do.

How many People today can read a core dump properly and find the problem within the dump alone?

[FatherDog]

What languages to know depends on what you wish to do.

I learned on Java. I didn't find it particularly hard, but I've found a lot of computer stuff easy that other folks didn't, so your mileage may vary. I found C++ to be very easy to pick up after knowing Java, due to the syntax similarities. I found Perl to be very easy to pick up in general. Those are generally the only languages I use.

C++ is very likely what you're going to be called on to use for games development or serious industry work. Java is what you're likely to be called on for cross-platform development or web applications. Perl is a useful catchall language for doing quick and easy scripts and internal programs where efficiency isn't a big issue.

Generally, you should figure out what you're intending on doing. Then you'll be better able to pick your skillset.

[Sharky]

See now i foudn java hard to learn as a first language, and hate perl with a passion, but i can make a mean macaroni cheese

i'm good with words too.

i prefer ASP and moreso PHP to perl (even though PHP basiclally IS perl, but without all the naffing about)

[Souljah]

whoa!

I leave a question overnight and come back to this.....seriously thanks for the input guys! Your variation has given me a wider view of it all.
Though I think, although the majority has been advising me to go with c++ there is a slight catch that i found out this morning, its only on my training days (tuesday+thursday), and I cannot make monday wednesday or fri day evenings because im working. And sundays I volunteer down at the natural history museum. I was hoping some of these courses to be earlier in the day, that way I could have made it to them on most days.
The java course is on saturdays and it will be the only window to learn it,o I think i'll do that, also taking into account what ewallace said about browsing books to see if its my thing or not, though I have been shown basics by my friend in my "clan".

Anyway, again thanks for the input guys!

-greg

[Sharky]

lol, what, your 'quake clan'? pfft. geeks

uh, hang on a minute i do comp sci too :(

i notice the complete lack of java programmers on the board; great just when i need help too.

i think i'm gonna go collapse on my bed for a bit, see you in a bit.

[Kaitain(UK)]

programming vs scripting

there's a huge difference as far as Im concerned - scripting is generally more focussed and faster, programming is broader and takes a lot more time. With scripting you're working with someone else's objects - it's like a lego set, you can do some pretty cool stuff if you take the time, but you're stuck with what came in the box. Programming is creating your own lego set first.

I like scripting and I hate programming - but that's just me. There is a lot of snobbery against scripting amongst programmers - but that's understandable as anyone can script at a basic level and it's proliferated thanks to web development. I work with a team of 60 C++ and Java programmers and they hate us consultants and our fancy scripting solutions :)

If you're thinking of dipping your toe in to see if you like programming I'd say stay away from the big programming languages. Have you done any web development? It's a good start point as it's easy to do the basics (html), with an easy path into the more involved stuff (DHMTL/JScript etc) and finally the cool stuff PHP/ASP and XML if you're really into it. The fact that there are things like Flash to play with can make it a lot of fun. I thought you were asking about a foundation university course or something, not part-time classes.

Rogue - Im mostly involved with entertainment (games and films) now which is all C++ and scripting languages (maxScript and MELScript) - I used to work in the banking sector and that was all VB and C/C++ (7 years ago now so a bit outdated).

I'm just cautious of people proclaiming Java as the language of the future when so much of what it was supposed to do has been covered by PHP and ASP. As Sharky said before - it is great for cross-platform apps, it makes life so easy for us when we have to deliver a client for the latest iteration of Linux/Unix

[TkdWarrior]

i notice the complete lack of java programmers on the board; great just when i need help too.
hey sharky i used to code in java couple of years back it was my first language i luv it very much
but i want to get hang of system programming so i m banging my head against C/C++...
-TkdWarrior-

[SevenStar]

kaitan gave a very good desrciption. That said, I would say start easy - try php or perl, and SQL. Once you've got a handle on it, move to C++. For alot of companies (including mine), it is the language of choice. From there, learn java.

[Souljah]

bah, I have PHP-nuke but no web space to test it on, can anyone tell me the first things that I may need to do in php? I may have done them already but it would clear things up if I could get a list.

lol sharky its not quake, its rogue spear, ghost recon, and very soon will be raven shield too (though I'm not too happy about this move as the demo wasnt too impressive to me).
SBS CLAN SITE (http://www.sbs-clan.co.uk)

hehe (plug plug)

anyway, any help with the php thing would be most appreciated

-greg

[Kaitain(UK)]

www.phpbuilder.com
www.webmonkey.com
www.zend.com

should keep you going - webmonkey has some excellent tutorials

I forked out for webspace with PHP and a MySQL server when I learned this stuff - depends on your cash situation though (I claimed my expenses back)

There's not really a definitive list of things to learn - if it's your first language then I will say this. PHP is the most forgiving language out there - which is great if you're already able to code in a structured manner, but a nightmare to debug - try and keep to the structures they suggest. I'd always recommend learning javascript first to avoid the pitfalls that this entails :)

good luck

[GLW]

Do you want to make a living doing this sutff or just putz around?

If you want to make a living you need to know principles and design as well as languages.

If your resume were to come across my desk I would be looking for the following skils:

Object Oriented Analysis and Design - and I would check to see if you REALLY understood OOAD.

Languages - in no particular order - C++, Java (with Swing), VB, C#. Scripting - no big deal. If you can do the previous 4 languages and understand them, you can script anything.

I would also look for experience with SQL - stored procedures, ODBC, JDBC, and such for using databases from within the programming languages listed before.

Learn to think in objects first. I have several programmers and the best of them NEVER did anything but Object Oriented and he prgrams circles around the rest.

[Sharky]

Once again i am stuck

If anyone is bored and knows about linked-list data structures and their implementation in java (i have the example and have setup up the structure of the program - the nodes and linked-list part of it - i'm having problems actually DOING what the task set wants) and wants to help out please let me know. Gotta finish this for monday and write a short (1500 word, not that short really) report about it and i ain't holdin too many hopes :(

Cheers.

[rogue]

I'm just cautious of people proclaiming Java as the language of the future when so much of what it was supposed to do has been covered by PHP and ASP. Kaitain I'm surprised that you compare Java with PHP and ASP. You're thinking JSP which is part of the Java family but it isn't Java if you know what I mean. I've done ASP and it was the most painful thing I've done, well maybe third most painful thing I've ever done. While far from perfect, Java is the BJJ of the programming world.

Hey anybody up for a programming geek flamewar. We'll show those WC and Southern Forum guys how to flame.:D

[SevenStar]

VB? I guess it would depend on what you're working on - we shy away from VB, but we do BIG jobs, like stuff for most of the world.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by rogue
Kaitain I'm surprised that you compare Java with PHP and ASP. You're thinking JSP which is part of the Java family but it isn't Java if you know what I mean. I've done ASP and it was the most painful thing I've done, well maybe third most painful thing I've ever done. While far from perfect, Java is the BJJ of the programming world.

Hey anybody up for a programming geek flamewar. We'll show those WC and Southern Forum guys how to flame.:D

cascading stylesheets are superior

[ewallace]

PHP is the poor-man's Cold Fusion.

[rogue]

Delphi = Grand Supreme Ultimate Programming Language!!!

Odd languages I've used and made money using.
Turbo Prolog, Modula-2, Forth(we started in forth but switched to C after 2 months), Clipper!!!

I really loved Clipper 5.0.

Best programming book Hardcore Visual Basic 5. It's what a language book should be, funny, informative and points out the warts.

[rogue]

And only weenies do anything that has to do with HTML. The exception are those who do JSP.

[GLW]

VB - can do really functional front ends. As long as you don't need multi-tasking it will do fine.

However, there are tools out there that will allow you to write system services in VB. There are also tools out there that will take a VB written program and convert it to C++ and I am sure there are those same tools coming for C#.

If you have to fill a position and need easy to maintain and easy programming resources to fill...VB is a way to go.

C++ programmers...tend to document poorly, be inflated in their sense of value and do NOT bring all that much more to the table (Talking Visual C++ there).

Good OO programmers in C++ C# and Java are hard to find. Lots of lip service but when the rubber meets the road, a lot of them do the bare minimum of object design and then start slinging code.

When selecting a language to use for a project, the size of the application is not nearly as important as the technical needs of the application. Real-time programs can be quite small...but require highly sophisticated languages and very low level programming as well.

Then you have the politics of the situation. Have IBM as a customer...and you will be strongly encouraged to use Java. Microsoft or any MS partner...and you are using Visual Studio. Sun...well they did do Java....

But the language is a means to an end. Knowing how to design and do the analysis up front...worth a lot more if you can then back it up with solid code behind it.

[SanSoo Student]

Learn Pascal first, its an old school programming language. If you get Pascal then C++ should be a snap.

[ewallace]

I'm considering learning a new language, preferrably an OOP. I just cannot decide between c++, java or C#. I've been writing server-side jscript for the last couple years and feel a little behind the curve. Any thoughts? Book recommendations?

[rogue]

Ewallace, out of the 3 I'd with Java and here's why.
1. Cost - You can get a very good IDE Eclipse for free, you can get the JDK for free, you can get things like Tomcat for free. Developer tools like Ant are free.

2. Ease of use - While C# is more OO (Java has non-object primitives) both Java and C# are easier to use than C++.

3. Maturity - More of the high and low points of Java are documented. Books like Bitter Java, Effective Java and others are full of pitfalls and best practices.

[JAZA]

Kaitain(UK):

Which is the level of income of a consultant on this area in UK?.
Thanks.

[FatherDog]

ewallace: Honestly, I can't give very strong recommendations about programming languages because I program so infrequently anymore; I'm a system administrator, so it's no longer my main focus. As for books, though, I swear by the O'Reilly books for just about anything computer-related. They're reasonably priced and generally your best value for the money.

[IronFist]

How do you pronounce the computer language name C#? Is it "C Sharp?"

How do people feel abou VB? I took a class where we got an introduction to VB... it was all like making front ends for Access stuff. I thought VB was awesome after doing C.

IronFist

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by rogue
And only weenies do anything that has to do with HTML. The exception are those who do JSP.

hey, i take offense to that! besides, everyone knows jsp is for the wussies who are scared to try java.

While we're on the topic, has everyone checked out wired.com lately? their site is completely css now - no tables.

[Sharky]

I thought i was sad.

But no.

You lot have defined new levels of sadness.

[SevenStar]

c'mon - you've got some geek in you too

[Sharky]

Again, i beg for anyones help if they know java. It's reaching critical situations now. I offer money or sexual favours in return. I'll even shave my legs.

[dezhen2001]

i cant help or anything but holy sh|t WHAT AN OFFER!:eek::eek:
u must be really stuck man! :D

dawood

[Souljah]

JAZA said

"Kaitain(UK):

Which is the level of income of a consultant on this area in UK?.
Thanks."

Some of them earn some crazy money.
I work at best international (IT recruitment), theres a couple of guys who earn just over £700 for a days work (I learned from scanning through invioces).
Though on average I see £40-50 per hour workers, and this is doing networking and programming in the main.

[Souljah]

sharky - didnt FatherDog say he knows java?

[rogue]

Again, i beg for anyones help if they know java. It's reaching critical situations now. I offer money or sexual favours in return. I'll even shave my legs. What's your question Shark? And you can let someone else have the favours.

Yo Seven* Without the JSP guys HTLM is just a pretty picture.:D

[Sharky]

it's really long winded rogue :(

the question is set here http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/user/Paul.Rosin/CM0212/coursework.html

i have created the intnode class (which models the nodes) and also a Studentlist class which models the linked lists and has methods to find the heads and tails etc. (we were given help to do this)

I can't make the application class to do all teh funky sorting. i don't know how to do the input code and the end of line transmisison thing, and put the inputs as arrays. once i've done that (ahem) i am no doubt going to be stuck on how to actually get the lists to do what he says (sort by greatest alphabetical letter wtf?) and implement his requests.

any help at all would be apprciated.

i give good head.

[rogue]

I'll take a look.

[Sharky]

much appreciated man

[Kaitain(UK)]

not going to discuss what I earn, but I cost about £1000 a day to the client.... obviously I dont get paid that though (sadly)

I was paid a lot more money as a project manager for the banking sector, but that was before the government screwed the contract market. I went permie but hated it so moved to a different sector that was more fun - computer games production and CGI films are great fun :) less cash but also a lot less stress :)

Generally a consultant gets paid as much as he can justify he's worth - but it's just a job title with a huge variety of roles beneath it so I cant really tell you much. Look at www.jobserve.com and have a look

[GLW]

Linked list - basic ideas:

You have a pointer to the top of the list (1st item) external to the list.

Each item in the list has its own pointer. Then it has its contents. Then it has a pointer to the next itme in the list. If this pointer is a null or some other predefined "End" point, then the item is the last in the list.

To add to a list at the end, you create the new item. Get its individual pointer, set its next item pointer to null. Tehn go to the last item in the list and set the next item pointer to the new item's pointer.

To insert an item, you have to get set the next item pointer on the inserted item to the pointer to the item following your insert. Then you go to the item preceding your new item and set its next itme pointer to the new item's pointer.

Delete is easiest. You simply set the previous item pointing to the itme you wish to delete's next pointer to the deleted item's next pointer....this pulls the deleted item out of the list. Then you destroy all references to the item you wish to delete.

Now, this works fine and dandy in C and C++...pointers and all. In Java, you have to use the construct that replaces a pointer since Java does not have pointers per se. Also, you make the list items objects. Then you have a linked object list. Then you can also put an object around the entire list...and you get loads of inheritance....

Without going into the actual coding which would tkae a bit...that is it in a nutshell.

The linked list is not realy worth much unless it is ordered in some way, however. Now, if you make the list items objects, you can do a lot of slicing and dicing with how they are linked and sorted. This can eat up memor ...but it can give you really fast searches through the list.

[JAZA]

Thanks, we are poor on this place of the world.:(

[Sharky]

As i said i've already created all the linked list part of the program. An IntNode class and an StudentList (which is the linked lists which links the IntNodes together) class have already been created.

Thanks for your post though.

I am creating the application class that gets the text input and puts it into an array of the lists. I'm nearly there but i've been awake too long to be able to do it. I just can't do any more :( Here's what i have so far

import java.io.*;
import java.lang.*;
import java.util.*;

public class StudentID {

public static void main(String args[]) {

StudentList[] listArray = new StudentList[100];


//for (int i = 0; i
//lists[i] = new StudentList();/
//}

BufferedReader in=new BufferedReader(new InputStreamReader(System.in));

for(;;) {
System.out.print("Please enter a student record list> ");

try {
String line = in.readLine();
if (line.equals("quit")) {
break;
}
else {
StringTokenizer tokenBag = new StringTokenizer (line," ");

int p = 0;
while (tokenBag.hasMoreTokens()) {

//which takes the first of the pair.... sets it to idString
//and the second it parses and puts to an int...then ads them to the list

try {
String idString = tokenBag.nextToken();
String name = tokenBag.nextToken();
int id = Integer.parseInt(idString);
listArray[p].insert(name, id);

p++;
}

catch(Exception e)
{
System.out.println("Input error : " + e);
n -= 1;
}

}}}

catch(Exception e)
{
System.out.println("Input error : " + e);
n -= 1;
}
}
}
}



====

Now the exceptions are incorrect i know. Help
:(

Once i've sorted the command prompts and put the inputs into lists, then i have to do the instructions and use the methods created in the StudentList.java file.

Urgh.

[Sharky]

My intnode and studentlist have stopped compiling now. I want to cry. I genuinely want to cry. I hate computers so much.

I'm considering just going to bed at taking the 0%

[fa_jing]

I'm sure this is too little too late - but it's funny because in the real world, when you are gaining experience with a programming language, you just find a piece of code that does something similar to what you want it to do and make modifications. Just knowing how to read the code is all you need. Then if you have a really tough question, you just ask one of the top people where you work for help. Learning it from scratch is much more difficult and I think a bit overduing it - it is similar to the whole academics-not-preparing-you-efficiently-for-the-real-world sh!t.

W/regards to your program, you are doing a decent job, of course I haven't seen the other classes or their methods. Again in the real world, database engines such as for Oracle are usually in place, and I don't see the need to learn too much about linked lists - that's actually the same kind of data structure I worked with on my last assignment which was a legacy app, flat and indexed files with pointers, and it really makes for spaghetti programming and IMO lends itself to record locking issues.

What do you guys think about someone who's been working in support, enhancements etc. and trying to move over to development and the bigger bucks? I haven't got a pay raise in two years as a consultant - and I'm way more effective than many others. Maybe I just need to start looking for something else.

[Laughing Cow]

Agree with fa_jing that a lot of code reusing is being done in the Industry.

Most Software is rather slapped together than designed. ;)

Said that, IME, the programs and software that survive a log time usually start of as a quickfix or a shortcut for a programmer, which gets enhanced untill somebody stumbles upon it and markets it.

Software that is designed normally hardly ever gets finished and released.

[Souljah]

what type of coding is used in computer games design?

[fa_jing]

I think C++, also OpenGL for 3-d programming. That's something I'd like to get into because of my math background, but it seems like all of the video-game jobs have a requirement "must spend an inordinate amount of time playing video games." I'm serious, I sh!t you not. I would have qualified in college, but nowadays I would offend the other game-designers with my lack of a lack of a life. :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by fa_jing


What do you guys think about someone who's been working in support, enhancements etc. and trying to move over to development and the bigger bucks? I haven't got a pay raise in two years as a consultant - and I'm way more effective than many others. Maybe I just need to start looking for something else.

maybe because you're a consultant - they usually make more. when I was a consultant, I was pulling 35 an hour. Now as an FTE, I'm getting 27 an hour, but I have benefits.

[GLW]

Given my choice,

I prefer to place a new programmer into a support situation for a year or so at least.

You learn a whole lot about what NOT to do in programming by having to support some previous jerk's code that is not documented and follows a bad programming style.

Then, I prefer to take that person from support and mentor them into a development role with a lot of emphasis on design, documentation, and coding standards.

For experienced people, if they have had support and maintenance programming experience - it is a plus. If that is all they have done, then they will NOT command the higher salary right away. In fact, they may have to take a step back for the experience. After all, there are skills in design and coming up with new things that you do not get to develop in support programming no matter how long you do it.

But, once you develop those skills, a person with support programming background tends to do better because they have better troubleshooting skills.

If you plan to make the switch, do it earlier than later. The last thing you want to do is get stuck in the backwaters doing support programming on age old legacy software.

On a side note, the common programming style that is proffered for Java is workable due to having decent IDE's. However, doing the braces the way they do it, if you are NOT using a good IDE is a sure fire way to have an unmatched end problem.

It is a readability thing...

They say:

Statement {



}

This is hard to read since you have to look for the end of a statement. Some can span lines and the braces do not line up.

Doing something like

Statement
{


}

works better if you have to look at a hard copy or don't have an IDE that will take you to the end brace.

However, the "Experts" don't see it that way....Of course, most of those "Experts" that write the books KNOW the theory and language...but have never written a complete system and seen it from cradle to grave.

[ewallace]

You learn a whole lot about what NOT to do in programming by having to support some previous jerk's code that is not documented and follows a bad programming style
Ain't that the truth.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by IronFist
How do you pronounce the computer language name C#? Is it "C Sharp?"


No one knows?

IronFist

[Sharky]

yes it's c sharp

[IronFist]

Just like in music :)

Thanks. How is it different from C or C++?

IronFist

[Laughing Cow]

Ironfist check the link below.

Microsoft Blur (http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/techinfo/articles/upgrade/Csharpintro.asp)

Wile it sounds good, I take it with a large truck of salt coming from Microshaft.

[FatherDog]

Microsoft claims it's pronounced "C Sharp".

Several people have (rightly) pointed out that "#" isn't the "sharp" symbol (that's pointed the other way, and is a different ASCII character) and have taken to calling it "C Hash".

That last can also be taken as a comment on the language itself...

[fa_jing]

Actually I'm a consultant, not a contractor - I'm on salary. The pay is pretty good ~ 35 an hour, and there are benefits, but the cost of living is high around here. I'm just comparing myself to my peers at my office, some of whom are ranked higher than me, and should not be. And when I say big money, I'm talking $50 bucks an hour and up. It's funny, during the tech boom I worked on a legacy app with an older programmer, he was literally getting paid twice as much to do half of the work. At the time he made 50 bucks an hour to my 25.

[ewallace]

It's been a while since I looked at Java. I have Bruce Eckel's "Thinking In Java". Is this a good place to start learning the language from the ground up? Any other books that might be better?

[fa_jing]

I have "Teach Yourself Java" and it is straightforward. I'm no expert, though

[Souljah]

I dont think I can learn something like java straight from a book, I need instruction (much like learning ma from a book for me).
Its just that its in too much jargon from the word go, they dont build you up explaining the finer points.....instead just dump you in the deep end. Is this book any different?

[ewallace]

It's actually available free as an E-Book. Here's the link:
http://www.hamsterific.com/MindView/TIJ-3rd-edition2.0.zip

[fa_jing]

yo Vatos Locos forever man! La Onda will take over
:D

[SevenStar]

The "teach yourself" books are prety good. I've got perl, C and HTML and enjoyed them all. "The PERL Blackbook" is good also. If you are looking into flash/actionscript, try "Foundation Actionscript" - it walks you through making an actual site, not just using petty examples you'll never use in the real world, like some books do.

[Souljah]

one q on php, where is the file php4_ts.dll or php4ts.dll?
I've done all/most just past this point, including install apache, but my test file wont work
php4_ts.dll or php4ts.dll, its the file that your supposed to put in your windows directory. Does anyone know if it goes by a different name?
I have php 4.3.0, I've been using the tutorials and I just can find this file, I find similar like php4ts.dsm but none work when in the windows directory.

any help would be most appreciated

[TkdWarrior]

hell i started java with a teacher who didn't knew crap about it, then i hav to shift to my own i got about 3-4 books on java.
bruce eekeel's, patrick naughton's, khalid mughal's n Java Help files(they r the best) forgot the names of books tho but if u ask in shop they'll show u these ones except u can get bruce ekeel's book free...
"teach urself" r o'reilly's books? i remember reilly's books r very good i hav "complete Swing" by Reilly.
-TkdWarrior-

[brothernumber9]

so I wonder what ever became of sharky's project? I hope sharky at least references the jdk tutorial at java.sun.com, I hope it wasn't the first project either cuz I'm sure they don't get much eazier through the rest of the term.

If I had a couple grand and could get back in school I'm sure I'd be in the same predicaments, although when I was taking comp sci classes I had NO free time, not for KFO or even hardly eating. Them projects are crucial. And then the lectures had nothing to do with java directly, was all about pragmatics, language design and analysis. I'll always have nightmares of the "write a grammar that satisfies the following......"
It was like taking two classes hideously disguised as one.

[Souljah]

can anyone answer my q?

[ewallace]

Couldn't tell you. I'm running PHP on IIS, but I installed it ages ago.

[Souljah]

can you remember what method you used?
its just that i've found about 10 completely different ways of doing it through tutorials, but all of them baffle me when it comes to this 1 file. I'll try and download another version of php

[ewallace]

Follow this link:
http://www.php.net/get_download.php?df=php-4.3.0-installer.exe

As long as you have IIS running it should work fine.

[Souljah]

thats what i've got, but i cant install it, i've got apache, configured that (apparently). I think I may have to start again using a different tutorial, i just cant find that file

[Andrew]

In your response to your first question...

The programming language us not important, what is important
to learn when you start out is good coding practises and
good understanding of what is going out.

I learned Ada first. This was an excellent introduction to programming because my course tutors, were able to introduce the basic concepts of programming and able to introduce me to good coding practises.

I then learnt C, and was primarly a C programmer up until my graduation. I personal thing that C is an excellent language to
learn as you will understand the concepts behind sockets, pipes, I/O streams etc.

Java and C++ have abstracted away that raw programming interface. Also to use these languages you really need to understand Object Orientated programming and to tell you the truth most people dont.... It takes a clever person to be able to abstract the basic actions into methods and this something that no begineer really needs to start with. Functional programming to begin with.

As for scripting vs programming. I am primarly a Perl Programmer,
there is no real difference any more. Perl is cool, because its a Post-modern programming language you can do anything you want any way. Java and C++ are modern programming languages you must do this a certain way. Perl is cool cause it can do anything, connect to databases, build websites, run lineprinters, be servers.... anything. Its just that it lets you get away with being Lazy....

ASP, PHP. The scripting languages to me are all very wrong. Because content and scripting do not belong together. It
makes for very difficult code maintence. I've seen loads of ancient CGI's and I know its a bad idea.

At present the U.K market is depressed. I work in the web industry and things king of look like this:

Lots of people asking for Java simply because universities are teaching it and the banking industry uses it for applications.

VB/ASP with SQLserver. People are building websites with SQLserver backends, as a result people are using ASP and VB to build the web interface. In part because no one programs in Visual C++. My guess is that there is gradual move to C# but I dont know why. Any person that wants to lock themselves into MS products needs their head examined.

Mod_perl/PHP with MySQL backends. Again the open source options. The most impressive website I have seen uses OO mod_perl with a mysql backend. In fact the BBC's website uses it and its probably one of the more robust website. In fact, kungfuonline probably uses it and it must be said this site is fairly robust.

Just my 2pence worth.

[Souljah]

right its official


found a C++ course and got a book too (the idiot guides)
Did the first three 'programs' in there today.
I seemed to get to grips with it quite quickly, I hope it continues this smoothly though I know it wont.

Any tips on things to practice for a noob in c++?

[Laughing Cow]

Souljah.

Wait till you hit the "pointers".

;) ;)

[GLW]

Andrew -

as for the learning of good practices and programming approaches...dead on. That is worth a lot in any programmer.

As for Object Oriented approaches only being for advanced folks...not necessarily so.

For those who never learned any design approach or those who can only think top down - procedural, this may be true.

However, the most talented programmer on my staff has never done anything except object oriented programming. His computer science degree program started them out with teaching Object Oriented anaylsis and programming.

From seeing how he approaches things, it is natural and simply a different way of thinking about things. Those who learn this way can truly do some awesome things.

[Andrew]

I agree that OO is the way to go. Specfically because it aids code reuse and modification, which its really where most of coding time goes.

Maybe its just the way I learnt OO. Just about everyone having a different take on
it. Kind of everyone knew what it was, but as for thinking in distinct objects with distinct methods and hierarchies then thats when it got a little murky.

Maybe its due to when I went to university, just as the internet appeared. I was in my 2nd year when netscape 1 appeared. So I was probably in that transition time when mosts software was going to be big c/C++ projects rather than web based. I can remember the secret project called blackbird, which turned out to be Java.... Feel really old as a result.

:-P

Andrew

[GLW]

Actually, Object Oriented programming methods have been around for a good while.

When Jobs and co. from apple went to Bell Labs and 'stole' the idea for the GUI, they saw Object Oriented programming. Jobs is on the record as having said that at the time he was wowed by the GUI...but in retrospect, he should have also been equally wowed by the OO approach.

Unfortunately, there are still not enough college programs that teach OO from the start. I think this probably has more to do with having a large number of old style programmers as professors than those that KNOW the OO approach.

I had a Taijiquan student who was taking a Visual Basic class in college. Now, I USE VB all of the time (and Java, and C++).... The professor teaching that class was supposedly Microsoft Developer Certified as well as being a PHd in Comp.Sci.

My student asked me for help on a program and showed me the professor's code and examples. I then showed the student what I considered acceptable coding style and methods.... He noted how poorly organized the professor's work was. I then told him that if that professor had been a contractor looking for work with me, he would not have even gone past the first 5 minutes of review before being dismissed. And this was one of the people who also taught OO classes....

[Andrew]

I think you're answers right there. Like Kung fu there are good and bad teachers out there.

Andrew

[Souljah]

sorry to keep bringing this back but its the only place for any progamming stuff...


can someone help me with php, I've installed it
(apache+mysql too), but now I put some template php scripts on my test website and it just displays the script. Though when I access it with apache and php on it works.
But this is no good because I want everyone to see it and not have to dl php and the rest just to see it, is there something I should be doing?

any help - I thank you in advance

-greg