Lat Sao - The Ideal Training Method

[[Censored]]

?

My understanding of "Lat Sao" is simply "respond to uncontrolled, unexpected, and/or non-WC attacks". Can someone elaborate on this basic definition?

Is Lat Sao the ideal training method for any Wing Chun class, or is it appropriate only in certain situations?

Should beginners be doing Lat Sao with you? Should the seniors? Should the teacher?

Should beginners be doing Lat Sao with each other?

[yuanfen]

Lat sao is just a word. Broadly it refers to moving towards contact (engaging) from a non contact position. BUT the Kernspecht lat sao
is different from several other lat saos. As I understand it- subject to correction that lat sao is not a big part of Leung Ting's Hong Kong students.

[AndrewS]

Censored,

lat sao from the WT perspective means many things-

Classical lat sao is basically two people standing across from one another, and attacking while stepping in, either in a preset scenario (i.e. one person punches, the other responds with bong dar, tan dar, pak dar; one person attacks with indoor pak or jut dar, then the other uses the defense), or very free- go in and make what you can.

The EWTO's lat sao, created by Kernspecht, and, in EBMAS, seriously modified by Sifu Emin, is a core cycle of drills used to train visual and contact reflexes. The hands make punch to punch with indoor, outdoor, or cross arm contact, attempting to exclude and cut in to hit (Rene's book shows this drill in YKS). 0/100 is maintained with shin to shin contact, and legs pressing. From this basic cycle (continuous hitting playing with tempo, training to intercept rather than block) we build simple attacks- backfists, low punches, hooks, uppercuts, elbows, knees, thai kicks, groin kicks, high kicks, throws, sweeps, takedowns- adding a new set of attacks from outside the system every few months for the first year and a half or two years, increasing intensity and variability. Simple attacks from chi sao are added in as the student learns chi sao.

This form of lat sao is a nice bridge between chi sao and what other lines would call san sao or san sik, and is a drill structure limited only by the imagination.

Lat sao like chi sao is just a drill. People get trapped in it, and wind up thinking it's an end in itself. There is no one ideal way to train Wing Chun, just tools and what you need at the time.

Ideally, I think you should work all your material with your juniors, peers, and seniors. Each interaction can be productive in different ways.

FWIW,

Andrew

[[Censored]]

There is no one ideal way to train Wing Chun, just tools and what you need at the time.

I think we can talk about ideal or not ideal, so long as we don't disregard any relevant context.

The _potential_ problem that some people see with Lat Sao for beginners, is that they never develop a proper baseline of structure, sensitivity and relaxation, due to the excessive pressure initially placed on them.

Or, that they are put in position to apply form movements that they haven't learned yet.

Is there a detailed WT curriculum outline available online? I searched but couldn't find one. Actually, I haven't been able to find any decent curriculum from any lineage online. Surprising, given that WC is a "scientific martial art". LOL.

[yuanfen]

Is there a detailed WT curriculum outline available online? I searched but couldn't find one. Actually, I haven't been able to find any decent curriculum from any lineage online. Surprising, given that WC is a "scientific martial art". LOL.
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censored:

I am generally wary of claims of scientific legitimacy since good human activity has elements of science and art IMO. Ip Man didnt have a written curriculum though he had a sense of order
in his instruction in large part related to the sequence of the forms and their key motions..
Augustine Fong does have a written curriculum and I am surprised
that you havent seen it. He also provides definitions of terms as used in our lineage. See the site at
<www.fongswingchun,com/> Scroll down and click on definitions
then click on curriculum. There is alsoa dictionary of terms at the site.

joy chaudhuri

[rubthebuddha]

joy,

leung ting took a greater involvement in the states, and one thing we've been working on constantly is lat sau, and the "classical" way that andrewS spoke of is very much accurate. while keith kernspecht set up a big series of lat sau work, and emin took this idea and ran with it, leung ting kept it simple.

one thing i have to say -- each of the methods is good. i've done both, and i like how emin refined the ewto method, and i like how leung ting has them set in the "classical" way. both are cool, and both emphasize certain things.

andrewS,

once again, i'm pleased at your ability to just speak of the two sides and do them both justice without doing either a disservice. the wing tsun world is lucky to have you.

[yuanfen]

Thanks for the comments on WT lat sao and its versions. These things have meanings within a lineage's curriculum IMO, just as our lat sao does- which is different from the WT versions.

Yes, Andrew S. is a credit to both WT and Ebmas.

The other thread startup on whether WT is the best since sliced bread is shallow and infantile.

Also, on whether wing chun is a laughing stock- one can laugh at anything one doesnt understand- though our art sure has spread very unevenly and some have not represented the art well in their ventures into media events. Some folks seem to be concerned about reputation. Quite instructive is the example from good southern mantis hakka tong long and jook lum folks--- they are few, they know what they have, dont give a **** about media events- though some argue among each other... and they do test their hands-
out of sight of forums and lists..

Gotta go and do and teach some wing chun. Regards, Joy

[AndrewS]

Rub, Joy,

I'm maladept at handling compliments so all that I can say is thanks for the kind words. As Dhira (KenWingJitsu) and I were discussing the other night- past improving our skills, our main goal is to bring some credit and respect to both EBMAS and Wing Chun as a whole. He's done that a couple of times in a cage already.

Rub-

the classical lat sao approach is great. It addresses closing far better than the modern lat sao. I actually tend to do more of that than the modern version these days.


Censored-

I agree with you about the problems that may come with lat sao, but actually feel they are better cured by more pressure and variability, rather than less. Done right, modern lat sao should be a very darwinian exercise in teaching 0/100 weighting, pressure, and the need for relaxed forward force. Play too nice and you never get the feedback that builds those things.

Detailed WT curriculum online? No such luck. Things get moved around a bit so there are places where I'm not sure at what grade certain material is being taught. When do we do antigrappling- uh. . . . Monday? Do you have specific questions?


FWIW,

Andrew

[rubthebuddha]

joy,

indeed, the thread on who is best is a joke. the best style is the one at hand that can get the most out of us. saying something is the best style means nothing if the closest teacher is 250 miles away.

andrewS,

just shut up and take a compliment, for pete's sake. we really do like you. :)

i like the classical way of doing it, because, as you say, it addresses closing very well. but the modern flavor, particularly emin's, deals with the responses end rather stoutly.

now what's this cage you speak of?

[aelward]

RTB writes:
> just shut up and take a compliment, for pete's sake. we really
> do like you.

LOL, speak for yourself! You obviously haven't met the pscyho MD in person :P

Censored:
I think there was once a somewhat detailed WT curriculum at the Vancouver site. Not sure if it is still there or not.

[John Weiland]

http://www.bawcsa.org/

Select Training from the Left column.

The Wing Chun training path of Ben Der and Ken Chung. The times are very loosely interpreted. Actually, the curriculum is taught faster than stated.

Regards,

[[Censored]]

the classical lat sao approach is great. It addresses closing far better than the modern lat sao.

What's the difference?

Do you have specific questions?

What are the first 3-5 lat sao attacks and responses introduced? What is a student expected to know before starting lat sao?

http://www.fongswingchun.com/level.html
http://www.bawcsa.org/info/training.html

Those are not curriculums, they are merely ordered lists. Who is the intended audience and what are they expected to gain?

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by [Censored]
[http://www.fongswingchun.com/level.html
http://www.bawcsa.org/info/training.html

Those are not curriculums, they are merely ordered lists. Who is the intended audience and what are they expected to gain?
These are curricula.

Curriculum
1. All the courses of study offered by an educational institution.
2. A group of related courses, often in a special field of study: the engineering curriculum.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Latin, course, from currere, to run. See current.]

What else are you looking for? Those in the study know what the lists' components mean.

[yuanfen]

Censored- per John's post those are currciculi and Fong's curriculum lists his concepts in organizing what he teaches.
His intention in putting it up on his site is just sharing. Folks associated with him im instructing naturally have a clearer idea on the meaning of the concepts than other readers. he lists the forms and the relevant order for developing skills at each stage of learning and if memory serves- he gives even tentative timelines for development.

[[Censored]]

When I was in college, each department put out a quarterly bulletin, describing each course in 3-5 sentences. After enrolling in a course, you would receive a 1-2 page outline, describing what you should already know, what you would know 10 weeks later, and how you would go about learning it. I suppose "syllabus" is a more appropriate term than "curriculum".

For example, the BAWC schedule says "Dan Chi - 4 months - First Level". What are the acceptance criteria? What does it mean to know "Dan Chi" at the "First Level"? It that impossible to write down, or is it useless information? If you have to be in the class to understand the document, then why was it published on the website?

I would do it myself, of course, but it's too da*n much trouble. :)

[yuanfen]

Censored- without getting into the details of another hat that I have worn- college syllabi vary widely on length and details.

Fong's curriculum is the most detailed that I have seen.
It does give the check points for what is taught- but the teaching is hands on- more so than Physics 101, Philosophy 101, etc. Nevertheless when its time to learn dan chi sao- the student teacher interactions and the practice clarifies the details.
Many college courses are "cerebral" in varying degrees.
In good kung fu including wc imo body-mind and energy are all affected. A martial art curriculum can point to but not capture that reality
and the transformation.

[John Weiland]

Hi Censored,


Originally posted by [Censored]

For example, the BAWC schedule says "Dan Chi - 4 months - First Level".

No it doesn't say that. There is no reference to levels, no grading, and no outside ranking. We know what you know by touching your hands. When a student learns one skill sufficiently, he or she is introduced to the next on the "list" by the teacher. In the case of Ben Der and Ken Chung, only they decide when a student is ready to learn one of the forms, but students are always free to share knowledge of techniques and principles with their fellows.


What are the acceptance criteria?

Acceptance? I don't know what that means. There are no formal tests outside of working out with other students. Most students are eager to learn new techniques--e.g. once they've learned don chi, they're ready for lap sao. Those are essentially the only drills we teach.


What does it mean to know "Dan Chi" at the "First Level"?

As I said, we don't have rankings, so I cannot give a sensible answer to that question. I haven't checked Fong's curriculum site, so if you're referring to his, then I apologize for any misunderstanding.


It that impossible to write down, or is it useless information?

Neither. It is meaningless information. :D If I were evaluating a student's dan chi, I'd consider them adequate when they have developed sensitivity, elbow energy, a good horse (yee gee kim yeung mar), and stay on center.


If you have to be in the class to understand the document, then why was it published on the website?

I think most Yip Man lineage students and teachers can understand the terms and what is represented by the stated time frames. Basically, it is saying that one can complete the system through the Jong set in a bit more than 36 months. As a student, I look at the document to see where I fit and what's coming up in my learning schedule.


I would do it myself, of course, but it's too da*n much trouble. :)
I know the feeling. :D

Regards,

[AndrewS]

Censored

Traditional lat sao

attack with punch, defend with tan dar or bong dar either stepping in or shifting

attack with outdoor pak defend with bong dar or tan dar or pak dar (something from the fook family)

attack with indoor pak defend with a bong wu permutation

EBMAS lat sao- from punch on punch
1st SG- defend lead and rear straight punch middle and high, low straight kick, low round kick
2nd SG- defend low punches and low punch to backfist
3rd SG- more backfist stuff- some attacks from JKD
4th SG- defend high kicks, spin kicks, kick combinations, boxing combinations, different hooks
5thSG- defend basic elbows and knees (and I bring some footstomp stuff in here)
Grappling defense has wandered around the syllabus. I learned one hold on the neck, one on the body, one on the legs for each SG

EWTO lat sao- from pak/punch
Seen so many variants I've lost count. Same basic idea as above, but has a more WT vs. WT flavor

Later,

Andrew

[aelward]

Here is the Vancouver WT curriculum link:
http://realisticselfdefense.tripod.com/Program.html

The one for our school is at:
http://www.wingchun-sf.com/resource/re-frameset.html
--click on "curriculum" link. This was an original curriculum that was never completed online, and has since been modified.

[[Censored]]

Thanks Andrew.
---

No it doesn't say that. There is no reference to levels, no grading, and no outside ranking.

Open up the page in your browser, and do a search for "First Level". You're in for a surprise. :)

If I were evaluating a student's dan chi, I'd consider them adequate when they have developed sensitivity, elbow energy, a good horse (yee gee kim yeung mar), and stay on center.

IOW, these are the acceptance criteria.

I think most Yip Man lineage students and teachers can understand the terms and what is represented by the stated time frames.

Really? I think most Yip Man lineage students don't know what they are doing, and don't know what they should be doing, and writing a few good words on the subject couldn't hurt.

---
In good kung fu including wc imo body-mind and energy are all affected. A martial art curriculum can point to but not capture that reality and the transformation.

LOL, is that a reason or an excuse? Who were those ivory-tower intellectuals that wrote I Ching, Diamond Sutra, Understanding Reality, etc. etc.? ;)

[yuanfen]

Responses to censored in brackets:

I think most Yip Man lineage students don't know what they are doing, and don't know what they should be doing,

((You can say that again<g>))

and writing a few good words on the subject couldn't hurt.

((I wonder. If some- not all of the discussions on forums and lists are any indication- words often whistle through the trees without
one affecting the other. People who want to learn something have some obligations dont they??))

[fa_jing]

YF - I found A. Fong's curriculum to be very informative. Do you mind elaborating on these leg training actions:


1 Jing Dok Lop ma (front single leg)

2 Wang Dok Lop ma (side single leg)

I take these to be one-legged stances. How do they differ from one another? Thanks.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by [Censored]
Thanks Andrew.
---

No it doesn't say that. There is no reference to levels, no grading, and no outside ranking.

Open up the page in your browser, and do a search for "First Level". You're in for a surprise. :)

HOLY COW! :D My bad. Too many punches in the head in my boxing days, I guess. :D

I've seen that webpage and it's paper counterparts so often, I've stopped "seeing" it. In all honesty, I have never heard anyone in the school refer to "so-and-so" is at "x" level.


If I were evaluating a student's dan chi, I'd consider them adequate when they have developed sensitivity, elbow energy, a good horse (yee gee kim yeung mar), and stay on center.

IOW, these are the acceptance criteria.

I was hoping that would be relevant. We don't have formal evaluations, we just practice Wing Chun chi sao.


I think most Yip Man lineage students and teachers can understand the terms and what is represented by the stated time frames.

Really? I think most Yip Man lineage students don't know what they are doing, and don't know what they should be doing, and writing a few good words on the subject couldn't hurt.

That's harsh regarding Yip's students. :D What words would help?


In good kung fu including wc imo body-mind and energy are all affected. A martial art curriculum can point to but not capture that reality and the transformation.

LOL, is that a reason or an excuse? Who were those ivory-tower intellectuals that wrote I Ching, Diamond Sutra, Understanding Reality, etc. etc.? ;)
The BAWCSA website curriculum was intended to give students a mental framework for the work they are performing. Ben Der must be doing something right. His average student has been with him for more than five years, with 10, 15, 20, and 30 year students still coming regularly to class to learn and hone their skills. In other schools I've seen, by five years, students leave because there's nothing more offered that's worth learning.

[yuanfen]

fajing- they are single leg stances for strentghening the stance,
the kneess, the groin area and the necessary ligaments etc.

For the first you put one leg bent ina front kicking position with the heel facing forward and the toes laid back. When you are near the limit- stretch the leg out and hold it- then lift the
straugthened out leg up as far as you can and hold it. After reaching your limit- hop to the other leg and do the same.

For the second , turn in and send the side kick leg parallele to the ground- bent first- hold- straighten out- hold- lift and hold.
Jumo and repeat on the other side.

Hopw this helps... I am poor on names of motions- not so poor on the motions

[yuanfen]

fajing- they are single leg stances for strentghening the stance,
the kneess, the groin area and the necessary ligaments etc.

For the first you put one leg bent ina front kicking position with the heel facing forward and the toes laid back. When you are near the limit- stretch the leg out and hold it- then lift the
straugthened out leg up as far as you can and hold it. After reaching your limit- hop to the other leg and do the same.

For the second , turn in and send the side kick leg parallele to the ground- bent first- hold- straighten out- hold- lift and hold.
Jumo and repeat on the other side.

Hope this helps... I am poor on names of motions- not so poor on the motions

[fa_jing]

Thanks Joy. It took me a while but I think I get it. You have to bend at the hip alot with the side kick version. I am also reminded of some Yoga asanas, particularly the ones with the toes pointed up and the front leg extended either across you body, or to the side. Also the foot is held. It's a good way to stretch yourself.

[yenhoi]

Whats the website address?

When are those one legged stance/excercise/asana thingies taught?

Tks.

:confused:

[KenWingJitsu]

Lot Sau IS the ideal training method for wing chunners to enable them to take the step from chi-sao to training realistically.

Andrew has described it perfectly and everyone should read his descriptions of it. When done properly, it can become the tool to enable you to 'fight' against oyur partner in a manner that encourages "real" spontanaity and reall attack/defense flows.

Personally, I would have everyone do lot-sao as it is the easiets brigdge to all-out sparring...which as we all now is the key to knowing whether you can use your techniques under real pressure. :D

[yuanfen]

yenhoi- per your question:

See the site at
<www.fongswingchun,com/> Scroll down and click on definitions
then click on curriculum. There is alsoa dictionary of terms at the site.

[yuanfen]

KWJ sez:
Andrew has described it perfectly and everyone should read his descriptions of it.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I did. WT calls that lat sao. Good description in Andrew S's post.There are different uses of the term.
But similar tanda, bong da responses to attacks appear in other parts of training in some lineages....using different labels and ina different section of development .

[fa_jing]

Yenhoi and anyone else, there's a comma in the link above. It should be www.fongswingchun.com

BTW, I read the description of the Lat Sao and it sounds like a great way to practice. Like was siad, somewhere between drilling and free-sparring.

[An jie]

Regarding the list of curriculums, although it makes sense from a western perspective to do so, but realistically it is futile to list what the future holds as this will affect the students goals for studying the art. Like any art, as students, we earn a greater understanding only after hard work.

I never asked my Sifu what I would learn next, since he would determine what to teach when the time was right.

Happy training
:)

[Grendel]

Originally posted by An jie
Regarding the list of curriculums, although it makes sense from a western perspective to do so, but realistically it is futile to list what the future holds as this will affect the students goals for studying the art. Like any art, as students, we earn a greater understanding only after hard work.

While I am tempted to agree with you, I see a value in publishing the curricula of different schools. By comparing each curriculum, one can gain a regard for mutually shared principles.

What would you conclude from a school's curriculum if you could not identify the concepts as Wing Chun or it includes non-Wing Chun elements while claiming part of the Wing Chun heritage?

Conversely, what would your expectation be if your curriculum and another's were similar or identical?

There is a core of good Wing Chun principles that must not be lost to future generations. In publicly identifying these shared principles, we ensure that at least the few will find the truth.


I never asked my Sifu what I would learn next, since he would determine what to teach when the time was right.

That shows proper confidence in your sifu. I have the same high regard for mine. :)

Cheers.

[[Censored]]

I wonder. If some- not all of the discussions on forums and lists are any indication- words often whistle through the trees without one affecting the other. People who want to learn something have some obligations dont they??

If you had a method by which others could learn in 1 year what you learned in 2, what would you do with it? This is not a trick question, so please don't give me a trick answer.

---

In all honesty, I have never heard anyone in the school refer to "so-and-so" is at "x" level.

"What level are you" is not the point. The point is, "exactly when does it make sense to introduce new material, given that the student still hasn't perfected the old material"?

We don't have formal evaluations, we just practice Wing Chun chi sao...Ben Der must be doing something right. His average student has been with him for more than five years, with 10, 15, 20, and 30 year students still coming regularly to class to learn and hone their skills. In other schools I've seen, by five years, students leave because there's nothing more offered that's worth learning.

You've illustrated the problem. You say "chi sao is good for 30 years", Joe says "chi sao is good for 5 years". When you say "chi sao" to somebody outside of your group, do you know how they link that symbol with meaning? You may inadvertently endorse some very bad practices.

---
Regarding the list of curriculums, although it makes sense from a western perspective to do so...

There is nothing "western" about writing down experience.

[kj]

Originally posted by [Censored]
[i]You've illustrated the problem. You say "chi sao is good for 30 years", Joe says "chi sao is good for 5 years". When you say "chi sao" to somebody outside of your group, do you know how they link that symbol with meaning? You may inadvertently endorse some very bad practices.

Just to butt in with one of my unnecessary, unsolicited, and random thoughts ...

Your point here is well taken, IMHO. I would go further and suggest that virtually any information shared about Wing Chun on the internet, with very few exceptions, might also inadvertently endorse some very bad practices.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by [Censored]

If you had a method by which others could learn in 1 year what you learned in 2, what would you do with it? This is not a trick question, so please don't give me a trick answer.

I think Yuanfen was referring to how if one isn't exposed to knowledge in one's own kwoon, it is unlikely one would recognize its value in reading forum posts. As for your question, consider that Yuanfen shares very freely on the net, and I'm told, in person. I like to think that I do the same.


"What level are you" is not the point.

Yep.


The point is, "exactly when does it make sense to introduce new material, given that the student still hasn't perfected the old material"?

I don't know. :D But, drawing from my limited knowledge of pedagogy, I would say that when the student demonstrates he's on the right track, has some understanding, and can explain what's he's doing to the teacher's satisfaction. Perfection, while a worthy ideal, is not possible, and one never knows whence the insight to perfect one's current study might arise.


You've illustrated the problem. You say "chi sao is good for 30 years", Joe says "chi sao is good for 5 years". When you say "chi sao" to somebody outside of your group, do you know how they link that symbol with meaning? You may inadvertently endorse some very bad practices.

Firstly, always do what is right and never do what is wrong. :D

My mention of student retention over time illustrates the depth of Wing Chun study. While one can learn all the gross movements in a short time, it takes many years longer to truly understand Wing Chun's depth and to actualize it in one's own Wing Chun. As for your example of chi sao, it is a complex term. I wouldn't expect someone to understand it without having some time in the art. Is that what you are alluding to? There are some folks whose chi sao is incomprehensibly better than others, and I'm not sure that words alone can ever explain it.


There is nothing "western" about writing down experience.
I agree. I think the student, seeing the curriculum, should be able to make some evaluations of his commitment and by comparing curricula between the student's own school and others be able to assess whether the teacher and school can lead the student on the correct path.