Low bong sao + tan sao?

[IronFist]

I saw a pic of someone doing this on the dummy... a bong sao to the bottom arm and a tan sao to the upper arm. Would these two ever be used in combination in a fight?

I guess I could see a use for high bong sao + tan sao, but low bong sao + tan sao?

IronFist

[chi sau]

north and south punches?
low bong to low punch
alternatively to mid level kicks bong is effective

[TjD]

Originally posted by IronFist
I saw a pic of someone doing this on the dummy... a bong sao to the bottom arm and a tan sao to the upper arm. Would these two ever be used in combination in a fight?

I guess I could see a use for high bong sao + tan sao, but low bong sao + tan sao?

IronFist

theres quite a few uses. passively tan + low bong can be used to redirect a kick, aggressively it can be used to cleave into the centerline, somewhere in the middle it can be used to regain the centerline if you've lost it. if you could do chi sau, you'd see the uses of it are quite numerous once you've practiced the motion.

[kj]

Ironfist,

I don't know what you were watching, but one possibility is that you were watching someone perform a kwan sau movement.

Kwan sau, for me, has a rolling and controlling quality to it, consistent with the bong sau, but utilizing both arms in concert. The other hand/arm is not restricted to tan sau; it could as easily become mun sau or wu sau, for examples. It may even transition to a strike (or something else) before full completion of any uniquely identifiable hand technique, depending on what the dynamics dictate.

However, and mainly as a point of reference since I don't know who you were watching, I have seen many people bang with it quite hard on the dummy, in a hitting or hard blocking manner.

It is also possible that the hands were separated ****her than might otherwise be the case, due to the dimensions of the dummy. Again, this is just conjecture, since I don't know who or what you were watching.

Naturally, if you're trying to describe something else, then just ignore this. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

Low bong sao followed by a regular tan is a very very good
combination motion and the mother of many spontaneous techniques and of great very practical usage.
IronFist without getting good wing chun instruction it will be hard to understand the many uses of that combination. It has to and will come out spontaneously with proper training.

[IronFist]

I know how kwan sao (?) is used to stop a kick, but low bong sao+tan sao has a big hole in it so it doesn't look like it would stop a kick well. Hmmm.

Or do people sometimes train two techniques at the same time just to save time, even though they wouldn't be used at the same time?

IronFist

[kj]

Joy is correct.

Regards,
- kj

[yuanfen]

bong tan sequentially with the same hand or bong with one and tan with the other with near simultaneity- both are very useful wing chun motions. But the proper structures for each need to be understood and developed.

BTW- urge great care about redirecting a powerful kick witha kwan sao. Can be done and I can do and show when I need to.
Needs very good timing and structure. I urge great care and relative beginners should not kwan a powerful shotokan or
Oyama kick- they can break your hands.

[AndrewP]

I find kwan sao more as a recovery move. Comes very natural to me. The picture is the end product. It's the motion that counts. And always put forward motion towards the center.

To me rolling hands (kwan sao) occurs when someone tries to trap my hands or push towards me. Without thinking I shift and use the kwan sao motion with forward pressure (light). The person trying to trap me has a problem then. He can attack high or low and it has been neutralized. If he disengages even one hand I can strike because the springy tension is already there. If he lops me I just kwan and shift the other way. I just adjust to him. I then wait for his next move. Usually it's frustrating for my partner because they have to use tricks, speed, or strength to try to overcome. I feel to adjust and control the centerline and wait for an opening. I don't force a move I just wait. And always adjust.

Yuanfen is right when he says it's a mother motion that can resolve in many different ways. I've seen many myself but prefer what I do.

As for kicks, I don't prefer kwan sao. I either gan low, pak, gum, jum, and/or walk in obliquely to his kick or kick his kick. I've even elbowed and kneed kicks. Elbowing and kneeing kicks creates great pain for the kicker;) I've given and I've received. :rolleyes: I prefer walking in and jamming or diverting his kick with a moving stance. I'll even take a little punishment to get both my hands near my parner's one-legged stance and make him pay.

Besides, once in arm range kicks coming in can't be dealt with by kwan sao. The kicks will be low and very destructive.

AndrewP

[cha kuen]

Yes that is a kwun sau. If both of my arms are out and the opponent tries to do a Jut sau, I can turn into a kwun sau to counter.

That's from my limited experience with wing chun. I hope to come to california some day to study.

--wing chun books --- (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=taichimaster06&sort=3&rows=25&since=-1)

[YungChun]

The position doesn't stay but it initially closes off a large area.

TjD is also correct.

Check this out:

http://www.sunnytang.com/vingtsun/chisao/CS_Trap1.mpg

[IronFist]

Originally posted by YungChun
The position doesn't stay but it initially closes off a large area.

TjD is also correct.

Check this out:

http://www.sunnytang.com/vingtsun/chisao/CS_Trap1.mpg

Forgive my ignorance, but after the guy on the right does the lop sao with his left arm, why does he let go of the other guys arm and allow himself to be struck? Or does the guy on the right break his grip with some other technique?

Or is it wrong to hold someone in lop sao for longer than an instant?

IronFist

[YungChun]

Originally posted by IronFist


Forgive my ignorance, but after the guy on the right does the lop sao with his left arm, why does he let go of the other guys arm and allow himself to be struck? Or does the guy on the right break his grip with some other technique?

Or is it wrong to hold someone in lop sao for longer than an instant?

IronFist

Play it in slo-mo. The guy on the right didn't let go - the guy on the left is clearing the line and right's grip is 'peeled off' and trapped because he didn't let go.

[mun hung]

IMO - not a good example of kwun sau in relation to the one being used on the dummy.

Not a good example of kwun sau - lop sau - gum/pak da from chi sau either.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by mun hung
IMO - not a good example of kwun sau in relation to the one being used on the dummy.

Not a good example of kwun sau - lop sau - gum/pak da from chi sau either.

Sorry it's all I could find in a pinch. Feel free to post something better or explain what the problem is with this example.

[black and blue]

Not a good example of kwun sau - lop sau - gum/pak da from chi sau either.

Why a bad example? Is it technically bad or is it simply that a better response should have been used? If it's the latter, what would have been better?

Thanks

[mun hung]

Yungchun - no insult to you or your choice of video. If I can find something better I will certainly post it. SiFu Duncan Leung's dummy tape shows some excellent application for the kwun sau versus a roundhouse kick.

black and blue - too far apart and no "coverage".

[black and blue]

The Kwan Sau didn't seem too far apart to me, but maybe I misunderstand the concept of it's use.

Also, I thought Duncan Leung's concept of coverage was to cover open space in order to close an attacking line and thus stop it before it starts. As Kwan Sau (in the example given) bridges with both hands/arms, how does this not cover?

If you find an example (pic or mpeg) that would be great... you've confused me a little :)

Thanks

[mun hung]

I'm sorry, let me clarify. I did'nt mean that the kwun sau was too far apart - I meant the practitioners are too far apart.

Just because the hands have bridged does'nt necesarily mean the entire area was covered.

[black and blue]

Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation.

Are you a student of Duncan Leung? Just wondering :) If so, do you know if Leung Sifu's website is going to get it's full pages of mpegs back online. I went there yesterday and only a few can be accessed.

Cheers

Duncan (not Leung, needless to say)

[mun hung]

I am a student of SiFu Allan Lee in NYC. My SiFu trained with and helped run a couple of schools with SiFu Leung for a great number of years. They are very close friends. SiFu Leung visits us a few times a year.

If you have any questions you can e-mail me.

Peace.

[Wingman]

http://www.wingtsun-bg.com/interviews-wt.htm

I'm refering to the picture, not the article.

[mun hung]

Application?

What application do you see, Wingman?

[Wingman]

Originally posted by mun hung
Application?

What application do you see, Wingman?

A picture paints a thousand words. There could be a thousand possibilities how Kernspecht & Leung Ting arrived in such a situation as shown in the picture. Here's my guess:
(NOTE: For the purpose of brevity, KK = Kernspecht and LT = Leung Ting)

LT throws a right punch. KK counters with a left bong sao. LT grabs KK's bong sao with his left hand. This grab has a double purpose. First, it controls KK's bong sao. Second, it allows LT's punch to disengage from KK's bong sao. Once LT's punch is disengaged from KK's bong sao, he can continue with his punch. KK counters LT's punch with a right tan sao.

[wingchunalex]

kwan sau is sort of a cover all block, it covers your high and low gate (upper body, solar plexus to head, and lower trunk solar plexus to groin. and its on center. its like bai jong (ready position) or jam sau and gaun sau done together. it also puts you in a good position to counter even if you do get hit.

it can also be a good way to get out of a double arm grab, or when you get crossed up.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Wingman


LT throws a right punch. KK counters with a left bong sao.

Dude, that's awesome. I got yelled at once on here for asking if you could make your opening block a bong sao. Someone was like "yeah right, that wouldn't work" or something. And I'm like "yeah it would." And they're like "and how would you pull it off?" And I was like "uh, he punches, I bong sao" and they're like "haha that wouldn't work" or something.

And then on the Randy Williams video they block a lot of initial attacks with bong saos.

So I'm guessing it's all good then, right? Blocking a first attack with bong sao isn't violating any WC principles, is it?

IronFist

[YungChun]

Originally posted by IronFist


Dude, that's awesome. I got yelled at once on here for asking if you could make your opening block a bong sao. Someone was like "yeah right, that wouldn't work" or something. And I'm like "yeah it would." And they're like "and how would you pull it off?" And I was like "uh, he punches, I bong sao" and they're like "haha that wouldn't work" or something.

And then on the Randy Williams video they block a lot of initial attacks with bong saos.

So I'm guessing it's all good then, right? Blocking a first attack with bong sao isn't violating any WC principles, is it?

IronFist

Bong can work BUT (it should be paired with Wu) Bong is generally thought of as a movement that happens after contact - such as you Tan as he attacks - the attack is too strong for Tan which starts to collapse and causes it to change to Bong. Bong doesn't stay so you change to something else like Lop Sao.

One of the problems with using a Bong from outside to close a high line is that if he faked, looped or changed into a low hit you could get nailed.

[black and blue]

At our Kwoon we also train meeting attacks with Bong Sau... and it is always paired with Wu Sau. We also work Bong Sau against wide swinging hooks, where we use Bong more as a cover. (Opponent throws big right hook, I use left Bong Sau to cover inside their bridge, and right Wu to cover against their left).

IMO it is easier to strike against a hook with Tan Da, but if you've buggered up and not read the attack properly, shifting forward with Bong can cover against the hook (the punch hits air just behind your shoulder) and Bong Sau then quickly coverts to Fut Sau to the throat as you step into their center.

Hope that makes sense :)

Oh, against straights, I guess we're actually meeting the attack with Man Sau and then converting to Bong, but the movement is so quick, to all intents and purposes it feels like meeting with Bong.

Umm... I'm babbling.

[Rill]

Following the theory of TjD, Joy and kj (at a glance), we have a technique involving kwan sau that I presume is also at least in Sifu Jim Fung's schools. The opposing man throws a round (curving, whatever) kick, you move forward and take the center with a straight kick to the supporting leg, using kwan sau to protect your body and take the incoming kick if it needs to. As was mentioned, it's generally not a good idea to be taking kicks on your arms, so it's more of a 'I am going to kick out your leg and disrupt your kick completely so it never hits, or enough so I can take it on my arms', depending on your timing. If anyone has David Peterson's book 'Look Beyond the Pointing Finger', there are some nice pictures of Wong Shun Leung doing this (kwan sau with kick) on page 64.

In regards to bong, it is not an ideal position, hence you do not seek to enter it. Part of the problem is that it's not an attacking position - you can't strike from it, you have to change to something else first. So ideally, you'd just strike, instead of bong sau -- transition -- strike. Even in lap sau, it's not a case of 'I automatically go into bong sau', you are pushed into it (theoretically because the incoming force is too great and you need to divert it), and the same goes for dan chi sau, etc. I've seen it happen quite a bit in dan chi sau that people will roll themselves into bong sau, and the incoming punch will end up still in their face (part of the problem, anyway) - if you let the other man push you into bong sau, the punch will not be on your center and it will no longer be a threat.

black and blue - I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the bong sau covering the hook on the inside bridge? Are you sure you got all the right's and left's right? :)

[black and blue]

Rill - I was cringing even as I wrote it. I have all the rights and lefts in exactly the right (;) ) place... but I knew I was never going to be able to explain it :(

This use of Bong Sau is NOT the conventional one. I'm using the shape of Bong, but not to deflect... I use it to cover because I've been caught in a bad position from a nasty hook. My hand down to my elbow won't make contact with the opponent's bridge... as a cover I'm inside of their attacking arm...

errr... I can't explain this :( I'm giving up. I'm hoping to get a digital camera in a week or so (Sony DSC-S85 for those who get excited about such things), so I'll try and get some pics up on the Web.

God help me!

:D

[Rill]

black and blue - I have a feeling I may have understood what you're doing, but I think that digital camera might be a good idea so I can be sure :)

[black and blue]

As the wide hook comes from opponent's right hand, step in with left Fut Sau to the throat, but keep the elbow higher than normal as a safeguard against the hook incase it's tighter than anticipated.

(The movment is more like a Bong Sau followed by the chop to the throat, but the above description is perhaps a better way to explain how it looks)

Phew!

Will post up pics when I buy the camera (eyes blacked out to protect the innocent) :)

Cheers,

Duncan

Ps. Just wait until I explain my axe-kick defense against a head-butt (just kidding!!!!!)

[mun hung]

wingman - my apologies for this late reply. I guess the scenario you described is a possible one.

IMHO - as far as the bong sau goes against the sun-punch - if both practitoners are facing each other squarely it will only work if they are at close range. Meaning you are close enough to jam the punch with your bong sau just as he starts initiating it like in a lop-sau drill. If you're too far away you'll end up getting punched in the face or somewhere else while chasing his hands with the bong.

Another option would be to shift your horse 45 degrees and use the bong sau to deflect the punch - which should still be done at a fairly close distance unless your timing is good. Yet another option could be taking one step backwards and turning sideways 90 degrees using the bong sau elbow as a pick. The other hand could be doing anything (tan, wu, jum, lop) depending on the results you desire.

This is all just my opinion of course, but it works for me.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by IronFist


Dude, that's awesome. I got yelled at once on here for asking if you could make your opening block a bong sao. Someone was like "yeah right, that wouldn't work" or something. And I'm like "yeah it would." And they're like "and how would you pull it off?" And I was like "uh, he punches, I bong sao" and they're like "haha that wouldn't work" or something.

And then on the Randy Williams video they block a lot of initial attacks with bong saos.

So I'm guessing it's all good then, right? Blocking a first attack with bong sao isn't violating any WC principles, is it?

IronFist

Hi Ironfist,

I don't think that there is a rule against executing a bong sao as an opening move against a straight punch. IMHO, not using bong sao as an opening move is more of an advise rather than a rule. It all depends on you and the situation whether it will work or not. If the bong sao is the best option for a particular situation, then it will probably work. As what mun hung suggested, your bong sao will work better if you step & turn as you execute the bong sao.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by IronFist
So I'm guessing it's all good then, right? Blocking a first attack with bong sao isn't violating any WC principles, is it?
I've never heard of such a principle. Depending on the situation, Bong sao would be appropriate, IMO. I agree with Wingman here as well, that it seems to be more inappropriate to say never use Bong sao as an opening move. Just as you would not say always use tan sao.

Bong sao is not really a "block" per se, it is a wing hand that quickly transitions once the deflection has been made. Look at the third section of SLT.

As always, your mileage may vary.

Matrix

[anerlich]

While I don't advocate a "response B against attack A" kind of view of WC, I'm not real keen on the kwan sao against a committed round kick. IMO round kicks above the waist are best stopped by stopping the knee, with the backup hand there to stop anything else that might get through (though ideally nothing will). Gum sau the knee with simultaneous tan to cover the shin, or double tan (shin and knee).

Kan Sao (simultaneous tan/garn) is more difficult to pull off than those two, but gives the added advantage of converting to a trap for the kicking leg by sweeping the gan up into the tan, which you can follow immediately with a check or strike to the upper body and footsweep.

Kwan for me doesn't work as well here - bon sao is the weak shape (yeah I can smack the dummy with bon and kwan just like you but I still reckon it's comparatively weak) which you're *trying* to use to stop the kick closer to the fulcrum, so the tan is ****her up the shin and takes much more shock due to the bon's inefficiency. IMO Kan Sao is a lot better as the power shape (tan) is closer to the fulcrum where the limb is and thus stops the kick with less trauma and greater efficiency.

If your timing is really you may be able to fut sao the kick upwards and unbalance the kicker, or step deep inside with just a light larp sao that the kick just slides along it, but these two require a level of timing and precision you can't always rely on.

I don't doubt that Duncan Leung and the other elders mentioned can make Kwan work in this application, but IMO it requires a level of skill and precision to use effectively that the others I mentioned do not, or not to the same degree. I'd rather make use of higher percentage techniques myself.

I've found Kwan works a lot better against straight kicks, and particularly well against the hook or spinning hook kick. Against roundhouses I get sick of that shin smacking my tan forearm hard.

Against lower kicks, as said, you use your legs. If you stretch down to block a low line kick with your arms, you deserve to wear the follow up hook punch or changeup kick to the head that your mistake leaves you open for. Garn saoing an MT leg kick invites a broken forearm.

Ironfist, you ask good questions.

[mun hung]

I have seen many different "kwun/kwan sau" from different lineages and even from the same. So everyone produces different results varying on their positioning, timing and execution.

In the one that we use in our school, it is quite effective against even the heaviest of roundhouse kicks. It's all in the elbows, shoulders and the horse. And most importantly, you must know the application.

If Duncan Leung and the other elders can make the kwun sau work in this application - so can you.

Of course, it is not the only defense for the round kick, but it is definitely an option.

[anerlich]

Mun Hung,

No real arguments.

I guess the kwan against roundhouse is just something that doesn't come natural to me, maybe even - shudder - something that my lineage doesn't manage as well as some others.

Maybe later in my training I'll come back to kwan sao and learn to make the sucker work against anything up to a Scud missile :D . Got a few other things I want to get better at first, and I've got a few other options against a round kick anyway.

later,
AN