Little Idea

[AndrewP]

Happy New Year to all!

Ok, new thread.

Sil Lim Tao has been interpeted to me as little idea, little imagination, etc. What I want to hear from everyone is what is the little idea the first form is imparting.

Some ideas: stance, centerline, wrists on centerline, basic techniques. Those are my favorites. What's yours? If they are different and crazy sounding I want to hear from you too so we can discuss it.

Thanx.

AndrewP

[t_niehoff]

Andrew P wrote:

Sil Lim Tao has been interpeted to me as little idea, little imagination, etc. What I want to hear from everyone is what is the little idea the first form is imparting. AP

IMHO, Siu=small, efficient, compact; Nim=idea, concept, notion;
Tao=head. Ergo, SNT=put in your head the idea/notion/concept of small/efficient/compact. The gung lik (power training) of the SNT is a perfect expression of concept of "siu". TN

Terence

[AndrewP]

Terrence,

Just came through St. Louis coming back from Branson.

AndrewP

[t_niehoff]

AndrewP wrote:

Just came through St. Louis coming back from Branson.

Let me know (email or phone - I'm in the book) next time you're in my area, should you want to get together with me or our little group -- I always look forward to meeting WCK folks. :) TN

Terence

[S.Teebas]

To me it’s about building everything into one simple idea…well feeling really. (wing chun is a feeling art) Example: relaxing the body and linking the body. At first it’s a point to think I must relax.. Ok now im relaxed I will link my body. Now im linked, is my structure aligned?
Once you can do, for example, the above three on their own then try to encompass it all into one thought or feeling. It’s one thing, and you body will tell you when something isn’t right if you listen well, this takes alot of concentration. Then build another thing into that feeling. And keep building on it, so you get better at WC but your left at the end with one thing instead of trying to remember a million points. Sound crazy enough?

[Atleastimnotyou]

sink the shoulders to your waist, your waist to your knees, and your knees to your feet. (i don't think it is literal though, lol)

[quiet man]

Originally posted by AndrewP
Happy New Year to all!

Ok, new thread.

Sil Lim Tao has been interpeted to me as little idea, little imagination, etc. What I want to hear from everyone is what is the little idea the first form is imparting.

Some ideas: stance, centerline, wrists on centerline, basic techniques. Those are my favorites. What's yours? If they are different and crazy sounding I want to hear from you too so we can discuss it.

Thanx.

AndrewP

According to my sifu, SLT means "young idea" or "first idea", rather than "little idea". And he learned this in HK, so I've no reason not to believe him :)

I think SLT teaches fundamental WC concepts: basic techniques, centerline, positioning the elbow, proper structure/stability... but most importantly, SLT is an introduction to WCKF and serves as a foundation for further training - without SLT, CK and BJ can't be learned. WCK kuit says "Siu Lim Tau comes first".

[kj]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
IMHO, Siu=small, efficient, compact; Nim=idea, concept, notion;
Tao=head. Ergo, SNT=put in your head the idea/notion/concept of small/efficient/compact. The gung lik (power training) of the SNT is a perfect expression of concept of "siu". TN


Excellent. This is the simple, yet profound essence of it, IMHO.

S. Teebas, if you're crazy, then so am I. :) You point out another integral facet, which, IMHO, encompasses the various and important technical details others have described here.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Wingman]

SLT imparts many ideas like basic techniques, centerline, structure, etc. Every movement in SLT form has an idea behind it. Below is an excerpt of my post in another thread, "Elbows in". It discusses the idea behind the cross hands movement in the opening of SLT.

"What is the idea behind the cross hands? There are actually 3, and they are:

1. vertical centerline -- the cross hands define your vertical centerline. It divides the body into 2 gates - left and right gate.

2. the centerline which is the shortest distance to your opponent. The upper cross hands form a triangle, with your body/chest as the base and the intersection of the wrists as the apex. The apex points directly to your opponent's centerline. The straight line from your center to the apex is the shortest distance to your opponent.

3. occupying the centerline. The triangle formed by the cross hands define the area that you must occupy in order to control the centerline.

The SLT (Little Idea Form) is composed of WC techniques and ideas. The techniques are the tools used to convey the idea. Just like an iceberg, the techniques are what we see above the surface. It only comprises 1/8th of SLT. The other 7/8ths are the ideas for us to fathom."

[t_niehoff]

"Wingman" wrote:

"What is the idea behind the cross hands? There are actually 3, and they are:

1. vertical centerline -- the cross hands define your vertical centerline. It divides the body into 2 gates - left and right gate.

2. the centerline which is the shortest distance to your opponent. The upper cross hands form a triangle, with your body/chest as the base and the intersection of the wrists as the apex. The apex points directly to your opponent's centerline. The straight line from your center to the apex is the shortest distance to your opponent.

3. occupying the centerline. The triangle formed by the cross hands define the area that you must occupy in order to control the centerline.
----------------------

FWIW, IMHO the sup jee sao expresses more yau dim (important points) than those three you've outlined. Moreover, I don't completely agree with your centerline/central line (jung sien) observations -- for example, w/r/t #2 above, the jung sien has a much broader expression than you've outlined (what you've described is the mutual line - the "line" between our centers); w/r/t #3 above, one can control the jung sien without occupying it. TN

Terence

[Wingman]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
[snip]...FWIW, IMHO the sup jee sao expresses more yau dim (important points) than those three you've outlined. Moreover, I don't completely agree with your centerline/central line (jung sien) observations -- for example, w/r/t #2 above, the jung sien has a much broader expression than you've outlined (what you've described is the mutual line - the "line" between our centers); w/r/t #3 above, one can control the jung sien without occupying it. TN

Terence

I agree. The cross hands motion has other important points/ideas than the 3 I've mentioned. As I've said in my previous post, "Just like an iceberg, the techniques are what we see above the surface. It only comprises 1/8th of SLT. The other 7/8ths are the ideas for us to fathom."

FYI, I've barely scratched the surface (of the "iceberg").:) Would you care to share with us the other important points of the cross hands motion of SLT?

How can you effectively control the centerline if you don't occupy it? Please elaborate your answer.

[canglong]

AndrewP asked about Sil Lim Tao and then Terence defined Siu Nim Tao. Because of the tonal nature of the chinese language this may not seem like much but to our school this is relevant because we train the little idea in the beginning with the Siu Nim Tao form and we do lots of little drills to train Sil Lim Tao. So we not only acknowledge the difference but train the two different concepts.

[t_niehoff]

canglong wrote:

AndrewP asked about Sil Lim Tao and then Terence defined Siu Nim Tao. Because of the tonal nature of the chinese language this may not seem like much but to our school this is relevant because we train the little idea in the beginning with the Siu Nim Tao form and we do lots of little drills to train Sil Lim Tao. So we not only acknowledge the difference but train the two different concepts.

IMHO you're missing the point. It's not a matter of doing "lots of little drills", but understanding the fundamental significance of the concept of "siu" w/r/t our method and expressing it in *everything* we do. So there is no difference between SLT and SNT. Siu Lien Tao tells us to "first train the concept of siu"; Yip Man merely changed the name of the first form to Siu Nim Tao to underscore the conceptual nature (telling us to "put in our head the concept of siu") -- both refer to the same thing. TN

---------------------------

Wingman wrote:

FYI, I've barely scratched the surface (of the "iceberg"). W

Then we agree. TN

Would you care to share with us the other important points of the cross hands motion of SLT? W

No. TN

How can you effectively control the centerline if you don't occupy it? Please elaborate your answer. W

Perhaps you should *think* about it and investigate it yourself. One hint: if you control the opponent, you control the jung sien (he can even occupy the mutual line but you control it if you control him). TN

Terence

[yuanfen]

One hint: if you control the opponent, you control the jung sien (he can even occupy the mutual line but you control it if you control him). TN

good hint.joy c

[Wingman]

Thanks for the hint.:)

[Wingman]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
[snip]...Then we agree. TN

Would you care to share with us the other important points of the cross hands motion of SLT? W

No. TN

How can you effectively control the centerline if you don't occupy it? Please elaborate your answer. W

Perhaps you should *think* about it and investigate it yourself. One hint: if you control the opponent, you control the jung sien (he can even occupy the mutual line but you control it if you control him). TN

Terence

I agree that there are other important points of the cross hands motion of SLT. But since you refuse to share with us what these other points are, then there's no point in discussing it further.

Since you don't completely agree with my centerline/central line observations, then we have a point of disagreement. Maybe if you can share with us what part you did not agree, then we can discuss it further. In any case, let's agree to disagree.:D

Thanks again for the hint. I cannot say if I agree or disagree with it since I have yet to explore it.

[canglong]

Siu Nim Tao pertains to concepts and Siu Lim Tao pertains to applications my understanding of both terms to that end is they are seperate and distinctly different (in our school). Our teaching guides you in the manner that with SNT you get a little idea in the beginning (concept) and then follow that idea up with SLT or a little drilling (application) to reinforce the concepts yet still the terms carry seperate meaning unto themselves. The differnce we are taught is also relevant when training a person already proficient in MA it is possible a person could be taught with the use of a concept and no drilling would be necessary others might need only a demonstration of the application and still others would need the benefit of both the concept and the application. Yes, it is true though they are the same in that in this particular case you would be training your WCK regardless of which one you refer to.

What was the name of the first form before Ip Man changed it? (just curious)

[t_niehoff]

canglong wrote:

Siu Nim Tao pertains to concepts and Siu Lim Tao pertains to applications my understanding of both terms to that end is they are seperate and distinctly different (in our school).

Why have one form for the "concepts" and one for the "application" (which, btw, in itself violates the concept of "siu"!) when the concept itself is expressed via an application? The YJKYM is a concept and an example, technique (horse), that expresses the concept -- it embodies "siu". I'm not interested in schools; I'm interested in WCK. TN

Our teaching guides you in the manner that with SNT you get a little idea in the beginning (concept) and then follow that idea up with SLT or a little drilling (application) to reinforce the concepts yet still the terms carry seperate meaning unto themselves. C

Not only do our forms *contain* concepts, but these concepts are collected/arranged thematically; IOWs, the forms are all about "something." In the SNT, the overlying theme is the concept of "siu" -- it is, in a sense, what the other concepts of the SNT express in various ways. IMO it is not a correct, though it is widespread, to think of SNT as giving one "a little idea" -- morons and half-wits have "little ideas"; it is rather trying to tell us that there is a fundamental concept, "siu", that is essential to grasp if we expect to truly develop WCK's fighting method. TN

The differnce we are taught is also relevant when training a person already proficient in MA it is possible a person could be taught with the use of a concept and no drilling would be necessary others might need only a demonstration of the application and still others would need the benefit of both the concept and the application. Yes, it is true though they are the same in that in this particular case you would be training your WCK regardless of which one you refer to. C

I don't agree with this for too many reasons to enumerate (I suppose if we think of all MA approaches as basically generic we might think of the training as interchangeable, so that our training in one MA transfers to another if I "grasp" it intellectually. But IME WCK training is different in kind and approach than almost everything I've seen -- except for folks that do kickboxing with WCK tools -- so someone having skill in another MA would IMO be at a disadvantage in learning WCK as our approach and training would be at odds with what they've trained their body to do.) Our method isn't just a collection of concepts but is an approach toward fighting and a means to train that approach. Thus the concepts in WCK do not exist separately but together and intertwined, like the many, many wheels of a swiss watch. Part of understanding "the concepts" is understanding how the interact, link, work together, etc. So there is no understanding "tan" without its relation to everything else. TN

What was the name of the first form before Ip Man changed it? (just curious)

Siu Lien Tao. TN

Terence

[Mr. Bao]

Siu Lum Tao means little concept, head, idea, thought, mind, etc. Basically, siu lum tao is a way for people to learn the basic theories of wing chun gung fu from structure, power, speed, ma bu, corrective static wing chun posture, breathing, development of gong lik, etc. But to put it simply siu lum dao is really to think of doing less to gain alot and to introduce the basic elements to form tons of basic wing chun techniques. The elements of the forms are not preestablished techniques, but letters in which words (tecnhiques) can be developed.

[Wingman]

How can you effectively control the centerline if you don't occupy it? Please elaborate your answer. W

Perhaps you should *think* about it and investigate it yourself. One hint: if you control the opponent, you control the jung sien (he can even occupy the mutual line but you control it if you control him). TN

Terence


Hi t_niehoff/Terence,

I've been thinking about your hint; and I have to disagree with you. I think you are confusing the end with the means. Controlling your opponent is the goal (end). One way (means) of achieving this goal is to control the centerline by occupying it. (Note: all reference to the term "centerline" is equivalent to your term "mutual line"; unless stated otherwise)

The logic behind occupying the centerline is, "no two bodies of matter can occupy the same space at the same time". For example: I throw a centerline punch towards my opponent's center; and he counters with a tan sao. If his tan sao does not occupy the centerline, then he has to move his center to avoid getting hit. I am controlling my opponent by forcing him to do something he'd rather not do.

[reneritchie]

AndrewP asked about Sil Lim Tao and then Terence defined Siu Nim Tao. Because of the tonal nature of the chinese language this may not seem like much but to our school this is relevant because we train the little idea in the beginning with the Siu Nim Tao form and we do lots of little drills to train Sil Lim Tao. So we not only acknowledge the difference but train the two different concepts.

Just a quick point on language. Siu Nim Tao and Siu Lim Tao both refer to the same characters (Xiao Nian Tou). There's just a minor dialect divergence that occurs among some Hong Kong Chinese which has them replace initial 'n' with initial 'l' (and ommit initial 'ng' as well). The alternate character rendering of the name is closer to Siu Lien Tao or Siu Lin Tao (Xiao Lian Tou)

Other than that t_niehoff is mostly correct. (I include the 'mostly' so he doesn't get lazy ;) )

(And FWIW - If you're not shown how each and every movement (even the most minor) in each and every form is *directly* illustrative of a concept, *directly* applicable in fighting, and *directly* useful in attribute development, and how to draw out the implications as well, you should make sure to get to it, step by step).

RR

[black and blue]

Hello RR,

On your site you give a descriptive (motion-by-motion) account for the Yip Man lineage sets SNT and CK. Did you ever do the same for your lineage of Wing Chun?

I'd love to have a look and compare.

By the bye, for those who haven't seen it, this site (www.realwingchun.co.uk) give a description of the first two sets with an indication of where energy should be issued.

Does anyone know of any other sites that offer an indepth look at the forms? Next month my Sifu is giving a SNT seminar - to quote R5A, "I'm excited".

Thanks,

Duncan

[reneritchie]

B&B - It should be comparable with the YKS book.

BTW- I'm all in favor of lists, but everyone need be taken with a grain of salt, especially those advising power (and manipulations of the wrist while punching - ouch!) as they can cause injury to oneself if not shown in detail.

RR

[t_niehoff]

Wingman wrote:

I've been thinking about your hint; and I have to disagree with you. I think you are confusing the end with the means. Controlling your opponent is the goal (end). One way (means) of achieving this goal is to control the centerline by occupying it. (Note: all reference to the term "centerline" is equivalent to your term "mutual line"; unless stated otherwise). W

From my perspective, the jung sien is a concept and not a simple descriptive term, i.e., it doesn't have one single definition - as you seem to imply - but can be different things (mutual line, line of gravity, line of force, etc.) depending on the situation. I agree with you that controlling the opponent is the goal. IME we control the opponent by controlling his jung sien. "Occupying the centerline" - or mutual line - is not the same thing as controlling the jung sien. Just my opinion. TN

The logic behind occupying the centerline is, "no two bodies of matter can occupy the same space at the same time". W

There is much more to it than that IMO. TN

Terence