Shuai Chiao How Old?

[wiz cool c]

Is Shuai Chiao really 3000 years old? I dont know why but I keep thinking it was taken from Judo and its history was made up like Tae Kwoon Do's made up 2000 year old history. I sure I am wrong but is there historical facts that prove its history. Also the tops they wear looks very similar to a judo top and it seems that they wear japanese style belts. Any info would be appreciated.

[carly]

Shuai Chiao is genuinely ancient, and wrestling is the universal martial art around the world. Mongolian wrestling and Shuai Chio predate not just all Japanese martial arts, but all Japanese culture in general, and they are very effective (fun too).
It's a superb martial art.
Of course, not everyone who teaches it is an expert, but there are lots of good teachers - check out the various US Shuai Chiao organizations, they should be able to help you find a good sifu near you.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by wiz cool c
Is Shuai Chiao really 3000 years old? I dont know why but I keep thinking it was taken from Judo

1. there are similarities
2. you probably knew about judo long before you had ever heard of shuai chiao. Just like some people think the oldest martial arts system is shaolin, and all arts come from it - not true, but it probably makes sense to them because they have never heard of the systems that predate it, like shuai chiao.

and its history was made up like Tae Kwoon Do's made up 2000 year old history. I sure I am wrong but is there historical facts that prove its history. Also the tops they wear looks very similar to a judo top and it seems that they wear japanese style belts. Any info would be appreciated.

None of the TKD guys I know have ever told me that. They all say that it came about in the 60's, after a difference in thinking between the various camps. Now, I have heard about the Hwa Wrang warriors, which were around 2,000 years ago. They trained with various weapons, and also trained a style called soo bahk that was primarily kicking. These warriors were fierce - I guess the equivalent of samurai. From there, a style developed called tae kyon. After the Japanese inhabitiation of Korea (maybe before, but I know after for sure) there were 5 main martial arts schools, and each had various styles. The 5 were Moo duk Kwan, Ji do Kwan, Chung do Kwan, Song mu Kwan, and Chang mu Kwan. soo bahk, tae kyon tang soo do, etc fell somewhere into these schools.

TKD was the result of an attempt to unify all of the schools. Not everybody agreed with that, like I stated before. So, I guess if you wanted to get technical, TKD does have roots 2,000 years ago. It's not TKD that's that old, but it's predecessors.

[Stranger]

Yes, shuai chiao is that old, however, the spelling of the name, rules of competition, and arsenal of techniques have changed to the extent that basically we are dealing with a different art.

[GGL]

Shuai Chiao is said to be over 5000 years old, with the empirical evidence validating at least 3000 years. It has been known by several different names with the name Shuai Chiao or Swai Jiao being agreed on by the 1928 National Koushu Committee in Nanking. There are four regions that are noted for the Shuai Chiao players they produce: Beijing, Tein Tsien, Mongolia, and Pao Ting. Along with them are many other lesser known groups and regions as well. Shuai Chiao is known as Chinese Wrestling, however this is much different from what we in the west view wrestling as.

[Liokault]

Are we saying that Shuai Chiao is 3-5000 years old or are we saying that guys in china were grappeling 3-5000 years ago.


Just because guys were grappeling does that make it Shuai Chiao?

[neptunesfall]

the earliest documented incarnation of shuai chiao was chiao ti.
as shuai chiao became more systemized and refined, the name made a few changes as well.
the belt rankings came about from ch'ang, tung sheng or from the nanking kuoshu commitee, i can't recall.
shuai chiao finds its' roots in boke (mongolian) wrestling, alongside sambo.

just because guys were grappling does not make it shuai chiao. because they were using techniques and principles, albeit a barebones and rougher version of what we know today, does make it shuai chiao....chiao ti to be technically correct.

[Royal Dragon]

I thought Shui Chiao and Chiao Ti were the same thing, only one was done with a helmet with horns on it.

The most reacent schools of it are just that, the most reacent schools, but the art of throwing and grappeling has been around since the beginning of man.

Shui Chiao as a specific style, is quite old, and I dare say that it may very well be accurate that it does indeed date back 4-6 thousand years in one form or another.

According to "the Spring and Autum of Chinese martial arts" both wrestling, and a sport known as "Horn Locking" were well developed as far back as the late Bronz age (2100 BC.or 4100 years ago) My guess is if they could make Bronz weapons, they could throw.

Since Jujitsu apparently came from the Chinese Shui Chiao tradition, you must also concede that Jujitsu is also that old, abit a more modern branch of art.

[David Jamieson]

wu ti is the wrestling form that was around in ancient times.

many cultures explored forms of wrestling as an art and sport since time immemorial.

they didn't necessarily have the same root or beginnings.

anyway, wrestling has been around for a long long time and one art doesn't owe it's origins to another.

cheers

[Stranger]

The original manifestation of the sport involved two players wearing a helmet with horns on it. The combatants established a grip on the horns and then tried to throw each other.
Does that sound very similar to our modern shuai-chiao?

***************************
to the next topic:
I see the old jujutsu equals shuai-chiao argument has been dusted off as well. I'll counter as always with the question, on what concrete physical evidence are we basing this theory? Or is this another "aikido equals bagua" statement that KFO posters believe because it is said to be so regardless of the absence of any historical link?

[Royal Dragon]

Hm, I seem to remeber seeing the name of the Chinese master who taught a japanese student tha art dating back to about 4-500 years ago, but I can't for the life of me recall where, which sux for my argument. It could very well just be a folk tale though.

I supose if jujitsu did not come from Shui Chiao, then that is just as well too.

As for the term Shui Chiao, I never really saw it as a specific style, but a term refering to the throwing and grappeling aspects of Kung Fu in general. Those that specialise in that section are generally known a Shui Chiao players much the same way we refer to anyone who wresltes as a "Wreslter", reguardles of whether they folk wreslte, Olympic wrestle, or even Professional wrestle.

From there, the various branches and schools are broken down, just like tae kwon do is broken down into is schools and branches (Moo Duk Kwan, Chang moo Kwan etc.)

[David Jamieson]

hey royal, I think if I remeber correctly that Sumo attributes it's origins to Wu Ti being brought from the mainland.

Shaui Chiao is mongolian in origin and there is still a very alive practice of wrestling in mongolia today. Not sure if they call it shuai Chiao tho, but i have seen a few examples o it (on film) being performed in mongolia when the peoples come together to trade horses and marry of the kin and what not.

They do a dance of garuda ( a winged god of hindu mythology) whenever they win a match and the object is to grapple and uproot your opponent. Often times to slam them into the ground :D, the slamming into the ground part is the shuai Chiao flavour. toss and slam, wicked stuff.

cheers

[carly]

I've wrestled with Mongolians, and they were too good for me.
They begin playing their wrestling when very young, almost as soon as they can walk in many cases.
They not only take you to the ground, they do it very fast, with a spin, and land on top of you, adding their body weight to the impact of your own body hitting the ground.
If they want to be cruel, they can try and separate a joint this way by holding you in the right way as you fall.
They are also superb at allowing you to throw them, spinning as you throw them, and then taking it an extra rotation so that the thrower becomes the thrown, that is to say, so that the thrower is the one who ends up at the bottom hitting the ground first.
Alhough it can be very rough, and is often practiced for fun by friends after a few (very strong) drinks, making it a bit crazy, it is also very social, and they don't mind challenges or sparring. It's their idea of a good time.
They're good people, and great martial artists.