Shoulder Pain!

[Ras-Tanu]

My shoulder is killing me from doing lop sau cycle thing and from chi sau. I am in so much pain. Are shoulder probs common in wing chun? I try to use proper form for bong sau, but partners sometimes are too heavy. I am waiting a few days before seeing a doc; anyone got any tips to help ease the pain?:(

[azwingchun]

In my opinion it sound as if you answered your own question. You stated that your partners are too heavy. You are not supposed to carry their weight, this will cause you to build tension in your own arm which will tire the arm and in the long run over work the muscles in the arm. Hope this helps.;) But for now, just don't work it as much. Give you arm time to relax. Or maybe just cut the chi sau down until it feels better, if it is that bad right now.

[kj]

Originally posted by Ras-Tanu
My shoulder is killing me from doing lop sau cycle thing and from chi sau. I am in so much pain. Are shoulder probs common in wing chun? I try to use proper form for bong sau, but partners sometimes are too heavy. I am waiting a few days before seeing a doc; anyone got any tips to help ease the pain?:(

Shoulders and knees are especially prone to injury, as compared to other joints. The shoulder is a precarious joint with mobility and latitude in so many directions. Some of us are built in a fashion that makes us especially prone to injuries in this area. I am one of them. A simple "be a guy," tough-it-out attitude is nonsense, IMHO when it comes to health and well-being. Not only that, but it's a real drag when you can't train because of injuries. It takes one to know one. :(

In the poon sau rolling type of chi sau, pushing down on another person's bong sau is incorrect, and helps neither partner to develop proper skills. If our aim was merely to muscle someone, we would have no need for Wing Chun.

You should never be "lifting," resisting upwards, or bearing your partners weight with your arm in the bong sau position. Any sports therapist or orthopedist can confirm that it is asking for trouble. It is a common mistake I have seen too often. And yes, more shoulder injuries than are necessary.

Some people are blessed with physiologies which may enable them to overcome the joint weakness by building muscular strength to better support the joint. However, Wing Chun was designed even for "ordinary" people without outstanding physiologies, and does not require this.

In more expanded forms of chi sau (e.g., gor sau, sparring, lat sau), if someone presses down on your bong sau, you should transition to something else. We have a saying ... "Bong sau never stops or stays." If someone presses down on your bong sau, then all to the good if you can immediately show them the error of their way. ;)

Wing Chun was designed to protect our bodies, not to injure it through practice. It is essential to get proper instruction and correction in practice and application of bong sau. If a given instructor is weak in understanding, or if they are challenged to convey their knowledge to ourselves in particular (some of us are a bit thick-headed at times), it behooves us to seek out someone who can better assist us. This also acknowledges our responsibility to be good learners.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[NeedsPractice]

Have your sifu or a senior student take a look at your body structure/positioning, proper or at least better alignment and positioning can help eliminate some of the stress. I have been through exactly what you are talking about.
You may notice that the people who are muscling through the exercise may tend to be relatively new to wing chun so they do it incorrectly,and also need correction from the sifu or a senior

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by NeedsPractice
Have your sifu or a senior student take a look at your body structure/positioning, proper or at least better alignment and positioning can help eliminate some of the stress. I have been through exactly what you are talking about.
You may notice that the people who are muscling through the exercise may tend to be relatively new to wing chun so they do it incorrectly,and also need correction from the sifu or a senior
The above is good general advice.

Do go see a doctor. You cannot strengthen an injured joint. First it's injury must be healed.

Good luck,

[kj]

Originally posted by John Weiland

The above is good general advice.

Do go see a doctor. You cannot strengthen an injured joint. First it's injury must be healed.

Yes. Meantime, lay off and ice it.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Ras-Tanu]

Sounds good! Thanks for the suggestions everyone. :)

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Ras-Tanu
I try to use proper form for bong sau, but partners sometimes are too heavy. The various lineages have different opinions of what a proper bong sau is. Simply, if it hurts you it is wrong. You might be doing the bong sau incorrectly. Or.... you might be doing it correctly according to your sifu, but his bong sau form is wrong.

[yuanfen]

Enter the Whip points out:
Simply, if it hurts you it is wrong. You might be doing the bong sau incorrectly. Or.... you might be doing it correctly according to your sifu, but his bong sau form is wrong.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Could be both partners doing things wrong.
Lop sao and chi sao should ask very little of the shoulder
except a smooth working swivelling joint. The devil is in the details of the elbow
IMHO wing chun motions when done right should result in
less injury than many sports.

yuanfen

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by Ras-Tanu
My shoulder is killing me from doing lop sau cycle thing and from chi sau. I am in so much pain. Are shoulder probs common in wing chun? I try to use proper form for bong sau, but partners sometimes are too heavy. I am waiting a few days before seeing a doc; anyone got any tips to help ease the pain?:(

You sound exactly like me 2 years ago. I had a lot of shoulder pain caused by lop sau, chi sau and don chi sau. I felt that my partner was always "leaning" on me or try to force my bong down. While I am sure this was the case (the leaning) the solution to the problem was not as appearant. As time went by the pain lessened until completely gone. I no longer have shoulder pain and can play those same games with people who "lean" without a problem.

I think you will find that as you advance 2 things will happen:

1. Your sensitivity will increase so that (as mentioned above) your bong will do the natural thing and become something else. My inclination, as a beginner was to try to hold the other guy off with bong-- not a good idea! This is force against force and goes against the very nature of WCK. Picture your transitioning bong as water and the other person (who is leaning heavily) as the object the water flows around. As you advance you will even get to the point where it is actually easier to deal with the heavy, muscling, leaning guy than the lighter more sensitive player.

2. The second part of the solution is conditioning. Your shoulders will simply get stronger and will fatigue less easily the more you use them. But, as with any conditioning or strengthening activity, it will take time and you must be very carefull not to injure yourself!

I guess the bottom line (as others suggested above) is to be patient- your skill will increase thus taking strain off of the shoulder, and take it easy- give your body a chance to catch up to your eagerness to learn!

Hope this helps.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Could be both partners doing things wrong.Yuanfen! In my humble opinion ;) when practicing drills, it shouldn't matter what the other person is doing. My goal in a drill is to make it of no consequence, whether he is to heavy, or performing a particular move wrong.

[yuanfen]

Enter the Whip!
In my very humble opinion what I said doesnt contradict that-
even if one person is doing chi sao "wrong", a good wing chun person should be able to "adjust". Still both persons can be doing things wrong. Right?

[Phil Redmond]

Most of us do a bong sao with the shoulder down while raising the elbow. This causes strain to the rotator cuff in the shoulder. James DeMille of Wing Chun Do figured this out and changed their bong sao. I was told the same thing by William Cheung in 1983 when I first learned TWC. He taught me to raise my shoulder as I raise my elbow. I used to have really bad shoulder problems when I did bong sao the way I used to. The clincher was when my Doctor told me that the way I do it now is better for the rotator cuff.
Phil

[yuanfen]

I do not raise my shoulder in bong sao- use the shoulder as a swivel. But neither do I just raise the elbow. There is a specific path for the elbow IMHO.. I have had zero shoulder problems in wing chun.... or any shoulder or elbow tendonitis. The only shoulder problem I had once was from overdoing weed chopping when the weeds got to too high and I was swinging back and forth too much the wrong way. Rest and wing chun bong saos and weapons work got me going again.
I know that some folks have been modifying the bong sao-- but it works fine as is for me.
Raising the shoulder IMHO changes the entire structure. No one who I personally know who do the bong the way I described
with the shoulder not lifted- have had shoulder problems.
But things can happen and details of individual postures can vary.
jc

[Miles Teg]

In my and many other schools of WC, an indication of how good someone is at chi sau is how heavey their arms are.
This is a strange phenonomum (spelling sux), because all though it feels like they are trying to push you down they arent and they still have forward intent.

That being said beginners should not have to have this pressure put on them until they are at the stage where they can hold it without any muscle tension. I think a good sifu should always be one step ahead of you, dangling the carrot if you will. Not at 10 steps ahead of you where you cant handle it. That is showing off and is not benefiting the student.

Im not saying thats what your seniors/teachers are doing though, as I dont know how your school trains or their approach to WC.

[mun hung]

If you move your bong sau away during chi sau or lop sau does your partners fist fall downwards or does it strike you?

One way the bong sau shoulder tires is from bridging with and supporting the wrong intention...and/or dealing with it the wrong way. Or maybe doing it completely wrong.

I'm with yaunfen. I've hurt my shoulder numerous ways in the past, but never from bong sau.

[Phil Redmond]

TWC bong sao is like the White Crane bong sao. Since "our" Wing Chun has aspects of the Crane. Also, When I was training in other versions of WC I was taught that the elbow should be higher thatn the wrist for deflection.
Phil

[Mr. Bao]

Ras:

Greetings. I will do my best as a trained functional strength/ medical exericse specialist and as a student of wing chun gung fu to answer your question concerning shoulder pain in relation to lap sao chi sao. But pls take all information you gather here with a grain of salt and some common sense.

Yes, minor/major injuries are common in all atheletic contact acitivies such football, boxing, kung fu, etc. However, major injuries can be prevented with proper training, education, and self preventive medicine. You should understand and seek all possible ways to avoid unncessary injuries to yourself and your sihings/sidais in your kwoon.

Go research in the bookstores and via internet for more information about this subject. Because a self educated man is worth more than a college degree in my opinion. From my past wing chun experience, I have sustained injuries in my wrist, elbows, and shoulders because I was a kai dai (lol). However, through self preventive treatments (R.I.C.E. method, PNF/AI stretch theories, etc), and through my sifu's traditional chinese medical treatments all my injuries were greatly healed and quickly recovered. My SiFu (Lee Chee Kong) is a talented dit dar doctor and an excellent instructor of wing chun gung fu and was taught by very talented experts and masters such as Lok Yiu, Yip Man, and Duncan Leung. I owe him much for my understanding of wing chun and functional strength toward kung fu.

Many people have addressed that by correcting your form, this can prevent your shoulder condition which is a good and valid point, but they do not know your background. And like I stated before I do not whether your form is good or not or maybe your partner who has the superior lap sao is really inferior? But for argument's sake, lets assume you have a inferior lap sao and your parnter has the superior lap sao, ok?

Forget the ego, and ask your sifu for some guidance, and ask your partner why is his technique breaking down your defense. With the information you get from both people is half the picture, because the right feeling is something that no one can show you. That means you have to ask yourself the cause of your own ignorance. The way I see it, getting external feedback is good, but a combination of internal and external feedback is even greater than one source.

Ras, you sometimes have to ask the right questions, to get the right answers. My teacher has always asked me to think for myself and find out the right answer. I will suggest the same for you, brother. However, I will suggest you at something not eastern, but something western (some of the round eye thinkers ain't bad me thinks) lol.

Start by asking these concepts which many take for granted while they are learning something new in their kwoon. The anicent greek philosopher Artistole, the father of inductive reasoning used what is called "four causes" and by knowing these four causes you can know the subject you are observing or think about. The four causes are 1.what, 2. where, 3. when, and 4. why."

In asking yourself the 4 causes in relation to lap sao/bong sao, think about this; eg: What is bong sao, where does it come from/where does the power come, when can I appy it, and why do I do it, what is the relationship of my horse to the bong sao? What is lap sao, where does it come from,where does the power come from, when can I use it, why does it exist/what is its function? You should try to answer these questions through practical practice as well as in meditation.

A good and talented teacher should be able to explain and answer these questions with ease and without confusing with you without bs for sure. Have faith in yourself and I am sure you will get the answer you are seeking. If you interested in knowing my entire take on bong sao, you can go to Duncan Leung's message board and look it up @( htttp://www.dream-tools.come/tools/messageview.mv?view+wingchun+491+index+)

Furthermore, it is my opinion that if you had an accurate and correct form, no matter how bad or strong your parnter lap sao, you should be able to defend it pain free unless you had a scapula degenrative disorder previous to your wing chun training.
Personally I had have the pleasure of dealing with pretty heavy lap sao of many excellent wing chun players in which I had too a previous limitation of my right shoulder, but I was able to defend myself using my bong sao or wu sao without hurting my shoulder.

Last note, it is good that you are seeking medical attention for your shoulder. That is a plus, mate. No matter what people tell you here, all atheletic movement from basic to advance have the potential to hurt you that includes (bong sao). Unless they are a trained sport doctor and at the same time a master of wingchun gung fu, then you should doubt very much what people have to say about your pain in performing wing chun techniques for your own well being. They are correct in the sense that all movement should be pain free, but then again not everyone is not built the same or at the same level of fitness and health.

It is from my observation of our wing chun techiques, we have many internal rotation shoulder movements and we used the stablizing muscles our shoulders to a greater degree then most kung fu systems. You might want to balance out much internal rotational movement with external rotational movement which I know your doctor will recommend as one of your for physical therapy treatments.

Furthermore, the power of bong sao comes from not your deltoid alone, ras, if you used your deltoid alone then you created an ineffective bridge which stresses too much on the acromion /coracoid process of the scapula. You must learn to use the stablizers or the (SITS) muscles behind the shoulder aka scapula. SITS are 1. supraspinatus, 2. infraspinatus,3. teres minor, 4. subscapularis. These are the power muscles of tan, bong, and fok sao of the upper body region. Learn them and know how they function within your form and techniques. Ask your doctor to locate them on your own body and look at them in anatomy chart in his/her office.

Well, i have written enough. I hope this helps. It has been a pleasure to really take the time to explain to you what I think about your questions and good luck and best wishes for this new year. Email me if you have any questions concerning your PT for your shoulders.

[Nichiren]

Ras: Watch out.

I had the same problems a couple of years ago and it lead to a rotary cuff injury so severe that I had to have surgery on my right shoulder. Today I can't use the bong on either arm without pain and you could say that I have cut out the bong competely from my WC arsenal.

This haven't made my WC any worse just different. I have a more direct style. If it doesn't get any better talk to a doctor because if you get worn-out shoulders its to late.

/Cheers