What does everyone think about training videos? Are they beneficial?

[Deacon]

Okay, so I'm new to the shaolin systems and have been dying to become involved in them for the last few years. I have finally found a school that can teach me the five animals, eagle, and a few others, however I am a bit financially strapped at the moment for an additional committment to trainning (I currently am studying Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu).

Since I can't afford the classes right now, would a video on, for instance, eagle claw be a good introduction to understanding and becoming familiar with a style or is it a bit unpractical for learning the style. I really want to get started on training but if instructional videos are unhelpful, I'd like to know. What does everyone think? Your comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks.

BTW, is anyone familar with reputable schools of shaolin, or related Chinese systems in the Chicagoland area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[David Jamieson]

people have different abilities in their personal learning style IE: some can learn when shown, some need to hear and be shown, some can just watch and others need total involvement and so on.

If you are a person who can learn from a video then go for it. They are an incredibly useful tool of instruction if they fit your learning style.

and don't let no one tell you different. you may need corrction at some point, but that's what everybody needs in some place regarding their training or performance.

cheers

[kai men]

Well, my position about this is contradictory.
I think that Videos are a very valuable tool for research. Also think that if you are going to train with a teacher who lives away from your town, you could benefit from training with the videos first and during your relationship.
But...some people have became "kung fu teachers" just by learning some videos. These are the bad news about this.
So what can we do?
Some teachers edit videos with forms cutting some movements so the guys cannot learn them properly. Others make the mistake to edit "all the style" so many persons just buy the videos and in a while create a school.
Videos are a tool. If you use them properly they are wonderfull. If you dont, just the opposite.
My teacher doesn't like videos very much. I have no authorization to edit (for example) choy li fat videos with complete forms. I think it is a wise decition.
Kindest regards
horacio
PD about "learning from videos" it is a reasonable good tool if you plan to go to the teacher some day to make corrections.

[Sharp Phil]

A lot depends on the individual video, too. I review a lot of instructional tapes, and they aren't all created equal. There are a lot of little details that can make the presentation of good content mediocre in execution (or vice versa).

[freedom76]

I have found videos easy to learn from, but I had been studying martial arts for about 6 years before I started using them. Some videos are easier to learn from than others. Ive liked Sifu Wing Lams videos quite a bit. Also, the Shi Guolin series, which you can buy from this company are also done very well. The Whip Chain video by the Jiang Su Wushu Team--also available from this company--was also done very well. I think you need to have a good base in Kung Fu to gain that much more from a video, but a lot depends on you. Give it a shot. Xiao Hong Chuan is a pretty basic form that is part of the Shi Guolin series. That might be the best one to start with. This is just my opinion based on my experience. Good luck.

[HuangKaiVun]

Videos are terrific.

I actually learned MORE from videos than I did from real life kung fu instructors.

You can always pop in the video, even at 2 AM. If you can't see a detail, you can go into slow motion or rewind to the sections you need. And the video is a one-time fee.

However, I always tempered my video training with heavy doses of sparring. One has to be able to USE his kung fu, regardless of where it was learned from.

Combat is how I figured out if what I did worked - and what I'd have to do to correct myself from getting beat up again.

[kai men]

Well, I am sorry to read it. If you have learnt more from videos than from real instructors, I hope I will never meet your instructors! ;-))) just kidding. I am sure they will feel very happy to know what you have learnt from them: you learnt how to learn from videos :-)
I agree in this: Videos are indeed terrific. er...let's say, SOME videos. Anyway, I have never met an instructor who puts his best knowledge in a video.
Regards
horacio

[Royal Dragon]

I think videos are a great tool, especially if you are researcing rare arts. HOWEVER, you need to have a strong foundation in the fundementals, and the eye to determin if the preformer on the video has them. A good example is a series of Tai Tzu forms I just got in. The sets themselves are very good, but the performers performing them are VERY bad. The body structure is all wrong, the useage is all wrong, the body mechanics are all wrong, the flavor is all wrong. You really need to have an experianced eye to see those sorts of details. That only comes from a good teacher. I can do quite a bit with those tapes anyway, because I have the eye to see this stuff, and I have VERY good examples of the core principals, flavor and expression of what this art is suposed to be from a variety of sources. An inexperianced beginner would get it all wrong due to the fact that this perticular tape is all wrong, other than the sequence of techniques is right that is. I am going to have to rely on my onw background in the art to "Restore" it. A beginner can't do that.

Another example is a Taiji Ruler video I got from Rich Mooney. He sent me the outside movements of the exercise, but not the inner body mechanics. Now, for me this is no big deal as I already have the "Inside" of the Taiji Ruler, and it is really nothing for me to just plug the principals back into the moves he sent me. BUT, a total beginner would in no way be able to learn from the tape as the core fundementals are missing so far as body structure, and mechanics go. The video was not meant to teach, but ment to introduce newbies to the perticular Qi Gong he teaches. You still need a teacher to get it right.

What i'm trying to say, is once you have been trained by a GOOD teacher, you can expand yourself quite a bit with video and books. But if you DON'T have that foundation, they are just cool things to collect.

[tomcat]

Deacon, see if you can get the 1st form taught at the school your interesed in on video,after you learn the movements and techniques, if your still interestd then go to the school,you will have a jump on the curricullum,and a better idea of what the system is like.
Just my personal opinion but 5 animals may mix with your jujitsu better than Eagle claw.

[yu shan]

I personally use video as "notes" when I Train with my Shrfu. I video training sessions, for later viewing. No way should you "learn" from a video, a strong advocate of having a Teacher. This being said, to our Older KF Brothers, you are perfectly able of visually "picking things up" on video...I like being taught the old way!

[HuangKaiVun]

Regardless of whether you're learning from a real sifu or a video one, you have to change the set to fit your frame and tendencies.

Much of that which works in sparring for my slow 5'8" 250 lb sifu doesn't work for the small quick 5'4" 135 lb guy like me. No amount of real instructor sifuing can change that.

The gold standard in kung fu, regardless of style, is DOES IT WORK?

I'd rather learn one technique from a video that works against a living resisting opponent than 100 techniques from a real life instructor who has all the lineage and tradition and can't fight (most of the time, this is the case).

I've trained as a closed-door disciple, and I will say that so-called "best techniques" are usually merely variations on simple ones.

Besides, I've been trained how to TEST my moves to see if they work or not.

[tomcat]

Most video's I've seen don't show a whole lot of techniques,and if you have not had training with a Sifu,you will not be able to pick them out. They can be a great aid, and can open up insghts that were missed or not understood,when explained by your sifu.

[Laughing Cow]

My Sifu has a Video of the first form out.

Quiet a few of out students bought them and we use them for reference.

Some of those cannot attend every class as they live to far away (5hrs on train one-way).
So they learn the rough movements of the tapes and get corrections from Sifu when they come down.

Yes, they are useful and at the same time very limiting.
Our Sifu does a very "hands-on" approach where he corrects our movements phsyically and will also allow us to lay hands on him so that he can feel the difference.

Plus, the movements within the forms change as we progress. A 1st yr student will execute the move differently than a 5yr student.

And you can learn a lot from watching your fellow students too.

As a supplement I think they are good, as sole teaching tool bad.

[MonkeyBoy]

I.M.H.O

Videos are a great supplement.

They are a simple way to see what the other guy is up too.

They are not a substitute for a qualified instructor.

There are plenty of poor instructors out there who provide lousy to no feedback but there are no videos out there that provide any feedback at all.

[Royal Dragon]

Still, a good video is better than a bad teacher. Especially if you have a dedicated training partner with a good eye.

[MonkeyBoy]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Still, a good video is better than a bad teacher. Especially if you have a dedicated training partner with a good eye.

I concur but "If" is a bigger word than it appears to be.

Of the tapes you've reviewed, do you have any that you consider to be most/least helpful?

I'd really like to know Gene's best/worst list, heck I'd like to se a thread on it.

[HuangKaiVun]

There are some really good videos out there.

My favorite is Paul Vunak's "Street Safe". The 8 moves he presents in that series are easy and versatile - and they WORK.

Kwong Wing Lam's entire video series is 1st rate. He even has a video correspondence program for you to get corrected - thus annulling Monkeyboy's "no feedback" statement. I've had my own form corrected by Lam, and he is METICULOUS.

Too many times, I hear the "you must learn from a teacher and not a video" used as an excuse to avoid the painful reality of SPARRING.

[Lao_Peng_You]

Too many times, I hear the "you must learn from a teacher and not a video" used as an excuse to avoid the painful reality of SPARRING.


This statement is a non-sequator...please elaborate. Also, is sparring really "painful", is it really "reality"? Who have you heard this excuse from many times?

Thanks

[Royal Dragon]

Hm, the best video I got for learning was custom designed by Sifu Livingston, and it was backed up by a plane flight to Baltimore for intensive weekend training.

Most of the Shaolin Monk stuff is good, because they break everything down really well. If it was me, I would only get videos by the Monks here in the US, so it is wasy to jump on a plane and fly in for the corrections, and applications.

I haven't actually seen them, but I suspect the South mantis videos are good too, as you can get feed back, and the always important plane flight could probably easily arranged.

I don't recomend a purely solo video learning program. You NEED a teacher, or an experianced training partner to make the corrections. You yourself really need a good foundation in a similar art as well. At least a solid understanding of basics, principals and fundementals. If you don't have that, at best you will end up with a crude system loosely based on the art your trying to learn.

[Laughing Cow]

Have to agree with RD.

Corrections via send Video are not bad, but they are not a substitute for a live teacher.

The Video maybe shows you doing a tech once or twice and you will unwilling make fewer mistakes than in the class-room.

Thus I don't think that the Video will be an accurate presentation of your skill, as the one you are learning from is not an accurate one of your teachers.

Also the correcting person suffers from the same lack of viewing angles, asking for a particular sequence be done slow/fast or similar as you did when you learned from the tape.

In a class-room environment your teacher can observe you ALL the time, even when he is demoing or similar.

Just some thoughts.

[MonkeyBoy]

Royal,

I really agreed with what you said about having a background in a similar art. In the past 20 years I have only gotten a few hints if a tape was outside an art I've formally studied.

However while I've found Wing Chun and Hung Ga tapes a benefit, I have found most Monkey/Mantis tapes to be anywhere from lacking to misleading.

While I am sure that a correspondence course is a step above a tape/disc alone, I can think of many problems on both the sending and receiving end of such an exchange. But from what you said, if you can get on a plane and ask the man yourself, you're quite covered.

Since HKV replied without addressing what I actually said, I am going to respond to HKV via PM, I am sure he will be upset by my comments and I'd like to spare the forum another rant thread.

When I was 13 I was taught to believe Kung Fu was all Pain, Patience and Sacrifice. I now believe it is also about Knowledge, Wisdom and Perseverance.

[HuangKaiVun]

And what didn't I respond to, MonkeyBoy?

You haven't PM'ed me yet, and I still await your messages. Can't we continue this good discussion out in the open on this thread?

To tell you the truth, I don't understand why I should be mad at all. What have you done to anger me?


So every technique you've been shown by your real life teacher has worked against a resisting opponent, Lao_Peng_You?

You must be an incredible and unbeatable martial artist to do this without having to endure the pain of regular sparring.

Unlike you, I get smacked around regularly by opponents in the process of learning how to apply techniques. You've never had a technique fail on you (who's your sifu? I want to learn myself), so you've never had to endure the painful consequence of somebody beating you down when your technique fails you.

There's the mental pain of finding out that a technique failed, and then there's the mental pain of reworking the technique until it works - or is discarded. Since you've never had a mental failure, you've never had to struggle with blowing up preconceptions until the style works for YOU. For me, it was a long and painful process.

My experience in teaching and training has shown me that the physical and mental "pain" of training is everything but "non-sequitor", at least for us normal people.

[Lao_Peng_You]

HKV,

Thanks for taking the time to answer. I won't take any offense to your "lashing out", as I know it's easy to do on the internet. Just to answer in kind, of course I have to work on my techniques in order for them to work, and work on them with "live speed" and with different types of practitioners. Of course I've been beaten, that's how I've learned. I normally work on techniques I'm trying to get better at, and that means adjusting and refining the ones that have failed. Yes also to the beating down when you make a mistake in fighting. I like how you put the "physical and mental pain" of training. I agree that this is at least part of the combination to learning and improving. The "non-sequitur" had to do with your original statement, not your sentiment.

One last thing, it does not help the dialogue if you make assumptions that are unfounded. My goal in participating in this forum is to gain a better understanding of what others "perceive" through and in their martial art in order that I can in turn learn as well. I hope this makes our future communications less "prejudicial".
Take care

[phoenix-eye]

Videos are excellent for picking up the very basics of a form.

However, you will definitely need an instructor to pick up the important, seemingly minor points, that make all the difference. These can turn a mediocre form into a very effective and efficient form.

I am lucky in that my sifu is content for me to learn Wing Lam Hung Gar videos in the knowledge that my sifu trains direct with sifu Lam in California. I therefore have opportunity to correct my form in person with my Sifu, and, last year got to correct form in person with Sifu Lam in UK.

Trust me - you realise how little you learn from a video when your Sifu (and in particular Sifu Lam) corrects it......

From my own experience, I find it easy to learn a basic form from video. However, some classmates have found it impossible. I really think it depends upon your ability, basics, and psychology (regarding learning).

Videos can shorten the learning curve by a great amount. However, you do still need a Sifu.

[kai men]

A very good post! I couldn't have done it better, you have explained the matter with total good sense and it is important that you opinion is coming from your personal experience.
Kindest regards
horacio

[HuangKaiVun]

You STILL don't get what I'm trying to say, Lao_Peng_You.

That I knew before you posted your reply.

[Brad]

Also, is sparring really "painful", is it really "reality"? Who have you heard this excuse from many times?
In sparring, you're punching, kicking, throwing, and locking each other. That's going to hurt. To be a good fighter you have to train your body hard. That's also going to hurt.

[Kymus]

I think that videos can be real good if you get the right ones. I found one of Dr. Yang's videos on Long Fist at the library and the video is very well done. There are many applications and the form is shown in many different angles. I think that videos help commpliment your system, but you should never solely rely on them. It takes tons of practice to learn how to connect with each movement. You get that kind of practice in the calssroom. But yeah, video are real awesome as long as they don't get to your head (like the guy who thought he could beat a brown sash with the Tai Chi he learned from a book)(didn't know him, only heard the story from a class mate)

[GeneChing]

The best stuff is anything that I worked on. The worst stuff, well, for the most part, the worst videos have succumbed to failure and are no longer available. The new worst stuff I haven't been able to keep up with.

As most of you know I worked on most all of the Wing Lam series. I did the scripts bulk of his BSL, Hung Gar, Chin Na, Tai Chi, and the stuff he did for the Lau sisters, Lily and Gini. There were a few odd videos throughout the series that I didn't do, and I didn't do the Xingyi stuff. I can't remember if I did the Bagua.

For TCMedia, I've worked on Tu Jin Sheng's videos (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/qigongvideospr.html) , Chan Sau Chung's, Jiangsu Wushu team's (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/wushuvideos.html) , Lily Lau's (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/vid72joinloc.html) , Alex Tao's (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/milpolvid.html) , Shi De Qian's (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/vidshaolmusc.html) and probably a few more that I cna't remember now. I've been meaning to sit down and count how many videos I've worked on - well over a 100, possibly to break 200 soon. I'm begining to wonder if anyone has worked on as many martial arts videos as I have.

So when someone asks do I think training vidoes are beneficial, of course I say yes. It supports my living. Seriously, I think most people are looking for excuses for their bad habits. You can learn from anything, even bad videos. How else will you learn what not to do? Of course, any research must be guided by common sense, but our ancestors learned from clouds, from wild animals, even from hallucinatory visions, and you wonder if we can learn from videos?

[norther practitioner]

So when someone asks do I think training vidoes are beneficial, of course I say yes. It supports my living. Seriously, I think most people are looking for excuses for their bad habits. You can learn from anything, even bad videos. How else will you learn what not to do? Of course, any research must be guided by common sense, but our ancestors learned from clouds, from wild animals, even from hallucinatory visions, and you wonder if we can learn from videos?


Great reply Gene, I wholeheartedly agree!

[Ravenshaw]

Originally posted by GeneChing
You can learn from anything, even bad videos. How else will you learn what not to do? Of course, any research must be guided by common sense, but our ancestors learned from clouds, from wild animals, even from hallucinatory visions, and you wonder if we can learn from videos?

I must agree with my si hing. Sifu Lam is fond of telling his students that a good student is able to perform a movement after seeing it just three times. As some of you might know, his (Wing Lam's) videos do show each movement at least three times. If there are videos that do not show movements three times or if you need to view it more, just rewind!

[cha kuen]

Many of the higher level strict teachers say that their students have a hard enough time doing the movements correct when they are there!

Based on this philosophy, how can you learn when the sifu is not there? Just one wrong detail and you're going down a bad road, building bad habits that will be hard to break.

And what is learning from a video anyways? Learning a form? You need to feel with your hands, the applications and the opponent....not just punch air.

So I'd say they shouldn't be used as instructionals.

[GeneChing]

rs - I guess I better look at those aerials two more times. ;)

ck - Well, the key in your statement is high level learning. High level learning comes from within. High level coaching comes from a good teacher. That's really hard to get from video. Now I'm not advocating that you watch videos and learn all you Kung Fu from that. Not at all. But I am advocating that any serious student will use every means at their disposal to learn more and videos are great for that.

Beleive me, there are a lot of videos that do more than punch air. Here's an example, it's unlikely that I would take up BJJ now. But I'll watch a BJJ video to check out what they do. In the best of worlds, I might even steal a few moves from the video and add them to my repetoire. I would never call myself a BJJ master after that, but at the same time, I wouldn't say that I didn't learn anything from the video. The same would go for any MA video.

Let me tell you, it's a heck of a lot easier than learning from hallucinatory visions. or clouds...

[carly]

and even if you don't, you can learn a lot from a video.
Many teachers taught behind closed doors in the past, because others could see their moves and learn their stuff if they practiced outside.

[David Jamieson]

I learned from my first Kung Fu teacher:

North Shaolin -
-Lien Bo Chuan
-10 road Tan Tui
-Tun Ta
-Moi Fah

Southern Shaolin Black Tiger
-Gung Lik Kuen
-Da Kuen
-Tiger/Crane Fighting set
-Staff
-Kwan Do
-Butterfly knifes

Augmentation -

-Chin Na
-Buddhist/Taoist Nei Gong
-8 pieces of brocade
-6 healing breaths
-Golden Needle
-Iron Palm fundaments

-Elements of Pa Kua, Tai Chi,
-The Shaolin Basic (this includes lots of stuff)

From a visiting teacher at my kf teachers school I learned:

-Spear double broadsword fighting set
-Spear set

From my first Tai Chi Teacher I learned:

Yang Family Long form
Yang Family Short form

Prior to these Chinese martial arts, I learned from ITF Tae Kwon Do, Isshin Ryu, Fencing, Wrestling and boxing.

From friends and associates I have learned a whole slew of things such as kickboxing and what not.

From video and books, I have learned:

Northern Shaolin -
-Bot Bo
-Mo I
-Further Iron Palm

Chen Tai Ji-

Silk Reeling exercises
Broadsword

Hung Gar-

Tame the Tiger-
Tiger Crane
Iron Wire

Wing Chun-

Siu Nim Tao
Chum Kil
Bil Jee

General kungfu garnered from video and books-

Hsing I concepts and techniques
Yang style principles and techniques for fighting

I still see books and videos as incredibly useful resources for learning. If they had been around for a thousand years, we wouldn't even be talking about this.

True learning comes from inside you as has been stated. Your teachers will show you doors and impart keys. Once those doors open, you still have the keys and it's not like you're just going to suddenly forget everything because you lack a teacher.

Respect you teachers through continued practice and refinement, you owe them that for pointing the way. The rest you owe to yourself for following the path.

cheers

[WinterPalm]

Kung lek, da kuen is a form I very much want to learn. I've seen sifu perform bits of it and it looks very cool! Could you explain a bit about it?

[David Jamieson]

winterpalm-

Stick with sifu and the school and you will learn the set.
It's a real good set with plenty of stuff wrapped into it.

It has a good flow to it and a wide variety of techniques.
It's not as time consuming as the Gung Lik set, but gets the learner ready to understand the fighting techniques from the system.

Doesn't your sihing A? still do this regularly? I remember it was one of his favourite practice sets.

cheers

[WinterPalm]

Alas, Sihing A is no longer with us. However, I don't remember him doing it. It looks interesting as a fighting set compared to Gunk Lik which I'm learning and is more for strength development and qi qong aspects.

I have no intentions of leaving the kwoon at any time in the near future and look forward to learning the set.
Thanks.:)

[GeneChing]

You know, I've never actually learned a whole form off a video, or a book for that matter. I guess I'm a little spoiled here in Gum shan (SF) land of many masters. I've got more forms than I can keep up with so learning another off video seemed really superfluous for me.

[David Jamieson]

You know, I've never actually learned a whole form off a video, or a book for that matter. I guess I'm a little spoiled here in Gum shan (SF) land of many masters.

Well, the only reason I attempted to and did learn from books and vids is because I simply wanted to see if I could. I used to be against the whole idea, but there you go,,,it really is a case of don't knock it til ya try it :D

My shaolin kung fu teacher made sure my foundation was solid and taught me quite a lot. Learning from these media was actually not that hard after 7 years of for real training.

Stuff just fits when you match it to known principles.

I guess you are spoiled G, there is not an abundance of masters here like there is in Cali.

there are a few, but not as many. Must be da freezin weather, hahahaha.

cheers

[WanderingMonk]

Hi Kung Lek,

What's the difference between shaolin black tiger's version of tiger/crane and hung gar's version?

thanks

wm

[David Jamieson]

tiger and crane each match the other and are two seperate sets.

cheers

[GeneChing]

...but then, look at the career I chose.

But to get back to the subject of learning from videos, even though I don't learn whole forms, I learn a lot. For example, Guolin's videos (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/shaolinvideos.html) have been great for me to see forms that I already know and get a more comprehensive picture of different variations and interpretations. But on a larger scale, I remember learning an application from a small circle jujitsu video (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/dvdlj001.html) that fit perfectly into one of my BSL forms. I even wrote about it in our JUL AUG 2003 issue. (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf200110.html)

If your on the martial path, you're always learning from everything. Videos are a great source because they are designed to teach. Don't limit yourself by saying you can't learn a whole form from video. Who needs a whole form? Just seek the essence.

[David Jamieson]

I agree with that Gene.

I have seen different versions of the same set from a variety of sources.

Each version has the same sequence, but small differences in hand form, posture, etc.

For instance.

I learned Tun Ta first hand from my Shaolin KF teacher from the BSL curriculum.

Later, I saw a wu chi nyu video of the same set and it was sequentially the same, but there were differences in some of the hand forms used in striking and there was a new part (a head butt) that I had not used in the form I was taught although it did fit.
I then saw KWL's video of this set and the flavour was a lot closer to what I had learned but again not exactly the same.

I then watched a video online from a website of the set again and once again there were slight variations to the set.

Now this could simply be attributed to the BSL source and it's iterative generational understanding of the sets by the various teachers. But I was quite relieved to find that regardless of the small differences, the set was in essence and flavour the same from one example to the next.

With Hung Gar, I find much larger differences from one example to the next. Gung Gee fook fu from one school is not necessarily even close sequentially or flavour wise in another school. The same goes for the fu hok and tid sen.

Same again with Wing Chun, I see fairly distinct differences in the variations on this style as well.

cheers

[GeneChing]

Sure there's variation. I mean were not robots, are we? I really enjoy the variations - those can really open doors in your practice. My point is a little more beyond that though. When people ask about training vidoes, there's an implication that the vidoe does all the work. You just watch it and follow it, just like you might just watch your Sifu and follow him. I find that absurd. Maybe in ancient times, when there was just one source, sticking to your master dogmatcially was the way to go. But nowadays, there is so much information, so much research, so many resources. You'd be a fool not to engage them. Maybe you don't come away with a whole form, but so what? As long as you come away with something, it has value. So of course training videos are beneficial, of course!

Actually training videos are inanimate. It's up to you, the viewer, to glean the benefit. So I might qualify this and say you can get benefits from any training video if you are perceptive, but robots should seek a more active programmer. ;)

[Fujin]

I reccomend these videos from WTN Productions...they're not silly show tapes...they're meant purely as instructional videos...good thourough instruction and film quality.

http://www.secretsoftheorient.com/secretsoftheorient/index.htm

They have videos on northern shaolin basics and weapons, choy li fut (doc fai wong), hung gar kuen (master wing lam i believe),
some wu tang sword stuff...and others.

they come highly reccomended.

ryan :D

[Leimeng]

~ One can learn from videos provided they are are willling to work very hard and seach corrections from competent instructors. Since most people are not willing to work hard, and competent instructors are hard to find, then the purpose of most videos is to provide a source of extra income for the producer of the school.
~ The best videos I have seen for training are from Green Dragon Studios, and the Association for Tradional Studies and their Yin Fu Ba Gua system.
~ I also like Wing Lam's Hung Gar stuff.
~ The worst are from anybody who claims to make you a master of a never before revealed super secret system that you can learn in 5 easy lessons for $79.98 plus $5 for shipping and handling.
~ Anything from Jim Lacy and Mew Hing productions pretty much sucks as well.

Peace

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

[Royal Dragon]

Personally, I don't recomend Green Dragon Studios. They don't seem to have the slightest idea of proper body structure or mechanics. I have some Long Fist tapes form them, and many of the moves are performed wrong, and break some fundemental principals. I think the videos sold at Martialartsmat.com especially the Monk videos are the way to go as the basics are at least sound.

You might also want to check my site out, as I have a good store with some excellent material on it.

[Guile]

Are there any good videos that show applications of forms?

[Royal Dragon]

I haven't seen any. I am just buying anything fight oriented, like two man sets or stuff on the Taiwan police system, and looking for moves I recognise out of my forms. So far I have gotten some inspiration form them, but the real eye opening stuff has come from other Tai Tzu people sending me video of the actual sets I do, and their application, nothing comercial.

[Guile]

How about that Chinese Policeman videos we see advertiesed here?

[Guile]

If that is what the chinese police use I would assume it should at least be efficient.

[Royal Dragon]

I have the ones from here by Alex Tao. I thought they were very good, and I defenetly got some ideas on applications for my forms.

[Guile]

Thanks

[Pilgrim]

Hi
I was wondering if you could specifically give examples of Green dragon tapes
1) not having slightest idea proper of body mechanics
2) pefrorming moves wrong
3) and what fundamental principals they break.
This isn't a flame but sincere questions. I've learned some forms from a long-term student of Feeman Ong/Dave Wetsel and Green Dragon is an off-shoot of their school.
For example, I learned Shao Fu Yin and it is definately different from the Green Dragon version-the openning salute is different, there are more twist stances, and my teacher had more extension in his movements. But you can see it's the same form.
I've been doing the body exercise for a while now, Green Dragon's Iron Vest Program, and it 's clearly a form that makes me feel better evryday.Arm grabs are great.
Anyway, I think the system that Green Dragon comes from is great and John Allen's tapes are good representatives of the system. If you do the forms and strenght trainning you will get very strong and powerful. Just like many other systems.

[kai men]

WTN videos are a real shame. I am not talking about the videos he sells from other authors (as Kwong Wing Lam) which are nice. I am talking about the videos he made without permission of his Sifu , Chan Kowk Wai, publishing forms that my Sifu would never had agreed to perform in an instructional video.
He has sold videos showing monkey, snake, and so many forms my teacher highly appreciates as forms to be learnt only inside the Academy (not secret of course, just "special" and not to be offered in a video for some few dollars).
I have seen the videos and they are terrible! it is very fortunate that WTN is not any more connected with our school
Sincerely
horacio di renzo
Disciple of GM Chan Kowk Wai