did wong shun leung ever

[norrin]

train his body for physical improvementß
i mean did he train push ups or his stomach or his legs like bruce lee did for instants?
does anybody know something about this?
come on. this cant be it. he must at least have done some jogging or rope skipping and train his stomach against punches and so on. he was a proffessional fighter. he had to be fit to challenge people like boxer, thais, other kung fu stiles or kyokoshinkai-men. he didnt just went there and so here i am. if the fight takes longer than 3 minutes we stop and i go home.
come on boys let it out;)

[Frank Exchange]

No, apparently he tried pushups later on in life, but felt they slowed him down, so he stopped them.

He got all his strength and power from WC training.

[PaulH]

Hi Frank,

I got this somewhat funny and human story of Wong. Wong was very busy engaged in several book/video projects where he had to pose for several video/camera shots during his later years. He was not quite in shape at the time, so he often gave away his chinese lunches to his students in order to keep down his weight. He knew full well that the camera doesn't blink and he hated looking sloppy. The mind is a terrible thing to waste, but for Wong a waist is a terrible thing to mind.

Regards,

[Stevo]

I read where he was asked that in an interview and said he swam a lot. If I find the article I'll let you know.

Stevo

[Vio]

Isnt Wong known for doing a 100 one hand press-ups with a sack on his back.

[Ernie]

WSl
was very conditioned *when* he fought , he ran swam and there were wieghts in his gym

he would practice footwork and punching with people sitting on his shoulders
there are tons of things the list goes on .........

but what has any of this have to do with you [YOU ARE NOT WSL]
this is not 1950
and the guys your more likely to fight are bigger faster and more informed than they people from the 50's

but then again some of you might believe in chi

:p

just a small word of advice take it or leave it , but you will never be the person you try and copy
be yourself , take responsibility for your own development

or should we follow this hero worship logic a step furthur and start smoking and drinking like WSL did or perhaps become opium junkies like Yip :rolleyes:

[Kevin Bell]

Ernie,

Dont even go there my hackles are rising my blood boiling im gonna unload on some one big time. This topic again AARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHH

Im sorry but what WSL may or may not have said regarding pressups should not be taken as gospel. Should this of been said at all, judging by WSL's extensive physical training regieme catalogued by David Peterson, im sure that was a joke and not to be taken seriously. Should anyone ever say you can be a great fighter without conditioning they are talking out of their #####

[[just a small word of advice take it or leave it , but you will never be the person you try and copy
be yourself , take responsibility for your own development ]]]

Amen to that buddy.

Kev

[David Peterson]

As stated by Ernie, my Sifu pushed himself to the limit in his training, especially in his 'beimo' years and believed in hard training and conditioning. Sometimes he took this to the point where he adversely effected his health and required rest and tonics to recover (see article at: www.cebridge.com.au/wongwebsite/Kwoon/Legend.htm). I keep hearing these stories about him not doing push-ups and weight training because it "...slowed him down..." but I can state catagorically that he never spoke thus in my presence and in fact was encouraging when it came to supplementary exercises of most kinds, offering sound advice concerning developing the best results for one's individual needs from such exercises. This included having and using weights in his school and getting his students running, skipping, etc. In any case, Ernie is right when he advises you to be responsible for your own development and stop living in the past. Sifu himself always taught us to be the best that we can be, and not to try to be a copy of someone else. An original is always better than a cheap imitation.
DMP

[Ernie]

dude I hear you !

people lose track of what is really important
not what man ate for breakfast but what an effective training method he left behind and beyond that his attitude towards training
research , test , refine
keep an open mind , look for the most direct and efficient way
if there is a better way show me I want to know

these are a handful of the gems that point toward personal growth and checks and balances

not if he did 200 sit ups or 201
his body and mind were his own and unique
just like everyone else's

David / Kev
good to see you guys around :D

[Vio]

Originally posted by Ernie


but what has any of this have to do with you [YOU ARE NOT WSL]
this is not 1950
and the guys your more likely to fight are bigger faster and more informed than they people from the 50's


Knowing your History is very important.
Not knowing where you came from is a great source of ignorance.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Vio
Knowing your History is very important.
Not knowing where you came from is a great source of ignorance.

ignorance is bliss :D

ps i came from a womans womb just so happend to break water in cuba , now i'm in the usa

god that sure helped with my pak sau i feel so much better now :rolleyes:

[PaulH]

Very nice article from your provided link, DP! I love it! =)

[SAAMAG]

Did WSL ever shyt and think it was going to be a phart? I guess the PC term would be "shart" right? So did WSL ever shart?! :eek:

If he did that, then that must be something key in his training and we should all do it. Maybe that's why his footwork was so different from the traditionalists we see today....

[David Peterson]

You want to elaborate on that one, Vankuen???

[SAAMAG]

I didn't think I would need to. People look to past archtypes to emulate or find justification in their training...

It's similar to that of finding effectiveness of something based on how the other person succeeded in doing so...wait...it's exactly the same.

So my last post was simply poking fun at it.

Don't tell me you don't know what a shart is? Ever seen a movie called "Along came Polly" ?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Wong Shun Leung was one of the very best Wing Chun fighters of the 20th century.

Very few people were in his class - fewer still were those who surpassed him.

We shouldn't take him lightly.

And his training methods ARE of interest.

[David Peterson]

Vankuen:

Sorry, Mate, ...don't know the movie but did figure out the meaning and guessed you were kidding. We are obvioulsy of like-mind as far as living in the past goes ;)
DMP

[RedJunkRebel]

Originally posted by David Peterson
As stated by Ernie, my Sifu pushed himself to the limit in his training, especially in his 'beimo' years and believed in hard training and conditioning. Sometimes he took this to the point where he adversely effected his health and required rest and tonics to recover (see article at: www.cebridge.com.au/wongwebsite/Kwoon/Legend.htm). I keep hearing these stories about him not doing push-ups and weight training because it "...slowed him down..." but I can state catagorically that he never spoke thus in my presence and in fact was encouraging when it came to supplementary exercises of most kinds, offering sound advice concerning developing the best results for one's individual needs from such exercises. This included having and using weights in his school and getting his students running, skipping, etc. DMP Thanks for the info and link, David. I think I speak for many on the forum, when I say its great to have the privilege of someone so close to WSL share their knowledge of him first-hand.

[t_niehoff]

WSL was one of a handful of Yip students that ever developed demonstrable real skill. So the question to ask is how did Wong (and those few others) get the results he did (what did he do that so many of the others did not) -- because we can use that information (and inspiration) to help our own WCK development (if that's an interest of ours). I'm not talking about micro-details (how did he hold his tan sao) but overall. Was it secret info or special knowledge that the other students of Yip just didn't get? Or, did he train hard, fight (do WCK), use that experience to tweak his training, and fight (do WCK) some more? (Isn't there even a story about Yip suggesting an altering of Wong's SNT form because of his getting hit in a fight?). Did he wait until he "completed the whole system" before fighting?

Another interesting question is why did Wong respond when asked about how he won his fights that he used WCK and boxing? Did this have anything to do with his admonishment of "using WCK and not letting it use you" or "don't be a slave to WCK"?

[Kevin Bell]

T Niehoff wrote:
[[Did this have anything to do with his admonishment of "using WCK and not letting it use you" or "don't be a slave to WCK"?]]

There was a story from one of WSL's challange fights whereby he ended the fight with a knee to the face and when talking to his fellow classmates after the fight he was admonished for not using a set "technique" as found in the form. Once again a clear demonstration of not looking beyond the moon pointing finger with regard to his classmates. Lesson for everyone there not to look at techniques but Concepts...

David P:
Im sure that when you read this should i of mistold the story you can correct me:) :)

[Nick Forrer]

Since the original question was 'did wsl ever use weights' which i take to mean did he ever use free weights/ machines etc. and do things like bicep curls, bench press, dead lifts, squats etc. and not to mean hard training, running, skipping, swimming, dummy, pole, wall bag etc. then I would say as far as im aware no.

Another story about WSL. When he was in the UK with my teacher he met a huge bodybuilder who also did TKD. This guy, wanting to show off goes up to his mercedes and picks it up off the ground.
WSL smiles and goes:

'thats nothing. Hold out both your arms straight and lace your fingers together.'

The guy does this..........

'Now try your hardest to stop me moving your arms from this (static) position'

'ok' says the guy................

'ready' says wong

'ready' says the guy

wsl puts his little finger on the guys wrist and without any effort
pushes his arms across.

The guy is overawed and declares WSL a true master!

Moral of the story: intelligent use of levers beats brute strength every time!!

[Kevin Bell]

Nick Nick Nick,

Mate, i reckon we're never gonna agree here, this is just a spill over from a couple of weeks back and you've drawn me in...

You know my views on this no point repeating for the sake of it or it will become a topic thats like watching a film for the fifth time, BORING. Actually, i feel this is no longer a topic of WSL doing weights or not (which David P has stated that he did-and advocated his students do) but who's closest to WSL who said what where and when i mean lets cut the b u l l #####out here, i got no desire what so ever to get involved in other peoples point scoring games (i know you know what im talking about) because frankly i couldnt give a ####. History is History lets have a respect for it not dwell on it and try to live it. Lets all try and share,get on and keeps those doors/avenues open for the future extending the olive branch of friendship so we can all benefit and get on.

Anyway, regardless of where myself and yourself (not others)on physical training side of things i want to speak to you at some point in the near future reference the grappling stuff when you're in the area etc.

Cheers

Kev

P.s HIT sucks:p :p :p j/k

[IRONMONK]

i heard that WSL came from a boxing background-is this correct?

[David Peterson]

Yes it is. You can read of this via the link earlier in this thread.
DMP

[Ultimatewingchun]

Another question about WSL's boxing, David.

I've seen a photo of him on the front cover of a Wing Chun book (don't recall the name of it right now)...wherein his hands are held up fairly high, closed fists, and what seems like something of a boxing pose - but yet the Wing Chun is still very definable and obvious as well.

In what ways would you say, if anything, his Wing Chun and boxing overlapped...in actual fighting application.

[David Peterson]

Hi Victor,
Sounds like the front cover of my book that you are describing :D
Yes, I think that it would be true to say that his boxing background played a continual role in his fighting skills over the years and did subtly influence his WC in many ways. I would say that the main role it played was that it made him a more fluid practitioner who didn't get locked into fixed patterns and ideas, but adapted easily under pressure and was willing to hit from anywhere with anything, rather than slavishly sticking to the so-called "rules" of the system. As you suggested, while the pose has the look of a boxer, it is clearly at the same time very recognisably Wing Chun in nature.
DMP

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thanks, David,

No wonder that Wong, and William, and Bruce made such an impact - and brought so much recognition of, and respect for Wing Chun within the martial arts world....

the three of them were friends who shared something in common - they understood what reality fighting is all about.

.................................................. .....................

BTW, David...what's the title of the book?

And is it available here in the United States?

Can I go into my local martial art store here in NYC, for example, and find it there?

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by David Peterson
Hi Victor,
Sounds like the front cover of my book that you are describing :D
Yes, I think that it would be true to say that his boxing background played a continual role in his fighting skills over the years and did subtly influence his WC in many ways. I would say that the main role it played was that it made him a more fluid practitioner who didn't get locked into fixed patterns and ideas, but adapted easily under pressure and was willing to hit from anywhere with anything, rather than slavishly sticking to the so-called "rules" of the system. As you suggested, while the pose has the look of a boxer, it is clearly at the same time very recognisably Wing Chun in nature.
DMP
Shame on you David. How could a man of your stature in the WC community condon using things outside the "rules" of WC in combat? ;)
Phil

[sihing]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Shame on you David. How could a man of your stature in the WC community condon using things outside the "rules" of WC in combat? ;)
Phil

For me it's not about "condoning" using things outside the WC cirriculum, but is it necessary to do so? Does one have to go outside the system to be a effective fighter, Yes or No? We are individuals first and even though I have only trained in WC, it doesn't mean I can't use other methods I have discovered over the years. In the end it's getting out of the situation safely that counts, not perfection in WC technique and useage.

James

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Thanks, David,

No wonder that Wong, and William, and Bruce made such an impact - and brought so much recognition of, and respect for Wing Chun within the martial arts world....

the three of them were friends who shared something in common - they understood what reality fighting is all about.
...........

There are many references to "Chang" who introduced BL to Yip Man in this article. Chang is Mandarin for the Cantonese surname, Cheung. I thought I'd post the link here because outside of the TWC circle and the stories from Duncan Leung and a few others I hardly ever hear about William Cheung's role in making WC famous in HK. Who knows why he's rarely mentioned. :D
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/WSL_BL.pdf
PR

[Ernie]

Victor,

Just want to ad my 2 cents on WSL and possible boxing influence

I have managed to collect quite a bit of footage on WSL and some of his early private students, and there are some very clear distinctions in the way he moved in comparison to most other Wing chun I have crossed paths with.

What I can see that WSL picked up from boxing was the understanding of footwork, timing, and ballistic motion

His footwork, the way he moved, the directness with very subtle angle changes, the way he could go straight in yet quickly shift and cut if there was any obstruction, very BJD in mentality.

But it was all wing chun structure very clear and visible in his frame work, his body lines were right our of the forms, with aliveness and explosiveness added, David P has this same body look when he moves.

WSL could cut in with his elbow down structure and let the structure trap the person while both hands were free to hit, hard and clean, like skimming on top of the pressure not letting it pin you to the ground or needed to move around to the outside.

If you ever witness and footage of his BJD form and the speed and power he uses, then you get a glimpse of what I’m taking about

It’s like he cultivated directness to a very high degree based on his ability to set up distance and timing and explosive footwork to close the gap.

He was very fluid and light on his feet just could torque and ground at a instant and still it looked like nothing more then a very athletic version of SLT or CK. pure text book wing chun

It’s the spirit in which he did it; he had a goal, not to just do a pretty form but to use his body mechanics to terminate the person in front of him.

The footwork itself consist of 5 basic variations but the development of those simple footwork ideas and the spirit in which you use them is something else

If you ever have a chance to work with David P trust me it’s worth very eye opening, of all the WSL people out there, and even though my own sifu is in a world all by himself, there is something very special about the way David breaks it down, I am lucky enough to have been there first hand and have enough video from him [very generous man] to study and build on.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good post, Ernie.

And sort of what I was expecting to hear...

although you certainly added some important details.

The part about BJD is right on...I have noticed (and sometimes use) both BJD and Dragon Pole footwork and strategy when coming in empty-handed.

In fact..one of the clips of Myron and myself that I left out of the first batch of videos...wherein I defend against two hook punches...you could swear that the body structure I use on the first counter-hit came right out of the Dragon Pole techniques and footwork.

Never even thought about it in those terms before (regarding the Dragon Pole) until I saw the tape later, for the first time....maybe I'll post that clip along with the next set of videos.

As regards this:

"WSL could cut in with his elbow down structure and let the structure trap the person while both hands were free to hit, hard and clean, like skimming on top of the pressure not letting it pin you to the ground or needed to move around to the outside."

Also very similar to what I've been doing when I fight "in the middle"...as opposed to what I do when on the outside flank.

But sounds more pronounced...will work with that a bit more in the laboratory.

BTW...what's the title of David's book?

[Kevin Bell]

If its David's Book it is:

"Look beyond the pointing finger... The Combat Philosophy of Wong Shun Leung.

[Kevin Bell]

Actually Ernie i believe there is some footage of WSL and Clive doing the BJD form on Clive's website. Unfortunately its a little grainy but thanks go to Clive for putting it up for the rest of us to see.

[Ernie]

Victor,
You know I don’t do the lineage flag waving stuff, not my style leave that for the drones =)

But I have and still do a ton of research on the training methods of the WSL guys and cross reference it to what I’m learning, then see if it produces the results that are effective in a pressure environment,

So far bro the man was on to something real nice!
The more I coach people and seeing how fast they get it and can apply it the more impressed I am, one thing is if I can do it, I’m a blend of physical conditioning, natural ability and a very sick work ethic.

But to see regular cats pick it up after a few months and go in and bang with the stuff is nice.

Now I have been taught that the body mechanics and power, mental intent and strategy of the weapons is directly connected to everything I do in wing chun, either by specific body mechanic or expression of the idea.

For example once you teach a person pole and get them doing drills and sparring the weapon the feel very heavy and connected, stable in motion or just sitting.
This feeling can then and should transfer into there empty hands, the ability to send power all in one action [as in the focus of the pole] should translate into there punching / po pai/ pushing / pulling and stepping in footwork

The blades change things since you do not need to be grounded or as much body mechanic to slash or stab, you need to clear your body out of the way while you angle and attack [3 actions in 1 motion]

This is were you get perpetual alive constant motion, no longer a fixed target or posture, yet still mentally and physically centered and balanced able to move and adjust on the fly while you relate to the target

Problems happen when people do the [forms] dead and with fixed patterns and rhythm. The kill the flow.

But when your goal to terminate the person in front of you is primary, then the forms are things that happen on the way to support the goal not the goal itself

Since there is no fixed position in a fight [especially a weapons fight] the flow and relation with a clear goal is key



There are drills that draw this out, and then freestyle sessions to dial in the timing, and my research continues =)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thanks, Kevin...I'm going to look for the book.

[sihing]

did WSL ever...make any comments/assessments on his fighting younger brother William Cheung's skill as a fighter and/or Wing Chun practitioner and visa versa regarding William Cheung making comments on his older fighting kung fu brother. Just curious as I haven't really heard any yet, just that Bruce asked Wong if he though he could beat Cheung yet, before Bruce died, and that Moy Yat considered Cheung the top fighter of the 3.

Those pictures of the two of them fooling around (its on Ernie's site also) semi sparring per say. Was that real or just foolin, as in some of the pic's there are smiles by either of them?

I have the Science of Infighting video, and found similarities between some of the TWC stuff and Wong's Wing Chun, the footwork in WSL was interesting also.

James

[Ernie]

Originally posted by sihing
did WSL ever...make any comments/assessments on his fighting younger brother William Cheung's skill as a fighter and/or Wing Chun practitioner and visa versa regarding William Cheung making comments on his older fighting kung fu brother. Just curious as I haven't really heard any yet, just that Bruce asked Wong if he though he could beat Cheung yet, before Bruce died, and that Moy Yat considered Cheung the top fighter of the 3.

Those pictures of the two of them fooling around (its on Ernie's site also) semi sparring per say. Was that real or just foolin, as in some of the pic's there are smiles by either of them?

I have the Science of Infighting video, and found similarities between some of the TWC stuff and Wong's Wing Chun, the footwork in WSL was interesting also.

James

ah the can your daddy beat up my daddy sand box stuff hmmm
no comment :rolleyes:

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ernie
ah the can your daddy beat up my daddy sand box stuff hmmm
no comment :rolleyes:

You assume too much too quickly.:)

Pure curiosity, that's all. I was always interested in the Cheung/Lee relationship since there was a great respect by Bruce towards Cheung, as is also true of Bruce towards Wong. But haven't heard what the two of them thought of one another. If I were to speculate, just for the fact that Cheung was larger and lets say "equally skilled" the advantage would logically have to go towards him, but really who knows unless you have seen the two of them in their primes, one of those things you think about for a couple of seconds once every couple of years.

James

[Kevin Bell]

To be honest i've had the pleasure of training with WSL Instructors like Clive Potter in the UK, David Peterson when he visits and i gotta say i consider myself one lucky #######. Just need to get my act together cause there is a few more i need to cross off on my wish list. Have to get my arse over to LA at some point Ernie so we can hook up and also have the pleasure of meeting Gary.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by sihing
You assume too much too quickly.:)

Pure curiosity, that's all. I was always interested in the Cheung/Lee relationship since there was a great respect by Bruce towards Cheung, as is also true of Bruce towards Wong. But haven't heard what the two of them thought of one another. If I were to speculate, just for the fact that Cheung was larger and lets say "equally skilled" the advantage would logically have to go towards him, but really who knows unless you have seen the two of them in their primes, one of those things you think about for a couple of seconds once every couple of years.

James

no worries :D

We can look at it from a more constructive angle
Leave out the individuals and research the methods and engine they passed on and used

One of my privates is a TWC guy who is very interested in checking out different aspects of wing chun so he asked me to take him through the WSL / GL engine, mind you even between WSL and Sifu Lam there are have been additions and subtractions but the basic engine is the same, the development method is were the differences stand out.

I have also had some hands on with TWC guys in there sifu testing level [not sure what that means =)]
And we have shared and compared

So my research though far from complete [since I have not trained in TWC] so making a definitive statement would be hollow and dis respectful.

From what I have felt and observed they two methods are almost polar opposites in engine and method. This is neither good nor bad just different choices in application.

I think it is very important to be open minded and study [living] applications of the wing Chun engine

I have had the pleasure of working with Andrew and Dhira and they have shown me the WT engine as well as a few live in sifu from Germany that spent 3 months at Sifu Lams last year

Allot of time with Hawkins and his method
Limited time with Kenneth Chung [a guy is now training at Sifu Lams] would like more research on this method as well

A brief look at Robert Chu's method by way a David M. students

Fongs method by way of my si hing that spent a considerable amount of time in that system

Randy Williams’s method a ten-year student is training with us for his research

Grado's a guy is training with us since he moved from New York

Victor Kan a 10-year guy is also training with us since moving out this way

And all the major WSL sifu, Clive, Peterson, Phillip, Barry, Nino Etc........

Now all these guys can make their system work

Each application method dictates the engine and body style, there are many pieces to the wing Chun puzzle. If you learn to embrace each other and learn instead of pointing fingers and saying this guy is wrong.
You could pick up a much clearer view of what wing Chun is and can be. Don’t just jump to conclusions based on knee jerk reactions [many exist by way of brain washing and marketing schemes]

I’m writing all this for a few reasons one since it's a WSL thread and the anniversary of his death is upon us.
Yes I will show my appreciation and respect to my sifu's sifu [but don't tell anyone my image would be ruined]

And second to try and bring us back on track with wing Chun conversations

The path to fighting and applying can be reaching in progressive training steps, training based on the system we chose to let guide our path

So instead of pointing to the end result, lets go one step at a time towards the end result

As long as you have a clear goal, if it is to fight, or to be a chi sau guy or to be a forms guy or just to be a link in the wing Chun chain and pass on what has been passed to you. It’s all good

CKing ---- my pleasure

Kev - once i buy my house , my house is your house buddy

[Shadowboxer]

Ernie,

Sounds like material for many great new threads!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Putting it all together is the key.

The more pieces you have to the puzzle - the more you become the eagle flying overhead surveying the whole landscape and knowing when, where, and how to swoop down for a successful attack.

And you can also discriminate much better between what works (for you) and what doesn't...and sometimes you might find out about what really doesn't work at all - no matter who tries it.

My 8 years with Moy Yat were invaluable, for example, because I learned quite a bit about fighting straight down the middle - and occasionally coming from a flank - but always basically just attacking-the-center...whereas the emphasis with William Cheung's TWC approach is to always work for the blindside - and therefore working to gain the opponent's flank - whether you're on the inside or the outside...which requires much more footwork and facing strategies - along with a centraline principle - in addition to the centerline.

(And in truth, William Cheung understands and is an expert in the first method, and has demonstrated and taught it's finer points from time-to-time)...but the emphasis is on the second approach because such positioning does give a slight advantage...

But you have to know both methods if you want to see and work "the whole field"...since you don't always have a choice as to how the fight will develop.

(Also got to do chi sao with Victor Kan and Mak Po during my Moy Yat years...and they both brought a slightly different emphasis to their Wing Chun than Moy Yat did - though both also emphasized the always attack-the-center approach).


NOW TAKING THIS ONE STEP FURTHER...

It's not just about trying to see and work the whole Wing Chun landscape (which is exclusively a standup striking/kicking game...with a few armlocks and sweeps thrown in)...

but seeing and working the whole landscape CLEARLY also means fighting while in the standing clinch and grappling on the ground.

Ah...but I digress.


Back to the STREET/REALITY FIGHTING forum.

[sihing]

Good posts by everyone I must say. That's the real beauty of this forum is the fact that we can try to understand one another better. One has to have a faith in what they do and believe it is of good quality, if not then why do it. This should be discovered early in the training/learning and adjusted accordingly. If that means leaving the place you are learning then fine.

Ernie seems to have a advantage over lots of us as he has exposure and access to many different variations of Wing Chun. In out school we only have a few previous students of the art, and the quality of the lineage was not that good from what I understand. Besides our own school here, there are only a few other WC schools present in Calgary, Greco Wong is here but doesn't teach as much, and there's a Moy Yat school here also, and I student here says he met a Chinese man at work that claims to have learned from Yip Man through private lessons back in the 60's but this guy isn't teaching. I've heard nothing of these schools good or bad, and each method has its value and is effective for what they do. The idea is never to compare arts or belittle someone for what they are doing.

As for Cheung and Wong, I just find these things interesting and wondered what the two thought of each other, maybe this is not the place to ask such a question?

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Ernie seems to have a advantage over lots of us as he has exposure and access to many different variations of Wing Chun." (James)


SPEAK for yourself...I'm gonna kick Ernie's butt when I see him.

[sihing]

The advantage was only in reference to his ability to understand all WC a bit more clearly, not in relation to one's combat effectiveness. I should have replaced the word "advantage" and put in privledge.

James

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Ernie seems to have a advantage over lots of us as he has exposure and access to many different variations of Wing Chun." (James)


SPEAK for yourself...I'm gonna kick Ernie's butt when I see him.

You might have to wait a while Vic

Doc says possible Distal Biceps Rupture
MRI at the end of the month

If I need to get sliced [recommended] 6 months to recover

But I still got one good arm: D

As for my exposure it's been building I categorize the approach and engine dictated by the approach

Into range and structure to support favored range

Long triangle = distance is greater so footwork/speed and more wrist type connection/feeling more of a TWC but also WT range
One uses the fixed root with hands like reeds the other mobile base with hands like knives both can operate well

Medium triangle = most other Yip man based approaches,

Short triangle = body to body WU sau range, standing grappling, a little of this seems to be spread in most systems how they get there varies

Each range or preferred distance has a supportive engine and structure that fits that engine

Once you start to see wing chun [body mechanic in general] this way, you are free from lineage or style confines
The pressure is off for you to make it all fit your specific approach

Now we can be free to analyze and experiment. As a coach I will have to have a file cabinet in my mind of metaphors and training methods to help many different body types and mindsets, instead of attempting to be a copy machine I can dig in and pull methods to help them get what fits them,
To do this I have to research and listen and learn to everything I can from wing Chun to any other skill development process
Keeps me humble open and growing always as a student if you know what I mean, and many of you have done a lot to fill my file cabinet

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Doc says possible Distal Biceps Rupture
MRI at the end of the month.

If I need to get sliced [recommended] 6 months to recover." (Ernie)


SORRY to hear that, man.

Got to try and change your lifestyle for awhile (I know it's tough)...

had double-hernia surgery back in 1996.

Longest year of my martial arts life. (The recovery time).

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Doc says possible Distal Biceps Rupture
MRI at the end of the month.

If I need to get sliced [recommended] 6 months to recover." (Ernie)


SORRY to hear that, man.

Got to try and change your lifestyle for awhile (I know it's tough)...

had double-hernia surgery back in 1996.

Longest year of my martial arts life. (The recovery time).

thanks man ,
puts a dent on the positive flow i have been having this year , but like any obstruction just go around it and keep moving :D

[couch]

We've got a few in Calgary, like: Greco Wong's, I think there's another Moy Yat family, TWC, Ho Kam Ming school with Anthony Ng, Simon Siu at the Chinese Cultural Centre is teaching Wing Chun, Randy Klyne with EBMAS, and I'm sure there are underground cats that we don't know about.

We're quite lucky here for the diversity.

Sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik

[Vio]

Going off topic but,
did WSL lose to one of Ip Sui's students.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Vio
Going off topic but,
did WSL lose to one of Ip Sui's students.

I'm sure a history buff could answer this better then me
but WSl had a few loses some before wing chun and some after

every great fighter has loses , thats what makes them great they come back and keep moving forward


i think your referring to that mantis story , a lot of stories came out after WSL passed away , just like when bruce passed all kinds of will i could beat him stories popped out
:cool:

[sihing]

Originally posted by couch
We've got a few in Calgary, like: Greco Wong's, I think there's another Moy Yat family, TWC, Ho Kam Ming school with Anthony Ng, Simon Siu at the Chinese Cultural Centre is teaching Wing Chun, Randy Klyne with EBMAS, and I'm sure there are underground cats that we don't know about.

We're quite lucky here for the diversity.

Sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik

Diversity is great if the quality is good.

Funny thing Simon Siu at the cultural center here, I wonder why we do all the demo's there at the Cultural Center if he's already teaching WC at the center? From what I have heard it is half breed WC, his primary style is Choy Lay Fut. Didn't know about the Ho Kam Ming school here, so that is news to me, and Randy Klyne is a ex student of ours and still isn't a Sifu level yet after almost 10yrs with Emin, so not sure what the story is there, but the school keeps on moving around from place to place so its hard to keep track of his progress, but he still calls my Sifu Sifu as they meet up a year and half ago.

Anyone can claim anything and say this and that as to their individual credentials, but quality shines through. The old adage, "Quality over quantity" is relevant here.

As for TWC, who's teaching that?


James

[couch]

Originally posted by sihing
Diversity is great if the quality is good.

Funny thing Simon Siu at the cultural center here, I wonder why we do all the demo's there at the Cultural Center if he's already teaching WC at the center? From what I have heard it is half breed WC, his primary style is Choy Lay Fut. Didn't know about the Ho Kam Ming school here, so that is news to me, and Randy Klyne is a ex student of ours and still isn't a Sifu level yet after almost 10yrs with Emin, so not sure what the story is there, but the school keeps on moving around from place to place so its hard to keep track of his progress, but he still calls my Sifu Sifu as they meet up a year and half ago.

Anyone can claim anything and say this and that as to their individual credentials, but quality shines through. The old adage, "Quality over quantity" is relevant here.

As for TWC, who's teaching that?


James

Haha. You're teaching TWC. Your lineage comes from William Cheung. Although Lewadny changed a bunch of stuff. Funny guy.

Have you trained under/visited any other schools in Calgary? Greco Wong might not be teaching as much, but his senior Cam is running things very smoothly over there.

Have you ever been to an EBMAS class here in Calgary? It's really good and Randy is very nice person to talk to and get a Wing Chun perspective from. He's teaching out of Balance Fitness http://www.balancefitness.ca/Location.htm which is a fitness gym that he started and sold to another owner. I think that he's done well for himself despite being dragged along by his previous kwoon for so many years...

...I wonder why you wonder about Simon Siu at the Cultural Centre. Why don't you wonder about the Bak Mei school's Sifu who knows Wing Chun, is 1 block away from the Cultural Centre and you're the ones doing the demos. You're a commercial school. The more publicity, the better. This is not always the case with some schools. Just wanted to point this out. Some schools don't want the limelight.

Sincerely,
Kenton/Couch

[sihing]

Originally posted by couch
Haha. You're teaching TWC. Your lineage comes from William Cheung. Although Lewadny changed a bunch of stuff. Funny guy.

Have you trained under/visited any other schools in Calgary? Greco Wong might not be teaching as much, but his senior Cam is running things very smoothly over there.

Have you ever been to an EBMAS class here in Calgary? It's really good and Randy is very nice person to talk to and get a Wing Chun perspective from. He's teaching out of Balance Fitness http://www.balancefitness.ca/Location.htm which is a fitness gym that he started and sold to another owner. I think that he's done well for himself despite being dragged along by his previous kwoon for so many years...

...I wonder why you wonder about Simon Siu at the Cultural Centre. Why don't you wonder about the Bak Mei school's Sifu who knows Wing Chun, is 1 block away from the Cultural Centre and you're the ones doing the demos. You're a commercial school. The more publicity, the better. This is not always the case with some schools. Just wanted to point this out. Some schools don't want the limelight.

Sincerely,
Kenton/Couch

Oh that's funny about Randy Klyne. Last year his website from Emin's website brought us to Balance Fitness, but not anymore, and about Randy's Embas business, about two years ago at the gym I work out of (not Balance Fitness), to which at that time Randy was running his full time Embas school, he had only 8 students to which I use to watch some of the classes since I was there anyways working out. I've met Randy personally and have nothing against him or what he is doing. From what I remember of him he was a nice guy and very respectfull, and since he still calls Sifu Sifu I guess he still has great respect for his teacher. Everybody has to do what they have to do, but from what I understand of the situation, the whole reason why he left was to progress his WC so that he could teach it professionally and to a profit. 8 students is not a profitable school.

As for Greco, he wasn't too impressed with things when Sifu arrived in Calgary in 89'. Word got back to Greco that if he had a problem he could come by for a visit. Since then we haven't heard back. So much for Greco....Sifu's never had a problem with other Martial Artist teaching what they teach, but the reverse is not always the same. It's a free enterprise system here in Canada, so competition is healthy.


As for the Bak Mei school, I just had a intro two weeks ago with student from one of the schools that teach Bak Mei in the city. You see, for all those concerned, the are two Bak Mei schools in Calgary, one taught by the Father and one by the Son, both do not talk to each other anymore. The student that came in was very interested in what we have to offer.

It's not about "lime light", it about quality product. Sooner or later the quality shines through and people recognize it. Just because the popularity and status of a school is higher than the rest doesn't mean the quality is low. During the month of November 04' we had 190+ 1 hour classes in our school, 120hrs of those were regularly scheduled classes, where did the extra 70+hrs come from? Personal lessons and grading lessons, that's where. We ensure that each student at what ever level learns what they need to according to the level that they are at. End of story.

As for TWC, it's part of the cirriculum but not the whole.

James

[couch]

What else does your curriculum entail other than TWC?

Why did Lewadny feel like modifying what he learned from William Cheung? If William Cheung said "In my career I have had two exceptional students and they both have the same initials. One is no longer with us and one is standing right over there. I only wish that when I was a student I had a teacher like him." Why would his top student change what he learned.

No matter who said what or did what...you have never touched hands with Greco's students. Or Anthony Ng's students, Simon's students or the Bak Mei students...

...As for the Bak Mei school, whenever they do a demo or are working on something for the benifit of Bak Mei, the two clubs get together. The son wanted to modify some of his father's teachings and left. End of story.

You are NOT the only quality school out there. You can post how many hours that you are open, etc, etc. There are so many martial art schools out there and have lots of quality to give a student.

[sihing]

Originally posted by couch
What else does your curriculum entail other than TWC?

Why did Lewadny feel like modifying what he learned from William Cheung? If William Cheung said "In my career I have had two exceptional students and they both have the same initials. One is no longer with us and one is standing right over there. I only wish that when I was a student I had a teacher like him." Why would his top student change what he learned.

No matter who said what or did what...you have never touched hands with Greco's students. Or Anthony Ng's students, Simon's students or the Bak Mei students...

...As for the Bak Mei school, whenever they do a demo or are working on something for the benifit of Bak Mei, the two clubs get together. The son wanted to modify some of his father's teachings and left. End of story.

You are NOT the only quality school out there. You can post how many hours that you are open, etc, etc. There are so many martial art schools out there and have lots of quality to give a student.

Kenton Quote: "What else does your curriculum entail other than TWC?"

Too much to mention. Ground fighting, Chin-na to a higher degree, different Chi-sao drills and excersises, Kicking technique, Chi Kung methods different from TWC/Cheung methods, just to name a few. The whole cirriculum is different with emphasize on
being a complete Martial Artist, not just a WC specialist.

Sifu didn't modify anything. IMO he brought it back to what it originally was? For example, in most WC systems there is the immovable elbow concept. Then why in TWC does William Cheung collapse the elbow in his SLT form? This was adjusted way back in 89' in our kwoon. Without get to much into things that are know one's business, the answer to your question "Why did he change things" is because he saw the need to. You have to understand that although Sifu learned the TWC from William Cheung, he was still a master in his own right in other MA systems, with 23yrs of experience and hard training behind him. When he went to Australia he did so with an open mind and became the student again. After he came back he adjusted what he learned to fit his own logic. No one's forcing anyone to believe or follow his methods or ways, it’s a free country. I haven't heard any complaints so far. As a matter of fact a previous student just came back to the school after more than a 10 yr absence and said he constantly thought about the WC he learned from Sifu and was disappointed in himself for not continuing in his studies of WC with us as he understands more than ever that the quality and effectiveness of what Sifu teaches is very high.

As for touching hands with all the above mentioned, I may not have personally, so their skills may or may not be good, I don't know or care. I'm not concerned nor threatened by anyone on that list nor do I dwell on them, as I have more important things to think about.


James

[kung fu fighter]

Hi Couch,
I was just wondering what linage of wing chun does Anthony Ng teach. Is it koo lo/ pin sun wing chun?

kung fu fighter

[couch]

Originally posted by kung fu fighter
Hi Couch,
I was just wondering what linage of wing chun does Anthony Ng teach. Is it koo lo/ pin sun wing chun?

kung fu fighter

Ho Kam Ming and I can't remember from whomelse he learned from.

Sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik

[Vajramusti]

Anthony Ng? I have not seen his name in HKM circles before.
But could be. There is a different Ng who was indeed a student of Master Ho.
Therewas a student of master Ho who faithfully travelled from Thunder Bay for instruction- but I dont remember his name.
As I discussed with james before--- there was no wc that I knew of in Calgary when I visited there around 1990 or thereabouts- sure seems busy now.
Also I thought that Greco Wong had moved to the Vancouver area... but people move around. Ray Van R I think went the other way from calgary to the west.
Lots of changes. Then with the handover of HK and macao
more influx of good kung fu into Canada- it appears.

joy c

[Vajramusti]

Anthony Ng? I have not seen his name in HKM circles before.
But could be. There is a different Ng who was indeed a student of Master Ho.
Therewas a student of master Ho who faithfully travelled from Thunder Bay for instruction- but I dont remember his name.
As I discussed with james before--- there was no wc that I knew of in Calgary when I visited there around 1990 or thereabouts- sure seems busy now.
Also I thought that Greco Wong had moved to the Vancouver area... but people move around. Ray Van R I think went the other way from calgary to the west.
Lots of changes. Then with the handover of HK and macao
more influx of good kung fu into Canad- it appears.

joy c

[sihing]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Anthony Ng? I have not seen his name in HKM circles before.
But could be. There is a different Ng who was indeed a student of Master Ho.
Therewas a student of master Ho who faithfully travelled from Thunder Bay for instruction- but I dont remember his name.
As I discussed with james before--- there was no wc that I knew of in Calgary when I visited there around 1990 or thereabouts- sure seems busy now.
Also I thought that Greco Wong had moved to the Vancouver area... but people move around. Ray Van R I think went the other way from calgary to the west.
Lots of changes. Then with the handover of HK and macao
more influx of good kung fu into Canad- it appears.

joy c

It's busy in our school that's for sure, not sure about the rest...

James

[couch]

Originally posted by sihing
Diversity is great if the quality is good.

Funny thing Simon Siu at the cultural center here, I wonder why we do all the demo's there at the Cultural Center if he's already teaching WC at the center?

James

FYI. I guess he saves the best for the most important. Last night was Chinatown's Chinese New Year celebration at the Cultural Centre and Simon himself performed with his class for a large crowd. I unfortunately didn't see any other Wing Chun school there last night, other than the Bak Mei school performing.

Hmm.

[Phil Redmond]

Thouht I'd share these.
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/wsl_cheungYM_grave.jpg
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/wsl_cheung.jpg
PR

[RedJunkRebel]

Thanks Phil. WSL sure does have a wide stance in a few of these shots.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by RedJunkRebel
Thanks Phil. WSL sure does have a wide stance in a few of these shots.
He's in motion, that's why.
PR

[sihing]

Originally posted by couch
FYI. I guess he saves the best for the most important. Last night was Chinatown's Chinese New Year celebration at the Cultural Centre and Simon himself performed with his class for a large crowd. I unfortunately didn't see any other Wing Chun school there last night, other than the Bak Mei school performing.

Hmm.

And I guess you were right in there, SUCKING IT ALL IN GOOD ah Kenton, lol. We get to many offers to look at for your information. Next weekend the Chinese community is flying my Sihing and my Sidi up to Grand Praire for their New Years Celebration, to perform a 8 minute demo. They specially asked for us and it's a all expenses paid trip. That same Sidi just finished a demo at a Chinese New Years Celebration earlier on last week.

And by the way next time your in the south area of the city, look for the Calgary Journal, they just did a self defense story on us, due to wide spread reputation and web site information and appearance. So missing one demo at the Cultural Center is not so bad, even if it matters at all..

James

[sihing]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Thouht I'd share these.
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/wsl_cheungYM_grave.jpg
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/wsl_cheung.jpg
PR

So, the photos of Cheung and Wong, were they playing around or really going at it? And was that around the same time in 82' when Cheung showed his TWC forms to his Seniors at the VTAA, and proclaimed his status?

James

[Phil Redmond]

Looks like they were simply playing around. They're smiling. Yes, that was when Sifu went back to HK to show the forms that YM taught him. It has all three forms and the dummy filmed at the VTAA Headquarters. There are moves on the dummy form that weren't taught before. When Keith and I first saw the footage we were shocked at how the dummy form looked back then. It was orignially on 8mm film and even has a kung fu movie like fight scene with Sifu and some guy who attacks him with a BJD. You can probably buy the footage from Keith Mazza in NJ. Just ask him for the "Lost Footage" DVD/VHS. I know that a few of us have copies and I'm not sure if they're for sale but it doesn't hurt to ask if you're interested.
PR

[sihing]

Thanks Phil. I noticed too that they were smiling in a couple of the photos. It would be interesting to know what the two of them thought of one another, I'm sure though there was a mutual respect. Were the two of them ever close?

I believe you advised me before about Keith Mazza possibly selling those tapes, they would be interesting to see, as I'm sort of a collector of things like that and have a interest in it.

James

[Phil Redmond]

Yes, they were very close. WSL is the one who introduced Sifu to Yip Man. Sifu and his brothers were on the same swimming team with WSL. Though many may not like to hear it, it was WSL, Bruce Lee and Wm. Cheung that fought and WC popular. ;)
PR

[sihing]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Yes, they were very close. WSL is the one who introduced Sifu to Yip Man. Sifu and his brothers were on the same swimming team with WSL. Though many may not like to hear it, it was WSL, Bruce Lee and Wm. Cheung that fought and WC popular. ;)
PR

Yes, I remember reading about the stories also. There was a magazine, or a couple of magazine's (Hong Kong) that had Wong Shun Leung's story and William Cheung's story with Bruce Lee. If it wasn't for Wong then William may have never joined the school. Wasn't William's older Brother already in the school before William joined also?

Yes I agree, if the three of them hadn't fought the art might not be as popular as it is today. I find it funny sometimes how some people trust what juniors of these 3 say more so than the three themselves. For example, Hawkins Cheung is supposedly a skilled WC exponent, as he has the time in for sure, 40+yrs so he'd better be good by now, but rather believe him and have a stronger faith than a senior to him that actually went out there and fought much more than him, and more successfully too. You would think that if you represented your school well in real challenges, and were trust worthy and hard working, that Yip would have blessed you with more of his knowledge and skills than others who weren't as worthy of the prize. Even Hawkins acknowledge once that him and Bruce were getting most of their information from the seniors.

James

[sihing]

Oh I forgot to ask, if they were close I wonder what Wong's reaction was when this event in Hong Kong in 82' took place? Excuse me for all the questions, I used to be a PI back in the day, so it's part of my personality now, lol.

James

[Phil Redmond]

I really don't know the answer to that question. I do know that they hung out together when Sifu went back there.
Phil