Feints and Deeks

[red5angel]

Ok, who has used or does use feints in sparring or fighting? How successful are they?
I use taps to mislead an opponent in chi sau at times but I find that the less trained or sensitive someone is the less it seems to be effective. In my limited experience, people on the street tend to sort of just flail at each other, so it seems to me that a feint would be ineffective unless the guys is trained and is looking to see what you are up to.
Also, if you do use them, why not just use the oppurtunity to strike instead of feint?

For example, you see this in the movies a lot, two guys are fighting when one throws a hand out past the others head open palmed and gets the other guys attention on that hand and then takes the oppurtunity to do some damage with the other limbs.

[Arhat of Fury]

Feints ar very important when it comes to battle. They can make the difference between a decent fighter and an intelligent fighter. Feint high,strike low or feint low strike high. Sports use this concept as well, basketball for instance, The offense will draw the defense to one side of the court to leave the one man open on the opposite side to score. Sun Tzu also speaks of this.
Sometimes fighters will have a good guard stance, so we will use feints to open them up and create a strike zone.
I find that I use feints in sparring classmates and forget that the average person will not expect this and will be easier to control.

To sum it up, feints will only make you a better fighter.

AOF

[red5angel]

AOF good reply, how often would you say they work for you? From your reply it sounds like for you it seems to work more against someone who isn't prepared?

[eulerfan]

I use them. Never to get attention on one hand when I'm going to punch with the other. I feign a kick before a punch and vice versa.

[fa_jing]

I'm not a big fan. Combinations yes. Distract them, but by making them deal with something for real, even if your real intended target is the second one. Not something that even if they didn't deal with it, would do nothing. I'm not a big fan of wasted movements.

[Ming Yue]

You have to be crafty and not overuse it. They can be very effective if your opponent has a predictable set of blocks or responses - then you can go beyond opening them up and consciously set them up. I generally won't waste energy on a feint unless I'm setting up for something more complex.

[red5angel]

eulerfan, are you using them to hide the other or are you feinting with one and then going with the other? In wingchun we often hide our kicks with punches and hand movements etc...

fa_jing, that was sort of what I was wondering, is it wasted movement to use feints when it could be used for actual striking?

[apoweyn]

i'll still use feints. but they're definitely different than they used to be. when i was learning taekwondo, a feint would be something like a roundhouse to the gut followed by a roundhouse to the head. that's a lot of movement. if you nail the head, perhaps it's worth it, but...

thing is that feints like that are all well and good as long as the guy overreacts. and as inexperienced sparrers, many of us did so. but if a guy has a good guard (hands up and elbows in tight), they're going to be able to block that first round kick with their elbows and the second with their hands. so that's a big energy expenditure with sod all to show for it.

nowadays, it's little feints for me. just bend the knees suddenly, so it looks like i'm going low, then jab the head. very little time or energy spent. usually does the trick.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

ah the body feint, thats a good one I hadn't thought of offhand. Seems like that is the most wrth while. You aren't really committing anything and it takes little energy.

[Crimson Phoenix]

I like to use them in sparring...however when shi@t gets real, I find them a luxury I try to avoid a bit...

[apoweyn]

well, there's always the argument that they're a waste of energy. or a needless risk. my thinking (based solely on sparring) is that if you can feint without spending energy or jeopardizing your guard, then regardless of the outcome, you've lost nothing. and you stand to gain something.

so my final answer, i suppose, is that whether you use feints is entirely up to you. but if you're going to, try to whittle down the feint to minimize its cost.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

Ah, Ap, as usually you whittle it down to a reasonable and realistic answer. I was hoping I could get away with waving my hands in front of my opponent and screaming HIIIIIIYEAAAAAAHHH!!!!! but apparently that isn't going to work :mad:

as a matter of fact Ap I am getting the distinct impression that if they weren't giving you medicine so they could take that backwards jacket off a few hours a day, your answers wouldn't be so reasonable much less so lucid!!!!

[Arhat of Fury]

I probably should clarify, that I only use small movement feints. Mainly hand feints or I will rotate my hips to act as if a kick is coming. I will generally only use feints to engage initial contact to get inside someones guard, from there its blocks, punches and kiscks. I suppose feints would be very effective once inside the guard(in a toe to toe fashion) but I am not that proficient yet. I am a firm beliver in feints. Imho misdirection is the key to cleaning someones clock. Observing the motto " their never gonna see me coming"

AOF

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by red5angel
eulerfan, are you using them to hide the other or are you feinting with one and then going with the other? In wingchun we often hide our kicks with punches and hand movements etc...


The difference would be that one is before and the other is during? I feint before I actually strike. With kicks, we raise your knees then throw the kick with the bottom of your leg, generally. I just raise my knees. If I see their attention go down, I hit. If not, I put my foot back down again.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by red5angel
Ah, Ap, as usually you whittle it down to a reasonable and realistic answer. I was hoping I could get away with waving my hands in front of my opponent and screaming HIIIIIIYEAAAAAAHHH!!!!! but apparently that isn't going to work :mad:

oh, i don't know. truth be told, i just soiled myself.


as a matter of fact Ap I am getting the distinct impression that if they weren't giving you medicine so they could take that backwards jacket off a few hours a day, your answers wouldn't be so reasonable much less so lucid!!!!

yeah, and if i just resolved to stop eating all the crayons, they'd probably let me start attending 'arts and crafts hour' again. but much like the scorpion stinging the turtle, 'it's my nature.'


stuart b.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"is it wasted movement to use feints when it could be used for actual striking?"

i would say definatley yes. i'm a firm believer that setups/feints are great, but dont just throw something out there thats not going to do anything. why do that? bad. what if you would have got lucky and the feint would have hit them? what if it would have hit and then your second hit doesnt work and then they stab you in the throat and finger fu ck the hole? see that would suck.

i agree with fury that small movements like a twist of the hips could be effective (very effective in sparring) but i still doubt that i personally would use them in a fight.

[yenhoi]

feints and attack by drawing are advanced issues.

feint isent necessarily a movement at all, you just need to convince the opponent enough to react hopefully the way you predicted. It can be a glance, a sleight drop of the shoulder, or just altering a pattern or rhythm you have established, you can also create fake habits, or know your habits, and use them against the dude paying atttention to them. Feinting is really just knowledge of broken rhythm. Feints are also very important when it comes to progressive indirect attacks (basically when you begin an assault on one open line, and the reaction to that - such as your opponent closing that gate, opens another line that you have already pre-planned for.)

Attack by drawing is opening a line for the opponent to hit you, then taking him out when he bites.

By all means, if you CAN hit someone, then do. :eek:

Red5: you will be surprized what a 'newbie' will do when you start doing things like, waving your hands in the air screaming etc.

[red5angel]

"Red5: you will be surprized what a 'newbie' will do when you start doing things like, waving your hands in the air screaming etc"

LOL! There is this guy at the school I am attending now that will do this monkey dance thing when a new guy gets in the ring with him. Ususally, either his opponent starts laughing or locks up in utter confusion and the guy goes in for the kill, otherwise it can back fire and he sometimes finds himself on the ground wondering what happened! Either way it's funny as hell to see!

[MightyB]

I can't say how useful they are on the street, but feints are good for sparring. Especially if the guy's got good skills. I don't use them often, but, when dealing with someone with a solid defense, they will open holes. If you're in the midst of a sparring session and the guy's been blocking and countering everything, you can throw a feint and follow it quickly with the real thing and usually nail 'em. I never feint without following with something real and I make my feints real (if that makes any sense).

[Ming Yue]

wait, a real feint? Isn't that like jumbo shrimp? ;)

is that where you are absolutely not faking that you're gonna fake?

No really, are you saying your feints connect - like a jab (whether foot or hand)? Are they still intended to misdirect and not cause definitive pain themselves?

Me personally, if I see that I can connect, I'm going for it...

-C

[red5angel]

Ming yue, can't remember if I said this earlier but in wingchun while doing chi sau, I sometimes use contact feints, especially if my opponent seems extra sensitive.

[Ming Yue]

I use taps to mislead an opponent in chi sau at times....

when feinting, I usually don't go so far as to make contact with my opponent, but you're right about the difference between working with an experienced fighter vs. inexperienced -- that's what determines how and when to fake em out. You may be able to freak a newbie with a simple twitch, or if you have to make significant contact with a low kick to get someone to drop a hand.

[red5angel]

MY, and what you say makes some sense to me as well. I was just thinking about how one who considers themselves seasoned might respond to no contact feints, probably by not overcommitting right? So then some contact would probably have to exist for you to get a good fighters attention?

[Ming Yue]

Possibly by not overcommitting, but if you're fighting someone very experienced and you twitch, chances are they'll see that you're not committed early enough to grab you or take advantage of your lapse. You'd have to be mighty fast and follow it right up with something serious.

I'm not ultra seasoned, but I have a little pepper goin' on, and If I see somebody twitch a little, I'm not gonna drop my guard, mostly because I'm not afraid to absorb a blow if it means I can get in a better bigger one. :)

If you know your opponent is inexperienced and you really want to win (as opposed to friendly "we're learning" class sparring) I've just stomped my foot and gotten a complete drop of both hands.

[neptunesfall]

i don't use feints. if i throw something out there, it's either going to connect to the target, smash through an attempted block, push your hands out of the way, sucessfully get blocked or redirected or whatever.
i like working in combinations and having each aspect of the combination full power.
being my size (5'7", 150ish lbs), i can't afford to give opponents the time to get any advantage so i constantly use the big guns, so to speak.

[red5angel]

"being my size (5'7", 150ish lbs), "

but your picture is so BIG!!!!

[lotusleaf]

I use feints consistently during sparring. I'd drop a shoulder or feint a front kick by just raising the knee a bit then stepping in to do a straight blast to the head. I'm more proficient in feinting w/ my hands than my legs, but that's a skill I have to work a lot on. My favorite is to fake a jab w/ the lead hand then throwing a ridge hand or hook w/ the same hand to the side of the head. Kicking feints are harder for me as my leg speed isn't that great. Lately I've been working on a front heel kick that leads into a side kick using the forward momentum of the initial kick. This works well around the abdomen area.

As for deeks, not really. The usual sidesteps and slips and weaving of the upper body. I have to get used to ducking w/o raising my arm to block the attack.

[fa_jing]

If your opponent is intimidated (such as myself when I sparred my sifu) then those body twitches will work, otherwise you're just giving him a chance to do whatever it is he does. It's basically passive. On the other hand, I liked to perform combinations of techniques that serve the same purpose as feinting. Say, a double jab, with the emphasis on the second jab. Or sometimes you'll throw something slowly with the intent that your opponent block it, then you take advantage of the opening. My first instructor said there's no feints in Wing Chun, "because everything works." In other words the techniques are designed to succeed, not fail. However, I do employ some of these tactics nowadays. Even Wing Chun lends itself to combos where the emphasis is on the second hit/target, for instance I'm sure that Red5 has trained a low lead punch, the opponent blocks with Gan Sao and you use that energy to bounce off into a whipping punch to the head while checking the opponent's lead arm with your other hand. The point is that if the opponent doesn't make the block, though, you stick them in the first target.