One Inch Punch

[Lews]

Hello all!!!!
First of all I would like to say thanks for all of those who responded to my last email "Nothing New".....It is not what I wanted to hear but it was what I needed to hear.
Second the next question I have in mind I would like for people to keep in mind the following:
-I know and understand everything takes time.
-I know that proper technique/practice is the cornerstone of everything
-Please don't respond with "It depends" or "worry about the proper punching technique and body power first"
-I know the real one inch punch would make you collapse and not fall back
This is for all of the individuals who can correctly execute the one inch punch

1.)How long did it take you
2.)Did you have to work on it or is it a by product of good wing chun
3.)In your opinion is it combat effective
4.)Have you ever used it in combat


thanks in advance and a special thanks goes to one senior student/teacher that said "It only matters who gets there first"

[yuanfen]

Lews asks:(Answers in brackets)
1.)How long did it take you

((Dont remember- some time ago))))

2.)Did you have to work on it or is it a by product of good wing chun

((Good wing chun))

3.)In your opinion is it combat effective

((You betchum))

4.)Have you ever used it in combat

((Define real combat.
PS. You dont even need an inch))))

[Miles Teg]

I dont have one inch power but....
Its been said to me that it develops well naturally. And can be a bi-product of good chi sau because chi saoing develops the springness and connectiveness in your arms and whole body.

It goes back to my old 'anti-no forward pressure campaign' thread though. I dont see how you can develop those things in chi sau if you are not using forward pressure while someone uses forward pressure on you.

[t_niehoff]

Hi Miles,

Miles Teg wrote:

I dont have one inch power but....
Its been said to me that it develops well naturally. And can be a bi-product of good chi sau because chi saoing develops the springness and connectiveness in your arms and whole body. MT

A couple of points. First, and this isn't meant to pick on you personally but I see this all the time -- if you can't do it, it means you don't understand it. And if you don't understand it, it's better IMO not to rely on what others tell you (especially when giving opinions). Second, I don't know what "develops natually" means. If we look at the evidence, the overwhelming majority of WCK practitioners haven't developed "inch power" to any significant degree. IMHO it (inch power) like everything else, needs to be trained specifically, with the focus to develop it. All the chi sao in the world won't develop it (you develop it and then put it to use in your chi sao). TN

It goes back to my old 'anti-no forward pressure campaign' thread though. I dont see how you can develop those things in chi sau if you are not using forward pressure while someone uses forward pressure on you. MT

IMHO pressure is a tool - don't miss the goal by focusing on the tool. Chi sao trains *some* aspects that we use in fighting; it does not train everything (and is certainly not fighting). One aspect of san sao is to develop our ging (it is part of our gung lik - power training in WCK) like "inch power". TN

Terence

[Redd]

Second, I don't know what "develops natually" means.

Then you obviously have not experienced it.


this isn't meant to pick on you personally but I see this all the time -- if you can't do it, it means you don't understand it. And if you don't understand it, it's better IMO not to rely on what others tell you (especially when giving opinions).

[t_niehoff]

Second, I don't know what "develops natually" means. TN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Redd wrote:

Then you obviously have not experienced it. R

No, I haven't. Any skills that I've developed to any appreciable degree -- or experienced in others (who were truly skilled) -- were intentionally achieved with focused, specific training (knowing what it is you're trying to do, then having specific training toward that end). The "develops naturally" school seems to think that by "doing WCK" (LOL!) we will magically develop skills, attributes, and understanding in a myriad of things. As I said in my other post, the overwhelming evidence (in the form of the skills of most practitioners of WCK) proves I'm correct. ;) TN

Terence

[black and blue]

... I don't see how inch power is related to forward pressure in Chi Sau.

The inch power (or less than an inch) that I've seen my Sifu issue, is about creating a very explosive and power hit from next to no distance, whether the attacking hand be a punch, palm etc. (He can also create this with man geng sau, and it would surely result in severe whiplash).

I didn't think I should be using that amount of force (I wouldn't call the power generated in the hit 'pressure') when I was rolling. In fact, I clearly wouldn't use this when rolling, and I think springing forward when a gap appears during Chi Sau has little connection with inch power (other than the fact the two are both moving forward).

But maybe I'm way off the mark and have misunderstood what is being said (it wouldn't be the first time). :)

[TjD]

every hit is a one inch punch.

mine still isnt perfect after 3.5 years. the wooden dummy form helps it the most imho.

[yuanfen]

TJD sez or quotes:
every hit is a one inch punch.
------------------------------------------------------
not true in most wc folks who I have seen,:
perhaps you mean "ought" to be?

It is part of the ideal of some southern hands though some of the best Chen stylists have it---each from their own delivery system- which vary (stances, motion, hands). It is sometimes called short power sometimes.

The southern tong long folks spend a great deal of time on it.
But very good tong long people dont come in bunches- unlike wing chun folks they havent cared about missionary work and expansion of schools.

[TjD]

Originally posted by yuanfen
TJD sez or quotes:
every hit is a one inch punch.
------------------------------------------------------
not true in most wc folks who I have seen,:
perhaps you mean "ought" to be?



well mabye they should practice harder.

i'm not perfect, but i've only been doing this for 3.5 years - not EVERY hit i make has the wing chun power generation behind it, but most do. its something i strive for through chi sau and sparring

[t_niehoff]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by yuanfen
TJD sez or quotes:
every hit is a one inch punch.
------------------------------------------------------
not true in most wc folks who I have seen,:
perhaps you mean "ought" to be?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TJD responds:

well mabye they should practice harder. TJD

IMHO, first - "inch power" can be used by any bridge, not just the punch; second - not every bridge or every punch should always use "inch power". Like everything else, it depends on the circumstances. Sometimes, for example, long power achieves much more. It's not just having it, but knowing when and where it best applies. TN

Terence

[TjD]

Originally posted by t_niehoff


IMHO, first - "inch power" can be used by any bridge, not just the punch; second - not every bridge or every punch should always use "inch power". Like everything else, it depends on the circumstances. Sometimes, for example, long power achieves much more. It's not just having it, but knowing when and where it best applies. TN

Terence

i think inch power and long power in wing chun are the same thing. however, i totally agree that inch power can used with every bridge - but shouldnt nessecarily. on bridges, you can use inch power - aggressive, or not - passive. i've never made a passive strike :D

[t_niehoff]

TJD wrote:

i think inch power and long power in wing chun are the same thing. TJD

"Inch power" *to me* is the ability to generate power -- whole body power -- with our "weapon" from a very short (or no) distance from the target (hence the "one inch punch" where the fist is an inch away from the target). Long power and short power refer to the length of time we're actually in contact with the target and issuing forth (so "inch power" can be long or short power). I realize that many people use "inch power" and "short power" interchangeably - and I mistakenly thought you were too - so sorry for any confusion. TN

however, i totally agree that inch power can used with every bridge - but shouldnt nessecarily. on bridges, you can use inch power - aggressive, or not - passive. i've never made a passive strike. TJD

IMHO WCK's approach (unless we're in emergency mode, and we don't want to be there) is to not in any way be passive; our bridges should thus never be passive (the punch is just a bridge). TN

Terence

[SirenOfAcreLane]

I've had inch power for a number of years, gained mainly from A LOT of wrist conditioning, and hitting 3 section bags at short distances. TO answer your questions:


1.) To learn inch power took a long time, maybe a year or so, but the "1 inch punch" took about 5 minutes to learn. It's mainly for show, imo.
2.)Had to work for it, it's nothing ot do with wing chun, though i have no doubt that good Wing Chun training would help you.
3.)Only if you have time to get in the correct stance. If you were laughing a surprise attack, then yes it is, but if you are being attacked, it doesn''t really help.
4.)Yes, but i used it to push someone, rather than punch them.

[t_niehoff]

SOAL wrote:

I've had inch power for a number of years, SOAL

What do you mean by "you've had it"? Everyone has it to some degree. Some just use their arm; others use their whole body. The question is the quality of it, the pervasiveness of it, the "instantness" of it, etc. TN

gained mainly from A LOT of wrist conditioning, and hitting 3 section bags at short distances. SOAL

Are you talking about a certain type of punch or the ability to generate whole-body power and exert it from very short to no-distance? TN


TO answer your questions:

1.) To learn inch power took a long time, maybe a year or so, but the "1 inch punch" took about 5 minutes to learn. It's mainly for show, imo.

What I most commonly see when folks tell me that they have "inch power" is that they are using their arms (to punch) with a sudden, explosive contraction (what I gather you're doing from your "wrist conditioning" statement) to generate power. IME, "inch power", like the rest of our power, comes from the body (specifically our center). You should be able to isolate the musculature of arm (including the wrist) from the action and still generate great "inch power". TN

2.)Had to work for it, it's nothing ot do with wing chun, though i have no doubt that good Wing Chun training would help you. SOAL

Since WCK's method is not to exert force until contact, it seems to me that "inch power" is of paramount importance. TN

3.)Only if you have time to get in the correct stance. If you were laughing a surprise attack, then yes it is, but if you are being attacked, it doesn''t really help. SOAL

IMO, the YJKYM (not the "stance" but the training, i.e., the gung lik) is to train us to be able to instantly develop power and exert it instantly in all directions. TN

4.)Yes, but i used it to push someone, rather than punch them. SAOL

I don't think we're talking about the same thing. TN

Terence

[Miles Teg]

t_niehoff

I was just relaying info.
Yes I agree that you probably do have to work at it on its own eg wall bag etc.
I don�ft even know if I have this ability because I haven�ft even tried to develop it specifically yet. However, there is no reason for me to doubt what others have told me, especially when they do have this ability.

Things do develop in chi sau almost magically though. From just doing chi sau I have noticed changes in what I can do that have just crept up on me.
For example:

*The ability to withstand a lot of force while still being able to relax eg some body putting lots of pressure on my bong sau or tan while I keep it there. This means that the connection between my upper arm and forearm has become strong and springy.

*The ability to move people (big friends) back while still relaxing, even if they are putting all their weight and muscle into it. I cant do this to my sifu even though he is smaller. So this means that my alignment and whole body connectedness has become better

As my school is 95% chi sau those skills and those of my seniors can only have been developed through chi sau/SNT.

Why then would it be unreasonable to assume that chi sau is a big part in developing inch power. In chi sau you develop:
*Alignment
*Whole body ones
*Springiness in the limbs
*Twitch
*A natural understanding of the mechanics of your body
*An understanding of what movements are powerful and what aren�ft
*Sensitivity

Isn�ft the above exactly what is required to produce short range power? If those things develop naturally in Chi Sau, then Chi Sau must be a key element in developing inch power.

What part of the above list do you believe you haven�ft personally, or think not possible to develop through chi sau?

[SirenOfAcreLane]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
What do you mean by "you've had it"? Everyone has it to some degree. Some just use their arm; others use their whole body. The question is the quality of it, the pervasiveness of it, the "instantness" of it, etc
Well, i meant "had it" in the sense that i have an effective amount of power at very close range. I wasn't trying to open it up to any level of debate. I have effective inch power, and that is all there is to it. Sorry if that sounds brash.

What I most commonly see when folks tell me that they have "inch power" is that they are using their arms (to punch) with a sudden, explosive contraction (what I gather you're doing from your "wrist conditioning" statement) to generate power. IME, "inch power", like the rest of our power, comes from the body (specifically our center). You should be able to isolate the musculature of arm (including the wrist) from the action and still generate great "inch power"

I really don't understand why you are disecting my posts, because i was answering the topic authors questions.
I judge inch power as the ability to generate power from short distance. For me, inch power is a mixture of correct technique, and internal power, plus muscle power.

Since WCK's method is not to exert force until contact, it seems to me that "inch power" is of paramount importance

uh!!?? What are you talking about? I never said any such thing, and neither did the author.
the author opened the question up. He asked if the person answering it had developed it seperatly, or if it came naturally as a result of Wing Chun training. Well, for ME, thats ME, i developed it seperatly, from different methods.



the YJKYM (not the "stance" but the training, i.e., the gung lik) is to train us to be able to instantly develop power and exert it instantly in all direction
Well, hitting in any direction, instantly, is actually physcially impossible. you need leverage to punchm no matter what. Whether it is a boxing hook, or a centerline punch. It still needs leverage.


I don't think we're talking about the same thing

No do i, because you are disecting my opinions on questions that were left open to the forum. It's a very futile thing to do.
But to answer it anyway, i didn;t striek the person, i used inch power to push him away from me at a close distance

[SirenOfAcreLane]

If my reply seesm a bit rude, i apologise - i didn't intend it to. I'm just a bit confused as to why you would tackle someones opinion.

[S.Teebas]

SirenOfAcreLane says:
the "1 inch punch" took about 5 minutes to learn

The golden child has arrived!! ;)

[black and blue]

SOAL says:


I judge inch power as the ability to generate power from short distance. For me, inch power is a mixture of correct technique, and internal power, plus muscle power.

This sounds like a description pretty much in line with my adled thinking. I've been taught it's gained by focussing power at the last moment in our regular punches, lots of huen sau for strengthening the wrist, work on the dummy and, of course, lots of bag/pad work at short distances.

[t_niehoff]

SOAL wrote:

If my reply seesm a bit rude, i apologise - i didn't intend it to. I'm just a bit confused as to why you would tackle someones opinion.

No problem. From my perspective, I wonder why somebody would join a *discussion* forum and be put off by someone questioning, i.e., wanting to discuss (either agreeing or disagreeing), their opinion. After all, discussion involves a give-and-take. Anyone can give an opinion or state a conclusion -- that in and of itself doesn't render the opinion/conclusion valid (accurate, true). It is by skeptically examining our conclusions that we grow. TN

Going back to the thread for a moment, Bruce Lee told some of his students that Yip Man had the most powerful punch he'd ever seen (and he'd seen quite a few). Sum Nung - God bless him! - would send folks flying across the room with his bong sao (!) and then point to his thin arms to underscore that his ("inch") power didn't depend or come from his arms. Both Yip and Sum were small men. You write that for you "inch power is a mixture of correct technique, and internal power, plus muscle power". I, in contrast, have found that "inch power" is independent of technique (it can be used in any technique), that your term "internal power" is so vague as to be meaningless, and that "muscle power", as Sum and Yip demonstrate, isn't significantly involved in generating "inch power" in WCK; it comes from the body and the arm is just a conduit (not the generator, so there is no need to "develop" its "muscle power"). Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. And I don't doubt that you've developed some power via "muscle power" and "technique." If you're happy with that, then I wish you the best of luck and apologize for wasting your time. TN

Terence

[nvisblfist]

has anyone experienced being hit by a one inch punch? what happened?

has any one ever hit anyone with a one inch punch? what was their reaction?

whether or not you have developed one inch power is found in the answer to those questions

[TjD]

with a good wing chun practicioner, every hit is a one inch punch. i've used them often, and i've gotten hit with them often.

[KenWingJitsu]

"has anyone experienced being hit by a one inch punch? what happened?"

Some guy. Goes by the name of Emin Boztepe. Yeah. What happened? Um......recoiling internal organs.....bright lights...collapsing diapragm. yeah. that's about right. lol.

[yuanfen]

KWJ-sez

Um......recoiling internal organs.....bright lights...collapsing diapragm. yeah. that's about right. lol.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are other kinds of non wc punches that can do that too.
Are you all talking about the same thing?

[jonp]

loah

coincidentally i was hit by an inch palm just yesterday in training - at my request as i have never witnessed one before.

my kungfu brother stood with his palm on my chest - then boom. focussed energy right in the centre of my chest - i stumbled backwards - not due to the strike itself but due to the shock of the power he generated from a static position. the power was turned on and off so quickly - it was mad.

terence is right IMO - the power does not come from the arm - but the body. its a technique that can be used together with a punch or not. im guessing you could use your shoulder to release the same shocking instant power.

just an experience i thought id share

peace
jon

[Daredevil]

Heya folks,

I'm always watching discussion of inch-power and the one inch punch re: WC with interest, considering I have (good) past experience with WT and currently train Baji.

As a note of interest, Baji trains inch power almost exclusively (at least that's where the foundation is built). That is Baji power. Short-range, explosive and utilizing the entire body. There are discussions on that elsewhere.

What I find to be interesting is the approach to the matter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in WC training the one-inch-punch is taught later. Baji takes this as the beginning. Of course, this makes Baji training annoyingly ardous in its own way (nothing ... nothing ... nothing ... an inkling ... nothing ... nothing ... an inkling ... etc ad infinitum). I've trained Baji for just over a year and definately can't say to possess inch-power yet, but at this stage I can say I'm getting there.

As for being hit with inch-power, well yes. That's pretty much during every class. It's impressive and the very thing that brought me to my teacher.

Just to avoid misunderstanding and unnecessary flaming, I'm definately not saying my way is better or anything here. I have great respect for WC (and my WT did wonders to my punching power). I'm just genuinely interested in the various methods of training.

[byond1]

t--when ;you say "if you cant do it, it means that you dont understand it"--- if you are telling me that this is true for you, than i will have to take your word for it. but it doesnt apply to myself nor others ive had discussions and chi sao with. many experianced wc'ers understand what they should be doing for maximum wc...as well as understand what the next level of development is for them and what they will need to train. there are many things that need to be developed for a well rounded wc'er...once you know and understand what you should be doing, you than train to be able to do it. here is an example using sum num. so you terence ,at your level of development just made a statement about sn's inch power. is your inch power as developed as his? if it isnt than you dont understand what he is doing since you cant do it yourself. so how would you ever grow since there are many things you cant do and there for dont understand. but im suggesting because you have a referance point(your current level of development) that you(may or may not..dont know what is up in your noodle..but you should know) understand how to continue to develop to get to the abilitly of duplicating sm's ability. i am at a certain level with fa ging for example...say i can transmit at a 2 inch distance....i have full understanding of what i have to do to refine and develop my ging to be able to decrease my distance to 1 inch. even though i cant do 1 inch i know and understand what is needed to do.and can give a explanation on how to do it mechanicaly..i only need kung fu...simply puting time and energy into it.....
tried to be clear cut...dont think i achieved it....lol...girlfriends in the hospital , so im frazzled....off to the hospital.....
brian

[t_niehoff]

Hey Brian,

byond1 wrote:

--when ;you say "if you cant do it, it means that you dont understand it"--- if you are telling me that this is true for you, than i will have to take your word for it. but it doesnt apply to myself nor others ive had discussions and chi sao with. many experianced wc'ers understand what they should be doing for maximum wc...as well as understand what the next level of development is for them and what they will need to train. there are many things that need to be developed for a well rounded wc'er...once you know and understand what you should be doing, you than train to be able to do it. B1

We all have notions of what we should be doing -- let's say at our next level and even beyond -- but we don't truly understand it (the how, why, when, etc.) or we could do it already. And what we presently do understand is only what we are able to make work. BTW, IME often we think we have "the correct idea" but as we develop ourselves to reach it, we come to find that our idea of what is "correct" has changed. This IMHO is the nature of WCK training: as we acquire a physical understanding, that will change our mental vision; and conversely, as our mental vision begins to change and improve, our physical perception and performance will be altered to suit our mind. This interchange is an integral feature of WCK development IMHO. TN

so you terence ,at your level of development just made a statement about sn's inch power. is your inch power as developed as his? if it isnt than you dont understand what he is doing since you cant do it yourself. so how would you ever grow since there are many things you cant do and there for dont understand. B1

My "inch power" is not as developed as Sum's was (though it's not too bad ;) ), and this tells me that I don't have Sum's understanding (since understanding and ability go hand-in-hand). I develop by training and by being guided by those that can do it -- see above. TN

The issue my statement raises is: how can we learn something from someone that can't do it? And the answer is: we can't. But things aren't so bleak -- we can sometimes learn (find) it ourselves if we train, experiment, think, research, etc. The forms and the drills contain the core of WCK. Much of our learning comes from our own work IMO. TN

i have full understanding of what i have to do to refine and develop my ging to be able to decrease my distance to 1 inch. even though i cant do 1 inch i know and understand what is needed to do.and can give a explanation on how to do it mechanicaly..i only need kung fu...simply puting time and energy into it.....B1

You *think* that you have a "full understanding", but how do you know (if you can't do it)? What if you're wrong? If you start from the position that "I know it all but just need practice" you've foreclosed yourself to developing further understanding; if you start from the position of "I don't know it all, and only know it when I can actually do it" you leave yourself open to growth. TN

Best of luck in your training and in your personal troubles. TN

Terence

[SirenOfAcreLane]

I doubt it's as much to do with "understanding" as it is "fast twitch muscle fibres loaded with the memory of 1000's of punches"

Understanding and ability can often function as seperate entities. I doubt the inventer of the wheel truely "understood" what he was doing. The same way, when i first learned how to do an arm lock, i didn't really understand the principles or mechanics of hyperextension, but i could still break someones arm with it; i just do that maneding it in the opposite direction would cause the ****er to snap.

[S.Teebas]

I doubt it's as much to do with "understanding" as it is "fast twitch muscle fibres loaded with the memory of 1000's of punches"

I think you need to understand somthing in order to refine it.

[SirenOfAcreLane]

Most certainly. But i believe that the understanding should be acheived first, to form a basis for practise.
But then, the opposite is also true. We can form any number of hypothesis when arguing semantics. :)

[Empty Fist]

The one inch power punch is fairly easy to learn but takes some time to implement/apply in a combat situation. I'm learing Tai Chi Chuan Yang Style. My teacher showed my the difference in power between a Karate punch and the one inch/Tai Chi punch. There is a big difference in pwer between the two types of punches. The one inch punch focuses on the following when being executed:

1. Body must be rooted for power.
2.The Dantien is relased and expanded for the execution of the punch. Some practioners may view this as releasing/expanding the waist.
3. You should focus on hitting through your opponent.
4. You should be relaxed when executing the punch for optimum power. Your fist should be relaxed but end in a snap like a whip when executing the punch.

Hope this helps. I'm not an expert in executing the one inch power punch. I'm still working on the mechanics. There is an old Tai Chi Chuan saying. It takes about one year to learn the form but it take about 20 years correct what you have learned.

[byond1]

hi T--thanks...i am hanging in there..doing my best to stay detached from the negativity. as you know i always love conversation on wck...so.....

when you said--"how can we learn from someone who cant do it".....i believe we can....just boiils down to opinion i guess....and perception......is it that some one "can"..they just "dont"---for example....yip chun.......he doesnt fight...he has never fought...so does that mean he cant teach wc(since wc principles can be used to fight)?
i agree that much of the learning comes from our own work---often missed point imo.
i disagree--"be we dont truly understand it( how , why, when) or we would be doing it."----for me at least, no one else, its that i havnt put the time and energy yet. i have been blessed with validation on numerous..numerous occasions in my wc understanding. not trying to be funny ...im being dead serious....many things i learned(in my early wc years) didnt make sence to me..so i changed it...either from experimentation or from encounters with other lineages that have that questioned "answered"...sometimes converrsation with our elders and those who have put more tiime in the system(that have actually developed) can provide the catalyst/bifurcation thats needed for growth...more times then not my "correct idea"--actually worked out to be the "correct idea" for me and my wc.....sorry you havnt had the same luck....but you got a better job than me..lol...
i do keep aware of things needing to evolve and i dont cling to my "correct ideas"...if something turns out to be wrong..i change it... i recently had an eye opener about 6 months ago. i had realization about how twc affected my wc negativly...my stance especially...so i changed it...and have gotten back on the path that i feel is the best...this is what i do....i physically practise as well as study..everyday...history and kuen kit as well as tcm....if i actually trained everything i have learned i would never be able to do anything other than train..lol..so i limit my focus...and perfect fewer things,instead of doing a bunch of things half butted....of cource ive only begun my training....its like when a karate person gets the black belt...its said that there learning has just really begun....that is where i am....everybody is at there own place..... good luck in your training
brian\

[Souljah]

at what point can you actually say " I've mastered the one0inch punch" ? Just curious what it takes


greg

[TjD]

never, because whatever you do - you can always do it better