Not as civil as you think you are?

[red5angel]

I have given this subject a lot of thought since I started my martial training a while back. I have posted once or twice in one form or another on this subject but here is my personal take on it.

Someone, I think it was Willow Sword had a post about a guy in a theater with a cell phone and a confrontation that took place afterwards.
My honest to go take on this is that the guy is a dumb ass, at best, thoughtless and disrespectful at worst, and in either case if he wants to get in my face for it, I don't mind knocking his ass around a little.

I don't consider myself an unecassarily violent person. Some of you have heard my feelings on abusing spouses, children or those weaker then you. But in my opinion if you are asking for it, I don't mind giving it to you.
I have always been this way, a few years back I almost went to jail for chasing this guy around the parking lot of a Perkins because I found out he had hit two of my friends he dated. I didn't go to jail, and it turns out, he wised up and straightened up so I got lucky.
I like to consider myself a civilized human being and like I said, I don't consider myself unnecassarily violent, but it turns out what I consider necessary appears to be much less then most people. For instance, you get in my face because I told you to turn your cell phone off in the theater, I might just give you what I feel you are asking for, a fight. If you were to come to me afterwards and say, hey, that was pretty rude the way you asked me to turn my phone off, I have no problem, I can even apologize. But if your in my face asking if I have a problem, then no, because now you have the problem.
I'm am by no means trying to sound like a tough guy, I get my ass beat daily at my martial arts school and I am pretty aware of my limitations, but sometimes the effects of my actions, especially when pertaining to me, don't necessarily concern me as much as they concern other people.

Now as it pretains to the martial arts, since I started training I have come to feel that because of my training, I have a higher responsibility to reign myself in, because I have the greater potential for causing more damage then before I was training. this I suppose is a good thing, except that I still feel the way I always have, I still feel if you are asking for a beat down, then I don't mind obliging you.

So what do you guys and gals think? Am I a psycho? ;) I would be careful how you answer that question....ok just kidding, be honest....:D




Also, for ewallace and CSN, heh, notice my strategic use of censored words with no ill effects ;) thanks guys :p

[Sharp Phil]

I think there is a difference between being "unnecessarily violent" and being assertive -- standing up for yourself and refusing to take grief needlessly from those who have no call giving it to you.

[ewallace]

I kind of have mixed feelings on this subject. I used to want to teach others a lesson when I felt they could benefit from it. Physically educating someone as to why they should not be a dumb ass anymore is not always effective. Plus there is more of those types than my hands can bare. It's been a very difficult lesson to swallow, especially when driving, but for your health, blood-pressure and stress level, it's best to learn to let those kinds of things go.

Then there is the always possible subject that the skinny little dude that you told to shut up waits about 45 minutes, then creeps up the row of seats behind you in the movie theatre and stabs you in the neck.

In addition, kindness can be a more effective solution, initially. Many years ago I was at a gas station filling up my car. I had the stereo up kind of loud, and some guy (about 40 or so) walks up and says "Would you turn that **** down?" Well my response to him was "**** you sir. Had you asked nicely I would have been more than happy to turn it down. But since you had to be a ***** about it I will turn it up just a bit", and I turned the volume up for his listening pleasure. Had he just asked nicely, I would have turned it down and not thought twice about it.

[red5angel]

Good points EW. I agree with most of them. I am not necessarily looking to educate through pugilation necessarily, especially fixing someones issues so much as willing to step up when one is practically begging me to beat them into the dirt.
I also agree with your kindness theory, it always seems to work fairly well, and in general if someone is using common sense and has just made a mistake in my view, then that is what I tend to use.
But, for example, the kid in the theater. It's pretty much common sense in my view that I don't want to hear you have a conversation over the phone during the movie I just paid 7$ for and came to enjoy. Common sense tells me if it's that important, the phone should be on silent ring and when you recieve your important call you step out of the theater.
Ironically talking to you guys on thsi forum periodically has helped me to develop a better attitude as well.

[yenhoi]

Two words: kick ass often. ;)

I dont remember what I was reading, some historical website about ancient CMA times, bleh. People with martial skills had a special name, they were given it because the other peeps at the time were not always happy about the martial artist's use of force to determine conflicts.

Certainly, no matter why you thought it necessary, starting a fight in a movie theater is bad taste. Firstly, you shouldent be yelling at people in a public movie theater, regardless of your $4 or $7. Secondly, if you decide to take action, then take it, none of this half-assed navy ****. Of course every scenario is different. Yelling at someone in a theater does nothing except possibly create another situtation later.

Personally, in a theatre, if someone answered a cell phone and was talking on it, I would take a seat next to them, and shut off their phone, then sit next to them for the rest of the flick. Most likely this wont go well, he will either start a fight now, in a little bit, or after the movie. If he wasent having a conversation, I dont think a little cell phone annoyance would be enough to cause me to action.

Sometimes people need to be told to shut the **** up. When you decide to do it, dont just be prepared, act.

Now as it pretains to the martial arts, since I started training I have come to feel that because of my training, I have a higher responsibility to reign myself in, because I have the greater potential for causing more damage then before I was training. this I suppose is a good thing, except that I still feel the way I always have, I still feel if you are asking for a beat down, then I don't mind obliging you.

Your martial arts training also makes you completly responsible for the physical conflict. Your training gives you the option of fighting, random ass people can blame: you, their brain chemicals, human tribal response, small ****, and too much or too little sugar.

[GLW]

What you have hit upon is a part of Wu De - Martial Ethics or Chivalry.

In the example given... A jerk taking a cell phone call during a movie.

This is not too different from a person talking during a movie...

Saying "Hey, A$$hole, shut the F*** up " even if said in a whisper is not likely to win friends and influence people.

There ARE ways to say it and be assertive but not confrontational.

"Excuse me, would you please take the cell phone call out of the theater." Is pretty much assertive but not a challenge.

If the person chooses to take it as a challenge, you can rightly say that you asked nicely first.

One of the things you can get from training is a calmness and a desire to avoid confrontations....while still being able to assert yourself.

An example....

While teaching my class in a gym, a member came in and walked through the class to use a mirror and admire himself.

I asked in a quiet tone to leave the room because I had a class going on. He was rude. I repeated the request with a statement that we were working with weapons and I could only insure the safety of those actually in my class. He ignored me...

I stopped the class and instructed everyone to watch him as he primped and puffed his muscles.

He got upset and walked out of the room...leaving the door open and shouting insults in.

I ignored him...He was gone...I got what I wanted.

Then he got a friend and started the same thing....insults...

I had my class switch to staff...two man drills. They were not doing it fast enough or with enough power...So...to benefit my class and the jerk, I did a round with each student driving them back - but controlled. The student got the feel of what to do...a subtle message was sent to the jerk...

They disappeared. I then reported the member to the management for them to do their job.

At no time did I have to threaten him or raise my voice....but I was assertive. Had he come back into the classroom and challenged me or taking aswing at me...he would have had a major problem...but that was a choice he was going to have to make.

All that matters is you get what you want...not that you get your ego taken care of. This is a lesson from Kung Fu training and from Taijiquan.

[red5angel]

yenhoi, I agree strating a fight IN a theater is tasteless and I paid good money, dragging his ass out into the parking lot after however.... ;)

GLW, good points on being nice, but that is the crux of the issue, I have an issue sometimes with wanting to be nice. In this case the theater, the guy was being thoughtless and an ass. I asked him to in the way I saw fit and if the repercussions were he wanted to fight me afterwards, that was ok by me.

I can restrain myself pretty easily, for instance my seasonal job recquires I deal with drunks and beligerants on a regular occasion with no issues.

[GLW]

Red5,

although I CAN sympathize with your annoyance....

Two wrongs can never make a right.

The jerk's behaviour in no ways justifies you acting in a rude manner. This is one of the core ideas in Wu De...your manners and ethics are unaffected by those around you ...and then if you must act, you are acting from a totally justified standpoint.

The most it ever cost you trying to be nice FIRST is a few seconds. The jerk may still act like an a$$...but you gave him the benefit of the doubt. In a cop's eyes, speaking as you did, you would both be at fault and probably both get hauled off. If you had been polite, the jerk had been a jerk, and you had witnesses, you would have been asked questions and walked away... You may have still had to hurt him...but you would not have had people standing in front of a cop telling him how you provoked it too.

Case in point...

I college a female friend of mine was studying in the library. A strange man came and sat at her table. She continued studying...but she noticed something was strange. She looked and noticed the man had himself exposed under the table and was playing with himself.

She COULD have gotten scared, been rude, screamed, or many other things...

Instead, she looked him in the eyes...NO LOWER...and said "I am trying to study. Would you please NOT do that here."

The man got embarrassed (go figure) and then got up and left. She then went and reported him to security.

She came off cool...didn't play into his game...and got him to leave without a scene.

The man WAS arrested a few minutes later.

[red5angel]

GLW, I think in that case the man is going to get arrested anyway, however, I get your point, and I understand it.
That's part of what I am talking about, for some reason many people see it that way, your example, two wrongs never make a right, and I understand that and understand what it means and why it means it, but I don't always feel that way.

For instance, a guy who cuts you off on the freeway. There is a good chance the guy does it all the time. Let's say he pulls into the same parking lot as you later on and you have the oppurtunity to say something. What he did is against the law of course but calling the police doesn't really get anything done, really.
Now kicking his a$$ is not necessarily the "right" answer but then I have to ask why not? what do I have to loose by kicking his butt? A few days in jail maybe a fine of some sort possibly?

[Laughing Cow]

Red5.

Good Topic.

Myself I still got a long way to go before I reach the level I set myself.

Wu De IS important in MA and we should always strive to live by it.

Yes, most MA can most prolly kick butt harder and faster than most other people but that doesn't mean that we should do so.

With great skill and strenght comes great responsibility not to abuse/misuse it.
One reason why I am against a lot of the schools out there that teach SD or Sreet effective MA, they often ignore that aspect of the training.

Personally, I like to ask myself if the guy is worth the hassle and time to really get upset about and if I am willing to face the consequences of upsetting him.

If you are calm and confident within, than you can deal with this issues in the appropriate manner.

Use your MA knowledge and training to apply just the right amount of assertivness and intent to get your goal.

For me MA is not just about fighting, but dealing with ANY challenges that Life throws at me and to deal with it in the correct manner to get the best result for all parties concerned.

Just some thoughts.

[rubthebuddha]

hopefully, a few days in the pokee (or was it BEING the pokee) and a fine is enough motivation to not do it.

i think the most difficult reason for this is that so many of us (myself included) don't want to be the nice guy. we see someone being an *******, and the ever-vigilant button in our brain clicks and all of a sudden we're wearing the cape and cowl of moral man and assuming we're the ones who should do something about it. it's a side-effect of our training. we try to be good people, and we encourage it in others, but the second someone deviates from that perfect behavior, we become the moral police.

honestly, fighting someone over a cell phone call in a theatre is worse than childish. talk to the manager, tell them the dumb**** is ruining the movie for you. every time i've done that (three or four times), i got tickets to view the movie again, and the chump got escorted and tossed out on his keester. a whopping one time, the person knew that it was me who complained to the manager and waited outside the theatre. he tried to pick a fight, and i simply said, if you attack me, you will go to jail for first-degree assault for waiting outside a theatre in order to fight someone instead of leaving like you were instructed to." no mention of the fact that i could have clobbered him. didn't need to. i got to watch the movie, and since that date wound up being a moron, i got to take a cuter girl to that movie the next week with the extra tickets i got from the manager. life is good.

think about how many times you're working with your sifu, and he's bashing you good, and you keep trying to be your best, be relaxed and respond in the best way you can. not easy, but we have to relax, else sifu hits us some more. if we can handle sifu smacking us around and still stay relaxed, hopefully we can stay relaxed when someone's too dense to turn their cell off in a theatre.

going to jail because of something petty like this is kinda lame. even rearranging someone's grill for it is lame. save your knuckles for the boners that really deserve it.

[rubthebuddha]

oh, and i agree with the laughing bugger -- great topic, red. :)

[GLW]

"but I don't always feel that way."

The key word there is FEEL. That is your emotions and your ego talking to you. Understandable...but that is the part of you that you try to conquer through Martial Art Training.


"For instance, a guy who cuts you off on the freeway. There is a good chance the guy does it all the time. Let's say he pulls into the same parking lot as you later on and you have the oppurtunity to say something. What he did is against the law of course but calling the police doesn't really get anything done, really.
Now kicking his a$$ is not necessarily the "right" answer but then I have to ask why not? what do I have to loose by kicking his butt? A few days in jail maybe a fine of some sort possibly?"

What you have to lose...well, lawsuits can be costly. Jail can be a nasty thing. If the bozo has a friend around, it may not go as you expect. If the bozo has a gun or another weapon...it changes suddenly. If the bozo has AIDS..what if you are cut and he is as well...not very likely but the possiblity is there.

What do you have to gain...Well, the only two things I can see are (1) an ego gratification and (2) and opportunity to test out your training.

But, such a thing will not make a difference. You can't give life to those who deserve it. You should be very careful to take it away.

You can't reward everyone for being polite and doing the right thing. Don't be so hasty to play the angel of retribution and punish the bozos.

One key idea that flows throughout all major religions is an idea os cosmic justice. Karma is one word for it. If you believe that there is a reckoning for behaviour, then you really don't have to be there when the bill comes due for a jerk.

Also, the anger is more destructive to you than him. You are letting the external control you. You are placing yourself at risk for the behaviour of another that you don't care about.

Dealing with anger and stress - Qi gong and Taijiquan would help. Also, as you age you hopefully determine that at some point it just is not worth it.

In some ideas, a person has only X number of victories they are given in each life. It is wise to strive to make your victories count for more.

[anerlich]

Red,

GLW is correct.

With the guy who cuts you off on the freeway, you're already assuming you're possibly going to get fined or go to the pokey. As you should - if everyone that got cut off on the street decided to extract "justice" with fists or worse, and this attitude permeated every aspect of life, like someone who tried to jump a queue at McDonalds, civilization would cease to function. Allowing people to settle trivial arguments with violence is not a good idea. Even Dirty Harry (Magnum Force) warned about society getting to the point where people start shooting their neighbours when their dog pi$$es on the lawn.

Your expectation of punishment indicates that at some level you can see that this course of action is the WRONG thing to do.

Defeat is not confined to non-martial artists. As GSW said, you might start it but it might well escalate well beyond your preparation. You might not expect a knife or gunfight when you get in the guy's face, but he might have other ideas. Your eagerness to confront him might make him see you as agressive and belligerent from his POV, and he may feel threatened enough to pull weapons, run you over, whatever.

Conviction for assault might have consequences beyond a few days in jail. You have a criminal record. Depending on jurisdiction, seriousness, etc. this might affect your future in ways you might not have considered. The guy might have some freak anatomical weakness which means your strikes might cause him to collapse, go into a coma, die. How would you (and the DA) feel about that?

Except for LEOs, our rights to redress "crimes" as citizens are quite limited. Our rights to punish "offenders" are zip, that's why we have courts. Institutions aren't perfect, but they're better than the alternative.

At the moment, taking a phone call in a movie theater is not a crime, whether you think it should be or not. You can't arrest or punish anyone for it. No sane judge will accept it as an excuse for violence.

Courtesy and assertiveness are the way to go. Save your fighting skills for when you have NO choice.

Good topic.

[yenhoi]

Wu De IS important in MA and we should always strive to live by it.

bah! live by common sense and your country's laws.


Why do anything in the theatre at all? How can a small annoyance and a few lousy bucks spur you to any sort of action whatsoever. Even by being nice about it, you are starting the ****.

:confused:

[Serpent]

I agree with GLW pretty much. Calmness and wu de are always the best option.

However, it must be remembered that there are people in this world who only understand the language of fists. In which case, I can speak their language quite fluently. ;)

[HuangKaiVun]

That would be admirable, yes.

[tedward]

... my phone doesnt get reception at the movies?


Funnily enough if the person next to me was speaking on the phone i would tell then to shut up and possibly get aggro about it but if someone behind me was constantly kicking my chair looking for a fight, the first thing i would do was tell the manager.

btw the funniest thing i ever saw was when this asian guy thought this group of three drunk english guys were being disrespectful and he jumped in with a flying kick to one of the english guys heads - he got his ass whipped bad.

[red5angel]

Good replies so far guys. Good points GLW and anerlich on the repercussions.
Of course it is common sense you don't pummel those that irritate you, and I have pretty much stuck to that idea. I can't think of a situation that turned to violence that I personally was involved in starting or even creating because of something I felt wasn't worth it necessarily. Of course I guess what is worth it is subjective....
I guess the difference between the human animal and civilized human being is that we notice the difference between what makes us civilized and what crosses the line.
My only issue is sometimes facing that inner animal, and resisting it. The struggle to do what is "right" as compared to do what it is I want to do.

However GLW, I would like to make a comment on the Karma thing, who is to say that my kicking your ass for cutting me off isn't karma coming to bite you in the ass?

Justice is a funny thing because how do we really determine what is fair? Where do we start? I have always wondered what morality stems from, and have come to the tentative determination it is a matter of survival.

What are your views on vigilanteism? Minus the comic book view of some guy wandering the night in a cool outfit and kicking butt..

[yenhoi]

I dont think it is human nature to kill each other over small annoyances. Our instincts are for finding food, shelter, mates, and killing rivals, attackers, or prey. Hunt. :eek:

[yenhoi]

Also, Karma doesnt 'count' if it is a part of your deliberations.

I think "vigilanteism" is neat, but not as easy as the comics and movies say.

Justice: hah.

morality: hah.

I dout either has to do with survival on its most basic levels, and are ideas and mind conditionings that are completly seperated from instinct.

[Qi dup]

This is a great thread Red5!

I have to agree with what has already been said by just about everyone, especially about getting a criminal record. No one really knows what the future brings, but by getting into skrimish aft skirmish with a long record could deffinatly have reprocusions. Let's say you want to run for mayor some day. You can bet your oppenents are going to bring up your criminal record, If it's filled with many counts of violent behavior.

I think wanting to attack someone for cutting you off is a little extreme. That may also be because I'm the calmest happy go lucky driver I know:) But anyway, lets say this person pulls into a parking lot where you are like was mention. This guy gets out and he's a 6'5" 300 Brick **** house. He's huges, he's wareing a shirt that reads, "Guns don't kill people, I kill people." He steps out of his lifted chevy and glares at you. Are you still going to go up and attack this guy? I probably wouldn't. Now lets say this guy gets out and he's your average guy, 175, 5'10" wear a suit and look like a real ****. Do you get out and attack him? If you do, then your really just being a bully, an attacker, a predator. Being martial artists we've probably all seen the affects and 'fears' of fighting. however the average person's mind isn't equiped to deal with these things. If you kick this guys ass it could really be damaging. This person might loose sleep for months, years, who knows? i'd have to ask myself if I really want to 'ruin someones life,' so to speak.

Lik has been mention, if this guy gets out and starts crap with you, then by all means, kick his ass!

[red5angel]

Yenhoi, I think human beings are naturally violent to some degree, so I think that sort of anger comes naturally. It's why when I say someone cut meoff, everyone I am talking to knows pretty much how I feel to some degree or another. the civilized part of us is what overrides us.

As for morals, well, I agree.

Qi dup, if it makes you feel better, it doesn't matter to me what size the guy is. If for some reason I have decided you need an ass whuppin then that is my goal. Size may just determine the amount of force necessary.
That said I am not the sort of guy to kick someone around for cutting me off, although I know my limits, hence the reason stated earlier for my wife doing most of the driving.
I can think of one instance however, where someone cut my wife off and then followed us for a few blocks flashing his lights and screaming and flipping us off. I told my wife to pull over and he did as well. heh, he got back in his car and drove away screaming at us when I got out of the car though......
Dumb move? Probably, the guy could have been some sort of whacko looking to kill someone for any reason, but I am willing to take that chance then be pushed around.

[Qi dup]

Originally posted by red5angel
I can think of one instance however, where someone cut my wife off and then followed us for a few blocks flashing his lights and screaming and flipping us off. I told my wife to pull over and he did as well. heh, he got back in his car and drove away screaming at us when I got out of the car though......
Dumb move? Probably, the guy could have been some sort of whacko looking to kill someone for any reason, but I am willing to take that chance then be pushed around.

I can agree with that. I've actually done the same thing, and the guy just drove off as well. You see, in that instance the person is starting the conflict. If he wants to scrap, good:)

[yenhoi]

Anger does not naturally translate to violence. Im not even sure if anger is natural or manufactured much like justice and morals and revenge rights. I listed many so-called 'natural' occurances of human violence. The primative human might just smash the cell phone on a rock if it didnt like what it sounded like, but not because 'it rang' or because 'it interupted' anything entertaining that the monkey man 'paid for.'

The reason you were annoyed and now you consider that your action may lead to violence, is another conditioning, possibly your sense of 'common sense' or whatever your mother taught you about 'manners.' You werent speaking up because your shelter, food, mate, or life were in any sort of percieved danger. Cell phones are annoying, and people can be rude, but you choose violence.

Not to say there is something wrong with you - I am in the same camp, when it comes to it I will have no reservations when I decide to get violent, and I wont go it half assed, but I wont start a fight in a movie theatre about a cell phone.

I actually keep myself away from crowded areas because I have a habit of just kicking peoples ass for pure enjoyment.

:eek:

[red5angel]

"If he wants to scrap"

And this is where I generally draw the line. But where does that line get drawn then. For instance, in this case, the guy needed and was asking to get beat as far as I was concerned.
I could be even more of a man, and just let it go period. I could even get out of the car and explain politely what the problem was or ask what his problem is and try to resolve the situation peacefully, but that is where the title of this thread comes in. I don't think I am that civilized.....I probably would have just kicked his ass.

Yenhoi, I can't buy that emotion is necessarily something learned, although responses to emotion may be learned. Anger is not manufactured, although what may make me angry, might be. I think being challenged, or having our ego challenged is a natural cause for getting angry and to not get angry is a learned trait ;)

Just so it is clarified, I wouldn't start a fight in a theater either. If the guy wanted to fight right there, I would ask him to follow me outside. In my example the guy was being rude by talking on his cell phone anyway, something common sense should tell him in my opinion, and so in my view he did not deserve respect in exchange. Call me a lesser human being for it, but that is what this discussion is all about right?

[Nevermind]

I can understand you having the urge to punish people for being ignorant. I sometimes struggle with the same urges. But, I have never acted upon them. My philosophy on streetfighting? If my safety (or the safety of a loved one) is not in danger, it ain't worth escalating to a fight. One thing I have struggled with since starting martial arts is being able to take crap off of people knowing the potential damage you can cause them. Trust me, I feel you. I'm sure many of us have had similar struggles with maintaining our composure. I have often asked myself, "Why is it that I always have to be the nice guy? Why do I always have to be the bigger person? Why does this person get away with being an a**hole?" The answer is that you are the one with the training. (in most cases) Therefore, the responsibility is on your shoulders. This is something that anyone who starts martial arts should take into account. Ask yourself this: If I didn't have martial arts training, would I be so quick to teach this jerk a lesson? Remember, just because you can dish out a beatdown, doesn't give you the right to. Even if the guy deserves it. The courts would definitely hold you to a higher standard of responsibility and you should do the same. Usually when I hear someone's phone go off in the theater I simply assume that they forgot to turn it off. Me personally, I switch mine to vibrate while I'm still in the parking lot. But you can't expect everyone to be so thoughtful. If someone in a theater is being loud or obnoxious, simply tell the manager. Nowadays, a lot of theaters have cops on the premises specifically to deal with these *****s. Let them do their job. Save your skills for when your safety is threatened. Thats why martial arts were invented in the first place. Listen to Uncle Ben, dude! "With great power comes great responsibility". Peace! :)

[red5angel]

Nevermind whattup!!!

Good points man. I would have to say personally, that before I started my martial training I thnk I would have been quicker to hand a beating. One of the benefits I recieved from the training itself was some self restraint and for exactly the reasons you have pointed out. I am more capable of dealing with the situation on a physical level but that doesn't make it any more right. In actuality it puts, in my view, more responsibility on me.
Good one the quote with Obi Wan, I am going to have to put that in my sig!!!

[Nevermind]

No, no bro'! Uncle Ben is Peter Parker aka Spider Man's uncle. :D I gotta' say it is an honor to finally be placed in someone's signature.

[red5angel]

hey. ,whoever siad it it is still an awesome quote! :)

[Arhat of Fury]

Remember your responsibility as a martial artist with the law. Also, humbleness and practicing karma will ensure a win in battle!

AOF

[red5angel]

I should step in here and say I don't believe in karma. Not trying to nullify that aspect in any way, just saying it doesn't weigh in when I am considering handing out an ass kicking.

[Arhat of Fury]

Red5, I respect that, It gives me peace of mind.

AOF

[yenhoi]

If karma did weigh in when you made decisions, then you would only be adding false weight.

'Karma' doesnt count if you think about it.

[GLW]

Your personal philosophy/religion/beliefs ALWAYS way in at some level.

If you are hypocritical, they weigh in by the fact that you say you believe one thing but do another or completely disregard your beliefs when you make decisions.

Hypocrisy has three major kinds: One is the hypocrisy of professing one thing and doing another KNOWINGLY.

Another is professing one thing and mistakenly doing another.

The third is professing one thing and doing another out of lack of thought or concern.

Of these three types, the first is the bad one. The second is accidental. The third is cured by thinking before you act.

Similarly, if you make choices from your base beliefs and they are in line with what you say you believe, you have internalized your ethics and belief system. If you have to stop to analyze your beliefs, you have not.

Why is this stated?

Well, most people profess to have SOME religious concepts. Judaisim, Christianity, and Islam all caution against setting oneself up as the judge. At the least, this is for knowledgeable people. At the typical most, this is reserved for god.

Buddhism...well the ideas of Karma come from Buddhism and Hinduism....so....

Therefore, if you subscribe to any of the 5 major religions of the world, you have a disconnect if your beliefs do not influence your behaviour. Also, all of them do not go along with being the judge of others.

If you have no religious or philosophical leanings, then you are dealing with a 'whatever' world.

In the event of ethical or religious beliefs, kicking a$$ is pretty much universally against the beliefs.

If you are dealing with a situation without such beliefs, then don't complain if another person exacts the same toll on you. If you can judge and exact punishment on another, another can do the same to you..

It is a two edged sword.

[red5angel]

Yenhoi, not sure what you mean but it why wouldn't karma weigh in if you believe in it? The assumption is that by gaining bad karma by handling the situation incorrectly, you will feel the backlash at some point as karma tries to balance itself back out.

"In the event of ethical or religious beliefs, kicking a$$ is pretty much universally against the beliefs."

Why do you guys and gals think this is? Is it a matter of survival?

[Oso]

r5a: great topic

I've got more to say about this one but need to get to class

for now, though:

Is it me or are there just more punks out there who just seem to
be jumping at any opportunity to get into a fight with someone
else? And, if one of them happens to make the mistake of picking
the wrong person to mouth off at (say...one of us highly trained
individuals) then that's just a lesson waiting to be learned on
their part. i.e. you never know who you are talking to so respect
should be equally given.

All religions/philosophies have one thing in commen and that is
the "Golden Rule" of treating others as you would like to be
treated.

and, in the words of Henry Rollins: "Why should I have to take
crap from someone who can't lift as much as I can"
(that maybe be slightly misquoted but you get the point)

but, to reflect our responsibility as martial artists I do believe this:

Because We Can, We Shouldn't.

I say that to myself every time a situation comes up where the instinct to just pop them one is overwhelming.

matt

[red5angel]

Oso, we have a few of those individuals you are talking about around here. The high school near us seems to be full of young punks who want to talk tough but don't want to back it up. I find a little eye contact and a calm demeanor usually makes them go away...however, if one ever wants to step up, I guess I don't mind throwing down, they are asking for it after all.

[Arhat of Fury]

There is a difference between bravery and courage.
Courage means you have the knowledge to understand the situation.

GLW, nice post- I beleive thinking before you act or re-act for that matter is very important. It is also something I didnt grasp until I got a little older/maturer.

AOF

[yenhoi]

eye contact.... oh my!

....because red5, if you do something for good karma then you dont really get good karma, you actually end up getting a healthy dose of bad karma. Same thing if you do something to avoid bad karma, well then, thats what you get bad karma. So it doesnt work to be going around judging things by their karma value. 'Just go', be good, all the time - thats karma.

:rolleyes:

[Oso]

I think, to a point, that the majority of mankind's attempts to
become better beings is letting an increasingly significant
percentage of those who are not trying grow become more
'evil' (for lack of a better word).

The balance will always be maintained. Since I don't think the
entire human race will ever reach equilibrium as individuals there
will be people doing bad things and consequently there will
need to be poeple doing good things. Unfortunately bad people
doing bad things ****es off the good people doing good things
that are ****ing off the bad people.

Karma is just another way to look at the balance being
maintained.

Looked at objectively, who's to say 'good' is right and 'evil' is
wrong.


" 'Good' is arbitrary. What was good 500 years ago was stoning
people to death. That's 'not good' now. But, 500 years from now
it will be different"
--my girlfriend just now as I discuss this subject with her.

True Story:

My senior year in high school a freshman or sophemore ran into
me while I was sitting on the floor in the hall. The force of the
impact and a few other details told me it was not completely
unintentional. Being on the ground already I grabbed his leg
and had him on his back squalling with a knee bar. Since this
gave me time to reflect on things I realized that I would be
graduating in a couple of months and it would not be worth it.
So, I let him go and stood up to face down his buddies until they
walked off.

3 years later, after being expelled from school, this guy raped and
killed a girl.

Should I have maimed him and maybe caused enough of a ripple
in his life that he may not have killed that girl? Was my destiny
to take the punishment for that maiming so that someone else
could live? Who knows? I don't. I did what was prudent to me
at the time. Which was NOT busting this guys leg although
I surely thought he deserved it.

Karma, Destiny and Fate all tie into how living our lives affect the
world around us. All the world's religions claim to be searching
for enlightenment of one sort or the other that tells them exactly
what they should do in their lives. If any of them were absolutely
correct then we would have all surely seen the light by now.

If everyone was all goody goody then we would just be bored as
hell. It's the differences that make life worth living.


I have made several transitions in my attitude towards reacting
to the *******s of the world in the last 20 years. First it was:
"Hell, yeah! I can kick some ass now. Just let someone cross me."

then it was a gentler, nobler approach where I thought I was a
bigger person than them.

Now it's pretty much: "I'm not going to let anyone interfere with
my persuit of happiness and joy"

mitigated by: "Can I get away with it?"

ok, someone else can have the box now.............

peace and goodnight

[Nevermind]

One thing we have to consider is that most of these "punks" we are referring to are really insecure with themselves. Insecure people can be very dangerous. They aren't able to take an ass whippin' because in their mind you have made them less than a man. This is very dangerous. These are the people who will come back looking for you with a gun or a mob of people with weapons. They don't care about a fair fight. They want revenge, plain and simple. Be careful who you chose to "teach a lesson".

I'll give you an example. In Milwaukee, there was this 14 year old kid who threw something at this 36 year old man's house and broke his window. The man got so ****ed he found the kid and punched him dead in the mouth. This kid gathered about 20 of his friends. Some of them as young as 10 years old. They hunted the man down and beat him to death with shovels, 2x4's, you name it. This was all over the news so you guys may have heard about this. The man was wrong for hitting the kid. I understand he felt the need to teach the kid a lesson but you just don't go around punching kids just because they deserve it. If the guy would have just called the police and went to the kid's parents, he would still be alive.

[red5angel]

Yenhoi, I understand the reasoning behind doing so called good things - self preservation. I don't wnat to be killed or hurt so it is in my best interest to not only not hurt others but to unite together to form a solid wall of people who do not want to hurt or kill anyone, that wall being 'laws'.

Anyway, I can understand the repercussions, and I can acknowledge that so far they are all good possibilities, but still, sometimes......

[GLW]

The sometimes...that is what an imagination is for. You CAN imagine doing it...then calm down and move on.

Acting on impulse without thought is our animal nature. Giving in to that is to make ourselves less than we can be.

[red5angel]

GLW, not saying I disagree with you, but for the sake of argument why would that make us less then we are?

[Oso]

GLW, not saying I disagree with you, but for the sake of argument why would that make us less then we are?

I don't understand that either.



Matt

[Excession]

Feeling has been mentioned earlier in this thread. How you feel during a confrontation may not be as bad as how you feel after one. Oddly enough I'm not talking about losing the fight, but rather walking away from one*. I've never been in a fight. Probably due to luck and hardwired pacifism rather than an ability to calm or avoid a situation, but in the couple of instances I have been threatened I backed off. I'd always been taught to walk away if I could. That is flawless logic, but I was angry at myself for letting myself get threatened and not retaliating. I had every logical reason for being happy with my behaviour, but my emotional response was to want to tear them apart. Wether I could of is not in doubt :) :) , although highly irrelevant. Even those feelings go away after a while(a long while), but the fact I am alive, happy and without criminal record endures. As for preventing further harm to others by fighting a thug, I can't see how the majority of people so obsessed with their ego or so unbalanced could be converted with a sound beating. More likely the opposite would happen, but then that's pure speculation on my part. It would be interesting to hear informed opinions on that.

In the majority of situations I've been in/come across, which is very few, there has been a clear course of action to follow to difuse the situation, and an equally clear way to make the situation boil over. IMHO choosing to stear clear of a fight means deciding beforehand what you are willing to do and when. Just as being an effective fighter takes practice and forethought, so does being an effective human being.

*Never having been in a fight, I cannot comment on how it feels to have survived one or hammered someone in one, and would never think of 'supposing'.

[red5angel]

Excession, good stuff. Walking away is probably the optimal choice chosen by most. I know I have walked away from way more fights then I got into, but that is the key I think, walking away.
If you choose to walk away before fighting breaks out, and get away with it, you win out of self preservation.
If you fight, then you enter an unknown, and will most likely get hurt.
Is that the key? Is the civilized person intelligently afraid?

[GLW]

Reread... I did NOT say less than we ARE. I said less than we can BE.

This is the distinction between striving to be an evolved person or being just good enough.

Settling for the lowest level you can reach is to not strive to be better.

This is not how I personally would want to live.

However, if you choose that path, be prepared for the results...Expect nothing of yourself and your will generally attain just that.

[Ming Yue]

Is the civilized person intelligently afraid?

I don't think so. Fear is more an inability to act due to uncertainty. As MA, we have the ability to discern the possible outcomes of a fight, so walking away is an informed choice. Delivering a beating is an informed choice too.

[GLW]

"Just as being an effective fighter takes practice and forethought, so does being an effective human being."

SO TRUE

[anerlich]

Fear is more an inability to act due to uncertainty. As MA, we have the ability to discern the possible outcomes of a fight, so walking away is an informed choice. Delivering a beating is an informed choice too.

Other possible outcomes are being on the wrong end of a beatdown or worse. Fighting always has risks, voctory is never certain. An "informed choice" will take that into account. So the uncertainty is always there. Disregard it at your peril.

Courage is overcoming fear, not the absence of fear.

Another form of fear one should strive to overcome is the fear of being perceived as weak should one decline to fight, or get involved in trivial or petty disputes.

[Oso]

this one is for the gaming geeks out there.

r5a, oso = possibly chaotic good.

GLW = Lawful Neutral to Lawful Good

I'm not trivializing the discussion with this comment. Just a
different set of labels.

GLW, my apologies, you did say 'can be' and I totally agree with
that.

We are certainly talking about the inner battle to be what we
want to be and I think most of us want to be good people.
BUT, ****, there are a LOT of bad people out there that need
some discipline and it seems that from some of the points of
views expressed (NOT at all saying they are wrong, I'm not
wise enough to make that call) the further end of the spectrum
doesn't want to deal it out. So, that leaves it to those of us in
the middle to make that call...for better or worse.

But, I could argue that r5a and my views are LG and were just a
little more old testament vs. new testament (or Malcolm X vs. MLK)

matt

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Oso
this one is for the gaming geeks out there.

r5a, oso = possibly chaotic good.

GLW = Lawful Neutral to Lawful Good

I'm not trivializing the discussion with this comment. Just a
different set of labels.


I like to think of myself as chaotic neutral.

[GLW]

I guess to illustrate where I am coming from...

Many years ago I got a degree in Psychology. I then studied Social Work because at the time, it was a faster way to get a Psychotherapist license and hang out a shingle.

I then went to work as a counselor...and did well at it. Until one day I asked myself what made me feel I had a right to interfere in another person's life and what made me think I could direct them any better in living than they could find their own road....

When I couldn't answer that, I went back to school and became an engineer.

In a similar vein, there ARE people out there that definitely deserve to have bad things happen to them. However, In most instances, I can't see how I can have any right to be the one to give it to them. That is not to say that I would not take action if threatened. I tend to say behave like a jerk...but if you attempt to touch me or mine, you will pull back a stump. If it cost me nothing but a little ego to let you go on about your way, fine. If I have to go through you, I will...but that is never my first choice and never a choice I make out of anger or ego.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"The primative human might just smash the cell phone on a rock if it didnt like what it sounded like"

that sounds like me.

why the hell does everyone say ... you cant beat him down if he just cut you off ... he has to endanger your life. the fu cker almost hit you with a large pice of steel (often) moving at high velocity .... how much more direct you want it?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

my girlfriend was watching a movie last night where these two guys and a girl were at a red neck bar in the middle of no where. 3 hicks start messing with the girl and when the one guy trys to say something about it one of the hicks asks if that his bi tch. this escalates and the hick repetedly says is that your bi tch while his two buddies back him up. hearing this, the other friend (one of the friends from saving silverman) runs over and grabs the girl roughly by the arm and screams "BI TCH ... WHAT DID I TELL YOU ABOUT CAUSING TROUBLE" he then tosses her toward the door cursing at her and bout kicking her in the ass the entire way.

i told my girlfriend that it was the best self defence scene i had sene in a movie in a long time.

that said i have short mans syndrome and will not let people push me around for any reason. cept im the type that will wait until your convinced i dont want to fight, kick you in the nuts, and run like hell. if you don't catch me i win.

[Matt Irvin]

I didn't see anyone mention a point that I think is extremely important--what you should be asking yourself isn't whether or not stupid crap like cellphone abuse is worth getting into a fight over, but whether or not it's worth losing your life over. Because let me tell you, getting in someone's face over a little nothing incident like this is a good way to get shot or shanked if you happen to pick the wrong person on the wrong day.

The first part of self-defense is not to put yourself into positions where violence can occur. This cowboy bull**** might make you feel better, but it is not safe, and it is not smart.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"I didn't see anyone mention a point that I think is extremely important"

actually im pretty sure red did. he said that the risks were not enough to make him refrain from laying the smack down when neccessary.

[GLW]

Get real about the car....

If you opened up a can of Whoop A$$ on everyone that cut you off on the road, you would spend 90% of your time beating on little old people, soccer mom's with cell phones and SUVs, and other such nefarious and dangerous people.

Try riding a motorcycle for a short time. EVERY CAR ON THE ROAD is your enemy. They do NOT see you and they WILL cut you off, drive like a maniac, and in short, do any number of things to threaten your life.

This is from otherwise normal, polite, and sane people.

So...by the reasoning here, I should just follow them and beat the tar out of them each time I feel justified.

Sorry...it doesn't work.

If you have gotten away safely, the only real reason to go and say anything to a driver after the fact is if there is legal action or if by doing so you can TRULY prevent a sad occurrence in the future. These two things are very rare instances.

In the theater with a cell phone, you are annoyed and inconvenienced but that is it. If you have the right to bust a$$ on anyone because they annoyed you with rudeness, then you might as well sign up for chaos. This is truly the old west syndrome....and WHY did people want to move away from that and be glad when the "Law" came to town.

[Oso]

GLW

I agree it is a little (or a lot) arrogant to decide that you have the
right to make a judgement call on someone and react to it.

And, I agree that it depends on the severity of the situation.

My pet peeve is self-centeredness. People who do something
because they feel the world should revolve around them. I work at a private school and see it all the time...from the parents. Not
that I'm going to lay a smack down on someone who's just
selfish but it really get's my blood boiling.

Believe me, I let things slide because it is not worth the legal
hassle much less chancing a serious escalation into weapons.

my thoughts are more along the line of "it's not fair that this jerk
is acting out and no one is willing to say anything to him" As a
martial artist I have the ability to protect myself if it should get
physical so I can take a little of the risk to point out a bad attitude

In the cellphone/theater scenario I think you have to agree that
most everyone else in the theater was thinking that the guy was
a jerk for forgetting to turn it off. He certainly could have been
made aware of his faux pas in a slightly more civil manner but my
experience is that he probably would have gotten riled up even if
he had been addressed in a polite manner. A lot of people are
like that. And sort of deserve a little attitude adjustment.

[Oso]

I'm kinda Lawful Good with Chaotic Evil tendencies


I lose experience all the dam time.:confused:

[red5angel]

GLW, what exactly makes us "better" then we are and how does self restraint do this?

Also, you mention rights a lot, the right to do this or that and the right to affect people etc... What does that mean exactly? Rights to me are granted. I don't believe in universal truths when it comes to dealing with behaviour, especially when it comes to morality or lawfulness. As for legal action, sometimes that does't result in the best or most desireable outcome. For instance, let's say you see a guy kill someone, but you are alone, and the guy is an upstanding member of the community so when it all goes to trial, there isn't enough evidence. Just your word against his and his overcomes yours, he goes free. Then what?
just discussing by the way, not trying to start a fight.

Oso, are you trying to fight me for title of biggest geek ever?

[Oso]

r5a, nope. I'll give it to you. Just get Dave Arneson's autograph
for me next time you game with him.

In high school my ma pals and d&d pals were all one in the
same group. We constantly applied d&d labels to everyday
life and to training. hmmph, at the time there wasn't anything
else: train and play d&d. We had ultra long combat sequences
because we would all be trying to physically prove why we didn't
miss.

[red5angel]

I would have to say Oso that getting into MA and some other experiences has affected my view on gaming! For instance I apprenticed out to a bowyer for 2 years making traditional bows from all over the world. I was shocked, even to find out at the ripe old age of 25, that there is no real difference between a short bow and a long bow in power. Now of course it all makes sense. What was even more fun was explaining to all the SCA kids and gaming geeks I met, that chainmail was not designed to stop arrows, however silk worked really well for the japanese.
Arnesons a good guy. I met him through a friend I work with out at the local Renaissance Festival (I'm not geeky enough to dress up for the role, I work security and medical response but it does give me a chance to wear my kilt ). Also if you have ever read a book written by a man called Steven Brust ( and I highly recommend his stuff for light reading, highly entertaining) he works out there as well and I threaten every year to throw him out if he doesn't write me into one of his **** books ;).
If you know what the SCA is your geekness just went up. If your IN the SCA I should kick your ass right now.

[GLW]

"GLW, what exactly makes us "better" then we are and how does self restraint do this?"

Every animal or child is born knowing how to win... Similarly, we all know how to take a me first approach, be bullies, be whiny, violent, impatient, etc...to get what we want. This is the simplest animal part of man and animal.

To be able to see a bigger picture, exercise restraint, NOT be violent or whiny or abusive to get what we want. Working within a societal framework, saying things in maybe a less than expedient way because the fastest way to say it is also the way that will make sure that the end result is NOT a change in behaviour but an escalation of the the behaviour that you find objectionable, etc.... are all part of being better.

To give in to self interest and immediate gratification is easy. Any child can do it and does. To do something else is a sign of growth and becoming more than that.


"Also, you mention rights a lot, the right to do this or that and the right to affect people etc... What does that mean exactly? "

My rights stop at your nose...is an easy way to view it. If I am doing something that disrupts you then I am violating you. However, does that mean that you have a right to be immature, violent, threatening, or whatever? Not really.

There are appropriate responses to a situation. There are also appropriate responses that are better than other appropriate responses.

I am NOT advocating people just say nothing and let the jerks rule the world. In fact, I advocate people being vocal about and to jerks because as long as society at large ALLOWS bad behaviour, bad behaviour continues. A society that demands courtesy gets it....

However, if someone is cutting you off on a freeway and you pursue them, YOU are going out of your way to do something. Filing a complaint with the police on a license number - saying they may be under the influence would do more. Following them gets you into the world of PREMEDITATED action because anyone can make the case that you could have NOT done something.

Similarly with the cell phone, saying "Hey a$$hole...." will surely get a negative response. Saying "Excuse me...." is neutral. A negative response can still come back and you can then deal with that. If you get a manager...that is the legal way. If you say "Hey buddy, I was asking you nicely, you don't need to be a jerk about it..." in a firm voice can illustrate that you WERE trying to give him an out and he is not smart enough to take it.

I think we both know that there are acceptable ways to deal with the situation and that saying "Hey jerk..." or "Hey a$$hole.." is not one of them.


"Rights to me are granted."

Certain rights may be in US society...but as a rule - rights and privileges are earned.

"I don't believe in universal truths when it comes to dealing with behaviour, especially when it comes to morality or lawfulness. "

Universal truths...probably not....but in the instance you stated, it was pretty obvious even to you in the way you wrote it that you were NOT handling it the way you knew you should deep down inside. Otherwise, there would be no question or discussion posted by you here.


"As for legal action, sometimes that does't result in the best or most desireable outcome. For instance, let's say you see a guy kill someone, but you are alone, and the guy is an upstanding member of the community so when it all goes to trial, there isn't enough evidence. Just your word against his and his overcomes yours, he goes free. Then what?"

Sorry, the world is NOT perfect and if you are waiting for a perfect signed sealed and delivered set of rules...don't hold your breath. But, the rules are a start. Sometimes they work...but if they dont and you tried...OK. If you say that it won't work and don't try, then you don't even have a good starting point to base a protest on.

"just discussing by the way, not trying to start a fight."

Not upset at all...and I trust you are taking this the same way.

[red5angel]

GLW, good stuff, I mostly just wanted to see where you were coming from.

I pretty much agree and you're right, I know when I handle a situation less then perfect I know I am doing something "wrong". I question it either way sometimes because what really is right or wrong? Conditioning like Yenhoi says? Survival? Or is it something deeper that we understand?

As for rights I whole heartedly agree with you, however I still say rights are granted. If someone is not there to give you the right then the right really doesn't exist. You can only earn them if there is someone or something there to earn them from.
Rights I think go along with morality, in that it is all subjective. On another thread someone accused america of becoming a fascist state because they are supposedly cracking down on some so called rights. Yet we still have alot of freedom in what we read, speak and show interest in. Do you have the right to drive? How about to have children?
I have the right to an attorney, as long as that is the law where I live. I have the privelage to drive but not the right.
Basic human rights? I don't believe in them accept of course when they are created and then granted to other human beings by human beings.

Ultimately I understand the right and wrong of my actions. I have a golden rule, I won't do anything I am not willing to accept the consequences for and I will try to not do anything that will take choices from others.

[Oso]

dang, this conversation is missing several things:

several large comfortable chairs
a fireplace
and a good bottle of something


my golden rule is that I always think about what my actions
may mean to someone else.

If I pull up next to old people and my music is loud...I turn it down.

fer example

my happiness does not preclude your happiness. I just tend to
think everyone should be this way and get a little ****ed when
someone goes out of there way to be obnoxious and rude just
because they can.


GLW, I like what you're saying. Food for thought.

[red5angel]

Oso, what if you are sitting on a bus with a bunch of old people and someone gets on with a radio that is too loud, or even better, who is harassing the old people?

[Oso]

ok, now see, that's getting into the realm of the
Guardian Angels and stuff.

Loud Radio: I would see if everyone appeared to be ****ed and
if they were I would try to be as polite as I could be and ask them to turn it down. Now, I personally think people that would
even get on the bus playing a loud radio have already crossed
the line. But, the haven't really done anything physically or
mentally damaging to anyone so it's a lesser offence.

Harassment: This could be mentally damaging (causing fear)
or physical harassment and I would not stand for it. Of course,
at this point I would have to start analyzing the scene and
attempt to arrive at a tactic that would keep me, or anyone else,
from undue harm. I doubt I would risk death to stop someone from mentally hurting someone. I probably wouldn't be thinking
about my own self if some old lady was getting pushed around.
One thing I learned in 7 years of bouncing: Sneak 'em if you can.
If 2 people are in each other's faces then they won't notice the 4
bouncers getting ready to grab them. If the assailent is busy
messing with someone else then they are toast. Different of
course if there are more than 1 but I'd be ok with up to 4 to 1.

Especially with surprise on my side and multiple attacks per round
for unheard of damage.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"If you opened up a can of Whoop A$$ on everyone that cut you off on the road, you would spend 90% of your time beating on little old people, soccer mom's with cell phones and SUVs, and other such nefarious and dangerous people."

funny cause i just got cut off by one of those cell phone soccer moms today on the way to work. we were going about 75 and it would not have been pretty if i hadn't made it over to the shoulder. if given the chance i would have beat that bi tch bloody.

im not and advocate of anarchy, but i am a fan of street justice.
what's going to happen when soccer mom cuts someone off with slower reflexes and she's got kids in the car? that stupid ***** puts childrens lives at risk everyday out of simple carelessness and the mentality that car wrecks only happen to other people.
a good beating would likely do her some good.

i think this entire country has become way too pasified. beating people works. maybe we don't need citizens dishing out the beatings, but somebody should. it's cheaper, more effective, and way more fun than our current prison system.

it just doesnt make any sense to me. you take someone from the ghetto who has known little else other than crime ... they get busted for stealing a car, thrown into a place worse than the ghetto, become better educated criminals, partake in a couple rapings and ganks, and thrown back on the street when the facility is to over crowded to hold them. and we call this reform? take that same guy and beat the sh it out of him and he might just think "**** ... that sh it hurt" next time he goes to lift a car. it sure as hell couldnt work any worse.

back on topic, i think that until corperal punishment is fully institutionalized red should beat up everyone who pi sses him off.

[Oso]

funny cause i just got cut off by one of those cell phone soccer moms today on the way to work. we were going about 75 and it would not have been pretty if i hadn't made it over to the shoulder. if given the chance i would have beat that bi tch bloody.


Another thing that ****es me off if people that cut the corner off
your lane as they are turning. Usually this happens every day to
me and I want to just keep moving forward in my vehicle till I
reach my white line and cream the **** out of them. But, I won't
because I can't be sure that it will only be the driver of the other
car that is affected.



im not and advocate of anarchy, but i am a fan of street justice.
what's going to happen when soccer mom cuts someone off with slower reflexes and she's got kids in the car? that stupid ***** puts childrens lives at risk everyday out of simple carelessness and the mentality that car wrecks only happen to other people.
a good beating would likely do her some good.


the soccar mom's are the worst for self-centeredness while
behind the wheel of a vehicle that will probably protect them
in a wreck but will demolish most other vehicles.

Amen, to street justice. Anyone read Heinlein? I think it was
"The day after tomorrow" where there is a scene with a purse
snatcher that gets apprahended by a couple of bystanders. A
street court is immediately drawn up w/ judge, jury and master
of arms. Witnesses are called, judgement is made and the master
of arms immediately administers a public flogging.



i think this entire country has become way too pasified. beating people works. maybe we don't need citizens dishing out the beatings, but somebody should. it's cheaper, more effective, and way more fun than our current prison system.

it just doesnt make any sense to me. you take someone from the ghetto who has known little else other than crime ... they get busted for stealing a car, thrown into a place worse than the ghetto, become better educated criminals, partake in a couple rapings and ganks, and thrown back on the street when the facility is to over crowded to hold them. and we call this reform? take that same guy and beat the sh it out of him and he might just think "**** ... that sh it hurt" next time he goes to lift a car. it sure as hell couldnt work any worse.



civil rights can be misapplied. Something is wrong with a system
where the criminal has more rights than the victim the second he
ceases actually commiting the crime.

Jails have stopped being a deterrent, that's for sure.
Public dueling, public flogging and the death penalty for certain
crimes should be built within our justice system.

Matt

[guohuen]

Haven't responded to this because Im pretty sure I would do the wrong thing. Eight years ago someone broke my back in two places because they were talking on a cell phone while they were driving and hit my car from the rear at fifty mph at a stop light. I'm pretty sure if I were at a movie and someones cell rang and they did not handle it in a polite quiet manner I would remove it from their ear and crush it under my foot regardless of whom they were and who they were with.

[Oso]

'right' and 'wrong' are not always going to be described in
objective intellectual terms. 'right' and 'wrong' are completely
subjective.

if a wrong is being done in your presence, to you or someone
else, you react to it with your gut. your 'gut' is who you are.

for right or wrong I think that is being who you are.

[Skarbromantis]

GDA's last point was right on, coming from a guy who has done a far share of jail time, being behind bars isn’t ****, after the first stay, they all become easier, and that’s how it went for myself, did I learn anything, NO! Did I care, NO!, Now if I had a dad to kick my ass, then I would have thought twice, once 2 cops laid me out in the station, for mothing off, I remembered that, think I played on their shift, no way, a good ass kicking goes a long way!

I would have stood up in the theatre, and said "Yo buddy, turn you fu(king phone off, simple, but I’m also 5'10, tattooed, and have dreads to the ass, enjoy pain, and live in a dirty city, where we are known to do dirty things, I don’t respect police, the law, rats, pc's, soccer moms, or theatre phone talking goofs, if you disrespect, you get hit, no questions asked, don’t feel sorry for you after, don’t care if you cant sleep, or even if the beating puts you in therapy, if you act stupid, suffer the consequences, so if you get out of line, be smart, insult me, offend me, mouth off, you get smacked, Martial Arts have taught me, many things, the one thing it never taught me is, to get punked off and not defend it.

Sorry if the post is offence, but that’s life, and that’s how it happens on my block.

As GDA said "I think this entire country has become way too pacified" mind you I am 1 very quiet guy that doesn’t look for trouble, but when it shows its self in the form of ignorance, I’m the first to put it in its place, and this also goes both ways, If you see me doing, or acting the same..... hit me!

Skard 1

[scotty1]

I would never take it upon myself to "teach someone a lesson".

I would fight if I had to, for the protection of myself and loved ones, but over a principle, and acell phone in a cinema, no way.

To my mind that is, no offence, stupid.

Violence should never be used when there is an alternative.

"Sorry if the post is offence, but that’s life, and that’s how it happens on my block."

I'm glad I don't live on your block if thats how you deal with people that p!ss you off.

There are appropriate levels of response for certain situations, and beating someone because they p!ssed you off is way out of line. And an abuse of your training.

Even if you have tattoos.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

yeah but he's got dread locks too. i think that means he's allowed.

[Oso]

Everyone has the right to protest something they don't like.

If you start your protest in a civil manner and they
continue to be sh itty and want to escalate then it's on them
and not you.

[scotty1]

Oso, I agree with everything you wrote 100%.

If you protest in a civil manner (or even just in a verbal / non-threatening manner) and they escalate it, then fine, attack pre-emptively.

But if you're the one escalating the situation to the physical level when its not necessary then that's wrong, IMO.

[Oso]

scotty1

I never start anything physically.

I think when r5a started this thread there were some points
made about feeling that a certain action should be taken and
the battle was actually with yourself as to whether the action
should be taken or not. GLW made some very good points about
appointing yourself an 'as shole arbiter' (he, he).

I'm just not big on the belief that bad people get theirs in the
end. I've seen too many jerks not pay for their actions.

Of course, I'm not seeing the very end of their journey either
so I could certainly be wrong about that.

[scotty1]

"I'm just not big on the belief that bad people get theirs in the
end. I've seen too many jerks not pay for their actions."

Fair enough.

But I believe violence is the last option, and there are ways and means of dealing with an ass.hole without having to resort to the last option first. Esp. if the ass.hole is non-threatening.

[cha kuen]

Hey red, How is your trianing going? What are you working on?

**kung fu books** (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=taichimaster06&sort=3&rows=25&since=-1)

[Oso]

well, I think we, or at least I, have been talking about people
that were threatening.

but, yea, the physicall is always a last option and I personally like
to play so if I decide that I'm a lot better than they are then they
will most likely be more humiliated than hurt.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

why is violence so bad?

[Oso]

because the word violence comes from the word violen. Since
the violen is a very hard instrument to learn how to play listening
to beginning violen players is very bad. So, the word violence
was coined.

when people started being meaner to each other in 1689 no one
could think of a word to describe it and then two kids just learning
to play the violen got into a fight and started hitting each other
with their violen's. the rest is history.

[dezhen2001]

i thought it is spelled 'violin'?:confused:

dawood

[Oso]

aw, c'mon I was reaching anyway:)

[scotty1]

Good try. Probably fooled GDA.:D

[dezhen2001]

was a pretty good answer though, and GDA hasnt posted :D

dawood

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

posted what? i forget.

[Serpent]

Don't bogart, dude. Pass it on.

[Excession]

People who share Skarbromantis' views, assuming he really believes what he posts, are one of the reasons I pratice MA. People who have chosen to react violently to minor irritants cannot be considered totally balanced. Is potential injury to yourself, or death, worth teaching somebody a lesson? If these types of decisions are made when sober, how badly would they react after a bit of alchohol. Why do they act as if their life and the lives of others are less important than minor incidents and pride? I feel I have too much to lose by fighting over nothing. Though I have made the choice to defend myself and those I care about if they are attacked.

I don't believe you were taught a lesson by the police. "I don’t respect police" - Skarbromantis
Assuming you were taught a lesson by the cops... If the balance of power were to shift, and you were the one who had power over them, wouldn't you exact revenge?

"Yo buddy, turn you fu(king phone off," - Skarbromantis
Wouldn't that be considered 'mouthing off'? Maybe just an 'insult'? Or 'disrespect'?

This soapbox is precarious isn't it? :D