Leung Ting on streetfighting and article on the Leung Sheung controversy.

[UltimateFighter]

Here is an interesting article on streetfighting by Leung Ting.

There is also on the same link an article about the Leung Sheung/Leung Ting confusion which is quite interesting. It talks of how Leung Sheung was in a disupte with Yip Man and how Yip Man apparently got back at Sheung by teaching Leung Ting techniques such as Chi-gerk that he never showed to Sheung.

http://www.wingtsun-bg.com/interviews-wt.htm

[rubthebuddha]

old news. grandmaster leung ting doesn't speak ill of his sifu leung sheung, so why must you bring up stuff like this? and yes, he still refers to leung sheung as his sifu. once a sifu, always a sifu.

quit trolling and post something fresh and relevant.

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
old news. grandmaster leung ting doesn't speak ill of his sifu leung sheung, so why must you bring up stuff like this? and yes, he still refers to leung sheung as his sifu. once a sifu, always a sifu.

quit trolling and post something fresh and relevant.

How is this trolling? This refers to the debate about leung sheung. Take the article for what it is not as proof.

My advice to you? Stop being a geek and get out more.

[rubthebuddha]

it's trolling, because you consistently post articles and raise issues that have no real point other than to get a word or two in edgewise about sigung. starting threads like this, or about leung ting wing tsun being the best, etc., do NOT encourage robust discussion. rather, they pîss off students of other sifus and disappoint people like me who are unhappy that we have narrow attitudes like yours in our lineage. get a simple thought into your head:

there IS NO DEBATE about leung sheung. hasn't been one for about two decades ago. that was settled when sifus like kwok keung and wang kiu responded to accusations by other people in the greater wing chun family. case closed.

your comments about MMA have rasied some good points, particularly about the application of wing chun in competition and the inability for most WC (and WT, for that matter) students to ge the job done in the ring. however, starting threads that encourage the downplay of other lineages in favor of your own IS trolling, and it has no place here. how else can one interpret this statement as other than trolling about a leung ting and his late sifu:


Originally posted by UltimateFighter
It talks of how Leung Sheung was in a disupte with Yip Man and how Yip Man apparently got back at Sheung by teaching Leung Ting techniques such as Chi-gerk that he never showed to Sheung.
since you mention advice, here's mine: train more, troll less and stop embarassing your lineage.

[scuba steve]

Leung Ting does not mention his sifu Leung Sheung by name in any of his writings be they magazine interviews or his most recent books. In his writings he simply uses the term my former sifu--never using his name.

This is most likely because Leung Ting did not seek the permission of his sifu to approach Yip Man for instruction, which is of course a violation of protocol. That may be less the case now some 40 years later, but not so then.

Leung Ting was indeed a student of Yip Man for about 8 months or so prior to Yip Man's death. That said the majority of his training time was with Leung Sheung and probably his own uncles, who were students of Leung Sheung.

As Leung Ting himself has stated last year in the Kung Fu Magazine article, Yip Man was in very very poor health and at most would have been "fine tuning" Leung Ting and being more of a coach than an active hands on trainer. Look at the footage of the man (Yip Man) 2 weeks prior to his death--a tragic sight. And not a portrait of a man who would be going full out in chi sao or gor sao with a young student. He would not have had the stamina or physical conditioning.

As to Wang Kiu, his skill in Wing Chun was more as a newspaper reporter writing about Wong Shun Leung's fights. Most of his students were in holland and the majority of them restarted under Wong Shun Leung when he visited Holland for a series of seminars.

How would Wang Kiu have any clue if Leung Ting went back to Leung Sheung's school and showed "new skills" to his sifu? Doing so, would I think be quite disrespectful in a large variety of ways. Does anyone here actually think Leung Ting would engage in that kind of behavior? It might make for a good tale from Wang Kiu, but seems highly unlikely to have happened in fact.

If any of you went for training with your own si-gung, learn something that your own sifu was not taught...would you then go back and INTENTIONALLY show off such things on purpose to rub them in your own Sifu's face? I'm actually rather surprised that the WT organization would include that portion of Wang Kiu's comments in their "defense" of Leung Ting.

As to Leung Sheung and Yip Man, while there were certainly points of disagreement between them over Yip Man offering "additional training" to anyone who would walk in the door and ply him with money, that is between the two of them.

The level of committment to training and studying under one's sifu then is nowhere near the same it is today, unless there are those of you who are living with your sifu. If you had done so for 6 years and then see some schmoe walk in and sucessfully buy advanced techniques from your teacher you might be miffed as well. While it is certainly the teacher's decision to do what he wants--it would probably sting you as well.

[rubthebuddha]

well said, scuba.

[anerlich]

FWIW:

The latest Australian Blitz mag refers to Leung Ting as a "Great Grandmaster". Presumably this promotion was necessary as Keith Kernspecht now has assumed the title "Grandmaster".

So Lung Ting is now a "Great Grandmaster" as well as "Master of Almightiness".

Make of this what you will.

[rubthebuddha]

a bit cheesy, yes. has to do with the ranking system ...

instructors are broken off into grades, the first of which is called primary level technician takes 3-5 years to earn.

technician grades 1-4 are simply referred to as technician. 5-8 are practicians. from then on, it gets all literary ...

9 is man of arrival
10 is master of comprehension
11 is master of almightiness
12 is sage of philosophy (which no one is in any hurry to get -- it's given in honorarium).

not sure exactly my opinion on these titles, as i'm afraid the original chinese terms lost some meaning or added some cheesiness (or both) in the translation process. they're supposed to imply the level of perspective the instructor has gained, as the last four are more for knowledge and understanding than skill and ability. but, as anerlich said, make of this what you will.

[byond1]

hi...
no offence scuba...and over all i agree with your mature , inteligent posts...but leung ting..always speaks ill of leung sheung...he constanly belittles what he had previouly learned to what he learned from yip man...always brings up how the method of his sifu made no sence and how bad of a teacher he was...
and there is no contravercy as you said because leung sheung said publicaly leung ting did not learn from him...leung ting leanred from cheung pak...that is who was leung sheungs direct student...cheung pak was leung tings maternal uncle .
wang kiu has produced many great students...the quality of his students speaks for it self...of couce this doesnt mean he had any idea of what yip man did with leung ting....im just saying ....respect a direct student of yip man for that fact....not as a god..just our elder...in age as well as in the system
i believe that leung ting did learn from ym privatly for 8 or 9 months...big deal that no one else saw this or not...many people..even the vtaa says that no one knows who duncan leung is...again another private student.....and what, did yip man have an obligation to tell everyone who he was teaching?
and anyway the important thing is leung sheung and ym made up up for both there passing . this is a good thing. people have fights. it passes as all things do.


1ultimateangel--uggg

[UltimateFighter]

Rubthbud,

The 'troll' of this forum is you as you are always quick to attack others for their posts and this automatically leads to petty *****ing the likes of which I have no intention to continue with you. I ask questions about my lineage. The aim was not to put down anyone elses and I was citing what the article stated about Yip Man seeking revenge against Leung sheung by teaching Leung Ting .

Good posts by scuba steve and byond1,

The purpose of this thread was to find out more info about this lineage debacle and I personally was unaware of some of the points raised.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
I ask questions about my lineage.

I would too if I were you. :p


The aim was not to put down anyone elses and I was citing what the article stated about Yip Man seeking revenge against Leung sheung by teaching Leung Ting .

That insinuation was nonsense as was the article on street fighting. Leung Ting never held a candle to Leung Sheung, and there is the question of whether there was a student/teacher relationship there as well as between Yip Man and LT. Leung Sheung represented Yip Man publicly for years, so it's obvious the accusations that Yip Man was trying to hurt his reputation through teaching a mutual student a few tricks, is ludicrous.


Good posts by scuba steve and byond1,

Scuba Steve's not only erudite, but well read and authoritative.


The purpose of this thread was to find out more info about this lineage debacle and I personally was unaware of some of the points raised.
Well, now you know.

[rubthebuddha]

UF -- i think you're a bit out of it on the concept of trolling. like i said, you've raised good questions. but rarely do i see any benevolence in your posts that regard lineage.

the reason i consider this trolling is that any feud between wing chun families is old news and a point of irritation for the vast majority of anyone on this forum. they've been discussed, argued, *****ed about to the point of beating a dead horse. that same horse has been propped up time and again and beaten some more.

any feud between leung sheung and yip man ended in 1972 when yip man passed away. there IS no debacle anymore -- hasn't been for 30 years.

my point of view is this: i dislike your acting as a representative of wt, because i don't like the arrogant, wt- is-the-end-all-be-all-of-the-wing-chun-world attitude that comes across in your posts. wt isn't -- wt is just wt -- and your quick discarding of perspectives from other lineages is counter to what this forum is about and what a good, open mind detests.

i LIKE the fact that you question things -- you're supposed to question as part of your training. your sifu teaches, you practice, and if you have doubts about techniques, you question them with your hands. if you get hit, the technique wasn't the best. if you don't, then you're doing well. it's like chi sau. your hands search and search and when they find errors, they take advantage of them.

my suggestion is this: by your most recent message, you're implying that you wish to learn the history. if so, ask, and phrase your questions specifically to keep the focus from being trolled by someone saying, "leung ting was a <insert insult here>" or "leung sheung doesn't know <insert knowledge here>." simply posting an article and leaving it out there for the wolves is asking for it, and that is why i question your motives -- it's why i regularly question your motives. i'd rather not, so i ask that you focus your posts.

one thing i do want from you -- feedback on how judo has influenced your wing tsun, and what judo you still see surface when you practice your wt. i'm starting a thread on switching from grappling to wing chun, and i'd like your perspectives.

[UltimateFighter]

Rubthebud,

I can see how you may have percieved posts as coming from a WT is the be all end all perspective but that is not the case. To be honest, although history interests me it is only the techniques that matter and I am extremely dubious of any stories regarding heirarchy or lineage surrounding Yip Man.



Originally posted by Grendel

That insinuation was nonsense as was the article on street fighting. Leung Ting never held a candle to Leung Sheung, and there is the question of whether there was a student/teacher relationship there as well as between Yip Man and LT. Leung Sheung represented Yip Man publicly for years, so it's obvious the accusations that Yip Man was trying to hurt his reputation through teaching a mutual student a few tricks, is ludicrous.



Now thats trolling.

[rubthebuddha]

the comment regarding LT and LS is a bit trollish, but i have to agree that the idea that yip man would teach leung ting as a passive-aggressive way to get back at leung sheung seems imaginitive at best.

i've read about some of yip man's lifestyle choices that weren't the best in the grander schemes (his opium addiction), but i've never come across anything substantial that shows his character to be one of spite.

i'd not bow to him several times each evening if i thought his character was suspect. :)

[anerlich]

Actually, Messrs Leung and Kernspecht (particularly the latter) come across as fairly level headed and conciliatory. Most of the sh1t-stirring is done by others, though hopefully they weren't used as mouthpieces for the party line.

I find the story about YM teaching Leung Ting Chi Gerk to get back at Leung Sheung about as believable as I do the story about YM teaching only William Cheung the "unmodified" version of WC.

One of my instructors told me that "only a fool listens to the braying of the a$$." Getting worked up over gossip has no value.