Methods of Power Generation

[CrippledAvenger]

So, this is something I've been wondering about for a few weeks now. I've noticed a lot of talk about how arts generate power differently, and I'm wondering if:

A) Is there really a difference between most styles' methods of generating power?

and

b) if these methods are really different, then would they be interchangable with various techniques?

Or, to put it another way: Are the methods of generating force tied to a specific style's particular techniques or are they more fluid? Is there any reason I couldn't, let's say, take Tai Chi's particular "brand" of power generation and use it to throw a jab?

Am I making sense?

edit: for grammar

[dnc101]

Power generation is tied more to principles than to techniques, and some principles do interchange between some styles. Others do not. I can't give you a complete breakdown of which principles interchange with which styles. But I can tell you that the principles in Tai Chi Chuan are very different and do not readily interchange with those of external styles (such as Mui Thai and boxing). That is not to say that you can't practice an external art with internal principles- but it does require more knowlege and experience to do it that way. And external principles do not transfer well at all to Tai Chi. My base is American Kenpo, and I recently startred Tai Chi Chuan, and I tend to trip on my external habbits a lot. My advice is to learn the principles in your art, and then you can better judge whether or how other principles can be applied in your style.

[Water Dragon]

A) Is there really a difference between most styles' methods of generating power?

Yes and no. There are different types of power generation even within a specific style. If you're talking about like types of power generation, they're not that different. It's generally the final product that is unique. Examples of power generation are:

1. Structure-the ability to "link" your body up so that you create a line of force from the ground to your fist.
2. Muscular force-usually involves the big muscles of the legs and torso more than the arms
3. Speed-self explanatory
4. Open/Close- I don't understand this one too well, but it has to do with the opening and closing of the thoraic hinge in the chest.

SPRING POWER This is the one that I've not seen outside of the CMA. It involves torquing the body in a specific way and then releasing that energy thru relaxation; like compressing a spring and letting it go.

b) if these methods are really different, then would they be interchangable with various techniques? Well yes, even within the same art, you will see certain power exercises that work good for certain techniques but not for others. What makes a solid straight body shot is not necesarily what makes a solid hook.

[SevenStar]

like dnc said, it's more principle based. Don't look at the technique, but what it is that drives the technique. take a shoulder throw, for example. you lower your center of gravity and explode up with your hips. to get your opponent to the ground, you twist your torso as you are exploding up - the faster you do so, the faster he falls. Will that apply to a sweep? not at all.

for some punches, you may drive off your front foot, and some from the back. or, it may be something slight, like a pivot of the hips.

the karate/tkd/(most)cma roundhouse - the power comes from the snap - the principle behind it is whipping motion - it can be applied to the front and side snap kicks. with muay thai, the roundhouse is an arcing motion and drives through it's target rather than snapping - the driving principle it uses can't be applied to say, a front kick.

Now, if the two techniques use the same principle, then you may be able to - at least externally. Some Shuai Chiao principles work beautifully with Judo. The taiji principle of yielding is used in muay thai. the way they are employed differs mechanically, but the principle is there. I'm not an internalist though, so I dunno if all of the methods they use will mesh well with an external styles, but to an extent, I would say that principles can be exchanged.

[CrippledAvenger]

Thanks for the responses, guys. now, where to begin?

WD---


... Examples of power generation are:

1. Structure-the ability to "link" your body up so that you create a line of force from the ground to your fist.
2. Muscular force-usually involves the big muscles of the legs and torso more than the arms
3. Speed-self explanatory
4. Open/Close- I don't understand this one too well, but it has to do with the opening and closing of the thoraic hinge in the chest.

Okay, I think I see what you're saying in these, although the last point is only understood in theory. So, if for the most part, power generation starts from the ground up, and uses a universal skeletal structure, why are small variations going to produce different effects? I'm just curious, not being accusatory or anything.

Seven Star, DNC-- Interesting points, but I'm a bit confused as to what exactly these principles are. I can understand, to use seven's shoulder throw example, that you can drop your weight to off-balance and then explode up to complete the manuver. hell, it's something we do in rugby. but what exactly is the "principle" behind that. That's where I get confused.

Thanks for induldging me, guys. Now, fire away.

[count]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger

So, if for the most part, power generation starts from the ground up, and uses a universal skeletal structure, why are small variations going to produce different effects? I'm just curious, not being accusatory or anything.


If power came from the ground up it would take to long. I think power comes from the middle and goes both directions. Structure need to be unbroken from the bottom to the top. At any rate, power is power. Some styles may be more sophisticated in their understanding of power, but we all got the same body.

[SevenStar]

that is the principle - it's what makes the throw work. keeping with the shoulder throw example, you would use that same principle for a hip toss - the turning and exploding is what makes both throws work.

In rugby, you also do that - for a tackle or something? whatever you use it for, the exploding and turning is what makes it effective...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger

Okay, I think I see what you're saying in these, although the last point is only understood in theory. So, if for the most part, power generation starts from the ground up, and uses a universal skeletal structure, why are small variations going to produce different effects? I'm just curious, not being accusatory or anything.



Take a baseball pitch - sinker, fork ball, curve, fastball...same wind up, right? the difference is something small, like when the ball is released, grip on the ball, motion of the wrist, etc.

punch with a vertical fist - it pounds. twist your wrist just before impact - it still pounds, and adds a tearing effect.

different variations have different energies.

[dnc101]

cripp,
The difference in principle and technique is, as seven siad, that the principle drives the technique. Technique allows effective use of principles. They work together. Ex: there are many ways to throw a straight punch- all technically correct for their style. Throwing the punch in such a way that it works well with your styles stances and footwork is 'technique'. Good technique ehances power as it allows you to bring the principles into play. Some principles: backup mass- get youre body momentum behind the punch. Speed- force = mass X velocity squared, so the faster the fist travels the harder it hits. Hit with the whole body- proper structural allignment and settling into a stance as the strike lands and everything tightens up will increase power. (These are external principles used in many styles.) A lot of martial artists develope good technique. But to truly develope power (and any other aspect of their art), the artist must understand and be able to apply principles. Any technique that violates a principle is generally inneffective. Ex: a strike thrown from a poor base will be less than half as effective as one thrown from a solid base, all other things being equal.

count,
In some styles- particularly in internal CMA styles, power does originate from the ground up. And it can be quicker than the external model you give since it is inherently there and in motion at all times. Think of a tree swaying in the breeze- it takes force, or power, to resist the wind. That force is continually applied and continually changing, otherwise the tree would fall.

[Repulsive Monkey]

My prefered method id Dyelithium crystals

[count]

Originally posted by dnc101
count,
In some styles- particularly in internal CMA styles, power does originate from the ground up. And it can be quicker than the external model you give since it is inherently there and in motion at all times. Think of a tree swaying in the breeze- it takes force, or power, to resist the wind. That force is continually applied and continually changing, otherwise the tree would fall.
What is an internal CMA style, and how is it different? What is the external method that is not as quick? Nevermind, don't answer that.

I think you are mistaken. Power comes from the waist area and pushes down first. It pushes up at the same time. Particularly in the "so called internal" CMA. Power is stored in the dan tien and pushes out in all directions. The trick is having the alignment to make the power count.

I don't think a tree does anything to resist the wind either. There is no conscience effort or intent to fight the wind. I think the tree would get pretty tired after a few hundred years of fighting the wind. No grasshopper, revert to the tao. You must bend like a reed in the wind.;)

[red5angel]

When it comes down to it, I don't see a whole lot of difference between so called methods of power generation really. It's all interrelated and I don't think you can have one without the other. For instance, how do you generate power purely through structure or muscular power?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger

Okay, I think I see what you're saying in these, although the last point is only understood in theory. So, if for the most part, power generation starts from the ground up, and uses a universal skeletal structure, why are small variations going to produce different effects? I'm just curious, not being accusatory or anything.

Well, there are different ways to develop each type of force. At the end of a boxers cross, the ground path goes from the fist to the ball of the rear foot. In Long Fist derivatives, the line goes to the back heel. In Xing Yi, the line goes down the back leg which is bent like a spring.

We now have 3 ways of getting the same result. When we start to look at muscular force (the rotation around the axis) you will realize that neither Long Fist nor Xing Yi can drive off the ball of the foot like a boxer. They must use some different way of torquing through the body. Make sense?

[MightyB]

I see no difference. It's all in the hips. Some people chamber some don't, some chant, some scream, some project out their eyes and close their anus, some visualize through their fingers, on and on and on. It's all the same. Call it hara, call it the dan tien, call it physics centered at the waist, but it's all in the hips. External has internal has external has internal... northern, southern, chinese, japanese, korean, okinawan... yada yada yada--- it's all in the hips, and, in the end, they all are the same. We imagine the differences, they aren't really there. Balance, hips, flexibility, timing, and coordination-- that's all you have. Everything else is pretense, imagination, falsehood, whatever---

[Water Dragon]

Part of it is in the hips. A lot of it is in the spine.

[KC Elbows]

Water Dragon,
In my experience, most of the time I use opening/closing for power is in very close. The way I've always looked at it, if you have good open/close skills, even when you're out of space, you can still produce short power by using the space you already occupy.

In six elbows, which uses a lot of this, opening and closing takes place whole body, as in the hips, the shoulders, the legs, etc. When the hip closes, the lead leg will as well a bit, and when the kua opens, the lead knee extends a bit. Usually, this is used very close to press on the opponent's lead knee at the same time as whatever upper body technique being used, be it an elbow to the ribs, an upward fist, an arm bar, what have you.

However, I guess I also use opening and closing to move explosively into an opponent's stance as well.

As far as how power generation is different between arts, I can only speak of what I know. What longfist I know has a lot more swinging of arms, but some of the stuff, made very small, isn't too dissimilar to some six elbows stuff. The six elbows really never swings, or I guess windmills would be a better term to describe it. Six elbows is very hsing yi-ish, which, in my opinion, probably generates power in a similar fashion to what I'd imagine the old school boxers did, back when dropped elbows were the norm.

I think there are some differences, but there's a lot of similarities, and I think there's certain types of power that all schools that fight seem to have down, and if I don't see such power represented, I usually find I'm not too impressed with the fighting that's going on at said school either.

MightB,
Don't you think there's some difference in how the hips are used and to what effect? Some WuDang stuff moves the hips toward the attack, and away at the last moment, say on an elbow to the ribs. There's a qualitative difference between being struck by that vs. an elbow that keeps the hips moving toward the opponent. Mind you, both can get the job done, but I find the power has a sudden and profound acceleration at the very end in the wu dang method vs. simply moving the hip towards the attacker at the same time that the attack reaches its 'moment of truth'.

Mind you, I agree that mostly, power generation is the same, but I think some methods have their utility.

[MightyB]

Don't you think there's some difference in how the hips are used and to what effect? Some WuDang stuff moves the hips toward the attack, and away at the last moment, say on an elbow to the ribs. There's a qualitative difference between being struck by that vs. an elbow that keeps the hips moving toward the opponent. Mind you, both can get the job done, but I find the power has a sudden and profound acceleration at the very end in the wu dang method vs. simply moving the hip towards the attacker at the same time that the attack reaches its 'moment of truth'.

No. All CMA styles worth their salt move how you just described Wu Dang.

With everything that anybody has ever described or has written about or has shown, I have never, never, never seen anything that is exclusive to that style when it comes to power generation. Hard vs Soft, Northern, Southern, all the stereotypes are made up. I'll use 7* Praying Mantis as an example. We have three basic elements that you have to master to get good: So Fat, Bo Fat, Sun Yin (spelled phonetically). They mean Hand Technique, Foot Work, and Body Positioning. When you master and coordinate these essentials, you need very little strength or distance to generate power. (This is when you start to realize chi, real chi. Not the BS that people claim as Chi, Real Chi takes time and is not a gimmick and looks nothing like anything you've ever seen, because it looks like nothing-- it's just there or not). The power generation is no different than that of an internalist. This remains true of all high level martial artists. It's not a strength exertion at all.

One of the best things that you can ever do is go to an event where there are a lot of high ranking masters from varied styles doing exhibitions. You will quickly begin to recognize Jing. Some masters have it, most don't. Of the masters that have it, regardless of the style, it's the same Jing. You have to witness it to know what I'm talking about. It becomes really obvious to you who is good, and who ain't. It's Jing baby.

Bagua is pretty wierd with the circular walking and spiraling, but the applied power, the Jing, is the same.

[KC Elbows]

I wasn't meaning to say such movement was exclusive to wu dang, or to 'internal' styles. Just using wu dang as an example of what I'm talking about.

I agree with you on the merit of viewing masters demos. And yes, some people don't have much pepper, even some people much more famous than little ol me.

Would you say that that same power generation is present in western boxing?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by MightyB

Of the masters that have it, regardless of the style, it's the same Jing. You have to witness it to know what I'm talking about. It becomes really obvious to you who is good, and who ain't. It's Jing baby.


Are you referring to the shudder?

[MightyB]

Not necessarily a shudder. It's a snap--- you can just tell-- their power penetrates, it's very precise, and it doesn't use more than it should. It's a qualitative thing that you can see, and it's really difficult to describe. If a master has jing, it's always with them. When they walk, when they talk, eat, s hit, whatever, it carries with them. Non MAists can sense it too. It's wierd, but they will naturally be drawn to that person. You'll notice that people want to be around that master, that a master with jing has a presense. They often command a room without saying a word. They also don't boast, they are extremely low key and quiet. They smile a lot and let others brag, because they don't have to. They have Jing, what else do they need. If a master has Jing, everybody knows. Watch other masters watching a masters demo. Listen in on their conversations, see who they criticize and who they praise.

[MightyB]

Would you say that that same power generation is present in western boxing?

Yes, in some boxers. But possesing Jing doesn't necessarily mean that they are the best, or that they are even champions. Some boxers do have jing though.

[crumble]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
Are the methods of generating force tied to a specific style's particular techniques or are they more fluid? Is there any reason I couldn't, let's say, take Tai Chi's particular "brand" of power generation and use it to throw a jab?

It seems like there's two major types of force: the striking/impact force and push/deflect/move this guy around force.

The deflection kind of force seems pretty universal. It's leverage.

From what I've seen, methods of generating striking power are more tied to the teacher rather than the style. For example, the difference between pakua and tai chi seems to be more about the techniques and movement of the body, rather than the method of generating raw power.

And some teachers teach several different ways of generating power. I seem to recall Tim Cartmell (www.shenwu.com) saying that he advocated learning as many different ways of generating power as you could. It makes sense. If you are on ice, you are going to have a hard time "springing" off the back foot to power a punch. In this case, a swinging-type attack might make more sense.

All I can say for certain is that I want to learn more methods of generating power! Palm strikes, compressing off the front foot...

****, it's been a year since WD and I had this same conversation and I don't feel much closer to having an complete answer! Of course it takes time for a clumsy elephant to learn how to move...

-crumble

[CrippledAvenger]

Well, there are different ways to develop each type of force. At the end of a boxers cross, the ground path goes from the fist to the ball of the rear foot. In Long Fist derivatives, the line goes to the back heel. In Xing Yi, the line goes down the back leg which is bent like a spring.

Interesting. I was taught to really plant my feet when going for the cross, but I think I see what you're getting at.


We now have 3 ways of getting the same result. When we start to look at muscular force (the rotation around the axis) you will realize that neither Long Fist nor Xing Yi can drive off the ball of the foot like a boxer. They must use some different way of torquing through the body. Make sense?

Well, I've only seen clips of both arts so I'm probably not qualified to make any comment on the matter. I trust your judgement on this one. So, then is it a matter of the type of power generation dictating the technique, or does the technique contain it's own method of generating force?

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by crumble
lots of good stuff snipped...

And some teachers teach several different ways of generating power. I seem to recall Tim Cartmell (www.shenwu.com) saying that he advocated learning as many different ways of generating power as you could. It makes sense. If you are on ice, you are going to have a hard time "springing" off the back foot to power a punch. In this case, a swinging-type attack might make more sense.

All I can say for certain is that I want to learn more methods of generating power! Palm strikes, compressing off the front foot...

What if there's not really that many different "types" of power generation, but it's a matter of transfering said force? I'm still working this one over a bit. Still, if there's really a difference between say, an internal method of power generation and something else, will one also have to learn new techniques if one sets out to acquire a different method of generation?


****, it's been a year since WD and I had this same conversation and I don't feel much closer to having an complete answer! Of course it takes time for a clumsy elephant to learn how to move...

-crumble

Poor WD. He just seems to be a magnet for these kinds of conversations. :D

BTW, Crumble, do you train with Master Choi, if you don't mind my asking?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger

So, then is it a matter of the type of power generation dictating the technique, or does the technique contain it's own method of generating force?

OK, now you're asking for stuff that's a bit above my understanding. But my understanding is it's both. You have your base power exercises that you do, but you may focus on a few particulars if you're working on a specific technique.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by Water Dragon


OK, now you're asking for stuff that's a bit above my understanding. But my understanding is it's both. You have your base power exercises that you do, but you may focus on a few particulars if you're working on a specific technique.

Cool. I'll buy that. I don't want to go off the deep end or anything... just something I've been thinking about while waiting to get the all clear to go back to hitting things, ya know?

[Water Dragon]

When are you getting the all clear? If you still want to learn the Shuai Chiao, I would be very interested in learning some Boxing/Muay Thai.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
When are you getting the all clear? If you still want to learn the Shuai Chiao, I would be very interested in learning some Boxing/Muay Thai.

I get the last pin that's coming out removed within the next week or so, depending on how long it takes to get authorization from my insurance company.

After that it's going to be about a month before the hole in the bone heals up, but I can probably start learning before that. Keep in mind though, I'm no where near expert at either, but I'll be glad to teach you what little I know. And regardless, that Shuia Chiao looks fantastic.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by SevenStar
that is the principle - it's what makes the throw work. keeping with the shoulder throw example, you would use that same principle for a hip toss - the turning and exploding is what makes both throws work.

In rugby, you also do that - for a tackle or something? whatever you use it for, the exploding and turning is what makes it effective...

Yeah, it's kinda a trick that one of our coaches taught me because I'm one of the thinner guys on the team. When I played in the pack (the big guys in the front who get into scrums), I used it as a tackle after I'd grabbed the guys jersey. You drop the weight to pull him one way, and then use your legs to drive up and through him when he's off balance. The only problem I had with it was I had to hit the guy with a shoulder or something to slow him up before I could do it. Momentum is a huge asset sometimes.

I was also experimenting with it as a way to break a tackle but I broke my ankle right after I got moved out of the pack so... oh well. :(

[JusticeZero]

How does falling energy fit into it? Power generated by controlled falling to load and align structure for an attack, used for some kicks

[Water Dragon]

Falling energy is just one more force vector to throw into the mix.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by JusticeZero
How does falling energy fit into it? Power generated by controlled falling to load and align structure for an attack, used for some kicks

also used for sacrifice throws

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

im definately of the persuassion that power comes from the ground . ... its collected then distributed by the center.

[Lowlynobody]

For those who think power doesn't come from the ground - do you do stance training? If you do, why?
If its all in the waist I take it fau chun tun tou doesn't work?

Other ways to generate power - two hands working as one, shock from the dan tian, rib power, body posture, the already mentioned body or joint alingment, and many more beyond my experiance.


Lowlynobody.

[count]

Originally posted by Lowlynobody
For those who think power doesn't come from the ground - do you do stance training? If you do, why?
If its all in the waist I take it fau chun tun tou doesn't work?
If your implying that stance training is to stengthen the legs, you are only partly correct. There is an immediate strengthening benefit but over time you will realize there is a much greater benefit to rooting energy and circulating the breath, blood and chi. It's for balancing your alignment and stengthening the smaller muscle groups, tendons and skeleton. Anyway, real power dosen't require big muscles.

Your probably sitting at your computer right now. Stand up and than tell me if you felt the stomach or the legs move first?

Other ways to generate power - two hands working as one, shock from the dan tian, rib power, body posture, the already mentioned body or joint alingment, and many more beyond my experiance.


Lowlynobody.
Oh please, any Chinese dictionary will list several pages of dozens and dozens of different kinds of jings. Here following are just a few.

[count]

Peng Jing (Pushing Power)
Peng is the very basic "power". It is the ability to transmit power, strength, energy, etc, thru an "extremity" (one of the 7 stars : head, shoulders, elbows, hands, hips, knees, feet).

Ding Jing (Listening Power)
Peng is considered also as the audible energy because it is through peng that one can listen to the opponent's body. As the studentdevelops the core peng strength, work is begun on building a good connection and communication between student and opponent. Through the aid of practice to increase sensitivity, the student can precisely detect the opponent's power, center of gravity, direction, pressure, etc., as if actually hearing the vibrations. Understanding Power (Dong Jing) motivation, one can continue developing and advancing listening ability to the stage of under standing power. In other words, the mind becomes able to analyze and measure the pressure, direction character, speed, force, etc., of the opponent's movements in order to be able to cope with them properly. In most chinese martial arts this Power is trained thru Tuishou (pushing-hand) drills (f.e. called Chi sao inwingchun).

Zang Lian Jing (Sticking Power)
Through Rolling Hands Practice, Pushing Practice and practice in reversing the transfer of power process, the student develops the sensitivity and controlling ability known as sticking power. In other words, the student should be able to stick with an opponent in order to control him, attack, or defeat his attack. Usually with the initial contact between two people in a free-style fighting situation, the student can use peng to sense the opponent's hand (with advanced students the sensitivity will encompass the entire body) and there is an almost magnetic feeling. That is, the opponent feels as if he were stuck to the student almost like chewing gum can stick to the body. The special application of sticking power is the slowing of an opponent's speed and also the redirection of any kind of energy emitted by the opponent (a straight push get deflected without any apparent reason. This Power is also involved in the "unpushable man" trick).

Zuo Jing (Following Power)
By combining all of the previously described types of power, one can advance one's ability further and develop following power. This type of power allows the student to follow the direction of the opponent in all situations and respond accordingly.

Hua Jing (Neutralizing Power)
With neutralizing power the student is able to guide their following power in a yielding manner, in order to counterbalance or make ineffective the attacking and defending ability of an opponent.

Ce Jing (Borrowing Power)
Through borrowing power, the student is able to utilize an opponent's power by adapting it to purposes that are beneficial to the student's own designs. When an opponent attacks with, say, ten pounds of force, the student not only neutralizes (yields) but also borrows that force into his foot and reflects it back to the opponent, often at such an angle that the opponent is tossed away by largely his own power. In Luohan Quan this power is used at "An Jing" level for every move that appear as a block at "Ming Jing" level.

Ying Jing (Drawing-up Power)
Should an opponent refuse to transfer power, the student is in the situation of having no power to borrow from. In such a situation it is up to the student to cause the attacker to yield his power so that it can be utilized for reflection back to the opponent. This process is known as drawing-up power from an opponent. A lot of this may just be psychology and reflex.

Di Jing (Uprooting Power)
The ability to cause an opponent to bounce backward and upward, thereby making him lose his root to the ground, is known as uprooting power. When used in a more moderate fashion, i.e., by keeping peng in an upward direction to the opponent's center, this power will cause him to float. In Luohan Quan this power is used to prepare counterattacks and throws, usually combining the power of the arms with the power of the stance / hips.

Chen Jing (Sinking Power)
By reversing the practice of uprooting power the student is able to develop the ability to sink using it against an attempt to uproot him. Success in sinking power development can cause one's opponent to feel that it is impossible to uproot the student. The relaxed, connected body is the source of this.

Na Jing (Controlling Power)
Controlling power is applied during Rolling Hands practice or Free Hand practice. The student will try different methods to take over control of the situation and eventually lock the opponent into a position which will defeat him. The constant and skillful use of peng and connection are what power this skill. In Luohan Quan we all call this power the "trapping power" as it allows to lead the opponent in a way / posture that is uncomfortable and unstable.

Kai Jing (Open-up Power)
This is the application of internal power in such a manner as to cause an opponent who has maintained a defensive position for an extended period of time to open up his defenses and thus be defeated. Psychology and reflex in relation to the opponent are vital for this.

He Jing (Close-up Power)
In this case the student directs his internal power inward in such a manner as to cause an opponent to react by closing-up toward his center as a means of defense. In the process of closing-up, it is possible to trap the opponent because he is so drawn in toward his balance point that there is no way that he can move outward; thus the student is able to control the situation and defeat him. This is the perfect power to use against a bully opponent, attracting him to a "unprotected" area and then let him crash against a hard part of your body (knee, elbow, shoulder, ...)

Po Jing (Deflecting Power)
This is a specialized development of internal power. In applying deflecting power the practitioner is able to bounce an attacker to the side, or divert his force, to bring the student out of danger. Here the skill of controlling not only your own peng but the opponent's force vector (whether he uses peng or not) is critical.

Zhou Jing (Rubbing Power)
This transfer of power is achieved through a rubbing motion of the hands or other parts of the body. The motion used is similar to that of rubbing clay between the palms to form a long rope or coil. Often, qinna are applied with this for attacking opponent's muscles.

Fa Jing (Exploding Power)
This transfer of power is achieved through a burst of energy, releasing power suddendly and "overloading" the opponent. At "ming jing" level, this power is used for every "attacking" moves of Luohan Quan.

Ce Jing (Twisting Power)
When applying internal power in this manner, the student twists an opponent in an action similar to that of wringing out a wash cloth. This type of power is used to lock an opponent into a position where he can be easily defeated or just keep it secured. The internal version of this well known move different in that it relies on physical law rather than muscle power.

Zhuan Jing (Spiral Power)
Because of this screwing motion, this type of power transfer is sometimes referred to as screwing power. It is the base of Chan si Jing (silk reiling power)Mainly use in Baguazhang this power is used in every turning move of Luohan Quan, transforming a possibly weak posture into an even more powerful motion. Of course a good grounding and lower body strength is required.

Ci Jing (Cutting Power) or Heng Jing (Crossing Power)
This type of power transfer, is a clean, sharp cutting type of motion which is applied to an opponent from the side in order to disable or interrupt an attack. Used with Zhuan Jing this can produce extremely powerful moves which can inflict heavy damages.

Duan Jing (Interrupting Power)
Interrupting power usually refers to the skill of "leaving the jing in the opponent.... mainly so no return which borrows" your power can be used. This skill is very hard to train and requires a very trained mind.

Cun Jing (Inch Power)
Sometimes called short-power.... the ability to release great power with very little motion. The most famous martial artist using this power is of course Bruce Lee (the famous one inch punch), to achieve the maximum power, Zhuan Jing, Fa Jing and Ying Jing are required.


Zuo Te Jing (Folding Power)
Folding power usually implies the skill of folding the body and hitting with the closest body part, using fa jing. For instance, if an opponent holds your wrist, hit him with Elbow using fa jing or cun jing; if he holds your elbow, hit him with shoulder (Kao) or hip, etc.

Ling Gong Jing (Distance Power)
This is the power of supposedly hitting without touching from a distance. I've personally never experimenced this power, but I've felt "energy projection" (perceived as warm feeling moving accordingly the expert's will and motions). BTW before even reaching that level there is a lot of work with all the previous Jing.

[count]

Originally posted by Lowlynobody

If its all in the waist I take it fau chun tun tou doesn't work?

BTW, I didn't say it was all in the waist, I said it starts in the middle.;)

[Lowlynobody]

No I was implying many of the things you mentioned. Without a strong, aligned, rooted stance you can not have a solid base. Who said anything about needing big muscles?

I don't need to move my feet to generat power. They are already connected to the source and drawing power from the ground whenever I root my stance into the ground.

Yau Kung Mun power generation:
Rooted stance
Posture to creat power - hum hung bart boy
Main power generation - Fau Chum Tung Tou
Luk Ging - 6 co-ordinates in alignment
Shock power or Geng Jek Ging

I notice your styles include internal systems and Northern. My experiance is with southern. Perhaps this explains the disagreement. Though if you can put a hole in somone then more power to you. Pun intended :)

[Lowlynobody]

........it starts in the middle.

Hummm, this comes very close to what I have been taught. Though to quote my sigung - "You are only as strong as your horse." So I would say our opinions are the same in some respects and differ in other ways.

Those jings you listed look to me to include alot of methods to generate power through contact with the opponent, using their force and intent against them or redirecting it etc. The power generation I'm talking about is purely from the use of the practioners body.


Lowlynobody.

[count]

It's not a disagreement, it's a discussion.:cool: The experience I have in my profile is only with my current teacher. I also have some experience with a southern system, 8 years with another northern style teacher, and experience in another non-CMA too. Jeez, I'm getting older by the minute. :( But I do have a base for comparison. I know what you are saying about borrowing energy from the ground. Well, using the resistance from the ground as a springboard can be useful. But where does the power start if you have left your feet? Do you borrow from the air? If the power has to come form the ground up it takes to long. Like my teacher says, "If I need a little extra cash, I just go to the ATM, I don't go all the way downtown to the main branch.":D

[MightyB]

See my previous posts. ;)

Count, right on.

Jing is Jing is Jing is Jing is Jing is---- get the point.

After awhile, all jing is the same. The names and divisions are made up.

[Lowlynobody]

Us southerners have an aversion to leaving the groud - its part of the fighting theory. Unlike you northerners who like to leap about :).
Though occasionaly we do break contact with the groud. A soild connection to the earth is fundermental in many southern styles. If I may ask - what southern style did you study?

Also drawing energy from the ground doesn't take any time at all if you are doing it constantly.

Mind you I tend to forget that not everyone knows Yau Kung Mun and thus have different thoughts on matters. When I see or read something I think in YKM :)


Jing is Jing is Jing is Jing is Jing is---- get the point. After awhile, all jing is the same. The names and divisions are made up.

How is Fau Chum Tung Tou the same as Fa Ging or Luk Ging? From my point of view I can't agree. Though I can say that many gings can (and should) combine to produce a large amount of power. Is this what you mean? They all become one in the end? While this may be (or is) the case each ging in your system should be developed else a technique that uses a certain ging will lack true power.

Lowlynobody

[MightyB]

Us southerners have an aversion to leaving the groud - its part of the fighting theory. Unlike you northerners who like to leap about

This is what I'm talking about. The stereotypes are such BS. I do 7* Praying Mantis. It's a Northern style. We are 90% hands, with low to mid kicks. Where's the flying in that? I've seen Jow Gar (southern) stylists leap and tumble and kick way more than us Northerners. The point is these Northern/Southern/Internal/External differences are made up. The styles aren't that different from each other. Bagua is probably the most unique of the styles, and don't say it's because it's an internal style because it's way different than xing yi or tai chi also.

[MightyB]

about the jing is jing...

Once you've learned the coordination to do one, then performing all types of jing is easy and is done subconciensly. If you have Jing, you have jing-- end of story.

Again, watch masters demos. You'll see a xing yi guy or a tai chi guy with jing, and you'll see some that don't have it. You'll also see wing chun guys, praying mantis guys, or hung gar guys that have jing also, and it will look the same as the "internalists". Jing is Jing.

[fa_jing]

The end effect has to be the same - to strike with power and impact. However, there are many different ways to move your body to achieve this. I think you are looking at the result and seeing the same thing, but the methods used for producing that result are different. And some methods don't mix well with each other.

[MightyB]

I often forget that a person would have to do a high-level martial art to understand me.

This is one of the best descriptive webpages of 7* Praying Mantis Kung Fu that's written in English:

Praying Mantis (http://www.authentickungfu.com/lowbandwidth/seven_star/explanations.html)

I don't often agree with the guy who published the page, but it is well written and very accurate. Pay particular attention to the 12 soft ways. After you peruse this page, you'll start to appreciate why a Seven Star Praying Mantis guy can say "Jing is Jing".

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by MightyB
I often forget that a person would have to do a high-level martial art to understand me.


That's classic. I'm gonna have to use that one. :D

[Lowlynobody]

MightyB - I like the way you twisted my answer to count's question -


I know what you are saying about borrowing energy from the ground. Well, using the resistance from the ground as a springboard can be useful. But where does the power start if you have left your feet

That was well done. What was a lighthearted reply becomes a stereotyping misconception.



Once you've learned the coordination to do one, then performing all types of jing is easy and is done subconciensly.

You must be a much more talented person than all those (and I) out there training their ass off to develop power.


I often forget that a person would have to do a high-level martial art to understand me.

I take it you don't consider Yau Kung Mun or Bak Mei a high level art? What is a high level art anyway?

Well seeing as you can recognise ging when you see it. Tell me, does this person have ging?

Sek Ze (http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/images/External%20Forms/Sek%20Sze%20384.wmv)

Lowlynobody.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

" take it you don't consider Yau Kung Mun or Bak Mei a high level art?"

i thought he meant that you had to be a very high level martial artist, in any art, to comprehend his divine message. text can be deceiving though, and pot doesnt help. either way im pretty sure he said your stupid and your mom's a wh ore. go get em.

[Lowlynobody]

lol @ GDA

[dnc101]

Originally posted by count
I think you are mistaken. Power comes from the waist area and pushes down first. It pushes up at the same time. Particularly in the "so called internal" CMA. Power is stored in the dan tien and pushes out in all directions. The trick is having the alignment to make the power count.

I checed your profile, and I'm willing to defer (yield) to 20+ years experience (I'm a begginer in TCC). Let's just say that that is where my understanding is at this point. If you have good root and structural allignment there is no travel from the ground up- it is already there. Energy is collected at and distributed from the Tan Tien.

As for TCC being quicker: that is a result of its' maintaining a good root and the hips leading all movement and allways being in motion. The next move is started as the last one completes. In Kenpo we use that principle, but not to the extent that TCC does. The difference is minimal, but I think it exists. And, as I said earlier, you can do external arts using internal principles. I'm looking forward to getting to the point that I can do that spontaneously.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i dunno i kinda see it like this ...

you must have a good root ... da da da da ... its crutial to learn to root ... da da da da da ...you must root for power .... da da da da .. power doesnt come from the ground.

[Lowlynobody]

You saw that to huh? It could be just that I’m crazy and your on weed.......nahhh! :p

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i forget.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

you know im probably not qualified to say ... but fu ck it.

i feel that the root can always bee deepend and the deeper the root the harder i punch. the mindset of drawing energy from the earth helps you sink deeper and deeper. i dont see how this takes longer either. the power behind every strike is still coming directly from the tantein while my feet (or foot) continue to draw from the earth.

i know that this works, but im not sure if its much more than a mindset. i haven't physically seen them, but i figure other mindsets/meathods work just as well. i don't agree with everything he says, but i see where mightyb is coming from in that it's all the same once you reach a certain level.

[count]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
i feel that the root can always bee deepend and the deeper the root the harder i punch.

That sounds like you're saying root means a good, strong base. I think we're confusing root for ground path when it comes to power issue. You should not have to stop and plant to get power at all. In fact, in bagua we never stop until it's over. We train to develop "moving root" and a strong ground path. Root is not so much the ability of having a strong base as it is the ability to yield without giving up space. It's the ability to direct outside force though your body with out disruption of balance. Ground path is the alignment between the ground and the top of your head or the end of your fist. If the ground path is broken or weak, there will be little or no power. In the beginning, we are given some visualizations like draw the energy up from the earth and press your head to the sky. I don't personally think you should take that in a literal sense. I think it's intended to pull your body into a posture that will align your head through all the points to the feet. This is one method of aligning your ground path, but than, what happens when you move? In a fight you move constantly, unless you practice a more linear style than Kung Fu. (Let's not start debating the meaning of linear here, maybe later) The key is to maintain that alignment when you are moving. Here's where you have contradicted yourself:

the power behind every strike is still coming directly from the tantein while my feet (or foot) continue to draw from the earth.
If you think about it, while you are punching or pushing your fist forward, you are also pushing the leg backward. The power actually moves in both directions at the same time from waist if you want to call it that. As an attempt to clarify as I have discussed with "Lowlynobody" the dan tien is not near the ground, it is in the middle where I said power starts from. What Mighty B seems to be saying is power starts at the waist. I don't presume to speak for him but, when the Chinese teachers say "waist" the tend to be speaking of the entire middle section of the dan tien, the kuas (front and back), hips, and not just be speaking of the belt line. To get greater power into your strikes you have to strengthen this area. It's like putting money in the bank. Like my teacher often says, "if you want to make an expensive movement like that, you have to have a lot of chi in the bank".

[count]

Originally posted by dnc101


I checed your profile, and I'm willing to defer (yield) to 20+ years experience (I'm a begginer in TCC). Let's just say that that is where my understanding is at this point. If you have good root and structural allignment there is no travel from the ground up- it is already there. Energy is collected at and distributed from the Tan Tien.

As for TCC being quicker: that is a result of its' maintaining a good root and the hips leading all movement and allways being in motion. The next move is started as the last one completes. In Kenpo we use that principle, but not to the extent that TCC does. The difference is minimal, but I think it exists. And, as I said earlier, you can do external arts using internal principles. I'm looking forward to getting to the point that I can do that spontaneously.
You are correct. Energy is distributed from the dan tien. So were are closer in agreement now. Because orignally, I think you said from the ground up? ;)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

count ... i don't think i made myself very clear. this can happen when you post right after smoking a bowl.

"I think we're confusing root for ground path when it comes to power issue."

not really ... i have never called it ground path before, but i know what your talking about. when i say root, i mean root .... doesn't matter if your standing still, up on one leg, doing a half moon step, or mid kick, you should always be rooted.

"....yield without giving up space"

i hear that a lot from sifu. especially the not giving up space part.

"we are given some visualizations like draw the energy up from the earth and press your head to the sky. I don't personally think you should take that in a literal sense."

agreed ... its a mindset. but i think its one that becomes internalized rather than dropped as you advance. i could be wrong about that though.

"If the ground path is broken or weak, there will be little or no power"

right ... thats what me and lowly nobody have been saying

"while you are punching or pushing your fist forward, you are also pushing the leg backward. The power actually moves in both directions at the same time from waist"

right ... so the more you are rooted, the more force you are able to push back against the force of the punch, thus more energy gets added back into it


"the dan tien is not near the ground"

where did that come from? i was taught the lower tantein is your exact center.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by count

You are correct. Energy is distributed from the dan tien. So were are closer in agreement now. Because orignally, I think you said from the ground up? ;)


I think people say the ground because you need some type of root before you can strike. If someone has you lifted off of the ground and off balance, how hard can you hit them? When you bench press, you get more power into your lift when the feet are firmly planted on the ground. root and power issue generally go hand in hand. Maybe there was some confusion of where it actually starts.

[brassmonkey]

I'm a beginner but seeing as that doesnt stop anyone else I'll post too.

"A) Is there really a difference between most styles' methods of generating power?"

As far as I can tell there's several different ways to generate power, some similiar some very dissimiliar

"b) if these methods are really different, then would they be interchangable with various techniques?"

I'd say yes, however different techniques can be used in different ways using very different strategies depending on the art.

"Or, to put it another way: Are the methods of generating force tied to a specific style's particular techniques or are they more fluid? Is there any reason I couldn't, let's say, take Tai Chi's particular "brand" of power generation and use it to throw a jab?"

Go for it, you have my permission, I really don't know if this would be a tcc strategy but sounds good to me.

"Am I making sense?"

Yeah good points, I have to concur with what your getting at in my own limited experience.

[TAO YIN]

Ging is just ging but there are many different types of it and it is one thing to be able to show it and another to be able to use it in a fight. Its not a surface punch. These masters you are talking about going and watching, their power (ging) looks like it comes from the ground sometimes right? Like a wave? I am not saying that power only come from the ground up, but it is important to have a strong root. One reason is because the first thing to go in a street fight is the legs. Another reason rooting is important is because of this:

Im rushing towards you, as soon as I get in good punching range, jump into the air and punch, if i deflect your hand your gonna probably land on your ass before its all said and done with.

Ok now Im rushing towards you, as soon as I get in good punching range you, grip your feet to the ground, pivot your ankle, lock your knees and make your stance firm, pivot and torque your waist (dan tien) align every joint, contract every sinew, have intent on punching a hole through my head, and bam...well at least this way you wont land on your ass, and if you connected its not going to be a little surface shot for me, im gonna freakin feel it.

Regardless of style, power is proper body mechanics complementing good timing, speed, and gravity. For true organ penetrating power to work from a stand still position, there has to be a rooted stance, joint linkage through principles and techniuqe, yin and yang, intent, and a few others.

i have no idea what i just said.


TAO YIN



"im going to eat mayonaise"

[brassmonkey]

Ooops looks like I repeated what was in the first couple posts.

"that a master with jing has a presense. "

I think Austin Powers calls it mojo.

This thread alone shows different power generation from different posters or me perceiving different ways its hard to tell on the net or what people mean sometimes.

As far as I have learned in the tai chi I practice the power doesnt go in every direction from the dantien like Count said, maybe it does and im not aware of it or havent gotten to that level. I don't intend to be insulting because I really have no clue but it seems like that method would lose power in all but the direction your striking into?

From my limited experience of Tai Chi it is sort of the opposite of a lot of Shaolin. Shaolin seeks to harden the body while tai chi seeks to soften it. This softness imparted is important for power generation in that it uses a coiling power. By softening alot of the muscles, tendons, etc. there is more of a compression available with softer tissue and uncompression to hit your opponent with. Twists down into the ground like a screw would and back up. As far as I know its only as slow as your mind. The softening will help with listening skill imho also.

Tai Chi Chuan's speed I would think might be an illusion mostly. Its the yielding that may put your body in a weird position and not able to see the strike coming from the tai chi player and/or the strike might be so short you may think that was god**** fast. However as relaxing is at the heart of tai chi this should make you a bit quicker too ;)

[MightyB]

This is too fun:


either way im pretty sure he said your stupid and your mom's a wh ore. -- GDA referring to my post

Here's one for you all:

Chi is guided by Yi. That's pretty much sums it up. ;)

[MightyB]

Well seeing as you can recognise ging when you see it. Tell me, does this person have ging?

No, he's caucasian ;)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

yi is mind right?

[MightyB]

yi is mind right?

Yes

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by brassmonkey

From my limited experience of Tai Chi it is sort of the opposite of a lot of Shaolin. Shaolin seeks to harden the body while tai chi seeks to soften it. This softness imparted is important for power generation in that it uses a coiling power. By softening alot of the muscles, tendons, etc. there is more of a compression available with softer tissue and uncompression to hit your opponent with. Twists down into the ground like a screw would and back up. As far as I know its only as slow as your mind. The softening will help with listening skill imho also.


There are hard styles that use coiling power. some systems of longfist use it, as well as systems of mantis. I'm sure there are more also.

[fa_jing]

I understand what Count was saying, but some types of jing do originate from the ground. For instance, our basic advancing straight punch initiates with a push off of the back foot. While our turning punch originates form the waist/hips, and travels in both directions as you said. (wing chun)

PS nice YKM vids

[count]

What is it that pushes your foot into the ground? Where does that push come from?

SevenStar is right on. Longfist and Mantis speak about Chan Su Jin and most styles have it but don't speak about it.

Brass Monkey, what syle of tai chi chuan do you do where the dan tien isn't considered to push out in all directions?

TaoYin. You lost me there. Are you saying that root is a strong base where you lock your ankles and clench your feet to the ground? :confused:

Com'on guys, doesn't anyone want to talk about real spine power. Twisting, bowing, open, close, shrimping, whipping, dragon back..........................
.....................................

[fa_jing]

Count - I see your point, but still would make a distinction between these two types of Jing. When we push off with the back foot, I would say the force originates in all parts of the leg simultaneously, based on the instructions coming from the brain. This force travels, of course, both up and down. Simultaneous to this issuing of force, the hand begins to move, and a slight movement initiated by the waist/kua adds to the force. So the force is generated almost from head to foot simultaneously and travelling in two directions, BUT, the emphasis is on the driving force of the leg, especially at the beginning of the movement. Whereas with the turning punch, the emphasis is more on the muscles of the waist, hips and lower back, and the feeling of initiation is more in the Dan tien area.

Good point, though.

[count]

Originally posted by MightyB

Chi is guided by Yi. That's pretty much sums it up. ;)
True, I think, where does "Yi" start?;)