Gene & other KF Scholars Please Read:

[diego]

Not to sure if this is the right forum, but i would like to find out what styles the ching trained in. Since shaolin in legend was about rebelling agianst the ching and so much is written on shaolin, it would be nice to know what thier opponnents were studying. What happenned to the remaining ching kf'ers after The Last Emperor...Did the red-mao's kill them or what?.
Any details is much appreciatted:).

[Ming Fai]

But I would like to share few bits of info.

Tibetan Lama-Pai claims to be the Imperial Martial Art during the Qing, mainly because the Manchu royal family was said to be followers of Tibetan Buddhism. But actually apart from Tibetan Buddhism, the Qing also had their native Shamanism and other religions. Both Emperor Shunzhi and Emperor Yongzheng were Zen Buddhist. For as far as I know, there are no records of Manchu princes training Lama-Pai.

Legend has it that the Bajiquan master Wu Zhong defeated the son of Emperor Kangxi. He then became the private teacher of the prince and stayed at the prince's residence.

In more recent history, Baji expert Huo Diange was the bodyguard and martial arts teacher of the last emperor Puyi. Huo Diange was related to Jingwu founder Huo Yuanjia and the disciple of Li Shuwen (teacher of the late Liu Yun-Chiao).

Baguazhang founder Dong Haichuan was also said to have been the coach and bodyguard of the Manchu elite in Beijing.

Of course, the Manchu have their own native martial arts, like Manchurian wrestling and a style called the Black Hand, which was developed during the beginning of the Qing dynasty by a Manchurian martial arts expert after having studied many styles of kungfu. I read this in an article of mr. Liang Shou-Yu a few years ago, but I can't remember any specific details.

Last I want to say that there's this very funny thing among kungfu styles: Southern kungfu styles always claim to be descended from revolutionaries who fought the Qing, they almost always have one or two famous rebels in the beginning of their lineage. While Northern styles often prefer to be connected to the Qing rulers and see themselves as imperial martial arts.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Southern styles say their art descended from one of the five ancestors (the five monks who escaped the destruction of the Southern Sil Lum Temple). These five monks made an oath to overthrow the Ching...so in this sense they were revolutionaries, but also much more since they were Shaolin Monks.

GHD

[Tainan Mantis]

Ming Fai,
Wu Zhong defeated Kangxi's son?
That would be near the beginning of the Ching dynasty.
Where is this recorded?

[Ming Fai]

To Gold Horse Dragon:

Yes, I only wanted to point out the difference between Southern and Northern styles, that is:
South = anti-Qing history + lineage
North = pro-Qing history + lineage


To Tainan Mantis:

This was written in "An Outline of Chinese Martial Arts History" (Zhongguo Wushu Shi Lue) by martial arts historian Matsuda Ryuji. Right now I don't have the book with me, but I can look up the details for you at home if you're interested.

[TenTigers]

Kinda weird, don't you think? Styles like Hung-Ga, Choy Li Fut,Wing Chun were developed to fight Bagua,Mi Tsung, and Baji. I bet alot of Northern/internal guys would be rather perturbed.

[r.(shaolin)]

Good posts Ming Fai.
your points, concerning northern styles

[GeneChing]

That's actually a pretty big question and I don't really have an answer off the top of my head. You'd have to follow the various generals to follow the styles of the Qing Dynasty. I've been doing a little research into the Ming to Qing generals lately, but I don't have anything on the Qing to PRC. Each general is a story on to himself. Lately I've been researching Koxinga and his effect on Taizu and Hung men. My boss Gigi just came back from a research trip to Taiwan, so I'm undertaking a crash course on this period.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Gene,
Did Gigi come to Tainan?
I would have liked to have spoken to your boss about this interesting history.
Places where Koxinga lived are near my home.
Kai Yuan temple was built for his mother and is now a Buddhist temple. One of my shr hsiung was a monk there for quite some time.

Every historical artifact has been rebuilt and doesn't look like it did 100 years ago. But there are some old photos of how these places used to look.

[Crimson Phoenix]

aaahhhhh yyeesssss!

It is this kind of thread that makes me come back here regularly, painfully enduring pointless threads about bacon sammiches, my sifu is tronger than yours and "I-almost-got-into-something-that-could-possibly-end-up-in-a-dispute-where-I-could-have-been-hurt-a-little"...

*bows to the high-quality posters in this thread*

[Ming Fai]

To r.(shaolin) :


These differences were shaped by historical context.The so called foreign dynasties (ie. Chin, Yuan, Ching, etc.) made efforts to win over the Chinese.

I would like to add the fact that already since the 4th century AD Northern China has been (partly or completely) ruled by foreign ethnicities.

- Eastern Jin 317-420: Northern China ruled by Five different tribes including Huns and Tibetans
- North & South Dynasties 386-581: Northern dynasties were established by the Xianbei tribes
- Sui Dynasty 581-618: Imperial House was part Xianbei, part Han
- Tang Dynasty 618-907: Tang Imperial family was of Turkish origin
- Period of Five Dynasties 907-960: North was ruled by Shatuo tribe
- Northern Song 960-1127: North was the territory of the Khitan Liao Empire, after the fall of the Liao the whole Northern heartland was conquered by the Yürchen Jin

So in addition to the points you've mentioned, Northern China has an even longer history of non-Han governance. It is pretty safe to say that, to the Northern Chinese, being ruled by foreigners was the most normal thing in the world.

[GeneChing]

Gigi did visit Taiwan. She was raised in Taiwan, but was there as part of the Martial Arts Media Tour sponsored by The Taiwan Tourist Board (TTB.) It was very fruitful. You'll see lots of this research coming out in our next few issues. The TTB set up a tour that was any martial artist's fantasy - lining up dozens of traditional masters. We got it all on video and are transcribing it to articles. Great stuff.

[diego]

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
aaahhhhh yyeesssss!

It is this kind of thread that makes me come back here regularly, painfully enduring pointless threads about bacon sammiches, my sifu is tronger than yours and "I-almost-got-into-something-that-could-possibly-end-up-in-a-dispute-where-I-could-have-been-hurt-a-little"...

*bows to the high-quality posters in this thread*

My sentements exactly...As Gene mentioned this is a rather wideranging question, wich i was frankly not to sure would get many replys. Plus the fact i havent been posting to much, but, when i finally thought up a good post...The fine level of comments Highly added to my surprise:)
Thankx You Guy's. Yall have given me many names to continue this highly interesting study as tianen mentioned "tianen i am sorry for not getting all those files to you, things became abit to hectic and then i moved, and now i dont have home internet access, So i am sorry for not fullfilling what i said;)"
Peace yall and keep posting...i'm just a bystander within these layers of kf discussion's.:cool:

[desertwingchun2]

Gene - First off I just bought the 10th anniversary dvd's. They brought back good memories of that awesome weekend!! Both of the dvd's were very well done. Anyone who buys them will not be disappointed. I digress ...

What kind of research have you been doing on Ming/Ching generals? Will you be sharing the info online as well as in the magazine?
Can't wait to read what you have either way.

-David

[Royal Dragon]

You said "Lately I've been researching Koxinga and his effect on Taizu and Hung men. "

reply]
I would be VERY interested to hear the results of your research on this subject. I just got some video in of 3 forms of Northern tai tzu, but they were suposedly incorperated into Fukien about 2-300 years ago, and now have a Southernised, Five Animalish influance on them. I would love some further details on that aspect of the styles history too, if you know anything.

By Hung Men, do you mean the Southern Hung Gar, or Northern Hong chaun?

Anyway, who was Koxinga? It is a name I have never heard, till now. I know a little about General Qi Jiguang, and his 32 move Tai tzu form, but little else, and certianly not Koxinga. Any light you could shed on this would be appreciated.

I have been told by some, that Tai Tzu Hong Chuan was also credited to the Emperor Chao Kuang Yin same as Tai Tzu. One source says that the first 4 shorter forms of the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan were developed by the Emperor himself, and the 6 longer sets by his descendants. Do you know anyway i could get another opinion of that one? I like to cross referance as much as I can.

It appears one of my Tai Tzu sources is infact teaching me Tai Tzu Hong Chuan, and not Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. The claim is they are one and the same styles, but I have the form names of both styles from a reliable source, and to me they seem to be two different styles, maybe with the same originator, but seperate systems none the less.

Anyway, I am interested in the evolution of both Tai Zu Chang Chuan, and Tai Tzu Hong Chuan now. Any help you can give would be great.