Home Made Forms

[ursa major]

[MightyB]

I'm curious if any of you have created your own forms ?

No

Do you think it is a good idea ?

No

Bad idea ?

Yes



Take the time to learn the actual system.

[mantis108]

I think it would be more fair if you would provide an segment of your form as an example before I comment on your creation.

Personally, I am not a big fan of creating new forms in this day and age because way too many people see forms as an end onto itself. Having trophy forms isn't going to help improving proficiency in the art if they are placed on the pedestal. Form is but a mean to an end. If it fails to inspire progress in the system, it certain is IMHO useless and impratical. I was highly critical of some masters in Mainland China creating new PM routine in order to conform with the Wushu movement (pun intended) , which I think I am not getting any brownie points with certain PM groups. However, I maintain my position that unless there is ground breaking concepts or principles that could push PM kung fu to a new height, more forms equal extra burdan to the proficiency of the art. I think 7* GM Wong Hon Fun once wrote "learning more equals accumulating debt that one is never going to clear". So there you go. :)

Mantis108

[ursa major]

Originally posted by MightyB
I'm curious if any of you have created your own forms ?

No

Do you think it is a good idea ?

No

Bad idea ?

Yes

Take the time to learn the actual system.

Hello MightyB,

Interesting. You have not created your own form however believe it is not a good idea. Is your position unconditional ? Would you be willing to elaborate ?

I've believe there are many ways to learn the 'actual system' -- is it not possible that this is one way ?

thx in advance,
UM.

[HuangKaiVun]

ALL forms were MADE UP the beginning.

They weren't handed to us by aliens or embedded into our genetic code. They were invented by people like you or me who needed a way to catalogue their favorite moves.

The concept that students cannot make up their own forms is antithetical to traditional kung fu teaching. Masters like Wong Fei Hung and Lau Fat Meng made up their own forms, among others. Heck, the Tzuranmen style demands that its students make up their own forms on the fly!

I deliberately made up my own sets because of the demands of reality fighting against resisting opponents. I've done away with the exaggerations and repetitions that are prevalent in Chinese martial arts, that which Bruce Lee called "the classical mess".

That's why I have a set called "chair" in my art. In real life, a person can get attacked when he's in a seated position.

[Oso]

my first sifu had a set of 'forms' that were the attacker you had
to deal with instead of you defending and attacking.

we had to learn the attacks, which were intended to represent
attacks from different ranges and angles to different
gates/targets, and respond to them with the theories we knew.

It was a different way to learn for sure. As a newbie you had to
work against a 6 attacker set and they went up in 3 attacker
increments as you became more proficient.

If we were to do this several times in a row, we had to devise
new defences to the same attack each time.

btw, this wasn't a mantis system.

I agree with mantis108 that creating forms should not be done
to conform to something (like gov't endorsed ma) nor that they
should be done whimsically (not saying you are ursa m.) and I
agree wholeheartedly with HKV in that the traditional forms were
created by people that we now recognize as being phenom's of
cma. I think I've read several times that a lot of systems in 7*
systems were not recognized as systems till the generation
after. This says to me that maybe the brilliance of what the
retroactively recognized creator of a new system did to create
that system wasn't immediately lauded by his peers.

Maybe UM's forms are cr ap, maybe they aren't. It would be very
cool to see what you've done. But, I'm not sure I'd want to post
something like that here...it's a tough crowd.;)

But, I say keep it up. Irrelevant of who you learned it from what
you have is yours now.

just my .02

Matt

[ursa major]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
ALL forms were MADE UP the beginning.

... That's why I have a set called "chair" in my art. In real life, a person can get attacked when he's in a seated position.

Hello HuangKaiVun,

I have a short set I call "Bank Machine" which is just that -- a form consisting of responses should you be accosted while transacting at your local ATM. Pretty basic stuff but nonetheless worth practicing, worth thinking about. I like your chair idea I'll have to think about that for awhile and see what I come up with.

thx,
UM.

[Frogman]

Well I can’t say that I have ever developed my own form but I have taken different parts of many forms and mixed them together. I also like to take some of the line drill basics that I don’t have in any of my present forms and mix them into a routine so that I can remember them. I feel it is good to experiment with my techniques, and trying different combinations. I am a long way from developing forms or even techniques. I do have one routine that I made up for tournaments but I do it mostly for the fun of it. One thing I also do is remember the difference between my routine and my forms.

RibHit
fm
:cool:

[MightyB]

Hi all,

Considering that my master's father and teacher was a good friend and student to both Grandmaster Won Hun Fun and Grandmaster Lau Fat Meng, yeah, creating your own form is crap.

I've been studying 7* for over 9 years. I've forgotten more forms than most of the intermediate 3 to 5 year students even know. Every day I go to class, I am amazed at the breadth of insight that was put into the forms that we have in 7*. What could somebody who hasn't even trained in it add to it? You couldn't even possibly comprehend the depth and breadth of the existing forms without a legitimate, knowledgable, and skilled Sifu.

Here's something else to ponder:

Last Thursday, my Sifu had me play hands with one of my Sihing. Afterwords, he said relying on the forms is for beginners, that we (my Sihing and I) are in the concepts stage. I could learn a new form tomorrow, it won't add anything to my technique that I don't already have. It's putting it together and making it my own that matters now.

[Oso]

Last Thursday, my Sifu had me play hands with one of my Sihing. Afterwords, he said relying on the forms is for beginners, that we (my Sihing and I) are in the concepts stage. I could learn a new form tomorrow, it won't add anything to my technique that I don't already have. It's putting it together and making it my own that matters now.



might b, so how do you propose to explore the concepts?
why would mixing and matching forms and techniques you have
learned from your sifu not be a good way to explore and "make it
your own"

you're blasting this concept pretty hard but in the above
statement you are basically saying the same thing as everyone
else.

Matt

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I started creating my own form a long time ago but never finished it. I've created forms by starting with a base form I like and adding pieces from others. This is usually done for show or competition. I think it's a good idea because it helps you to explore your techniques and see how they fit together in other ways. Having the ability to create your own shows you have at least a basic understanding of those techniques but I suggest you keep them to yourself. You may look back a few years from now and see how much you didn't know then.

Forms aren't the end all to martial arts training. It's the techniques and principles that are the core. Once you understand them you can make up all the forms you want. Past Masters and system founders created forms to ASSIST in understanding the techniques and principles and to provide a database of them in a memorable format.

[MightyB]

you're blasting this concept pretty hard but in the above

Not at all.

The concepts are contained in the forms, but, they are concepts. Tainan or 108 can spell them out for you in Cantonese and English.

An Example in rough English: Fan Che Long, Praying Mantis Dense.

Another: Use soft to defeat hard, hard is used to kill. Soft carries hard.

This is a listing of technique names and terminology. Look at the translations of the 12 soft ways and you can get a rough idea of mantis ideology.

PM Terminology (http://www.authentickungfu.com/lowbandwidth/seven_star/explanations.html)

----

Tainan and 108 can probably recite all of the Poems, I don't speak Cantonese, so I can't.

[MightyB]

The moves are like the letters in the alphabet. The forms are the words. The concepts allow you to make the sentences, paragraphs, and books. You can use them to write text books or poetry.

[Oso]

although I think that continueing this discussion is pointless......

I wasn't talking about the praying mantis concepts themselves.

I was talking about the concept of taking those conepts and
playing with them in different ways.

You seem to be ignoring the history on NPM.

If Wong Long (or whoever) had not of combined attributes and
concepts of 17 different systems we wouldn't have NPM today.
Or, so the poem tells us.

With so many recognized branches of NPM all descended from
a single source it is obvious that many people have taken what
they learned and extrapolated slightly different concepts from
the orginal.

With so many different branches of cma in general the same thing
is shown.

You should learn everything your sifu shows you and make
sure you understand the concepts as he/she is presenting them.
But, as your sifu has shown you, there comes a time to put it all
together for yourself. There are different ways to do that and I
think that is the gist of ursa major's/HKV and my own posts.
But it's possible I have misinterpreted those gentleman's posts
so I'll just say that that is the gist of my posts.


matt

[Frogman]

As I do agree that the true form must be respected, I’m not sure I understand your point MightyB but we each have our own way of learning and understanding things. I look at a form as a way to understand how the techniques fit together, trying different thing is just one way of getting a better understanding of what works. In a fight situation I would hope that I can pull off the techniques I need without having to go through an entire form. And like Hua Lin Laoshi, I know a lot of people that put together routines for shows and so forth, using different parts of forms. Now, making up moves or trying to fit some skateboard move into a form and passing it on as a KF technique is defiantly out of the question. I will be asking my Sifu his take on this matter but I think he will tell me that it is not bad to experiment. One other thing that I have found is one of the best ways to learn is to make mistakes. When I help out with new students, mostly the kids class, the mistakes of my past are the easiest for me to see other make. If I had never made any mistakes then I would have a harder time recognizing when someone else does it. So trying different things and making mistakes can be good for the true form as long as you know the difference.

RibHit
fm

[MightyB]

I think that I'll go take a seminar on Hung Gar. No, Better yet, I'll buy a book of Hung Gar techniques. When I finish the book, I'll create my own Hung Gar form.

It's baseless garbage.

------

I'm not talking about not making kung fu work for you, internalizing and making it fit you is a big part of the process. The problem is that most people put the cart before the horse. They read two Bruce Lee books and think that they have to modify everything-- "cross the river, don't carry the canoe" Bruce Lee misinterpretations. "Cross the river" means learning whatever system you choose fully, "don't carry the canoe" means that after learning the system fully, then you adapt it to you. At best it takes 10 years of hardcore training in NPM to "cross the river".

------

Make up your gay forms. Just don't bring that sheit around me, and don't expect me not to call you out when you post here.

[Frogman]

I can see what your saying as far as just making stuff up but all the techniques that I use are straight out of forms I have learned or from basic that my Sifu has taught me. Now if someone is going to just make something up and pass it off as KF they are wrong for doing that but if I take what I have learned and play with the different moves how does that hurt anything? Talk about misinterpretation please explain why it is bad to use given techniques outside of their given forms.

PS I do not agree w/ this statement:

“When designing the forms I follow the traditional 'route' or 'road' pattern of the 7 Star forms. In fact the intent of my home-made form is primarily to highlight new 'ideas' that I have come across while studying existing, classical 7 Star forms, as well as to showcase known 7 Star techniques.

When I say 'new ideas' I mean techniques, sequences and/or methods that I have stumbled upon while studying classical forms, yet have not seen in any of the classical forms.”

Designing a form with new ideas no!
Having fun with techniques from your forms, well what the heck??

Oh, and just for the record I usually practice my forms as they were shown to me, every once and a while it is fun to mix things up a little, personal opinion.

Ok, is it time to come back out now…

RibHit
fm

[MightyB]

I think that you didn't read everything that I posted...


why it is bad to use given techniques outside of their given forms?

It's not.

You kind of have to use whatever technique is appropriate for the moment. The forms can't approximate that.

I was just stating that NPM has enough forms and that I'm sick of people learning Bung Bo at some seminar from some guy who isn't even a PM practitioner and thinking that they know mantis and that they suddenly have the divine inspiration to go on create new mantis forms. Show me something that's not in a Jet Yew or Say Lo Bun Da or Tong Long Chit Don or Moi Fa Kuen... get the point. They learn maybe 5 forms and they think that they know it all. Cripes, they're 6 years from even seeing the good stuff and they don't even know it. Anyhoo...

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Should an art student not try to paint a picture in the style of one of the masters?

I don't think anyone intended to add made up forms to the system. It's just another way of expressing what you've learned. How about making up a 2 man set or choreographed fight scene? You create a free-form fight scene everytime you spar.

His level of training and understanding will be reflected in whatever he creates. That's why I recommended keeping it to himself. He may be the only one that's impressed.

But who knows, maybe he has a genuine talent for such things.

[Frogman]

So then we agree, now we drink! :D

I did ask my Sifu about mixing forms up and he said it was common for shows and tournaments to keep people from copying them and then claming that they know your style, or something like that. I also agree that doing a technique in its original form will reveal a lot about that technique but feel that practicing different techniques together you can see what works and what doesn’t. Some things go together better then others. A better lesson to learn in class rather then on the street. I think it’s fun to try different things, you might learn something good you might learn something bad, if you don't try you learn nothing.

RibHit
fm

[Iron Wrist]

Back to the original subject, I too have created my own forms. I blended the hand techniques and foot-work of hsing-i with the internal aspects of Zui Quan and the leg techniques of northern dragon. The mixed set has helped imbed the techniques and movements into my body to the point that they become second nature. I still practice the forms to keep them fresh, but that is where the linear thinking stops. With the ideas and techniques firmly planted, my mind is allowed to focus on the fight, not the moves.

- Tao
;)

[Golden Arms]

Ok, I cant even stand to lurk in this thread any longer! IMHO, if you are making up new forms, that means one of TWO things, period! 1)You are letting your own ego take over and you think your system has no depth, in which case why are you studying it in the first place, go learn BJJ. or 2)You actually HAVE WORKED IT DAY IN AND DAY OUT FOR AT LEAST 7-15 YEARS, YOU RAN OUT OF NEW CONCEPTS AND "MASTERED" ALL THE MOVES FROM YOUR FORMS AND THE CONCEPTS, HAND TRAINING, LEARNING TO RELAX UNDER PRESSURE ETC. Now how many of you on here think you are falling into the 2nd group? Raise your hands..if not, then go back to your first form, do it for 5 years, and then tell me you still think you dont have anything left to learn...I think you will be pleasantly surprised. On that note, I go to school with a couple fellows that have been doing my system for over 30 years, and THEY still have not mastered all the movements or concepts, and I am pretty sure PM as well as most other forms of Kung Fu have the depth or close to it of Hung Gar.

My .02

[mantis108]

Hi Mighty B,

Thanks for the kind words. :) I think your posts reflected the fact that you have truly seen the beauty and scope of PM. If it is your Sifu or your mentor(s) who inspired you, my respects to him/them. If it is your own accord, my friend, you have a beautiful mind.

I also agreed with Mighty B on the view about Bruce Lee's stuff which simply is trading a set of problem with another. Yet people buy into it and hanging on every last word as if it were gold. If his stuff really is the ultimate of Kung Fu, we will have by now legions of JKD folks clearing up very single MA tournament and every military and law enforcement agency would be adding it into its curriculum instead of BJJ. Having said that I mean no disrespect for Bruce Lee and JKD. The man died and his art mostly went with him. What's left is but the residual image, a mirage if you will. Sadly, that opens the flood gate to waterdown Kung Fu further. People forget that his stuff is 10 times as simple but he trained 10 times as hard (that btw is but one path out of the many to get you there)! How many times have we hear the complains about Kung Fu people sparr like kick boxing? That is because many Kung Fu people don't pay attention to their styles' basics where the heart and soul of the styles is rooted (ie Go-Lu-Tsai for mantis). Instead they just wanted to "cross the river" faster by any means. That defeats the purpose of training in a traditional art which has very little to do with the "survival mode" anymore. If it is solely about self defense in a reality base training enviroment, you don't need to train day in day out for years to achieve that. If you do, there is something wrong (ineffective and unpractical) of what you are doing. If you don't have survival instinct, do you honestly believe that you can buy it with money? Using that as an arguement is more or less circumventing the real issue of seeking authentic and genuine instruction in a real Kung Fu style and not just a made up made believe cashcow. In other words, do Kung Fu don't fantasize Kung Fu.

Gloden Arms,

That's beautifully put also. :)

Regards

Mantis108

[MightyB]

Mantis 108 you're too kind.

You can probably see by my writing that the truth is that I'm kind've a jerk and don't represent my Sifu's (and my many Sihings') quality of character very well. All my Sihing and especially my Sifu and Sigung are probably among the best people I'll ever know. They are extremely humble and ever vigilante in their pursuits of martial excellence. I've never known martial artists that are so open minded and friendly as they are. It comes from my Sifu, and it came to my Sifu through his father who truly is the best example for a martial artist to aspire to and become like.



Someday I'll lose my ego, but, for now, it fits me.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I expected there to be some interesting discussion on this one but I'm surprised at the level of opposition.

'Here is the sacred form. You may look but do not touch.'

Golden Arms
1) I can't speak for the others but my ego has not taken over and I'm constantly amazed by what I find as I dig deeper and deeper into Wah Lum. The more I learn the more I realize how little I know.
2) I've been working it for 13 years and I'v barely scratched the surface. I've studied patterns that are common throughout the forms I've learned and studied the similarities and differences of the techniques within the forms. I've dismantled some of the forms and tried reassembling the component parts into sequences that I find interesting.

You can't have a form for every possible combination of techniques and I believe if you limit yourself to only the given forms your training will stagnate.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
...I expected there to be some interesting discussion on this one but I'm surprised at the level of opposition...


Hello Hua Lin Laoshi,

Well I did ask for comments good, bad or indifferent. So far it has been an entertaining if not revealing read ....

regards,
UM.

[HuangKaiVun]

I fall under your 2nd category, Golden Arms.

I'm a professional sifu of kung fu - "Huang Style Kung Fu" - among other things. I've trained in quite a few different martial arts HEAVILY, and now I'm doing this as a living. My students - some of whom are gun owners or military types - are learning this style from me so that they can defend themselves in real combat.

My credo, which I learned from my sifu, is that if it WORKS it WORKS. Anybody who feels that my art sucks just because I made it up for me - well, let them test my hands. Bruce Lee had the exact same attitude, which is why the JKD system has lasted long after he died.

In fact, that's why I have full confidence in my system. I TEST the system every day against my guys and others. Whatever weaknesses or errors I have are exposed via practice and application. One learns to keep his guard up after getting smacked in the head a few times.

No single style does it all. Even Hung Ga or Praying Mantis don't have solutions for the female who is awakened in bed by the rapist who is sitting on top of her and has a gun or knife pointed at her head. And I am a big fan of Hung Ga and Mantis techniques.


ursa major, I'd love to see your "Bank Machine" set. I don't use the ATM anymore, but the utility of that is very useful.

Personally, I don't have an "ATM" set in my arsenal because I've got enough techniques and reflex drills to get myself out of such situations without having to think.

Don't let anybody here or elsewhere dissuade you from bringing out the best in yourself.

Never forget that every single PM form was made up as well. If people like you and me didn't do that, PM wouldn't be what it is today - let alone exist.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
No single style does it all. Even Hung Ga or Praying Mantis don't have solutions for the female who is awakened in bed by the rapist who is sitting on top of her and has a gun or knife pointed at her head. And I am a big fan of Hung Ga and Mantis techniques.

Don't let anybody here or elsewhere dissuade you from bringing out the best in yourself.

Never forget that every single PM form was made up as well. If people like you and me didn't do that, PM wouldn't be what it is today - let alone exist.

Hello HuangKaiVun,

Thx for your comments.

IMO you have hit the proverbial nail on the head -- Martial Arts has to work for everyone or it works for no one. And I agree with your Sifu and your credo -- "if it works it works". Martial arts is after all a shopping trip by this I mean we pick up and keep what works for us and drop the stuff that does not work -- it is in our nature to do so and we all do it.

Thx for your encouragement although I'd have to say it is not likely that a few insults received on this thread will 'dissuade me'. The longer I practice martial arts the more respect I have for other martial artists, other systems and other ways of doing things -- even if we agree to disagree. My Martial Arts has been and remains ALL about what I can do to help the students. If by teaching MA I can help someone grow from fear of this world to courage to face it -- I am rewarded. If by teaching MA I can help a kid build self-esteem and stay off the street -- that is thanks enough. If by teaching MA I can help empower those who might otherwise be victims then IMO my martial arts -- including the occasional home made form -- will have accounted for itself.

regards,
UM.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Yesterday I made up another form*. Nothing fancy, just a nice short form for Chinese New Year shows. All WL techniques but not built from a base form. It's a very good thinking exercise however I really wasn't trying to maintain fighting logic in the form so I didn't go too deep. I wipped it up in about an hour after running through a few variations. It's for show only. A few months after New Year I probably won't remember it just like most of my made up forms.

I'm finding that the more I do this the easier it is to mix and match techniques on-the-fly. Years ago I would add or subtract a few moves in a form or use the beginning of one with the ending of another. Now I can throw individual techniques together instead of using long sequences. Mixing and matching techniques on-the-fly is basically fighting. So it seems to me that the ability to do this would go hand in hand with the ability to use your techniques in fight. Otherwise you're trying to make the fight fit the form and that only works in movies and 2 man sets.


*Note: No humans or animals were injured during the creation of this form and I don't expect any casualities during the public demonstration of it either. Forms creation is not hazardous to your health. :D