View Full Version : Non-Ch'ang Lineage

09-04-2000, 10:58 PM
Does anyone have any information on U.S. based, Shuai-jiao intructors that are not from GM Ch'ang Tung Sheng's lineage?

MonkeySlap Too
09-05-2000, 03:16 AM
The most prominent one I know of is Liang Shou Yu (I may not have the name right, I don't have his book in front of me), he wrote a book with Yang Jwing Ming called 'Kuai Chiao, the art of Chinese fast wrestling.'

It's Bao Din Kuai Chiao, just a little different from Chang's. There is also some guy doing Sambo in back.

Anybody know anybody else?

09-05-2000, 06:16 PM
Thanks Monkey, I have that book and I really
enjoyed it. He touched on a few concepts you don't see with alot of GM Changs students.
What do you think.

Self-Thinking Follower
09-06-2000, 03:56 AM
Gentlemen, for the record, Chang taught Bao ding Kuai Chiao! The nationalist refered to this and other systems of wrestling as Shuai Chiao.

Liang is a good teacher and martial artist but he has not listed his wrestling lineage. His book represented his San Shou Kuai Chiao. There was no mention in the book that he did Bao ding Kuai Chiao. I for one, eagerly await his book on traditional chinese wrestling to see what lineage his art comes from.

As to what aspects, are you talking about? also what students? Those in Taiwan or those in the U.S.? I know one of my mentors in Taiwan, was a senior student of Chang's and taught a very rare subsystem of chinese ground fighting refered to as Ti Men Gong. Other Chang students, in Taiwan teach Dog Boxing for ground fighting. Chang, himself I was told did'nt like going to the ground so when he taught his U.S. students, they never even threw him! Unfortunately Chang is dead and ca'nt be questioned, so all we have are his students word. We must decide who to believe and who not to.

As to other lineages, was'nt David Chow teaching in the U.S.? He was instrumental in developing the kung fu TV series. His book was based on Shuai Chiao from a teacher in Hong Kong. I'm not sure if it was Beijing or Shang Hai wrestling but the lineage decended from a famous mainland Champ. (Not Chang)

MonkeySlap Too
09-06-2000, 06:29 AM
Yeah, we know that Chang taught Bao Din Kuai Chiao. But there are aspects of training 'specific' to the Chang 'style' of Bao Din Kuai Chiao. Even though different students of Chang may interpret his material differently, or add other things, there are these unique training methods.

There is also aspects of another prominent style worked into the training methodology.

And no, I will not go into specifics, as understanding of these two things are one of the ways to tell if someone actually knows Chang 'style'.

Chang developed his method to reincorporate Shuai training into over all combative training. 'Chang' style should incorporate Ti, Da, Qin, and Shuai into it's San Shou, and not just be wrestling - although you can practice it that way.

(Of course, this is what I was taught - so let the fur fly - I wasn't there and everyone who was there has vatrying thoughts. But the teachers I have met from the Chang lineage all pretty much said these things.)

09-06-2000, 07:12 PM
Well put MonkeySlap.
And let me also add that I am very well aquainted with dog boxing, but the reason that the Grand Master didn't teach ground fighting wasn't because he couldn't be taken down, but rather due to the philosophies of the art as a whole.
Shuai-jiao is first a foremost a battle feild
system. It will not go to the ground by design.
Hence, the Poa Ting principle of "Once you are touched you are thrown."
With the throw meant to end the confrontation. If one ends up on the ground he gets up. Period. Any fighting done from that range is aimed at disengaging and getting to your feet. In the course of doing this you my incapacitate your opponent, but that is not the primary goal at this point.

I have noted many unique techniques that Liang used in his books which are not commonly found in Shuai-jiao from the GrandMaster's lineage, but this is just based on my expierience.

Self-Thinking Follower
09-07-2000, 04:27 AM
Gentlemen, I agree with many of your points but remember each new generation add things or changes things its called evolution. I can't say which person is to be believed, but in Taiwan, Master Chang often appeared in interviews and programs featuring martial arts and always claimed to teach "BAO DING KUAI CHIAO". He never really pushed his wrestling as Chang style, and his Tai-Chi was only called Tai-chi even until his death. It was here in the U.S. that the honorific term "Chang Chia" was added to his arts. Now I agree with this because like you I feel Chang's art evolved into something more than Bao Ding Kuai Chiao. Also Chang's personal lineup from his mouth and recorded for prosperity is that Shuai Chiao emphasises development in "Shuai, Da, Na, Ti". This is his lineup, other northern arts arrange the characters in a different order. If you notice Chang's lineup has "Throwing and Hitting" before "grappling and Kicking". I must concur that Shuai Chiao was a battle art and its philosophy was'nt to be taken down but in its 82 families of throws (as I was taught) there are quite a number of sacrifice throws which have you kneeling and lying on the ground. Its the highest skill to attain, to be able to touch and throw. Yes Chang had it, but look around most of his students are not there. It would'nt be right to say they're no good or dont do real Bao Ding Kuai Chiao because they lack Chang's level. Do you not agree?

09-09-2000, 11:30 PM
Self Thinking Follower - who did you learn from?

I would not say that his students do not have the touch and throw skill - look at David Lin of Atlanta Georgia or Dr. Wu. I met a guy named Jeff 10 years ago when visiting the OSU Kung Fu club, and he certainly 'had it'.

I haven't met a student of Chang's that teaches sacrifice throws - with the exception of Daniel Weng who also studied Judo and is just generally grappling focused.

Sacrifice throws were considered a bad choice for the battlefield, hence thier exclusion.

As far as the art being reffered to as 'Chang's' sure, these things often happen after a teachers death. Chang's art has some unique training methods. We seek to use them and teach them for what they are - Chang's version of Bao Din Shuai Chiao.

That does not mean that there is anything wrong with other schools of Shuai Chiao. We just happen to follow Chang's way.

I'm sure (and I have already observed this) that the different groups that evolved from Chang will grow and evolve into thier own distinct methods as time goes on.

09-10-2000, 01:01 AM
This is my out take on this:
The Grand Master was a student of several different Shuai-jiao schools. Like many masters of his time, he went on a martial pilgrimage in his youth and studied from many different sources. I have no doubt that he was aquainted with any and every range of fighting, and he
could most likely fight in all of them very well.
However, Shuai-jiao has a basic underlying statagey; Not to go the ground.
The postures and attitudes of the art are molded to that core idea.
This is not to say that a Shuai-jiao guy can't go to the ground. We just prefer not to for various reasons. So it is from that premise we train.
Therefore, my personal ground fighting system is tailored around my Shuai-jiao philosophies.

Self thinking Follower, I don't think Monkey or I ever insinuated that GM Ch'ang ever called his style Ch'ang Shuai-jiao or even made a distinction between his art (other than it being drawn cheifly from the pao ting camp).

What I did say (or at least try to say) was that his students all seem have an undelying commonality in the way they train and teach.
One such commonality is they don't do alot of "western style wrestling" attacks, such as single and double leg takedowns. (Something that was very prevalent in Liang's book.
This isn't to say that its not in the system.
It is. But you don't see it very much, if at all. That was the reson for my original post.

The Shuai-jiao I (and most of us)have learned
is very much Ch'ang derived.
As a student of the art, I would be very interested in another point of view not influenced by Ch'ang Tung Sheng.
That being said, I am interested in your point of view as well and appreciate your input. From whom did you train Shaui-jiao and did you trian dog boxing as well?

Self-Thinking Follower
09-10-2000, 02:12 AM
Gentlemen, since I have'nt seen you post who your actual Shuai Chiao instructors are, I do'nt feel compelled to name mine. I can't account for what your Shuai Jiao consists of, I can only state that in mine, sacrifice throws are found and my Sifu never studied Judo!, one such throw is pronounced "Tan Bien". Does the name sound familiar? its part of a larger family of throws. Perhaps you can ask your Sifu.

I know of David Lin, and yes he is very good but my post was in reference to Chang's level of touch and throw. I've seen David Lin and he was not on that level. Perhaps you disagree and thats okay.

If you are familiar with Shuai Chiao as a battlefield method, did your teacher instruct you in the Shuai Chiao weapons? Each one has two points and was the precursor of the so called "Yawara" stick. I wont go into details, but am curious of your battlefield training.

Self-Thinking Follower
09-10-2000, 02:31 AM
Valraven, no I did'nt do Dog Boxing but I have done Ti Men Gong, its a sub system my Sifu taught. My understanding is that he created it based on his fighting experience in Taiwan circa 1950's and on. I believe he even got a nickname "water cat" from his exploits on the ground. This was unheard of for Shuai Chiao practitioners. He did tell tell me that a "Dog Boxing" teacher did give him some advice on ground fighting while he was developing his. My take on his ground fighting; Shuai chiao and Chin na on the ground with different principles than straight up wrestling, naturally!

Self-Thinking Follower
09-10-2000, 02:47 AM
A note to non-posting readers, the David Lin I refer to as being good, IS NOT the David Lin in New York (Lin Chih Young). New York's David Lin, in MY OPINION, does'nt know Shuai Chiao and has NO SKILL! Now thats only my worthless opinion but if you believe otherwise then check out Atlanta's David Lin and tell me which one you would study under, for Shuai Chiao. Who is the REAL David Lin?
and who has tried to benefit from the real reputation, by using that name?

09-10-2000, 03:17 AM
Hm. I've posted my Shuai Chiao teachers name before - Dr. Brian Wu. I am a card carrying long time student of the ACSCA. So yes, David Lin in Atlanta is the real deal. While David Lin in New York is not the same man, I prefer to avoid putting people down in public. (Unless they are a criminal). I was an active competitor in ACSCA San Shou in the 80's and a coach and referee in the 90's. If you know David Lin from Atlanta, maybe I know you?

For that matter, Valraven, from whom do you hail? (Was that proper English?)

So- who is your teacher Self Thinking Follower? I'm just curious. I am always interested in different approaches to Shuai Chiao and Kung Fu in general.

Paul Skrypichayko
09-10-2000, 04:29 AM
Shuai Jiao sounds pretty interesting. I wasn't aware that you guys place emphasis on striking, kicking, and controlling (qin) techniques.

Do you know of any top level masters in Hong Kong in the last 30-80 years?

Self-Thinking Follower
09-10-2000, 05:12 AM
Monkey slap, you dont know me, I never went to competitions. Jeng, Sifu, That should help clear up some things. Your probably familiar with some of my classmates who did compete but they would be upset if I named them here, so I wont. I've never met your Sifu but I am familiar with his name as for Lin (of NY), its no secret that I consider what he has done CRIMINAL! My feelings are my own and do not reflect those of my Sifu or my classmates. Its just MY OWN personal issue with him and those like him. Perhaps you and the rest of those reading can forgive this flaw in my character.

[This message has been edited by Self-Thinking Follower (edited 09-10-2000).]

09-10-2000, 06:38 PM
Monkey, My Sifu is Daniel Weng.

Follower, While I have no doubt that there is some judo influence in GM Weng's Shuai-jiao,
I don't see it being very prevalent.
He is a true Shuai-jiao man and very dedicated to the art he learned from GM Ch'ang. I would be interested in hearing more
about your Shuai-jiao weapons training.

MonkeySlap Too
09-10-2000, 10:12 PM
Hey Valraven, I didn't mean to imply that Daniel Weng was putting a lot of his Judo into his Shuai Chiao. But on the few occasions I met him, he taught and discussed many techniques - including cleary stating that some were learned from practitioners of other arts. He is a real scholar of grappling and a great promoter of Chang's Shuai Chiao in particular. In terms of promoting the art, he has really done more top date in the US than anybody else and deserves some real credit for that.

Self Thinking - Jeng Hsing Ping? If so, you haver a teacher with a great reputation. I'd love to hear more about his approach and method of teaching.

You may have noticed that I am not interested in playing martial arts games - we are all here because of our common passion for this method, hopefully not to fight with each other (except on the mat /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.)

09-11-2000, 05:55 PM
No offense was taken my friend.
I always find myself on the opposite side of the fence. In that I mean, that when I am around non-kung fu stylists and they ask about Shuai-jiao I tell them that as a true fighting system. When they say it is like judo I explain why it is far supperior.
However, when I am with kung fu guys, I often find myself defending judo.
Judo as an olympic level sport is very evolved, as are the practioners' skill. And because of its wide spread popularity I would say that as far as "gi grappling" is concerned,
it has no equal. But that which makes it great is also its greatest weakness.
Shuai-jiao has no such short commings. Take away the garments and rules, and the holes in the judo fighter's arsenal becomes very apparent. And when you add strikes to the equation, Shuai-jiao widens the gulf even ****her.
IMHO, to really understand grappling everything should be examined.
I will also say that if it involves throwing or "impact fighting", if you find it in one system, you will also find it in Shuai-jiao.

Whenever I watch Jet Li's, Fists of Legend, I'm very entertained because in most of his scenes he is using pure Shuai-jiao and Chin Na. Its not because Jet is Grand Master Chang's long lost student, but because as a real martial artist he knows that to quickly end a fight in a battlefield situation, throwing hard and fast is the
way to go. So, on the screen it not only looks spectacular, but it is more realistic.

MonkeySlap Too
09-12-2000, 02:25 AM
Great response. Fist of Legend has also been high on my watch list.

Going back to an earlier comment, you mentioned that your Shuai Chiao didn't include many leg picks or double leg takedowns. Do you have any?

I learned a handful of techniques like these, and I am just curious if they were common to your school also.

Also - if you are near a Chinese launguage bookstore you can find books in Chinese with non-Chang lineage Shuai Chiao. I found one on the Beijing style like this. Other schools of Shuai Chiao are strictly wrestling. I also found a book called 'Shuai Fa' that was a manual for military techniques emphasizing throws.

09-12-2000, 08:30 PM
Yes, I do train these type of techniques alot. However, when I do, I make the techniques comform to the fighting stratagies
if Shuai-jiao. That is, I will not go to the ground with my opponent if I can help it.
I have seen guys from China use these kind of throws, so I know that they exist in the art.

You won't see many high level competitors use them because if your hand or knee touches the ground first, you lose the point.

This of course, doesn't concern me at all.
In my teaching/learning method, I have defined five major elements that make up a perfect Shuai Chiao throw.
Whenever I evaluate a technique that I may want to incorporate into my arsenal, I will look for these five elements. If the throw has enough of any of the five, I will use it in my Shuai-jiao.

Since I don't live in the same city as my Sifu, this method keeps my training on track.

As far as picks are concerned, we train them but only as a prelude to a true throw.
I will qualify this by saying that my Shaui-jiao is also very environmentally aware.
Meaning, if the pick just dumps you on the sand, then no. If it slams your head onto a curb, or over a cliff, then yes.
It is with this mentality I try to train. Also, because if the extreme nature, it tends to make me want avoid wanting to use it.
A very good philosophy to have when I am bouncing.

MonkeySlap Too
09-13-2000, 02:59 AM
Yeah, pretty much the same philosophy here. Some 10 years ago, when I used to bounce, I found that sometimes people would try to stiff arm me. (With the rule being I couldn't move first, I got very good at offering targets I could work off of.) In this case a headswing and a clip or leg pick worked very effectively - especially since I was just trying to take the fight out of the person and not hurt them.

Hey - what are the five factors you use to evaluate? - always curious.

09-18-2000, 02:59 PM
They are as follwed:
1.) The throw should be of enough impact to stop your opponent.
2.) The throw should incorporate a joint lock or chin na technique.
3.) The throw utilizes the principle of opposing force.
4.) The throw incorporates proper changing of levels.
5.) The thrower does not go to the ground with his opponent.

Not all throws will have all elements, but there will be enough of these to make the throw viable.