Anger / rage - should one use it in a fight??

[ricksitterly]

After reading the long arguments on this page about wether or not anger and rage will help you in a fight, I just wanted to give my opinion.

There are two basic ways to fight, most people are somewhere in between these two opposites:
1. To fight with your emotions, using anger and rage to fuel the body with the energy necessary to engage in combat. In a state of rage, which you may be familiar with, the mind can often disregard physical pain and has the adrenaline necessary to push the muscular capabilities to their maximum.
2. To remain cool and calm. The mind is fully alert, devoid of anger and emotion, you simply do what must be done. With no mental obstruction, you can react with quick, deadly resolve. The body is calm, and thus is more natural and fast in its movements.

Neither of these is "wrong" or "right". Either state of mind can make you a deadly person. If the body and mind are conditioned to fight a certain way, either method can win a fight. A true fighter knows how to fight Both ways, and all boils down to size, strength, speed, intelligence, and experience. Like Yin and Yang. A calm fighter vs. an angry fighter can be a very close battle. One can always exploit the others' weaknesses.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

several thread about this ... i think everyone missed afraid.

i aslo think its all dependant upon the situation. maybe i'm not as evolved or something, but i'm not sure that i always have a choice.

if you got the kind of rage built up toward someone that your talking about, the odds are your going to be fighting them and thats what your going to feel when pounding.

if a trivial argument builds to a chest thumping contest, you have time to assess the situation and might be very calm about the whole thing.

if someone was really trying to kill me i'd be afaid. that fear may shock me into a state of no mind instead of paralysis (i hope at least as no one has tried to kill me), but my reaction would still be motivated by fear for my survival.

[SevenStar]

The problem with anger is that it can make you too one minded. It can also lead to costly mistakes.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Very true....

but at the same time it brings more impact and incentive in your fight...because often the most aggressive one wins in a street confrontation. There is ample time to think later, entering berserk mode can have its advantages...

In the end it's a very tough balance to find...there are pros and cons to it...the best stuff is reach the level of serenity where you can so freely analyze the situation that it's almost prediction...something like dealing with a strong attack like it were a tennis ball coming at you and you already have that forehand ready to launch...

I guess the anger system is more easily accomplished than the serenity one, which requires mad accomplishment (both on a martial and personal level I presume)...

[dezhen2001]

i remember when i got mugged once... it was the scariest moment of my life... at first it was unexpected/surprise so i froze for a few secs... by that time i was pulled on to the ground. I remember my mind being very clear and thinking "someone is actually mugging me" and also i could see each movement he was trying to do to me and protect my body enough so that i wasnt hurt.

after the encounter, i guess i went in to shock and started shaking etc. but that was a few mins after everything was done.

so in that respect it helped me to stay calm.

just my experience,
dawood

[dezhen2001]

good advice guohuen... hope u had a good festive time and the year ahead is a good one :)

dawood

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
Very true....

but at the same time it brings more impact and incentive in your fight...because often the most aggressive one wins in a street confrontation. There is ample time to think later, entering berserk mode can have its advantages...

In the end it's a very tough balance to find...there are pros and cons to it...the best stuff is reach the level of serenity where you can so freely analyze the situation that it's almost prediction...something like dealing with a strong attack like it were a tennis ball coming at you and you already have that forehand ready to launch...

I guess the anger system is more easily accomplished than the serenity one, which requires mad accomplishment (both on a martial and personal level I presume)...

I agree completely. For that reason, my advice is not to depend on ANY emotion - if it's there, use it if you wish, but do not depend on it.

[Repulsive Monkey]

will be of all the emotions the one most likely to cause you a costly mistake. The person who said that anger makes a bigger impact is mistaken. When you have focus then you can make a bigger impact. In TCM anger causes qi to stagnate in the meridians hence the build up of heatedness, hence being hot-headed, boiling with rage, burning up inside etc. This is unbalancing and can be very costly. Fighting with anger is a downwards spiral of explosion detraction, and loss of control.I don't think these things lend that much towards an effective impact.

[JusticeZero]

5: Amused and playful.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by JusticeZero
5: Amused and playful.

although that can happen, I'd say it's not likely.

[yenhoi]

In my group we attempt to cultivate a "Serious playfulness."

I would say it does not benefit the trained martial artist to resort to emotional energy. Also, being afraid, concerned for survivial, etc, does not absolutly mean you are also not calm, relaxed, determined, etc. IMO, when it comes down to actually fighting, I will be doing it because of fear.

:eek:

[JusticeZero]

I fail to see why it would be any less reasonable than the perfect calm a lot of people advocate.

[SevenStar]

because in a life or death situation, playfulness isn't a natural reaction. I've laughed and smiled in fights I had no doubt I would win, but if someone is rushing me with a knife, or if I am for some other reason feeling endangered, I will be neither playful nor amused.

To be calm, you merely need to be relaxed and have your mind quieted. To be playful, you are EXTREMELY at ease - perhaps moreso than I'd like to be

That said, with enough experience that state can be reached, I'm sure, but how likely is it for the average person to have such experience?

[Sharky]

Anger will more often than not, do the trick nicely.

[scotty1]

Are the words in your sig yours Sharky?

[Sharky]

No.

Next person who asks gets a slap.

[dezhen2001]

are the words on your sig yours sharky? :D

dawood

[Sharky]

...why i oughta.........

GRRRRRRR.

Okay they're going.

[Sharky]

Actually maybe i should just credit the author....

... there that's better....

[dezhen2001]

u mean u couldnt think of anything else to put there? :D

dawood

[Sharky]

I don't like your attitude today young man.... and so I challenge you to a DUEL!

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

lol ... and then i ask in the another thread

[dezhen2001]

hmmm u wanna fight me? 1 out of shape wing chunner against... another out of shape wing chunner :p kinda boring imo :D

dawood

[Sharky]

Wing chun is for girls and gays.

My boxing beats any wingchunner.

[scotty1]

Still boxing regular?

How long is that now?

[dezhen2001]

not when the wing chunner has the butterfly knives :D and im an ex-boxer wing chunner.

dawood

[Sharky]

took 6-8 week break when i was ill

but it's all gravy now i'm 'back'

dunno how long that is... a year?

[dezhen2001]

it's all gravy

can tell ur from London :eek:

dawood

[Sharky]

You probably quit when you realised you'd rather go play pattycake instead. I remember the days, sometimes we'd go out for peanutbutter and jelly sandwitches and run through the fields with the pixies after class.

Only problem is that a pixie could beat up the average wing chunner with one hand tied behind its freak-of-nature back.

[dezhen2001]

lucky im not average then:cool: and dont underestimate pixies and midgets...

dawood

[scotty1]

1 yr of boxing is prolly enough to take 3/4 of the MA blowhards in the UK.

Sory, I should add, in my experience , which admittedly isn't much.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
will be of all the emotions the one most likely to cause you a costly mistake. The person who said that anger makes a bigger impact is mistaken. When you have focus then you can make a bigger impact. In TCM anger causes qi to stagnate in the meridians hence the build up of heatedness, hence being hot-headed, boiling with rage, burning up inside etc. This is unbalancing and can be very costly. Fighting with anger is a downwards spiral of explosion detraction, and loss of control.I don't think these things lend that much towards an effective impact.

Believe it if you wish...my personal experience is totally opposite, as it seems ,to yours.
Let me say it plainly: I do not give a **** about qi or san gong or whatever else when things get heated. I do not give a **** about my meridians or the circulation in them.
I deal with the stuff, and will have ample time thinking later about qi, the dao, and wuwei or how I have been a very mean individual when my dear azz is safe and sound.
Most of the time I have realized that if you get much meaner and berserk than your opponent you will be less likely to be the one who goes down.

I personally haven't reached the achievement of being serene and in tune with the dao when I have to fight in the streets. So I use, as Sevenstar pointed out, whatever emotion is available to me. And usually it's either fear or anger. I don't want fear, so I'm left with anger. I do not see "anger" as a one-trick clear concept. To me there are several fragrances of angers...cold and schemed , or uncontrolled. Anger has many tones, some of them being quite useful in combat. Also, I perceive a difference between the type of anger you can acquire when you are the attacker (the will to hurt, rob, maim, whatever), and the anger you obtain when you are the defender (the will to save your azz from a ******* who drops on you when you were minding your own).
Sure, a very good opponent can trick you if he remains calm, like the toreador can trick the charging bull. I totally agree. But if he/she is that good, then your chances were not very high to begin with, and not running away was your first costly mistake (you seem fond of Chinese philosophy, so I paraphrase Sun Zi, in which the first way to victory is knowing which fight you should fight, and which one you should avoid).
When I say anger, I do not imply getting all bully throwing haymakers around while grunting weird growls...far from that...

Repulsive, if indeed when you feel things get real (and real means...real) you can maintain perfect calm and serenity nd not give in to either fear or anger, then you have my respect and admiration. Personally I haven't reached that level. And I don't want to, yet...why? Because unlike many theorists of the martial arts I do not want to speak about the high concepts and noble realizations without having been through the shi@t first...
To me serenity and wuwei, and being one with your attacker and the universe and stuffs like that (the list is long in martial arts, fill the blanks yourself!) are still distant ideals. For now, I stick to what I'm capable of to try to save my dear angel face :)

[Sharky]

I agree.

I also agree that i am badass and could kick anyones face in, should they dare look in my direction.

[ricksitterly]

When I posted this thread... I was still a bit unsure about the matter, but anger feels great! Dont u think ? You'll never actually feel/channel "energies" so well as you do when you're feeling rage. Indeed, if there is any proof of the existence of "chi" and "inner strength" and it's use in fighting, anger is about as close as it comes for most of us normal people. In some ways, to lose your rage is to lose your youth and vitality. I hold on to mine, I would feel empty without it. I quote the ren and stimpy show when I say "Wait...I'm very happy... I LOVE being angry!" It went something like that.

Personally, I go through my own little phases. Being a competitor in taekwondo and jiu jitsu, sometimes I'll go through long periods of calm, other times I'll try to maintain a steady level "athletic anger" in a tournament. Both mentalities have gotten me good and bad results in the past. The main negatives I can recall from fighting angry (in competition anyway), is that I tend to get tired much faster. It seems to come in handy much better if you get that burst of anger toward the end of a match, for use as a "second wind" of sorts, or a last minute burst of energy. Being only 20 yrs old, I cannot always turn it on and off like a switch. It's not extremely unlikely to find me fuming mad and ready to fight someone in the middle of a shopping mall. :) But I'm working on it.

However I do believe in conrtolling anger, especially in a fight.
"use the beast, dont let the beast use you"
Being too enraged can cause one to disregard consequences and circumstances such as getting arrested, who is watching, how badly am I hurting this person, etc. Thanks you guys, for all your feedback.

[JusticeZero]

As far as being amused in fights goes, I know at least one person who can do that and has. Peole I know tend to not get in many fights.
I fail to see why it would be more difficult to use a highly useful emotion that fits the situation perfectly over a complete lack of such.
I cannot imagine anyone -wanting- to fight angry. Angry is what you want the other person to be, because then you know that absolutely no intelligent tactic will come from them, they'll go for whatever opening you show, plow into it overcommittedly, be all tense and slow and easier to avoid, and basically shatter like glass when you hit them because they're all stiff and didn't see you attack to begin with.

[dezhen2001]

i think theres a difference between being angry and methodically and aggressively shutting your opponent down whatever way you can.

i know for example before i mellowed out that i could be VERY aggressive when i boxed. I was small even for my weight category and had to really push myself to be able to fight well in the ring. i wasnt so strong directly so had to be all over my partner before they could use their strength.

it worked pretty well ;)

dawood

[HuangKaiVun]

In a REAL fight (one where people are really trying to hurt you), anger is often the only thing that can save a person.

Without it, my student wouldn't have survived a few attempted rape attacks.

If she didn't have the anger to defeat her attackers, she'd be DEAD today.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by JusticeZero
As far as being amused in fights goes, I know at least one person who can do that and has. Peole I know tend to not get in many fights.
I fail to see why it would be more difficult to use a highly useful emotion that fits the situation perfectly over a complete lack of such.
I cannot imagine anyone -wanting- to fight angry. Angry is what you want the other person to be, because then you know that absolutely no intelligent tactic will come from them, they'll go for whatever opening you show, plow into it overcommittedly, be all tense and slow and easier to avoid, and basically shatter like glass when you hit them because they're all stiff and didn't see you attack to begin with.

Okay, Dez and I are beating you down and holding in place so that you can watch sharky smack your girlfriend around and throw her into a wall. What's your first reaction? playful and amused?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
it's all gravy

can tell ur from London :eek:

dawood

He could be from the south :eek:

[dezhen2001]

at least i wasnt hitting the girl! :eek:

dawood

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

can i hit the girl too? at least kick her a couple times when sharky's rearin back for a good one?

[scotty1]

"I do not see "anger" as a one-trick clear concept. To me there are several fragrances of angers...cold and schemed , or uncontrolled. Anger has many tones, some of them being quite useful in combat. Also, I perceive a difference between the type of anger you can acquire when you are the attacker (the will to hurt, rob, maim, whatever), and the anger you obtain when you are the defender (the will to save your azz from a ******* who drops on you when you were minding your own)."

I agree. But then some of these definitions of 'angry' are what Dez might describe as "aggressively and methodically shutting your opponent down".

[JusticeZero]

Same situation, are you going to be "calm and placid, like moon on lake"? Anyways, I don't care to argue over the point. I was presented a question. I answered. You don't like my answer. Tough.

[SevenStar]

who's arguing? this is a discussion forum - we're discussing. See? semantics make it all better. :) To answer your question, no, I wouldn't be calm. That's exactly my point. I would be p!ssed, and I would use that. Use the emotion that is available at the time. Is happiness and joy is available, use it. If it's anger, use it. However, in a fight, I doubt happiness would be the first emotion you experience. If it is, then you probably have time to get away.

[SevenStar]

Of course you can kick her, GDA. Just keep it above the belt, okay?

[JusticeZero]

The thing was that the question asked, according to my interpretation, what is optimal and preferred/trained for in regards to emotions. I answered. People seem to find the idea that we are working toward a trickster feel to be difficult to cope with.
Yes, if i'm angry, then i'll just have to work with that. THAT WASN'T THE QUESTION. I do best with a prankster feel. That's what I try to bring out. That's what I would prefer to use.

[SevenStar]

Actually, the question was whether to use emotions, SPECIFICALLY anger and rage, or to try and remain calm. It was based on another thread that was about using anger. But that's besides the point. Good discussion.

[JusticeZero]

I have no desire to experience the bloody and broken wreck I would become from trying to use anger. I might be able to deal with fear. Both are much less than optimal, and inferior to calm, which is in turn inferior to mischief.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"Use the emotion that is available at the time"

thats kinda what i said initially. i just don't think that myself, or most people, have much of a choice. if your ****ed and get into a fight, your going to fight ****ed. if some dumb drunk is botherin ya you might be calm. if someone attacks you out of nowhere your probably going to be afraid.

[ricksitterly]

originally posted by justice zero- "I might be able to deal with fear. Both are much less than optimal, and inferior to calm, which is in turn inferior to mischief."

Ok, here we go again. What is it with this MISCHIEF crap you keep talking about. I've been training a long time, and have heard a lot of odd approaches to fighting (confusion styles, dancing attacks, distracting the opponent with one's own bodily fluids, etc. ) . But you are the first person I've encountered who wants to be "mischievous"(however u spell it). You sound like a fri9gin pre-schooler who's gonna tie my shoelaces together or put gum in my hair when I'm not looking !!!! How exactly DO you fight with mischief, I'd like to hear this. All I can picture is some guy with a srange grin, maybe pulling down his enemy's pants or something (right before getting smashed really hard). Perhaps you mean to "toy" with the enemy, causing some kind of frustration?? You can probably do this against someone you are MUCH faster and stronger than, say a staggering drunk in a bar, but a real fight is nothing to play with. I'm not sure how long you have been training, and dont mean to make any presumptuous remarks about your style, but exactly how many real "street fights" have you been in? Have you ever fought a highly trained fighter (be it a boxer, grappler, whatever) ??? Were they overcome by your mischief?

[JusticeZero]

It's a certain dynamic of the style in general. Has to do with some of the tactics we use, not so much in that we have to be showing that mood but in that it's just easier to function in such an attitude. Our 'mischief' is still completely capable of throwing sweeps, throwing people face-first into the cement, stomping on people, or whatever, it's just a certain feel that is preferred to capture is all. It helps highlight certain openings mentally - when i'm upset, it's hard for me to see any openings at all and I certainly can't make any, when i'm calm, I can see a lot of openings and sometimes I can make them open, and when i'm in good cheer, I can see how to open them up better. I basically just can get deeper into the groove that way. No, I can't really explain in any better fashion.
I'm not talking about bursting into some giggling fit in combat, just in trying to get to a mental state that seems to work well for the tactics we work with (with which we can then proceed to stomp people into the ground.)