pelvis/hip alignment?

[IRONMONK]

In the IRAS stance I have heard different things about the hip/pelvis alignment such as hips should be forward ,pelvis tilted forwards,clench buttocks and suck in the stomach etc.
what is the correct position and why do u have this alignment?
Also am i correct in assuming that the pelvis is the thing between the two hip joints?(sorry never did biology at school!!!!!)

Regards,

faze.

[mtod1]

Hey, how u doing.

Basically the stance is meant to provide maximum stability and strength for your techniques.

You should look directly forward.
keep your spine straight.
push your buttocks and pelvic area forward.
Your feet should be a little more than shoulder width apart.
Your toes should point forward.
Bend your knees a little.
Pushed your knees toward one another.
Relax your shoulders.
Tense your thighs and buttocks.

If everything goes well you should feel rooted to the ground.

Keep in mind this is very general and you should really be speaking to your instructor for a more precise understanding of the why and how.

I say this because of the fundamental differences within different Wing Chun schools. Eg some Wing tsun schools have a space of about a fist between their knees while in stance, whereas my school differs significantly from this. Little differences like this can make a huge difference in speed, power, etc.

Ok
Seeya ;)

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by IRONMONK
In the IRAS stance I have heard different things about the hip/pelvis alignment such as hips should be forward ,pelvis tilted forwards,clench buttocks and suck in the stomach etc.
what is the correct position and why do u have this alignment?
Also am i correct in assuming that the pelvis is the thing between the two hip joints?(sorry never did biology at school!!!!!)

What's the Cantonese for the IRAS stance? I'm unfamiliar with the term. What system is it from?

Thanks.

[AndrewS]

John,

you're trolling.

Chinese language fluency is not a necessary prerequisite to this art, and Leung Ting's 25 year old redundant coinage is all by which many folks know character 2.

Faze,

Pelvis is the thing between the two hips, yeah.

Drop your next free 20 quid on a decent anatomy book. It'll serve you well for the rest of your martial career.

correct alignment is where you can take pressure without leaning. Everything else is academic. You should be able to wiggle your hips a bit while taking this pressure without the other person feeling much change in what they're pushing on.

Andrew

[yuanfen]

If memory serves IRAS was a term that began to be used by the leung Ting folks. There are so many variances in the details pf the YGKYM- that it is best to ask a sifu in "your" system...
Fot instance, I do not tighten my buttocks and i am pretty well rooted- thank you.
joy

[OdderMensch]

IRAS? does it mean YGKMY?

[TwoManSaw]

I think I have seen this term used in some fairly old articles on the net, If my memory serves me correctly it (IRAS) stands for Internal Rotation Abduction Stance. Dont quote me because I Could be very wrong.
cya

[cobra]

Internally Rotated Adduction Stance AKA YGKYM or character 2

Please don't blast me if I got one of the words off a little bit. Hee Hee!

I may be doing it wrong, but we don't clinch our buttocks or thighs either, but the pelvis is rotated forward, it is a relatively relaxed stance once you become comfortable with it after a couple of years and you realize you still haven't perfected it. Being relaxed helps to absorb and transfer energy more efficiently. As far as really pulling the knees in and sitting down more in your stance, I look at it this way... Does a snake strike faster and therefore with more power from a coiled position or stretched out? It's not easy and takes a lot of practice before you get some good speed out of it. Speed will only come after you become relaxed in your stance, well, speed that doesn't come from you sacrificing your COG. But, don't kid yourself, it's not gonna come with a couple of weeks of practice. Well, like it or not, there's my four cents.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by AndrewS
John,

you're trolling.

No. :( Why do you say that?

Why not specify what the subject is? I'm not familiar with WT's terminology. Why would I be? If Ironmonk meant yee gee kim yeung mar (YGKYM), Chinese for the goat clamping stance, why not explain the acronym IRAS? Probably many of the newer non-Chinese students of my school have never heard the name YGKYM either. We call the YGKYM "the horse."

In the Leung Sheung/Ken Chung lineage, we do not have any tension. No tightening as Ironmonk described. As a rule, tension is a no-no in Wing Chun, and I wonder if that isn't also true in WT. Do you use tension in your horse?



Chinese language fluency is not a necessary prerequisite to this art, and Leung Ting's 25 year old redundant coinage is all by which many folks know character 2.

Yuanfen, Cobra, TwoManSaw, OdderMensch, Thanks for taking the time to clue me in. :D It seemed like a thread to which I might contribute.

No language fluency of any kind is required, obviously. Gawd, I've met WT folks and lots of other lineages, and we don't generally seem to have a language barrier. I wouldn't have known it by character 2, either. We just call it the horse. :rolleyes: You'll note in my posts that whenever I can, I use the Chinese if I know it, and explain it in English.


correct alignment is where you can take pressure without leaning.

That's debatable. A lot of Wing Chun mistakes could fit through that loophole. There are many Kung Fu stances that would fit that description, but would be wrong conceptually in Wing Chun.


Everything else is academic. You should be able to wiggle your hips a bit while taking this pressure without the other person feeling much change in what they're pushing on.

While I agree this last can be true, are you referring to "hiding your center" or something more basic?

Regards,

[AndrewS]

Hi John,

sorry I'm being a tad defensive- Faze (Ironmonk) is a relative beginner in WT who's been asking some very good questions and been quite civilized to other lines in public. I'd like to encourage that sort of thing. I feel some degree of responsibilty to/for others in my line.

He didn't describe tension, mtod1 id, though I've heard that term used in reference to bits of the stance. You don't use tension? We can get into muscle chains at some point but very basically if you reach down and touch the area above your knee in stance is it hard or soft? (And if you say it depends whether or not you've had a Viagra, I can find a film role for you *easy*). :-)

As to taking pressure and alignment- you can be wrong and take pressure, yup, but you can't be right and not be able to take pressure.

The hip wiggle thing- I'm not getting at anything deeper than having some of the hip complex relaxed, how else could you turn later?


Apologies for the misunderstanding,

Andrew

[AndrewS]

Hi John,

sorry I'm being a tad defensive- Faze (Ironmonk) is a relative beginner in WT who's been asking some very good questions and been quite civilized to other lines in public. I'd like to encourage that sort of thing. I feel some degree of responsibilty to/for others in my line.

He didn't describe tension, mtod1 did, though I've heard that term used in reference to bits of the stance. You don't use tension? We can get into muscle chains at some point but very basically if you reach down and touch the area above your knee in stance is it hard or soft? (And if you say it depends whether or not you've had a Viagra, I can find a film role for you *easy*). :-)

As to taking pressure and alignment- you can be wrong and take pressure, yup, but you can't be right and not be able to take pressure.

The hip wiggle thing- I'm not getting at anything deeper than having some of the hip complex relaxed, how else could you turn later?


Apologies for the misunderstanding,

Andrew

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Hi John,

sorry I'm being a tad defensive

Not your fault. It's the medium. Plus, I was sort'a lazy in how I phrased my questions. No harm, no foul. :D I was just looking for info.


- Faze (Ironmonk) is a relative beginner in WT who's been asking some very good questions and been quite civilized to other lines in public. I'd like to encourage that sort of thing.

I understand. :D I condone polite behavior.


He didn't describe tension, mtod1 did, though I've heard that term used in reference to bits of the stance.

Sorry for my confusion.


You don't use tension? We can get into muscle chains at some point but very basically if you reach down and touch the area above your knee in stance is it hard or soft? (And if you say it depends whether or not you've had a Viagra, I can find a film role for you *easy*). :-)

What do you mean by use tension? I'm using my muscles, but not consciously tensing them. I'm consciously relaxing. I try to be completely relaxed and sunken in my horse. Of course, I'm hardly the Wing Chun poster boy. Old dogs and new tricks, you see. Hence, I must decline your kind offer of a film role. :p


As to taking pressure and alignment- you can be wrong and take pressure, yup, but you can't be right and not be able to take pressure.

That sounds right. One needs a sturdy structure. Of course, the trick is to learn the point where one deflects the energy rather than bearing it. I find it hard to know at times. I'm always asking about that, but it's an experience thing.


The hip wiggle thing- I'm not getting at anything deeper than having some of the hip complex relaxed, how else could you turn later?

Thinking a bit more about it, unless one is maintaining constant pressure at point of contact, a shift in the hips' position would be a tell to the opponent. We stay relaxed, but are aware that we are vulnerable when we adjust. If you can hide your center, then you can undermine your opponent's ability to "find" and attack you.


Apologies for the misunderstanding,

Andrew
I'm sorry if I contributed to the misunderstanding. :)

Regards,

[AndrewS]

Hi John,

the stuff I'm consciously trying to do with my legs- adduct connecting the knees forward and together (without pulling them out of the line between hip and ankle), press the hips forward using, I believe, glut medius to externally rotate, grip the ground with my toes. Whether we're using different mechanics or different language is hard to say.

The shift in hips thing- an example- the lan/side kick from chum kiu. One way we practice this is to have one person place both hands on the lan with their eyes closed and jut as soon as they feel the other person move. If you can put a foot in the other guy's gut without the jut shutting you down, you're on the right track. This can be done with heavier pressure from the jutting guy, too.

As to the tell with a hip shift- are you ever not attempting to maintain forward pressure to some degree if you have contact?

Later,

Andrew

[IRONMONK]

Thanxs everyone for their replies-very useful!!

Andrew I will be buying an anatomy book as you kindly suggested.


regards

faze.

[John Weiland]

Hi Andrew,

Originally posted by AndrewS
the stuff I'm consciously trying to do with my legs- adduct connecting the knees forward and together (without pulling them out of the line between hip and ankle), press the hips forward using, I believe, glut medius to externally rotate, grip the ground with my toes. Whether we're using different mechanics or different language is hard to say.
Unless you're doing something different than the Euro and Bay Area WT folks, I think we're pretty close. I think it's a case of we all like to expound on what we emphasize. :D


The shift in hips thing- an example- the lan/side kick from chum kiu. One way we practice this is to have one person place both hands on the lan with their eyes closed and jut as soon as they feel the other person move. If you can put a foot in the other guy's gut without the jut shutting you down, you're on the right track. This can be done with heavier pressure from the jutting guy, too.

Gotcha. I'm afraid I was on the wrong mental track regarding what you meant by "the shift in hips." I'll have to try the practice you describe.


As to the tell with a hip shift- are you ever not attempting to maintain forward pressure to some degree if you have contact?

Yes, but we don't contend with the pressure unless our pressure is overwhelming our opponent. We generally dump the pressure and shift position slightly. With the pressure off, we can then return to the original position if we're still seeking an opening.

As for hiding our center, my seniors do it to me, but I have less success against good skill. I find it easiest to do against strong opponents who use their upper body strength. We have a couple of police officers who treat us as perps that they want to arrest. :D They're not subtle, but they keep me on my toes and force me to pay attention to "hiding" in plain sight.

Regards,

[AndrewS]

Hi John,

differences between my approach and the Bay folks and EWTO would be mainly one of emphasis.

The hip shift thing is just my way (stolen from Sigman) of physically characterizing the need not to 'lock' your structure. The side kick is an excellent example of it.

I agree that using pressure against pressure is basically bad sumo even with good mechanics, not Wing Chun. That being said, I've been guilty of my share of bad sumo in my time.


Hiding the center is one of those things I think has to be shown. I think I know what you're talking about, but I can put together a couple of possible ways of doing it.

Later,

Andrew