KFO Tournament Rules

[Merryprankster]

Assume we were to have a KFO tournament.

What rules and protective equipment would you like to see?

I would mandate cups, mouthpieces small MMA type gloves and the new elbow pads I've seen floating around.

Illegal techniques would be groin shots, eye gouges of anykind, biting, small joint manipulation (finger breaks), headbutts, throat strikes and chi blasts.

There would be no stomping on a person's head if they were on the ground and you were standing.

Anything not specifically forbidden is allowed.

Mat time would be limited to 30 seconds prior to stand-up.

Slamming would be legal, of course.

3 3 minute rounds. 1 minute rest.

No standing 8.

No saved by the bell.

10 point must.

Ways to win:

Winning the rounds.

Sambo style "Total victory," (A throw with force and amplitude in which the person being thrown lands on their back, while the thrower remains standing).

Knockout.

Submission.

Towel thrown.

Opponent gives up.

[Xebsball]

MMA gloves are okay but one must be allowed to palm strike
Dont think need the elbow pads since the MT guys dont use them either.

Headbutting and Chi should be legal

Stomping should be allowed, if the chute boxe guys do it i wanna be able to do it too.

Dunno about the mat time, cos i myself sometimes feel tempted to ground and pound even though i dont train ground, oh yeah i tested it on my brother LOL :D

I would prefer the rounds of 5 mins maybe

[Oso]

what about small circle locks that don't break the finger?

I've been looking for good elbow pads. What kind are you talking
about?

matt

[MightyB]

I figure that the International Rules of Debate would be more appropriate for a KFO tourney.

[Chang Style Novice]

"Anything not specifically forbidden is allowed."

Didn't see anything prohibiting weapons in those rules...

I'm going in with a .45 in one hand and a 3 foot long kukri in the other.:p

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Xebsball
MMA gloves are okay but one must be allowed to palm strike
Dont think need the elbow pads since the MT guys dont use them either.

Headbutting and Chi should be legal

Stomping should be allowed, if the chute boxe guys do it i wanna be able to do it too.

Dunno about the mat time, cos i myself sometimes feel tempted to ground and pound even though i dont train ground, oh yeah i tested it on my brother LOL :D

I would prefer the rounds of 5 mins maybe

Palm strikes are allowed. Who cares it chi blasts aren't? It's not like you can do one :p

[eulerfan]

Women should be allowed to win, on account of chivalry. But not in a really obvious way. So that she really thinks she won.:eek:

[Merryprankster]

Ahem... any UNARMED technique not specifically forbidden is allowed.

Xebs--I like elbows and headbutts, unprotected. The problem is blood. Both of these open up cuts like you wouldn't believe. In this era of blood-borne pathogens and safety requirements, I don't want a fight stopped by a cut. That doesn't tell you anything about the fighters--watch some of Rocky Marciano's old fights :D

No stomping if your opponent is on their back. Sorry. It's just not cool. I'd like people to go home at the end of the day. I'm not a pro fighter. I don't get paid to take these risks. I don't want others to have to deal with it. It may be arbitrary, but I think it's safer. You CAN soccer kick them to the head if they are on all fours though, how's that? :D

Palming is frequently done in MMA comps with open hand rules on the ground. They use MMA gloves to compete. No problem. You wanna palm, that glove isn't in the way.

No small joint manipulation. It would be hard for a referree to decide if you were doing a lock to control and maneuver or a break. My reasoning on this is that small joint breaks don't necessarily end fights, and cause needless damage to the competitors. Case in point--when my girlfriend tested for her blue belt, she broke her finger, but kept fighting.

I've seen some elbowpads, but can't remember where. I'll try and figure it out....

I'm not trying to make this "most like the street." I'm just trying to make it a safe competition with as much leeway as possible so that everybody could fairly compete.

[guohuen]

That was going to be an unspoken rule anyway.:D

[Merryprankster]

Fighters facing women who execute the golden triangle will lose by bliss.

[eulerfan]

Whenever I say stuff like that in front of my brother he says, "I thought you were a feminist."

To this I invariably reply, "I'm not a feminist. I'm an opportunist. Sometimes, but not always, it's opportune for me to be a feminist."

[Xebsball]

What if we make them "no blood fight stops" or something

Chilvary died the day women asked for equal rights, cos equal rights = equal dutties! :p

[Oso]

No small joint manipulation. It would be hard for a referree to decide if you were doing a lock to control and maneuver or a break. My reasoning on this is that small joint breaks don't necessarily end fights, and cause needless damage to the competitors. Case in point--when my girlfriend tested for her blue belt, she broke her finger, but kept fighting.


I agree with the reasoning.

just ftr, I think that breaking a finger is silly because it means you
have lost control of the other person to a degree. small circle, to
me, is just a means to the larger circles.

you can't count on pain to stop a fight or contest that's for sure.
It's great that your girlfriend kept going.

I think a rule could be figured out to allow small joint manipulation
certainly immediate disqualification for intentionally breaking
anything but I'll have to think on it more.

matt

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by Xebsball
Chilvary died the day women asked for equal rights, cos equal rights = equal dutties! :p

Don't tell the guy I'm currently seeing. He's always opening doors for me and sh!t. I think it's sexy.

[Xebsball]

thats fine, today i me and bro had to do some testings/fixings on my and his computer as well, then i opened up both computers and removed the video cards for him, he didnt even have to ask. And that is even though he is a man and hes not very sexy for me (most the times).

[Xebsball]

Yo, happy birthday MerryP!!!! :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by eulerfan
Women should be allowed to win, on account of chivalry. But not in a really obvious way. So that she really thinks she won.:eek:

refer to MP's golden triangle option. Also, the only way we can win over women is to submit them by spanking.

[eulerfan]

Speaking of spankings, I do believe MP needs 27 good smacks on the bum today!

edit: what is a golden triangle?

[Chang Style Novice]

No kukris in the octagon? Man, and I thought you people were supposed to be tough...

Actually, I think 30 seconds sounds a little short for mat time. I'm not totally sure I buy the sambo/judo style 'total victory' either. But maybe I do.

[SevenStar]

it's nothing like a golden shower....


A triangle choke is a choking tech used in grappling. the chokee's head is between your legs, and you are squeezing and pulling down on his head - I'll dig up a pic. The fact that the males head would be between the female's legs makes it golden.

[Stranger]

....not to be confused with " THE Golden Triangle", (Thailand, Laos, and Burma/Myanmar. This is the main poppy growing area of SE Asia.

[Shadowboxer]

First things first.....Happy B-Day MP!

Just so we're clear, how many small joints are there? Is it just fingers and toes? What about the wrist and wrist controls/locks? Would they be permitted? Also, I think groin shots should be legal.

[Oso]

I hope small joints are only considered as the fingers, toes etc.

wrists should be allowed as a medium or large joint.

how about fingerlocks only in the direction the fingers curl,
backwards from that and twisting along the centerline of the
finger but not side to side and the lock could only affect the joint
at the metacarpal bone and not any of the other finger joints.

If a ref were to see the lock then there would be a 3 or 5 second
time limit on the lock before the transition to the next lock and the
next lock would have to be something other than another finger
lock.

I've been busy today so that may not be the best thought out
rule.

matt

[rubthebuddha]

for effective notes on palm strikes, look up "bas rutten" in the dictionary.

[Serpent]

The rules sound good except for the sambo slam. If the dude can get up again, let the fight continue.

Eulerfan, you can win by feminine wiles. When the fight starts, go straight for the clinch. As soon as you're close enough, whisper in his ear, "Let me win, convincingly, and tonight I'll f@ck you like a Bangkok hooker."

You watch that guy present his chin for the KO!

Of course, if you don't follow up on your promise, you might find you're in a rematch later on.

[CrippledAvenger]

... and all I wanted to bring were my boots. :(

On a serious note, would stomping on someone's toes be considered "small joint manipulation" or is that kosher?

[David Jamieson]

what about spitting?

and name calling?

and forehead flicking?

and not to mention the old "yo mama" moves?

cheers

[Serpent]

And anal chi blasts?

[No_Know]

A chi blast is a chi blast and should be allowed since mostly no one can do them.

eulerfan, your saying to your brother was well said. Very nice.

[Royal Dragon]

International Kuo Shou rules, modified to allow ground fighting.

Gear should be minimal. light gloves, cup and mouth piece. Head gear optional.

[Merryprankster]

The Total Victory rule is an effort to recognize that a throw executed in that precise way, and no other, is indicitave of a probable disabling throw on a harder surface. Throwing somebody like that is actually REALLY hard to do. Remember--it has to be with amplitude, force, and the opponent has to land on their back (not side, not arm touching first, not shoulder, not butt but flat on their back), and you have to stay standing. That makes it really tough--as hard or harder than a knockout.

Wrist manipulation is perfectly legal.

Stomp on toes. No problem.

The stand up rule is to simulate the idea that you don't really want to be down there that long. Personally, I'm all for somebody taking you down and you never getting a chance to get back up. But I thought it might be nice to let people who don't know anything on the ground have a sporting chance.

[yuanfen]

MP:KFO Tournament Rules
----------------------------------------------
MP honestly- it sounds like yet another sporting event.
Gloves, no small joint manipulation,no neck work
among other things.

[Merryprankster]

Umm. Yeah. What's the problem? I didn't advertise it as underground barroom brawl or a streetfight. I suggested a tournament format.

And a tournament IS a sport. You want a streetfight, go watch bumfights or go to a biker bar and say something bad about somebody's mom.

You don't like sports, no skin off my back. Besides which, unlike you, apparently, I like the idea of being able to go back to work with a minimum of stitches, no broken hands, and a reduced risk of concussion.

As I pointed out in the beginning, the object was for a FAIR sporting event where all styles had a reasonable chance of success, without altering their training very much. If a style relies so much on the prohibited techniques that it has little chance of succeeding in this format, it's not much of a style.

[red5angel]

MP, I like the rules so far. I think your going to run into som opposition from KF people because most of them have convinced themselves it doesn't work in a sport because it's too deadly or they are limited. I never hear much about adaptability in KF and I have to wonder how all these people practice all of these techniques....
I used to be one of those guys though, but mostly because of hear say, I took it for granted that it couldnt be effective in the ring in a sporting context, but I don't buy that anymore. You would just have to train for it.

[Merryprankster]

Red, the idea for me for this tournament is that I don't want people to have to train very specifically for it. I'd like them not to have to adjust what they do too much, you know? I'd like all the individual flavors to come through, and that's what I hope for here. I think the stand-up rule, as much as I hate it, is a good thing competitionwise.

[red5angel]

hmmm, I think it could happen but here is the issue I see, the same issue you see in sport fight events now. Most KF guys don't train thoroughly, or at all, for being on the ground or for clinching. That's what I meant about sport fighting in general, even if you were aiming it towards being able to support your CMA. One good BJJ guy could walk in and do some serious damage, not because the other stuff isn't good, but because most people can't deal with it.
I haven't seen the stand up rule yet, I will browse and take a look.

OK, are you talking about the 30 second mat time rule? Not sure I like that necessarily. I don't know if denying one "range" of combat would do anytype of fighting event, sport or not, any real justice.

[Royal Dragon]

Hi,
I think the Kuo Shou has some pretty simple rules. International rules allow elbows, and i think headbutts, just no ground work after the throw. I understand that many Chinese throwing techniques are meant for hard ground, and won't incapacitate an opponent on a mat, but since this is a sport fight, I say we should allow the ground fighting seen in the UFC's

There is no reason why Kung Fu guys can't mix Bjj with thier Kung Fu. It will give a non lethal way to continue the fight to submission.

[Oso]

Umm. Yeah. What's the problem? I didn't advertise it as underground barroom brawl or a streetfight. I suggested a tournament format.

And a tournament IS a sport. You want a streetfight, go watch bumfights or go to a biker bar and say something bad about somebody's mom.

You don't like sports, no skin off my back. Besides which, unlike you, apparently, I like the idea of being able to go back to work with a minimum of stitches, no broken hands, and a reduced risk of concussion.

As I pointed out in the beginning, the object was for a FAIR sporting event where all styles had a reasonable chance of success, without altering their training very much. If a style relies so much on the prohibited techniques that it has little chance of succeeding in this format, it's not much of a style.


First off, if such a tournemant ever came to be, I would compete
small joint or no small joint manipulation. I also don't have a
problem with the sport aspect. And, at 35, I surely don't heal
as quick and need to go back to work as well.

I don't think there should be any neck manipulation at all, that's
life threatening.

However, I think it was a pretty unfair to state that a style that
relies too much on techniques that are prohibited in a sporting
event is not much of a style. That was paraphrased of course
so if I read too much into it then my bad. It may not be much of a
grappling style but that's all you could say.

I also agree that most cma's don't train for ground work. I do and
always have. But, I train and teach that you should not try to
immediately pit your strength against someone else's by working
a joint supported by larger muscle groups. Hit a finger lock first
, if it's there, and flow into the bigger locks after if necessary.
This is even more important for women and smaller men.

Most cma's practice chin na and small circle locks are a key
element to chin na. But that is not to say that wrist, elbow,
shoulder, neck, ankle, knee and body locks aren't in there as
well. They are and some of us work them pretty ok.



R5A:

MP, I like the rules so far. I think your going to run into som opposition from KF people because most of them have convinced themselves it doesn't work in a sport because it's too deadly or they are limited. I never hear much about adaptability in KF and I have to wonder how all these people practice all of these techniques....
I used to be one of those guys though, but mostly because of hear say, I took it for granted that it couldnt be effective in the ring in a sporting context, but I don't buy that anymore. You would just have to train for it.


I'm not opposing the prohibition of small circle locks. If the
consensus is no then 'no' it is. I just think there would be a way
to incorporate them thereby allowing those of us that use them
to not have to train specifically for it, as MP states. I, for one,
have not convinced myself that my techniques are too 'deadly'
for use in a sport event. That would be a silly comment to make.

MP, if my flavor of grappling has a lot of small circle stuff in it then
how can that flavor come through if it is completely disallowed?


And to echo r5a in his next post...isn't denying small circle denying
a particular range of combat?

We've had a recent discussion on grappling and bjj so I hope you
understand my belief that bjj is a great sytem and that my
arguments aren't against it at all.

To incorporate all the arts represented on this forum you have to
examine what they do and try to figure out a way to work a rule
in to allow the non lethal techniques to be used.

ftr: that grand slam thing is dangerous in a sport format because
it takes a great level of skill to take that kind of fall. Or to even
realize it's happening and not do something stupid to get your
neck broke.

elbows are risky as well as a misplace strike to the head will
kill.

BUT, there are rules govorning how each of these are applied.
SO, lets create a rule for small circle.

matt

[red5angel]

Oso, in my opinion joint manipulation carries with it a higher degree of responibility then say ground fighting. I don't believe most people have the ability to maintain the level of control recquired by say, insurance companies.
As for ground fighting, I do not believe that bjj is the end all to be all. I believe KF guys have a bette rchance of grounding and pounding, using a limited range of techniques then going to train in another art.

[yuanfen]

I didn't advertise it as underground barroom brawl or a streetfight. I suggested a tournament format.

((MP: I understood that. But it is possible to make the tournament
more realistic. The requirement of gloves in any form has an uneven impact on some kung fu styles. I dont visit this forum often- so take my comments FWIW.
If judges are properly trained- controlled punches and chops and
joint work perhaps could be possible....the way judo emerged under Kano from the old jujutsu- the key would be the judging as it happens in sports- where the referees call sometimes the dtermining factor in winning and losing))

And a tournament IS a sport.
(Again, I understood that))

You want a streetfight, go watch bumfights or go to a biker bar and say something bad about somebody's mom.

((Not my point))

You don't like sports, no skin off my back.

((Not my point))

Besides which, unlike you, apparently, I like the idea of being able to go back to work with a minimum of stitches, no broken hands, and a reduced risk of concussion.

((You have me wrong. I would like to report to work in good fashion too- that includes not letting any one come close toa choke. Some grappling and choking can leave hickeys and bruises too)

As I pointed out in the beginning, the object was for a FAIR sporting event where all styles had a reasonable chance of success, without altering their training very much.

((Understod the intent. But fairness is not easy to achieve.
One has to know a lot about many styles in great depth in order to get the specific of intent, motions and objectives and to know whthera style is diadvantaged ina new sport))

If a style relies so much on the prohibited techniques that it has little chance of succeeding in this format, it's not much of a style.

((Really? Quite a broad generalization, buy you have a right to your opinion.Really top flight competent people in several styles will probably have reservations about your format. many kung fu styles have moved toa sports format in their training. But there are some styles specially several key southern ones that have ways to test their hands- but the objective is significantly outside of the sporting arena.... at laest as defined in your rules thus far. Just providing some input. Cheers and good luck))))

[Merryprankster]

I should clarify-- Manipulation of three or four fingers in unison is allowed. Trying to manipulate one or two fingers is illegal. Too much risk of breaking. Would this inhibit your small circle?

Yuan, gloves allow full contact. Bareknucks would have to be controlled unless we all wanted split skin or broken hands from errant punches. I'll take full contact over controlled contact any day of the week. Controlled contact becomes a game of pattycake. As an "inhibition," not being able to pound somebody senseless with your fist is a lot worse than the alternative, which is gloves.

Oso--I'm sorry, it came across wrongly. I was trying to say that anything that relies so heavily on those types of attacks that it can't fight without them, isn't much of a style. Perhaps you disagree with me, but if your style is all about eyegouges and groin shots, to the extent that basic fighting skills are neglected, that's a problem.

That's more what I was getting at.

Personally, I think neck cranks should be legal.

[guohuen]

I'd make the headgear mandatory and the cup optional. (I can't move in the dam things.)

[eulerfan]

You know, when I watch UFC or Pride or similar fights, what I find most horrific isn't how much punishment is inflicted, it's how much punishment is endured.

When guy A has guy B on the ground, I'm not surprised at guy A just pounding the bejeezis out of guy B. I'm surprised at guy B, whose cause is obviously lost, refusing to tap out.

So, I wouldn't take these rules as the competition's reluctance to trust your control. It's the competition's reluctance to trust your willingness to throw in the towel.

It isn't that you would break a finger, it's that your opponent would refuse to concede unless you break a finger.

See what I'm saying? If you aren't getting a reaction, you'll just keep applying pressure. Not thinking that your opponent will simply show no pain until it's too late.

Adrenaline and ego. Dangerous stuff.

[Oso]

I should clarify-- Manipulation of three or four fingers in unison is allowed. Trying to manipulate one or two fingers is illegal. Too much risk of breaking. Would this inhibit your small circle?


Not entirely and I can definitely live with that option. Naturally
the fewer fingers the higher the pain which is why I use them
to lead to other locks or strikes.


Oso--I'm sorry, it came across wrongly. I was trying to say that anything that relies so heavily on those types of attacks that it can't fight without them, isn't much of a style. Perhaps you disagree with me, but if your style is all about eyegouges and groin shots, to the extent that basic fighting skills are neglected, that's a problem.


actually I don't think the groin shot is all that much of a stopper.

but, I teach, as a general theory of combat, these three things:

If he can't see, he can't fight
If he can't breath, he can't fight
If he can't walk, he can't fight

so, while eye gouges are not the rule, striking to the eye area
is a set up move in a lot of our techniques. a blow to the upper
cheek or anywhere around the eye socket will shut that eye down
for at least a little bit, enough to follow up w/ a finishing move.

just to clarify, I don't teach my stuff as a sport but I am personally
interested in competing as a sport. so, there is a difference in
what I teach in class and what I think we are talking about here.

In class I teach people to cheat and get home safely.

But anyway, as I said above, I can live with being able to get 3
fingers.


r5a: I understand about the control issue w/ finger breaks, to a
point. but don't quite get it because full contact striking is allowed
????? I think I've said this before somewhere above but I also
do do a small circle lock with the intent to break. Only as a means
of controlling the skeleton and causing pain.

ok, have to go for the day, lot of work to do then going to dinner
with students and then to Shaolin: Wheel of Life.

funny, the npr station here slaughtered the word shaolin by trying
to pronounce the a and the o as two syllables: Sha_owling

matt

[red5angel]

eulerfan, I think it is the adrenaline that makes it hard for someone to control that fine a motion. I am not saying it isn't possible mind you, but what MP says about multiple digits as oppposed to single digits would be the most I would be willing to accept.
With the adrenaline surge on both sides I am willing to bet you end up with a lot of broken fingers that way!

[Oso]

eulerfan, how much do you spar and to what intensity at what
level?

not a loaded question at all, just curious

r5a, I must have a completely different set of experiences...I don't
think it's that easy to break a finger if the intention is to lock and
not break. Sure, it's a small bone and doesn't take much pressure
to break but against a similar sized opponent of comparable
strength* I don't believe it would happen that often. BUT, I am
very content with the 3 digit rule.

*So, would we have weight divisions? or age divisions?

[red5angel]

Well, I haven't been in any tournemants that includes finger locking, but I know the general ability of my fellow martial artist I have come int contact with and I just don't see the level of ability to pull it off safely enough ina high pressure situation to be comfortable with it in a tournemant. It just takes one idiot who thinks he knows more then he does to end my martial arts career and whil eI dont mind taking those sorts of risk I wouldn't want to push those limits too much. My general lack of faith in humanity I guess. ;)

[Oso]

r5a, I agree with those statements.

Except the one where you maybe called me an idiot:D

I don't know...I think I could still debate the general risk of
breaking a finger vs. a broken jaw, dislocation, torn retina
fractured sinus cavity from any of the allowed techniques.

we would be aggreeing to let someone try and hit us as hard
as they could but we won't let them grab a finger or two. It
honestly doesn't make sense to me.

anyhoo, off to dinner and several Bombay & Tonics

Matt

[red5angel]

Well, if we had it my way Oso, we would just do it on the rooftops and alleyways and **** the rules. But, since we have to have rules you have to draw a line somewhere. While punching is dangerous, I believe more martial artist can do that more competantly then they can manipulate small joints. It's just more fine control, and recquires a higher level of skill to assure you don't hurt someone. I am not saying there are't any epople out there capable of doing it, I am just saying that the common denominator cannot, not to the degree I am comfortable with.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by Oso
eulerfan, how much do you spar and to what intensity at what
level?

not a loaded question at all, just curious



****, this HAS GOT to be a loaded question. I just don't see how it isn't.

But it's okay if it is. I'm not even speaking from sparring experience. I'm speaking from UFC watching experience. That makes me even less of an 'expert'.

a) Once a week.

b) It's supposed to be controlled with light contact. Emphasis on "supposed to be".

c) Don't know what that means. Been doing it for a year and a half. It being SD. So, yeah, zeroeth level, maybe?:D I don't know what level I spar at.

[Stranger]

If he can't see, he can't fight

If he can't breath, he can't fight

If he can't walk, he can't fight

Isn't that the Kobra-Kai Quicksilver approach to training for the All-Valley Tournament? :D

[Oso]

r5a: well, I guess it comes down to how much you train
something. I agree the common denominator as you put it
probably can't. Sadly enough if it is a cma system.

eulerfan: no it wasn't, just a curiosity based on your comments.
I don't think you've seen me bash anyone.
I've only seen SD websites so I can't criticize based on
that. I understand you are switching systems though.
Good luck.

stranger: if you want to criticize something I say how's about
doing it w/o the smart a ss comment. I'be be happy
to talk about those three items if you want. My first
question would be: How do you fight if you aren't
affecting the vision, breath or base/balance?



oh, r5a, just got back from the S:WoL....hard to say more good
than bad unfortunately. The best thing about the show was
meeting a local hung gar sifu who's kinda underground but
has a distinctive description so I introduced myself and he was
very genuine and we talked of getting together.

g'night

Matt

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by Oso
eulerfan: no it wasn't, just a curiosity based on your comments.
I don't think you've seen me bash anyone.
I've only seen SD websites so I can't criticize based on
that. I understand you are switching systems though.
Good luck.
Matt

I didn't think you were going to bash me. I thought you were going to say something to the effect of, 'well, that's nothing like a tournament fight. You don't really know what that's like.'

Which I don't.

But I've seen it on the T.V.;)

Anyway, thanks.

[Stranger]

Oso,

Ease up, it was just a joke. I know nothing of your school or training approach. It just so happens that your slogan is very similar to, if not the same as, the slogan they call the Quicksilver method in Karate Kid Part III. There was a scene where the Karate Kid had to get ready for the All-Valley Tournament in a hurry. He decided to train with the Kobra-Kai instructor. The instructor's Quicksilver method consisted of attacking a wooden man to learn how to take out the opponent. He would break the boards where the face was and say, "A man can't see; he can't fight." He broke boards where the ribs would be and said, "If a man can't breathe; he can't fight." He then broke the boards where the legs would be and said, "A man can't walk; he can't fight." It is close enough to what you said that I thought I would make a friendly jest (thus the smile). Whether you borrowed it from the movie or not, I don't care, because it wouldn't shape my opinion of you as a martial artist in the least. If what you do works for you or makes you happy, I won't judge you. I'm sorry if I got too informal for your taste, but I wasn't trying to start anything. If anything, I'm the **** for sitting through that entire movie, which was only slightly more pleasant than a shot to the pills.

[Merryprankster]

Euler,

I should add one more rule: Referree stoppage. If I hadn't said that already.

You'll find that many people in these events come from a sportive background. To that end, we are not focused per se, on the safety of our opponent. We compete within the rules, and with a referree. Those two things are supposed to keep us all safe.

As an example, in BJJ comps, if I throw a submission, the rules say I am to apply it gradually. What that means, practically speaking, is that you secure the submission as quickly as possible, and then, instead of slamming your hips into the arm bar back and forth in a ballistic break, I apply the proper pressure to give you a chance to tap...and I keep increasing the pressure if you don't. Now, you may be one of those folks who don't tap, so one of two things will happen...

1. I'll break your arm.
2. The referree will stop us, for your safety.

If #1 happens, it's no skin off my back. I fulfilled my end of the bargain by being gradual and controlled. You did NOT fulfill your end of the bargain by tapping when caught.

I am MUCH more considerate with training partners who are newish and may not know when they are caught.

People in UFC and Pride who receive unanswered blows to the head repeatedly typically have the fight stopped by the ref. If they remain active, indicating they still desire to fight, and are not incoherent, then they are usually allowed to continue. Sometimes, the end result is not pretty, as when Enson Inoue fought Igor Vovchanchin. Enson had to be helped to his corner because he couldn't crawl back, and he could not answer the bell for the next round.

Oso--I agree that the ring and street are different. And I agree with your premises, for the most part.

[Oso]

stranger-my apologies for being uptight, seemed you were
just outright slamming. Nope, didn't see KKIII. Just the first.
I'm really big into the generalities of combat/fighting/self d.
I try to present a big picture to my students first. While they are
simply getting into better shape during the first 6 months or so
is when I present the theoretical basics. I'll agree that those 3
statements are a little movie-ish but that doesn't mean they
aren't true, imo. btw, I looked up the art on your profile having
never heard of it. Interesting stuff w/ a cool history. I can't
remember who's site it was but there were some pics of some
camps in CO. Didn't look for long but will check it out more later.
I've a book on my shelf titled 'Russia and the Golden Horde' and
I think it has to do with a similar time period as the genesis of
your style. I've been meaning to read it for a while.

MP, I am totally interested in exploring the sporting aspect of ma.
My hope for the current ufc is that it evolves into a internationally
sanctioned venue for ma like the boxing federations are. This, I
think would bring better recognition to us all. Maybe on the way
there it can create something with out as many flaws as some
of the boxing associations have. And maybe get away from all
the smack talking and get on with real sportsmanship in and out
of the ring. Let me restate that...'better than the boxing fed's'

If you havn't decided I'm an as shole and the invite still stands in
late march I will be in Richmond and DC to see family and I look
forward to talking this over in person.


eulerfan, I either missed it in the other thread, which got way to
existential for me, but where are you heading next? ma wise.

matt


Matt

[red5angel]

Oso, you train with Kobra Kai?! ;) I just think you most common denominator in the martial arts does it as a hobby and doesn't have the dedication to get as good as they could.

I think someone should kick stangers a$$ just for mentioning Karate Kid..... :)

I think I have to go with MP on the referee stoppage and his ideas behind the consequences of being a dumb a$$. If you want to be a tough guy and try to resist the lock someone is applying, and you get something broke, thats your bad, not mine.

[Stranger]

No worries. :)


I'm really big into the generalities of combat/fighting/self ......."

Me as well, and I agree with your three principles completely, so there was no mocking intended at all.


Nope, didn't see KKIII. Just the first.

Well, now you got to rent, because I've planted the evil seed of curiosity. :p


"I think someone should kick stangers a$$ just for mentioning Karate Kid....."

:(

:p
:D

[Stranger]

I looked up the art on your profile having......

I don't think it was taught in the West until the very early 1990's. The head of our organization in North America is Vlad Vasiliev. The instructor in CO might have been John Giduck. I have never met him, but I understand he is very good and has trained in a variety of RMA for longer than most North Americans on the RMA scene (although that is heresay).

[Oso]

r5a, agreed on the common denominator but would they be
entering a tournemant like the one we are postulating? anyway,
beating a dead horse here...

I'd a kicked a buncha kobra kai a ss just to get at Elizabeth Shue
she's a hottie, and just got better looking with age.

as a side note re: KK I, in hs and shortly after I was friends with
some okinawan issanryu folks and saw the form that fumio
demura does in the movie performed by someone pretty high
in the ranks. it was pretty cool. I remember it being only a
nidan or shodan level form and was at a test for a buddy of mine
and this other gentleman did it as a demo.


MP, et al--what about the size/age bracket question?

[Merryprankster]

Weight classes TBD. Experience levels to be determined

Adult=18-30
Masters=31-40
Executive=41-50
Executive 2=51-60
etc.

Sexes would be seperated.


Any person can "fight up," but not "fight down." If you're 50 and want to fight Adult, be my guest. If you're a woman and want to fight men, no problem. If you're 130 and want to fight a 290 pound behemoth, no sweat. If you're a beginner and want to fight advanced, feel free. If you're a 22 year old stud with 10 years experience, you ain't fighting beginners.

However, there would be an open category--all weights within an experience level would compete for the open championship (if they wanted--nobody forces it)

There would also be an absolute--all experience levels, all weights, etc.

[Stranger]

I'd a kicked a buncha kobra kai a ss just to get at Elizabeth Shue
she's a hottie, and just got better looking with age.--



-- Agreed.

[Oso]

MP, that sounds good.

The only tournemant experience I've got was at great lakes
in 99 in the continuous sparring division. I wanted to do the
shui jiao (sp?) but didn't have the extra money to buy the
required sj top. I didn't like the single 2 minute round I got
after waiting 8 hours to spar!! There were only 3 of us in the
Advanced Heavyweight Div and they didn't do double elim. So,
I got the draw and sparred the winner of the first and beat him
but was totally expecting to have to spar the loser of the first
round as well. I understand that has changed but I don't know
how.

If a division was too small like the above example would we
combine divisions? A trend I've noticed is that you don't see
too many people over the age of 30 sparring and I would be
more than happy to drop an age bracket for more opportunity
to be in the ring.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Euler,

I should add one more rule: Referree stoppage. If I hadn't said that already.

People in UFC and Pride who receive unanswered blows to the head repeatedly typically have the fight stopped by the ref. If they remain active, indicating they still desire to fight, and are not incoherent, then they are usually allowed to continue. Sometimes, the end result is not pretty, as when Enson Inoue fought Igor Vovchanchin. Enson had to be helped to his corner because he couldn't crawl back, and he could not answer the bell for the next round.


Hmmm. I guess I'm just squeemish when it comes to seeing somebody getting a beating.

I really only like the first few UFCs. There was a real sense of sportsmanship in those early ones. People didn't really talk sh!t, I can't stand it when athletes talk sh!t.

There was this one guy who got his @ss handed to him by Royce and, in the interview afterwards, he was just happy as a clam because he got to compete. It didn't seem to phase him at all that he lost.

That's the stuff, right there.

[Merryprankster]

Yup. We'd combine if it was too small. Groups of 4 or fewer would go round robin.

[Merryprankster]

Euler,

If it makes you feel any better, most serious competitors don't talk a lot of crap. They are, however, by nature, somewhat ummm...emotional and can get carried away.

Then, there're guys like Phil Baroni....

[red5angel]

Als, I think most of those individuals who are attracted to competitive sports, especially competitive fighting are going to reflect that attitude in one way or another. There are always good sportsmen and bad sportsmen though.

[Oso]

MP, that sounds good. I wasn't even warm after just 2 minutes,
us old guys need to build up a head of steam first...if we don't
get creamed before we do :D

Unfortunately you do run into poor sportsmanship all too often.
My biggest peeve is w/ tito ortiz, yea he's a hel luva fighter but
you don't need to talk that much cr ap.

I've only seen two of the newer ufc shows but there was a guy
that was supposedly the underdog but won in a really good
solid match and in the interview afterwards he was saying some
humble stuff that you just don't hear anymore. I'll have to look at
it again and get his name.

There was this one guy who got his @ss handed to him by Royce and, in the interview afterwards, he was just happy as a clam because he got to compete. It didn't seem to phase him at all that he lost.

That's the stuff, right there.

Amen, sister. This sounds corny but it doesn't matter if you win
or loose, just as long as you tried as hard as you can.