The Science of self-defence!

[haamu]

Some of you might want to take a look at this...

http://hikutacombatsystems.com/

It sound almost too good to be true. Check out the FAQ, the system is even "plug and play" compatible ;)

haamu

[Radhnoti]

...I know nothing about this system. I just love that the instructor's name is "Jack Savage".

:)

[Sharp Phil]

I've reviewed the material on which this is based. "D.O.K." Lee founded the art of Hikuta and taught it to someone named Al Abidin, who taught it to Jack "Savage," self-described spec-ops tactical unit-type fellow.

http://www.philelmore.com/martial/hikutahand.htm

http://www.philelmore.com/martial/hikutavideo.htm

[tsunami surfer]

Jack is the real deal. He works at the same place I do. Excellent all around fighter. A true hunter/shooter. He just uses an alias for his internet site.

[Sharp Phil]

Why, what do you do for a living?

[Former castleva]

Seen that before,and it may very well be good but...
I wonder what kind of a violent mood swing or utter glimpse of ignorance do they feel who type out loud about "most effective systems".

[haamu]

Just for the record, i was joking.

I don't know this Savage guy, but people make their oppinions based on what they see. I see a website full of CAPITALIZED words and "ancient most effective never-seen-before" mumbojambo. Now, if this guy is a real deal, maybe he should act like one.

Thanks for those reviews Phil, they were pretty much what i expected them to be. Though, i would love to read more about those "homemade self-defense spray formulas" :)

Anyone have info about eqyptian martial arts? Are there such?


haamu

[Former castleva]

Most probably there are,since Egypt has a long history and culture.
Even we do have one,kas-pin. :)
Maybe various have died,and those that have not,are rare and remain in certain "secretcy"...just my ideas though.

Here´s a link that I found.

http://www.btinternet.com/~david.mcintee/egypt.htm

[Sharp Phil]

Sadly, the question of "Egyptian martial arts" usually gets caught up and obscured by representatives from the revisionist history/Afrocentrism movements, who try to tie black Africans to the society of Ancient Egypt and wrap the whole thing up in a hymn to "it all started here with us" ideas. There is no way to get solid answers on the issue.

The ancient Egyptians did indeed have a rich culture and much to recommend them, but we know precious little about them by comparison to the totality of their society.

[Watchman]

Sharp Phil:

If I remember correctly, tsunami surfer works for the US Department of Energy as a member of that agency's Special Reaction Teams (SRT). They're basically a souped up version of a "regular" law enforcement style SWAT team .

You have to have prior experience in the military, or as an LEO with service in a tactical unit to get hired. The job description basically amounts to you doing shooting, CQB, and team drills all day long and getting paid for it.

My idea of heaven.

Here's a link:

http://www.specwarnet.com/taclink/Federal/doe_srt.htm

[JacSavage]

Greetings Kung Fu guys!

Did growing up on a steady diet of the Kung Fu series and Asian Kung Fu flicks perhaps influence the direction my life has taken?

I've trained with some Kung Fu experts over the years- thier blazing speed is truely something to behold!

For a review of DOK Lee's old Hikuta package (the tape and book complement each other and do very little as stand alones) form a hard core training group (as opposed to a accountant/amateur writer with little in the way of MA skills by his own admission ) go to :

http://www.amacord.com/chigung/

This has been posted in 1997-long before myself or even Al were finally awarded Master Trainer certifications in Hikuta.

Short version:

From a hard core training group :

7. The quickest and most practical training I've seen for learning to strike is...Hikuta: ... <it>deliver the goods in a way no other ... I've seen matches.

8. There are two problems in striking another person: 1) not striking them hard enough to be effective and 2) hurting your own hand. Hikuta overcomes both these problems very nicely. You do not have to be a big bruiser to stun and undermine the attack of a big bruiser. Also, if you can get your hands on just about any hard object, a hairbrush, a glass, even a tooth brush or a pocket calculator, you've got a deadly and covert weapon - if you know how to use it. ...From http://www.amacord.com/chigung/
**********

Hikuta is growing in popularity -tho I doubt it will ever be "mainstream"- leaving me less and less time to frequent the message boards. So when or if I ever return to post or check posts is a question mark.
Any specific questions concerning Hikuta can be posted on the Hikuta message board - http://pub95.ezboard.com/bhikutacombatsystems -or e mail me : HiComSys@yahoo.com.

Or e mail Al Abidin - his web site is: cutting-edge-combat.com

There are roughly a half dozen or so other CERTIFIED Hikuta instructors in the US- if interested in personal training/demos contact me and I'll put you in touch with the nearest one.

Any questions dealing with self defense in general or fitness just drop me a line and do what I can to help or direct you to someone who can.

Thanks for your interest!

Knowledge Replaces Fear!

Jack Savage
HikutaCombatSystems.com

[JacSavage]

In my unit we just call him : the Bad @@@! or Billy Bad @@@. The nickname says it all.

Billy may hold the record for most times making our elite tactical competition team (is this nine or ten years now?)- hasn't won it yet, but is always a threat!

Billy has a tactical training business going on the side, where he trains many local law enforcement and SWAT operators in advanced skills. Anyone in the Augusta, Ga area desiring this can contact him.

You can go to Thunder Ranch , Blackwater etc, and make no mistake about it- you WILL develop awesome pistolcraft/tactical or other skills (if you train consistantly) OR for a fraction of the cost, train under an elite operator such as Billy- and develop identical skills!

Currently training in BJJ/kickboxing it's always a treat to roll around on the mat with him to test how my catch wrestling training is progressing

Those interested in getting into this line of work - were hiring! All over the country no less! Military/law enforcement is prefered but not a must.Billy, Bones, Bam Bam, myself and others can't do this forever! Plan on 2-3 years of conditioning/shooting preparation to get ready. The wash out rate for EXPERIENCED shooters in our classes runs 30% or more. If runnin' and gunnin' or the more laid back counter sniping field is what you always wanted- there will never be a better time to get into it than now.

Remember- you do what you are!


Knowledge Replaces Fear!

Jack Savage

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by JacSavage
Currently training in BJJ/kickboxing it's always a treat to roll around on the mat with him to test how my catch wrestling training is progressing


...so, you're a Hikuta instructor training kickboxing, BJJ, AND Catch Wrestling?

Who are you training Catch under, may I ask?

[apoweyn]

my favorite line: "he wasn't even oriental!"

ah boy.

you know, maybe everyone who's ever laid eyes on hikuta could kick the ever-loving crap out of me. but that line made me smile. i kinda figured we were past assumptions like that. especially when this hikuta isn't supposed to be 'oriental' in the first place.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

from a hikuta testimonial:


I never felt the impact of the Hikuta strike. I don't remember any conscience thought process on my part to throw the punch. "It" just happened. I DO remember pulling the strike before it impacted (I didn't want to hurt him).

now, you can't have it both ways. you can't claim not to have been conscious of throwing the strike at all and having the presence of mind to pull the strike so as not to seriously hurt your opponent.

i know this piece of marketing is intended to illustrate that hikuta is 1) easy to program into your subconscious reactions and 2) so dangerous that you'd have to pull it for fear of killing someone. but come off it. this is precisely the sort of stuff that makes me a disbeliever.

excerpted from same testimonial:


All I was ever really aware of was the inmate falling over like a felled tree. No steps backward or any other movement... just toppling over onto his back.

so which is it? did the guy fall down as if by magic? with the hikuta specialist not even realizing what they'd done until it was over? or did the hikuta specialist have the time and presence of mind to make a calculated judgment about whether or not to hurt his opponent, arriving at the decision to pull the punch?

personally, i want people to play it straight with me. even in advertising. especially in advertising. and this just doesn't do the trick.


stuart b.

[Ajax]

"Based upon simple scientific principles,soon 100 lbish women -with only a few minuets of Hikuta training under their belt-were able to smack their giant male coworkers (wearing specially made protective pads) across the room with ease .

"They became believers in the power of Hikuta one and all!!"

****, now that's a style :D

[Sharp Phil]

Unlike you, Jack "Savage," I do not run around claiming to be some sort of black bag spec-ops supersoldier who's trained as a Ninja and wields the physical power of the ancient Pharoah's bodyguards. My opinion is nevertheless more informed than yours, regardless of whatever security work in which you may or may not be engaged.

The rest of you will have to forgive Jack's somewhat sour attitude -- he's been bitter about the review ever since it was published. There is at least a seventy percent chance that this thread will now devolve into him hurling insults at me, which is his usual pattern.

Those looking at "Hikuta" from the outside are better served by an objective review of the material, rather than empty testimonials provided by believers in this contrived system. It fascinates me that the only rebuttal Jack can produce where my book review (http://www.philelmore.com/martial/hikutahand.htm) and video review (http://www.philelmore.com/martial/hikutavideo.htm) are concerned is the same sad three-paragraph, 200-word blurb he's quoted before. His "short version" is more than half the total "review," if you can call it that -- the whole thing is this:


7. The quickest and most practical training I've seen for learning to strike is a book and video tape called "Hikuta: The Art of Controlled Violence." It used to be available from a company called the Hanford Press in Canton, Ohio. (It's a subset of the Suarez Corporation. Sorry, that's all I know about it. If you write me for more details on how to get this material, I won't respond. )

Hikuta sounds like a made up name to me and its history, as presented, sounds a bit far fetched. Nonetheless, the people who put the book and tape together deliver the goods in a way no other book or training I've seen matches.

8. There are two problems in striking another person: 1) not striking them hard enough to be effective and 2) hurting your own hand. Hikuta overcomes both these problems very nicely. You do not have to be a big bruiser to stun and undermine the attack of a big bruiser. Also, if you can get your hands on just about any hard object, a hairbrush, a glass, even a tooth brush or a pocket calculator, you've got a deadly and covert weapon - if you know how to use it.

Who is this "hard core training group" to which Jack refers so desperately? He's one individual who believes the future of the martial arts is Systema (http://www.russianmartialart.com) and who apparently works as some sort of marketer and consultant. That's hardly what I would call a "hard core training group," though it is apparently very important to Jack that this 200-word review carry more weight than actual objective analysis of Hikuta. Jack was so thrilled that another individual referred to him as the "real deal" that he quoted this at his own forum -- not once, but twice.

If you can find some substantive error in my reviews, Jack, you're welcome to bring it to my attention. I realize that the great sin I have committed in failing to be convinced regarding the validity of the art you study pains you great, tied as it is to your fragile sense of self-esteem, but sooner or later you will have to accept the fact that not all of us share your insecurities.

For further reading, I suggest:

Insecurity in the Martial Arts (http://www.philelmore.com/profiling/insecure.htm)

How To Spot A Virtual Tough Guy (http://www.philelmore.com/profiling/vtg.htm)

How To Spot A Virtual Sensei (http://www.philelmore.com/profiling/vs.htm)

Martial Arts Defense Mechanisms (httP://www.philelmore.com/profiling/madm.htm)

Tenth Dan In Bul Shi Tsu: Absurd Claims and Martial Efficacy (http://philelmore.com/martial/fraudulent.htm)

[JacSavage]

To see an in-dept discussion on Phil's attempt at a review of DOK Lee's material go to:

You'll find posts from Kublar Al, a WW@ combatives expert, and a hard core trainee in various combative arts (who is probably well known to many of you) :

http://pub95.ezboard.com/fhikutacombatsystemsfrm1.showMessage?topicID=115.t opic

There is a old saying : consider the source!

Who would you believe? Combative experts such as myself ( I've appeared in various internation and US magazines on Combatives ), AL , Trim(who has had articles published in Black Belt), Tsunami Surfer (well known combatives instructor and operator), Swifty ( a hard core trainee in various systems) and many others or Phil Elmore- a novice martial artist (despit 10 years of training!)/accountant/sci-fi buff/ AND expert (in his own mind mostly) reviewer of Martial Arts tapes!

There is something really sad about a novice like Phil attempting to critique' bonefied professional experts in their field! Stick to your bean counting Phil!

Jack Savage
HikutaCombatSystems.com


PS_
Better yet, why not get some Hikuta material and train a bit for yourself- discover the difference!

[apoweyn]

who would i believe? the guy that doesn't sound like he's trying to sell me something.

"discover the difference"?!

good grief, you sound like a used car salesman. this product may well be the be all, end all. but the more you talk, the more i doubt.

and while i'm admittedly not in the 'combatives' crowd, i've never heard of a one of you.


There is a old saying : consider the source!

beautiful! i am considering the source. i haven't read sharp phil's review. and i'm not sure i'm going to. but considering the source, he's a reviewer and you're a sales rep. it's not rock science figuring out that your description of hikuta is going to be at least as distorted as his.


stuart b.

[Sharp Phil]

I see I should have raised considerably the percentage chance that Jack "Savage" would repeat his previous pattern of behavior.


To see an in-dept discussion on Phil's attempt at a review of DOK Lee's material go to:

You'll find posts from Kublar Al, a WW@ combatives expert, and a hard core trainee in various combative arts (who is probably well known to many of you) :

It's interesting that Jack mentions "Kublar" Al, with whom I traded perfectly pleasant, civil e-mails. I distinctly recall telling Al that Jack was a big liability to "Hikuta," in that Jack maintains more of an active presence on the Web and generally makes a fool of himself everywhere he goes.

Jack lists a link to his own forum in which he attacks me, taking a page from Kungfoolss (http://www.philelmore.com/hate/kungfoolss.htm)' rulebook in basically having a conversation with himself. Anyone who cares to see the actual conversation may find it here at the forum where it originally took place:

http://pub17.ezboard.com/fanimalabilitycombatcorner.showMessage?topicID=545 .topic

Unlike Jack's intellectually dishonest and self-masturbatory posting of only those posts favorable to him at Jack's own somewhat sad and desolate forum, the original thread (http://pub17.ezboard.com/fanimalabilitycombatcorner.showMessage?topicID=545 .topic) contains my responses and the commentary of other interested parties.

Then there is this thread (http://pub17.ezboard.com/fanimalabilitycombatcorner.showMessage?topicID=540 .topic) in which I posted a link to the review originally. The board op had to close the thread because Jack could not manage a single substantive response, relying instead on insults and impotent anger.

It's painfully obvious, Jack, that you believe any criticism or lack of belief in Hikuta constitutes a personal attack on you. I strongly suggest you take some time to examine why this is the case. Why is it that Al can speak on these subjects in a civil, adult manner, but you cannot?


There is a old saying : consider the source!

Yes, let's do that. One may take the word of a syntax-challenged, obviously bitter Hikuta "instructor" who has a vested interest in promoting the art in question, or we can actually look at the reviews that have so outraged you and try to find something about them that is substantively incorrect. I'm willing to bet you can't do that, as you've demonstrated that you are completely unprepared to address any criticism or rebuttal of your hysterical posts.


Who would you believe? Combative experts such as myself ( I've appeared in various internation and US magazines on Combatives )

You make it sound as if you've personally published articles on the topic, when in fact your "unit" has allegedly appeared in... what was it, S.W.A.T. magazine? The fact that you are some sort of armed security personnel does not automatically make you an expert in combatives, though I'm sure you'd like us to believe you are. But then, this thread is not about your background -- it is about Hikuta itself.

When you ask us simply to take your word that Hikuta is good because you are supposed to be a "combatives expert," you commit the logical fallacy called the Appeal to Authority.


, AL , Trim(who has had articles published in Black Belt), Tsunami Surfer (well known combatives instructor and operator), Swifty ( a hard core trainee in various systems)

Yes, Jack, everyone who agrees with you is automatically a "hard core trainee," while everyone who does not is... not, apparently. Sooner or later it will dawn on you that adults often disagree and are capable of doing it without making raving, braying *******es of themselves.


...and many others or Phil Elmore- a novice martial artist (despit 10 years of training!)/accountant/sci-fi buff/ AND expert (in his own mind mostly) reviewer of Martial Arts tapes!

I see you're using those psychic powers you've used before, Jack, in order to tell the assembled multitude what I think. I have never declared myself an expert on anything; I simply write about what I know and do so objectively and fairly. You are bitter because my review of the Hikuta material is generally not positive, and that is understandable -- but other than making ad hominem attacks on me and committing other logical fallacies, you are incapable of addressing anything within the review. The reason you have not done this is because the review is entirely fair and accurate.

As for my credentials as a reviewer, I will let the list of people who have submitted materials to me speak for itself. I expect there are a few names on that list of whom readers of this thread have actually heard, even if they've never heard of "Hikuta."

The Reviews Page, Which Links to Reviews By Category (http://www.philelmore.com/martial/reviews.htm)


There is something really sad about a novice like Phil attempting to critique' bonefied professional experts in their field! Stick to your bean counting Phil!

There is something really sad about a grown man who actually prefers people to call him Jack "Savage" lashing out in such a childish manner, attacking the messenger because he does not like the message (yet cannot actually find true fault with it).

You're a "bonefied professional," all right.


stuart b. wrote:
beautiful! i am considering the source. i haven't read sharp phil's review. and i'm not sure i'm going to. but considering the source, he's a reviewer and you're a sales rep. it's not rock science figuring out that your description of hikuta is going to be at least as distorted as his.

I hope you find the time to read the review, Stuart, as I think it is objective and will help anyone who's looking for some outside insight on this alleged Ancient Egyptian-inspired art. Jack, in the midst of his somewhat embarassing tirade, mentioned Justin Swift, with whom other posters may be familiar. He and I disagree on the merits of Hikuta -- he finds it worthwhile -- but he, at least, is capable of doing so like a grown-up.

[apoweyn]

phil,

perhaps i will. but if i don't, please understand that it's not a comment on your review. only on the fact that i now have very little interest in hikuta. of course, i probably shouldn't let jack savage's presentation of the material tarnish the thing as a whole. so, i'll take it under advisement.

cheers.


stuart b.

[tsunami surfer]

Hello All,

I have been reading the posts on this thread and while endorsing a friend and teammate it seems to have set off a firestorm. Jack can handle himself without my help but when phil took a couple of jabs at the unit jack and I are a part of I must respond. First off our unit has never been featured in SWAT magazine as far as I know but has been featured in SOF and Special OPS magazine. For a non military unit we can do anything the military units do except parachute onto a target. Also for a non military unit we have suffered 7 fatalities since 1990 nationwide(1 in our unit) These training accidents are nothing to be bragged about but it does demonstrate the level we train at. Many of us nation wide have branched out on our own to bring affordable and quality training to civilians and law enforcement. Sometimes we work for free. Our unit has trained with many Spec-ops units and they are surprised at our level of skill when they assume we are just a bunch of mall guards. There are only a few hundred of us across the country which makes us a very select few.

I have worked with Jack for over 12 years and he is one of the finest operators I have been priviledged to work with. While I am not interested in his Hikuta system and I know nothing about it we have sparred and grappled many times over the years. He tests what he knows against what I know.

I have learned many things from Jack and I hope he has learned a few things from me. Most of you who read the few posts I put up know that I am normaly not this long winded so I apologize for the length of this post.

Make no mistake about the Special Response Teams of the DOE and the federal couriers that haul nuclear material. We are a proud organisation that will not tolerate disrespect from a wannabe like sharp phil

Nuff said

[Sharp Phil]

And what is it that I "wannabe," exactly? I don't recall ever expressing an interest in being seen as some sort of "tactical operator." The fact is that any "disrespect" you believe to be directed at your "unit" -- which we could all view a lot more clearly if both of you would stop dancing around it and simply admit precisely what it is you do, and where -- is purely the result of the childish manner in which Jack behaves. I've no doubt that your profession is impressive enough all on its own, but this is not enough for Jack; he constantly tries to be seen as more, affecting the pretense of being some sort of black bag Delta-type super-operator.

I don't know you, tsunami, and certainly don't blame you for standing behind a friend -- but I have never been anything but civil to Jack unless and until he starts raving like a *******. Read through the linked threads and you'll see this is true.

If you wish your organization to be viewed with the respect it is due, your problem is not me -- it is the fact that Jack represents you and refers to you constantly in his quest to be seen as a martial arts authority.

[tsunami surfer]

Well phil I don't know you either but I do know Jack!

[Watchman]

The fact is that any "disrespect" you believe to be directed at your "unit" -- which we could all view a lot more clearly if both of you would stop dancing around it and simply admit precisely what it is you do, and where

I posted a link that I thought spelled it out clearly. Here it is again:

Department of Energy Special Response Teams

http://www.specwarnet.com/taclink/Federal/doe_srt.htm

[Sharp Phil]

Yes, I gathered that much; I've also been told that Jack works for this company (http://www.wackenhut.com/) in that regard. Most people would be satisfied being this sort of security personnel, and would feel no need to describe themselves with such purposefully vague black-bag spec-ops "operator" affectations as Jack has used in the past. Let's stipulate, then, that Jack and tsunami surfer are security professionals and not merely mall ninja (http://www.mallninja.com) (though in the case of my previous post I was hoping he'd actually tell us precisely where he works, and what he does, in terms that are a little less intentionally spooky than he's used in the past).

The issue I raise despite that is, how does any of that have any bearing on Hikuta? And how would any of it make Jack an expert on combatives? I submit that anyone capable of producing such ridiculously absurd claims (http://www.philelmore.com/martial/fraudulent.htm) as appear on his website (http://www.hikutacombatsystems.com), or who buys into the ridiculously contrived history of the art, should not be viewed as an authority on the martial arts in general or military combatives specifically.

Of course, nothing in my book review (http://www.philelmore.com/martial/hikutahand.htm) or my video review (http://www.philelmore.com/martial/hikutavideo.htm) of the DOK Lee package has anything at all to do with Jack; he simply appeared here to have one of his predictable temper tantrums because he cannot stand the fact that somewhere in this world there is someone who is not a believer in Hikuta, which is a terrible blow to the image of himself in which he desperately needs to believe.

I've not been particularly pleasant to him in my messages subsequent to his appearance here, though I generally try be polite. Sadly, Mr. Sellner has demonstrated repeatedly that he is not capable of a civil discussion where Hikuta is concerned. It's too bad, really. He's probably not such a terrible person in real life.

[JacSavage]

Actually T surfer is incorrect- our unit WAS featured in SWAT last year. As a matter of fact, we were in 4 or 5 national and international tactical mags and trade journals over a 2 year perod.

Elmore writes overly long disorations -nit picking mostly. Basically he tries to throw up a smoke screen to disguise and take attention away from irreutable facts:

Fact: Elmore is a novice martial artist not qualified to evaluate combatives tapes or systems.

Fact: Elmore is a accountant/amatuer ghost writer - NOT a professional reviewer of tapes or courses.

Fact: Elmore has had a jihad against Hikuta since it has become apparent that it is far more effective and effecient than anything he has ever "studied".

Fact: Elmore has a babyish attitude due to attention being brought on his many deficientcies.

Fact: Elmore has never seriously trained and is in terrible phyical condition.


What will this pathicic piece of crap do about these deficiencies? Get his act together? Perhaps one day be actually QUALIFIED to do his evaluations? No Way- he'll continue to eat ding dongs and heap abuse on those of us who are ACTUAL WARRIORS.

Jack Savage

[Sharp Phil]

Actually T surfer is incorrect- our unit WAS featured in SWAT last year. As a matter of fact, we were in 4 or 5 national and international tactical mags and trade journals over a 2 year perod.

Ah, so I was right about that. Good.


Elmore writes overly long disorations -nit picking mostly.

Is this your way of complaining that your lips get tired reading my posts? I'm sorry, Jack, that those of us with multisyllabic vocabularies make those of you who run to the more monosyllabic feel linguistically inferior. That can't be helped. Your definition of "nits" is interesting, though, in that I continually raise substantive issues that you invariably ignore.


Basically he tries to throw up a smoke screen to disguise and take attention away from irreutable facts:

"Irreutable?"


Fact: Elmore is a novice martial artist not qualified to evaluate combatives tapes or systems.

No, I am an experienced martial artist who is honest about his background and is not troubled by a lack of official credentials. I am entirely qualified to evaluate products -- something that numerous individuals within the self-defense industry (http://www.philelmore.com/martial/pending.htm) obviously believe because they have chosen to submit materials to me for professional reviews.

Fact: Jack "Savage" Sellner is bitter that my review of the DOK Lee package was not more positive.


Fact: Elmore is a accountant/amatuer ghost writer - NOT a professional reviewer of tapes or courses.

No, I am a professional writer who makes his living producing technical documentation, maintains a profitable side business as a ghost writer, and produces professional evaluations of media, books, and products. I have a BS in Accounting and also perform accounting functions for my employer.

Fact: Jack "Savage" Sellner is desperate to be seen as an authority on the martial arts and cannot produce anything of quality on his own. He must, therefore, attack me in an effort to falsely elevate himself. His attempts are transparent and unsuccessful.


Fact: Elmore has had a jihad against Hikuta since it has become apparent that it is far more effective and effecient than anything he has ever "studied".

This is the silliest and the most paranoid of your assertions, Mr. Sellner. I am not on a "jihad" against anything or anyone. I find Hikuta silly and my evaluation of the DOK Lee package did not change my opinion of it.

Fact: Jack "Savage" Sellner is angry that I do not like Hikuta, and so insecure about this fact that he cannot help but lash out at me. Jack "Savage" Sellner cannot accept the fact there exist in the world people who are not believers in the system so intertwined with his fragile sense of self-worth.


Fact: Elmore has a babyish attitude due to attention being brought on his many deficientcies.

Now you're just being petulant, Jack. What's next? The famous "I'm rubber, you're glue" defense? How about a rousing chorus of "I know you are, but what am I?" I have been nothing but civil in my initial posts on the subject of Hikuta, though I've been less than gentle in turning aside your juvenile attacks and ploys.

Fact: Jack "Savage" Sellner is ill-prepared to engage in debates of this kind and displays a puerile attitude when his childish and unprofessional behavior is identified for what it is.


Fact: Elmore has never seriously trained and is in terrible phyical condition.

Fact: Jack "Savage" Sellner is not psychic, does not know in what activities I do or do not engage, and has an unhealthy and vaguely ****erotic obsession with the physical states of those with whom he disagrees.

Having just recently visited my physician for a routine check-up, I shall have to phone him and take him to task for failing to inform me that I am in "terrible physical condition." I shall also have to give the owners of the gym to which I belong a stern talking to for failing to inform me of the great danger in which I place myself when working out on their premises.


What will this pathicic piece of crap do about these deficiencies? Get his act together?

Starting to become unraveled, Jack? Pressure getting to you?

Fact: Jack "Savage" Sellner is so upset that he cannot persuade me to hold a different opinion that he is reduced to intellectually bankrupt, grade-school-worthy argot.


Perhaps one day be actually QUALIFIED to do his evaluations? No Way- he'll continue to eat ding dongs and heap abuse on those of us who are ACTUAL WARRIORS.

What's the matter, Jack? Again I must ask: Are you afraid that others will find value in my opinions? I see you still cannot identify anything within those opinions that is not accurate.

Fact: Jack "Savage" Sellner is so bitter about my Hikuta review that he can only attack me -- because he cannot defend that in which he so ardently believes.

Fact again: I'm not much of a fan of "ding dongs." I'm more of a "Twinkie" or "Zinger" person.

You really ought to be proud of yourself, Jack. Reading threads like this, I'm sure people will just be crawling out of the woodwork and throwing money at you, eager to train with such a brilliant, professional, mature individual.

Of course, it's possible a few of them will find it incredibly pathetic that you insist on referring to yourself as a "warrior." I can't imagine a more obvious manifestation of your insecurity than that. Maybe if you repeat it a few more times, you'll start to believe it -- but I wouldn't count on it having much of an affect on the rest of us.

[haamu]

Oh dear...

I am sorry for starting this thread, it wasn't my intention to start an open flamewar. I am also sorry for dissing your website Jack. Now, why don't we kids just let it be and go home?

Peace,
haamu

[Sharp Phil]

It's really not your fault, haamu. Jack and I have had this argument many times before; he usually starts falling apart after the first couple of posts, though the rate at which he comes unwound in the course of these arguments seems to be accelerating, of late.

When I first encountered Mr. Sellner online I was never anything but civil to him. At James Sass' now-closed Close Combat discussion forum, a discussion of Hikuta came up and Jack did his best to defend its contrived history and absurd claims. When others -- myself included -- tried to point out to him exactly what he was trying to defend, his exact response was... let me see... "Eat crap and die," I believe. It went downhill from there, and he has been incapable of behaving like an adult in conversations with me ever since.

Hikuta and Jack "Savage" have been fairly roundly derided at almost every messageboard where they've been discussed, from e-budo (http://www.e-budo.com) (host to some long threads) to various EZboards (from which Jack was banned) to Self Defense Forums (http://www.selfdefenseforums.com) (where the moderators got so sick of the topic that they more or less promised to lock all future Hikuta-related discussion).

To be honest, I think my reviews of Hikuta have done more to promote awareness of the art than anything Jack has done, as most of the participants in the threads in which I find myself arguing with him (an experience akin to trying to talk down a mental patient -- you never know what leap of spurious logic he'll make next) had never heard of Hikuta before the threads in question were started.

[No_Know]

Hikuta struking seems to be determination and commitment. With slight weightshifting for Speed.

[bustr]

Here is an interesting links showing an Egyptian boxer using the same hand formations used in Hikuta.

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/GeogHist/histories/Oldcivilization/Egyptology/Sports/ancsportsg1.htm

http://www.aafla.org/OlympicInformationCenter/OlympicReview/1938/ORUE1/ORUE1c.pdf

I suspect hikuta's origins are not Pharaonic though. The term "kuta yuddha" is Sanskrit for "secret war". Yuddha is sometimes used in reference to martial arts especially wrestling (See "Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts" by Donn Draeger). So kuta is likely a wrongly applied term used by Westerners to describe some sort of central Asian boxing method like the Muki boxing and Vajramushti of India and Pakistan. The Roma who settled Europe claimed to be Egyptian so they could market their crafts since Europeans were none the wiser. It could've come with them.

Besides Oriental martial arts schools embellish the histories of their arts and overemphasize the importance of their arts in historical events so why shouldn't Hikuta do the same.

[bustr]

Also folks here are some of the people with whom a certain 10 year yellow belt has taken issue:

John Kary and The American Combatives Association
(lost his sight defending this loudmouth's right to free speech)

John Keehan, aka Count Dante
(Been dead for 28 years)

http://www.martialart.org/
(pretty sure this was a joke)

http://www.chipwrightkarate.com/
(A student of Chuck Norris)

Dave Walmsley and "Canadian Combato"

Dr. John "The Speed Man" Latourette
(Maybe not the best program but phil and don don't offer anything better;Then again they can't)

Grandmaster Verkerke
http://www.bushido.org (A website hosting service)

Self Defense in 7 Minutes
(Don't know about this one but 7 minutes is over double the time that Bruce Siddle suggests for learning a technique:D

[Sharp Phil]

Do you really wish to ally yourself with the crackpots at "Self Defense In 7 Minutes" and other nutjobs, bustr?

"bustr," of course, is another of the small but dedicated group of Hikuta trolls who spend their sleepless nights cursing the fact that I don't buy into their precious system. Let's be certain, about this, bustr --


Besides Oriental martial arts schools embellish the histories of their arts and overemphasize the importance of their arts in historical events so why shouldn't Hikuta do the same.

You're saying, essentially, that it's okay to lie to establish false credibility for the art in which you believe, because other people lie about other arts?

I have never seen such monumental martial arts insecurity (http://www.philelmore.com/profiling/insecure.htm) as where this ridiculous system is concerned.

I think it's time all three or four of you sat out a night or two seriously contemplating why my opinion threatens you so much.

[bustr]

""bustr," of course, is another of the small but dedicated group of Hikuta trolls who spend their sleepless nights cursing the fact that I don't buy into their precious system. Let's be certain, about this, bustr --"

And you accuse jack of resorting to insults. I have nothing to sell. If you don't like the style then stay away from it. For the record I'm not a hikuta stylist. That should've been evident from my post. You appear to be worshipping at the alter of Eastern arts. You should find a cult organization like Chung Moo Do or an aikido group. I think you'd fit into an aikido class very well. That's if it didn't hurt your little wrists too much.

[Sharp Phil]

Oh, did I hurt your poor little feelings?

You and Jack enjoy your quality time together. :)

[bustr]

NO

Phil "For years now my accomplishments in the martial arts have been unofficial...." Sharp

You did not.:D

[Sharp Phil]

That's good. I'd hate to be responsible for sending you home crying at the end of the day.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: you and Jack need to seriously question why my opinion threatens you so much.

[apoweyn]

oh, for christ's sake. the lot of you are barking lunatics. jack 'savage' and his facts. (crack a dictionary, jack. "Fact: Elmore has had a jihad against Hikuta since it has become apparent that it is far more effective and effecient than anything he has ever "studied." that's not a fact. that's opinion. learn the difference.) sharp phil. you've gotten every bit as petty and ridiculous as jack.

personally, i wouldn't touch hikuta or sharp phil's reviews after this debacle.


stuart b.

[Sharp Phil]

I don't think giving better than you get makes one "petty" or "ridiculous." I didn't start this thread or this argument, after all. I'm sorry if you've found the argument distasteful, Stuart, but I stand behind my work and I think it speaks for itself.

Respectfully,

Phil

[apoweyn]

i think they speak for themselves too. making this sort of crap throwing rather unnecessary. and, as it turns out, counterproductive.


stuart b.

[Sharp Phil]

To be perfectly honest, Stuart, you're right; arguments of this type are counterproductive. My Wing Chun instructor, for whom I have a great deal of respect, said as much too; he told me to focus on what I'm doing and ignore nonsense such as this.

When one finds oneself attacked personally for daring to express one's opinion, however, it is very challenging not to respond. I won't let someone challenge my integrity or the quality of my work in such a dishonest fashion without responding to it. If Mr. Sellner or his friend have a substantive issue to raise regarding the content of something I've written, I am happy to hear it (and this goes for anything else I've written where any other individuals are concerned). I strongly doubt that is the case, though; they seem to take this very personally, which is the root of the problem.

[JacSavage]

"Hikuta struking seems to be determination and commitment. With slight weightshifting for Speed."

That is correct to a degree.

Weight shifting is more for power than speed however. There are other methods to develop the famed Hikuta power as well- all easy to master.

To develop speed do the DOK Lee drills. For even MORE speed do the additional drills that I show in my courses.

As good as the DOK Lee package was; it was only intended to be a HIghlights of Kuta course (hikuta- get it?).

I have no idea who buster is- opporsex perhaps?

If that is he, I wouldn't call him a hard core Hikuta guy. He may have seen the Dok lee package.

As I recall, he is an istructor in several martial arts putting together his own system- from a variety of sources- Hikuta may be one.

Note that the Elmore hate list contains mainly those out of favor with the gurus of the now defunct Close Combat -" my way or the highway"- board. Even tho some are just variants (Whamsley's combato for example) of the same WW2 combatives they support?

humorously- did anyone read the posts where guru Ralph Grosso took Elmore to task for starting crap on that board? See Elmore grovel and scrape for forgiveness! IF anyone has that thread copied please send it to me!

Jack Savage
HikutaCombatSystems.com

[JacSavage]

If anyone wants to do a search for Hikuta you will find negative posts concerning Hikuta from Elmore dating to at least March of 2001- many months before he ever saw any Hikuta material - which was around Aug of 2001.

Fact: Elmore had his pea brain already made up about Hikuta LONG before seeing any material.

Saw T surfer the other night- he said he surfed into Elmore's site and saw his pic- "He looks like a fat ass psudo intellectual to me" was the comment.

I always though of him more of a pencil necked geek- so which is correct Elmore?

Fact : feet on the ground Matt Furey has adapted some of the Speed Mans' technique for striking. So is Speed Man really as messed up as Elmore says?

Fact: Matt Furey sent a rep ( Robinson I think) to grapple with Systema guru Val V to see if he was for real. Result? Furey is forced to give grudging respect due to butt whooping his rep got. So is Systema really just esoteric BS as Elmore would have us to believe? ? Furey was highly negative towards it a few years ago- especially after the "psychic ability tape" - but mentor Gotch said he was the real deal- inspiring Furey to investigate further.

Furey is more of what I'd call a true professional- not afraid to admit when he is wrong- although it will doubtless cost him some sales.

[FatherDog]

Fact: In Furey's latest writings for Grappling magazine, he claims to be receiving wrestling advice from the deceased spirit of Farmer Burns.

I'd think twice before listing him as a reference for anything.

[Sharp Phil]

Note that the Elmore hate list contains mainly those out of favor with the gurus of the now defunct Close Combat -" my way or the highway"- board. Even tho some are just variants (Whamsley's combato for example) of the same WW2 combatives they support?

I have a "hate list?" I wasn't aware that I hated anybody.

I do believe I've commented previously that I find "Whammer" somewhat unpleasant in terms of his behavior online. I have never commented on the validity of "Canadian Combato" as a style.


humorously- did anyone read the posts where guru Ralph Grosso took Elmore to task for starting crap on that board? See Elmore grovel and scrape for forgiveness! IF anyone has that thread copied please send it to me!

If I had it, I'd send it myself. If I remember correctly, Ralph expressed distaste for some thread or other to which I linked -- I don't remember if it was Hikuta-related or not -- and I apologized for irritating him. If that's "groveling and scraping," fine. I happen to think Ralph's a nice guy and didn't see any reason to annoy him intentionally.


If anyone wants to do a search for Hikuta you will find negative posts concerning Hikuta from Elmore dating to at least March of 2001- many months before he ever saw any Hikuta material - which was around Aug of 2001.

Any negative comments I made about Hikuta before I viewed the Hikuta material were directed specifically at A) your attitude and behavior and B) the obviously contrived history of the art. I had nothing to say about the techniques of Hikuta (and clearly stated this fact) until after I acquired the DOK Lee book.


Fact: Elmore had his pea brain already made up about Hikuta LONG before seeing any material.

I had my pea brain made up about you, Jack, but I was willing to give Hikuta itself a chance.


Saw T surfer the other night- he said he surfed into Elmore's site and saw his pic- "He looks like a fat ass psudo intellectual to me" was the comment.

Surely you are brave enough to make your own insults about my fat-assed pseudo-intellectuality, Jack. Why hide behind your friend?


I always though of him more of a pencil necked geek- so which is correct Elmore?

"When did you stop beating your wife?"


Fact : feet on the ground Matt Furey has adapted some of the Speed Mans' technique for striking. So is Speed Man really as messed up as Elmore says?

I have never commented in any way on the "Speed Man," other than to remark that I'd found myself in disagreement with him (specifically, with some of the marketing claims associated with him). I did not say how or why then, nor have I since. How does this in any way quantify a degree of "messed up-edness" to which we could or would assign to him?


Fact: Matt Furey sent a rep ( Robinson I think) to grapple with Systema guru Val V to see if he was for real. Result? Furey is forced to give grudging respect due to butt whooping his rep got. So is Systema really just esoteric BS as Elmore would have us to believe? ?

I have never said Systema is "esoteric BS." I have never commented on the content of Systema at all, other than to remark that others have alleged repeatedly that some of Vlad's tapes contain some psychic silliness that sounds questionable to any reasonable person. I have obtained several of Vladimir's tapes and will review them eventually; I have not commented on the content or quality of his work apart from reporting the allegations I have mentioned.


Furey was highly negative towards it a few years ago- especially after the "psychic ability tape" - but mentor Gotch said he was the real deal- inspiring Furey to investigate further.

Which, I guess, prompted the visits from the Ghost of Farmer Burns Past late one Christmas Eve...


Furey is more of what I'd call a true professional- not afraid to admit when he is wrong- although it will doubtless cost him some sales.

Furey is also an unabashed salesman who does silly things like market "Bush vs. Saddam" in the name of making sales. One presumes this offsets the loss that admitting he was wrong might cost him.

Why do you care so much what I think, Jack?

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by JacSavage
If anyone wants to do a search for Hikuta you will find negative posts concerning Hikuta from Elmore dating to at least March of 2001- many months before he ever saw any Hikuta material - which was around Aug of 2001.

Fact: Elmore had his pea brain already made up about Hikuta LONG before seeing any material.

Saw T surfer the other night- he said he surfed into Elmore's site and saw his pic- "He looks like a fat ass psudo intellectual to me" was the comment.

I always though of him more of a pencil necked geek- so which is correct Elmore?

Fact : feet on the ground Matt Furey has adapted some of the Speed Mans' technique for striking. So is Speed Man really as messed up as Elmore says?

Fact: Matt Furey sent a rep ( Robinson I think) to grapple with Systema guru Val V to see if he was for real. Result? Furey is forced to give grudging respect due to butt whooping his rep got. So is Systema really just esoteric BS as Elmore would have us to believe? ? Furey was highly negative towards it a few years ago- especially after the "psychic ability tape" - but mentor Gotch said he was the real deal- inspiring Furey to investigate further.

Furey is more of what I'd call a true professional- not afraid to admit when he is wrong- although it will doubtless cost him some sales.


now it's a jihad. my god, this is pathetic. why don't you just go ahead and say, "if you read sharp phil's reviews, the terrorists have already won." good grief. if this is how far you're going to sink, actually, why not go ahead and skip to the hitler analogies. you know you want to.


stuart b.

[Sharp Phil]

See what I mean, Stuart?

[red5angel]

so does hikuta work or not?

[JacSavage]

that is a great tape!

Humor was great!

Trying to watch furey pull his shots ala like a pro -wrestler was almost worth the $ for it!

He demo's some real world simple catch anyone can easily master.

Best part: he shows the isometic system -which is the heart of his new $600 Gamma fitness-for a fraction of the price.

I at first passed on this - thinking it was just a comedy tape.

Glad I got it now- won't be tempted to buy the Gamma course until it goes to ebay for about a %30 discount.

Gave me a great marketing idea too : "Savage vs fat ass Phil: the brutal(?) showdown!!" Disguised as a comedy tape it will actually show many great techniques! Also some great detective work as cowardly FAP hides in a donut shop in terror and tries to disguise himself by eating his way up another 50 lbs.

I'll anounce the release date soon!


Jack Savage

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
See what I mean, Stuart?

yeah, mate. i see what you mean. i have right from word 'go.' i'd just encourage you not to get bogged down in it. if you've written the review, and you stand by it, then bugger this nonsense. i understand that's tough if jack calls you out by name though.

seriously though, this thread is going nowhere worth going. no need for you to go with it.


stuart b.

[Sharp Phil]

Probably good advice, Stuart. He's practically foaming at the mouth at this point.

[rogue]

Phil,
I totally disagree with you about Systema being bunk. How could you say such a thing? But I do agree with you calling Wing Chun a martial art built around patty cake. Gutsy call that one. Whoops did you publish that one yet?

[Sharp Phil]

When did I call Systema "bunk?" And for heavens' sake, when did I call Wing Chun a system built around "patty cake?"

(We Wing Chun practitioners know the system is built around the clamping of goats, and the less said about that, the better.)

[rogue]

It was in your latest e-book "Fun with Phil", published by Kerwin Venison, in the chapter between Romo Eroticism & BJJ and the chapter titled "Why I Sharp Phil can Kick Marvin Perry's Butt".

[Sharp Phil]

Oh! Okay, I forgot about that because they're out of stock. The publisher said my photo on the book jacket keeps breaking presses, so it's hard to keep that one on the shelves.

[rogue]

Just kidding with you Phil, but you are right about SCARS being the bomb.

[Sharp Phil]

http://www.philelmore.com/images/biggayal.gif

[rogue]

Phil,
Did Tim Larkin have a falling out with Peterson? In general how SCARS like was his new stuff. What's the story.

And remember Phil, if it's in SWAT or SOF it has to be good.;)

[Sharp Phil]

I haven't followed any of the politics, if any. I reviewed some SCARS tapes here (http://www.philelmore.com/martial/scars.htm) and I'm in the process of viewing a series of tapes that comprise a Larkin TFT seminar filmed just before September 11, 2001 (if I remember correctly). The material is quite similar, including such familiar SCARS techniques as that radial arm strike against an incoming punch, the strings of techniques forming fighting combinations, etc.