View Full Version : HAKKA PAK MEI

09-11-2000, 01:36 AM
What is the difference between ''Hakka Pak Mei'' and Cantonese Pak Mei?

Enlighten me INTEGRAMAN. As I think you are a great philosipher.

wisdom mind
09-11-2000, 01:41 AM
burn dem

[This message has been edited by wisdom mind (edited 09-11-2000).]

09-11-2000, 01:54 AM
Wisdom Mind
Thank you for your reply.
You must know a lot on the subject.
So what is the difference then?

wisdom mind
09-11-2000, 02:17 AM
I know very little in regards to the depths of Pak Mei, I am a 6th generation disciple of the system however.

As far as I know Pak Mei came out of the Canton region, perhaps the Hakka influence came into play when Sigung added supplemental forms to the system to allow beginners to train and shape their bodies properly in order to prepare to learn real Pak Mei-so in effect Canton and Hakka Pak Mei would be the same thing with no real distinction.

Maybe someone down the line altered the style again for their own purposes and labeled it "Canton style" or markets it as "Hakka"

I by no means am stating this as 100% true Pak Mei lineage info, just my take on the question asked.

Mantis 108 here can probably explain this in detail.

Post to him or email sifu1@internorth.com for direct answer. Also use the search feature here on KFO...there have been a # of threads on Southern Hakka and Cantonese styles and how that relates to Pak Mei.

I hope this helps a bit, if my info is not good, ill change it upon correction.

burn the wikked

[This message has been edited by wisdom mind (edited 09-11-2000).]

09-12-2000, 01:13 AM
Hi Wisdom Mind
You certainly live up to your name.
Thank you for your reply it is quite interesting.
You say you are 6th generation Pak Mei.
What do you think of lineage?
Have you finished your study or are you still a beginner?
Who is your master and where could i get some lessons? Do you teach? If so how much are your lessons?

wisdom mind
09-12-2000, 07:12 PM
What do you think of lineage?
I think lineage is many times political, and used in poor contexts. I look at lineage as a tie to the past, if you are further away, the information is more diluted than if you are closer to the source. Me being in the 6th gen, is interesting, in that many of my Si-hing (kung fu brothers) are in their 90's, and there are in Hong Kong 11 and 12th gen at this time, each with persons who are older than me. The 90 year olds in the 6th generation are looked at as my more experienced "peers", while chronologically older persons than me in the later generations are my "younger" brothers.

Pak Mei being relatively young as a style, can be easily traced, so a person whom is a 5th or 6th gen practitoner of the style, is really close to the source, 6th being more diluted. A reason for such is that people go to jobs nowadays and cannot practice 8-14 hours a day.

it all boils down to the individual though.

i am not in the capacity to teach at this time you can check my school site

for the breakdown and class info.

[This message has been edited by wisdom mind (edited 09-13-2000).]

09-13-2000, 04:16 AM
Hi Wisdom Mind
What Grade are you?
I've heard that there are five forms to Pak Mei. Is this true?
What form are You currently on?
Where I'm from there are no schools available to go and study.I even tried tthinking of getting some videos. Does your teacher do any corresponding courses?
How many years have you been practicing.
Are you satisfied?
I ask these questions only to find if I can be a worthy student.
Thanks for the time you give me.
From an avid Pak Mei enthusiast.

wisdom mind
09-13-2000, 06:57 PM
you can email me at iandijah@hushmail.com if you would like the above answered...

09-13-2000, 10:04 PM
Hi Hing and Wisdom Mind,

How goes it?

The Canton and HK both Bak Mei, IMHO, would be the same with different Sifu favour different aspects of the art. Sigung Cheung Lai Chun did taught in both places. It is also important to remember that Bak Mei system sometime is not taught with a set curriculum. The HK Bak Mei association seemed to have put out a regular curriculum to remedy that.

I for one would suggest seeking out a Sifu in the long run. Wisdom Mind has given you some good advice.

Hi Wisdom Mind,

Long time no chat. How's your Sifu, practice, and New York?

Please feel free to email me at sifu1@internorth.com


Contraria Sunt Complementa

09-17-2000, 02:07 PM
in concerns of how many bak mei forms in the system, there are more than 5 original forms. cheung lai chung learnt many more original forms and added 5 to his dragon. cheung lai chung bak mei is not original, he claimed himself as bak mei grand master. what you see is dragon shadow that was lam yui gwa's dragon...that is a FACT. i have the original bak mei system. cheung lai chung was so doped up on opium, he made half of the stuff up to earn more money for his habit.

many of cheung lai chungs top students left him because of his habit and did not want to be part of his clan.

sorry to spoil your day, but this is true...

ps. he was still a good fighter because he didnt feel pain /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

09-17-2000, 07:42 PM
It takes most of us MONTHS seriously...

You have "the original Bak Mei System" huh? LOL
Are you gonna fill us in a little more?

wisdom mind
09-17-2000, 08:09 PM
Fierce Tiger...are you James Lacy by chance?

say. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

09-17-2000, 08:43 PM
I'm curious as to the "original" Bak Mei system.

Things like: Lineage, Theories, Training Metodolgy, Forms (5 form which 5? more than 5 forms?)

In forms alone, I thing you have already put yourself(ves) in a perdicument. If we were to agreed there are 5 fives, what makes yours more "original" than ours? If we were not to agreed, than what proves do you have to the authenticities? Sigung's teaching was well documented through out time. What about your original system? Anything that we can read?

I have been in the Kung Fu community both in HK and in North American little more than 25 years. Not once have I heard or read anything about Sigung had a substance abuse problem. Things like that can not be around without any rumours and gossips especially in HK. What did he do to you to deserve this?

To prove yourself(ves) worthy is definitely not by making false claims.


Contraria Sunt Complementa

09-17-2000, 10:53 PM
sorry to be so abrupt. the 5 forms that you have are - jik bo kuen, sek see kuen, gau bo toy, sup bat moe kui, mung fu chut lam. they are 5 forms that clc favoured and taught as original bak mei. those 5 forms are taught as the core, the other forms were created from dragon and mixed when clc resided to hong kong. also to make things even worse. theres a bak mei wing chun being put together using the principles of bak mei to better the system of wing chun.

ive heard about this kung fu chat line and that you all seem to be fightibg each other and disrespecting each other and other styles. its not nice is it.....

no im not lacy. i dont know who lacy is.... ive studied in guangou, i will not give out my sifus name.
dont be blinded behind clc's forms. you all know that there are a lot of unknown bak mei practitioners or teachers, articles now coming out of the woodwork and you guys are in shock. clc isnt even heard of on some bak mei family trees....(why?)

when i say original, there are really no original systems because the teacher would have studied other styles to create the system.

regarding the drugs - of course your sifu would not want to tell you the stories of your gm. that would be disrespect. dont tell me you have NEVER heard anything about it... ask around.

nevertheless it is still a good system. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

wisdom mind
09-17-2000, 11:16 PM
and your source regarding Sigung's drug use is?... /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

and they are reliable because of?....

09-17-2000, 11:25 PM
i agree with fierce tiger, there are 18 hand forms including training forms and weapon sets directly for pak mei system. even jik bo kuen isn,t the original. if they are original why is it that there are variations.
the monks asked that the system be not taught to the public and what clc did was water down the system and teach something else and called it pak mei.
the more money you paid to cover his drug habit then he taught you more real pak mei.
why is it that even his children have different versions of the same forms.
unfortunately clc is not as honourable as it seems.
no teacher will tarnish the name of his sifu /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
it is unfortunate that this needs to be out in the open as pak mei is a very powerful system, but the truth is that clc learnt the real complete system of pak mei which includes more that just 5 forms.

[This message was edited by bigbear on 09-18-00 at .]

wisdom mind
09-17-2000, 11:58 PM
please post the name of one person and their qualifications who can back this information up and can be reached for discussion on the net or by phone

(dead persons obviously do not apply)

you can email me at iandijah@hushmail.com if you do not wish to post this info.

09-18-2000, 12:00 AM
dear mantis + wis-mind
i respect you guys,but there's nothing wrong
with admitting you got beaten by f-tiger+b-bear.now, i don't know them but they might be correct[i don't know].moore to the point no one does [clc did drugs].[except himself]

i beleive the 1st+most important form is
MA-bo or MA-Poo isn't it guys?

wisdom mind
09-18-2000, 12:10 AM
I and I respect that I have not been "beaten" by anyone on this forum at this time, thanks

have a nice day

where is the answer to the question I posted?

09-18-2000, 12:57 AM
you possibly can't provide any proof that
he didn't take drugs nor his credenciels or yours
that's why you been beaten...sorry.

you realy do wish you were wise....i pitty you

wisdom mind
09-18-2000, 01:35 AM
you possibly can't provide any proof that
he didn't take drugs

Have I written anyplace that I thought he did not?

nor his credenciels or yours

This makes no sense please clarify.

that's why you been beaten...sorry.

Im undefeated...sorry

you realy do wish you were wise....i pitty you

your pity is nothing to me...
keep it for one who needs it...

wisdom mind refers to a collected intelligence that exists in the universe, Not an individual (me, in this case) claming to have any particular wisdom, you spoke/wrote quickly on that one without knowing what you were talking about.

do not make such assumptions in your training

this ends our little chat "newbie".
keep it to yourself, start your own thread, or email me if you want further insights

anyone care to back their claims up?

09-18-2000, 07:19 AM
bigbear - thanks for the reply. obviously your info is very similar to what i was told. of course most of our generation doesnt know about clc's drug habit bacause all those masters that trained with him have passed away. students of those teachers that trined back then were told not to talk about it because it would give bak mei and clc a bad name.

there are 18 hand forms and there are a variety of training forms to develop ging, you are correct bigbear. there is different ying jow sup jee, sek see kuen, etc... every bak mei teacher has a different version. i was told even clc's 2 sons have been taught completely different version to each other, but will they agree? (oops, i see you already said that.)

there are more forms in vietnam apparently. can you guys explain forms that hong kong do not have? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

i hope this gives you a little more explanation.
ive been doing martial arts for 20 years. one style being bak mei.

wisdom mind - you are probably hoping that we are the same person, but this is my only username. i cannot speak for the others.

[This message was edited by fierce tiger on 09-19-00 at .]

09-18-2000, 08:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I am a friend of Cheung Lai Chin, Grandmaster Chin died in front of me in a teahouse while having tea in the early 60's. I regret to tell you that you are wrong, Grandmaster Cheung Lai Chin doesn't have a Opium habit. You must have mistaken him for his son Cheung Bing Sum whom did died of a opium overdorse.
Yes, Cheung Lai Chin taught KwangChou and in Hong Kong. Also yes, Cheung Lai Chin learn the only 5 Bak Mae forms from the monk Kwong Wai whom was a decendant of the Monk Bak Mae, also yes, Chueng Lai Chin had learn the Lung Ying Pai and other systems before meeting that monk that taught him Bak Mae. And yes the original Bak Mae system was named after her inventor the monk Bak Mae. [/quote]

Hehehe, there you go, some people actually know what they are talking about...

If you guys don't have anything to do with Bak Mei Pai then what are you gossiping about? It looks like you are just passing on bad info and rumour to stir up sh*t, possibly out of boredom... and we all know what THAT means...

[This message was edited by MoQ on 09-19-00 at .]

09-18-2000, 02:29 PM
mor Q
i know that his son died of an overdose but i thought i would give you some face by not mentioning it. i also know that clc died at a tea house.
still that doesnt mean jack to me, maybe you are a little dissapointed to hear that from someone else.

im not trying to start any trouble/gossip only telling what i have been told by my sifu. i thought you may want to know this about your systems founder.

still you cant just think that clc is the only person that learnt pak mei. dont be so blind.
are you a student of man kwong fong?

09-18-2000, 06:13 PM
...cuz you are just passing on your stool samples with no forethought, talking about things you know nothing about.

What have you experienced besides gossip that backs up your slander? My source was a personal
friend. You could put on your shi fu, or HIS shi fu. Put on your source and see if he can handle it. Did any of them know CLC? Is there ANY firsthand info coming from your direction?

I didn't think so...face it, you've LOST.

I don't practice Bak Mei, but Mantis108 and wisdom mind are my buds and you can't just pop on talkin' crap!

09-18-2000, 11:15 PM
mor q
what style are you studying? is it dragon or pak mei. who is the old man you mentioned, at the tea house?

you didnt answer my question on the wing chun or vietnam versions of pak mei. i know that some of clc students went to vietnam but they have different forms, not like h/k.

open your eyes and have an open mind as the teachings dictate, you should realise that more has happened in the world than what you have known about. after all, that it is an inperfect world that we live in and some people have weaknesses. during that era many kung fu masters succumbed to the influence of opium.

09-19-2000, 01:34 AM
Wisdom Mind
You have exelled yourself this time.
Your teachings have made you no more than a bully. Preying on the weak or ''newbies'' as you put it.
You wrote''I'm undefeated'' Were you in a fight to hold on to YOUR TRUTH. With the reaction you released seems to me you're just a beginner.
Where is Mantis now to hold your hand.
Take it like a man you lost BIG TIME bro.
You little boy do you think you really speak for the collective intelligence of the universe.
Don't be so blind.
You have my pity also.[you need all you can get from your Kung Fu brothers]

09-19-2000, 03:15 AM
hi wis-mind
i don't understand why you attack me?yes i am a new member.were you not a new member?
i'm still learning kung fu let alone computers.
have you finished your training,kung fu that is?
because you talk as if you have,and everybody owes you.are you repressed?..or frustrated in anyway?
please don't lash out. i don't think your
si-fu tought you this way.it doesn't make you above anyone but abit lost.....

thanks cloud 1 for sticking up for me.you
may mean well but i don't see myself as weak only
as nieve or taken advantage of.....

don't be hard on the guy we all have alot to learn.....

09-19-2000, 10:35 PM
does anyone know the bak mei bat fut or 8 methods. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

wisdom mind
09-19-2000, 10:49 PM
im not a battibwoy so i will
not be holding any mans hand, thanks

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif im a bully...this is one of the most amusing and incorrect statements i have ever read.

i am most far from that bwoy/gyal ...sensitive maybe, I am a bully not at all...I have a bully doggie she definately is a rude gyal, fi sure

if you attack me i will defend myself, thats it. nothing less than that.

if you want to see a bullie doggie look at
www.ironsidekennels.com (http://www.ironsidekennels.com)

i never have and never will claim to speak FOR a collective intelligence, nor do i have any type of complex in which I place I and I above any person or animal or bug or brick for that matter

i attempted to illustrate that i speak FROM a collective intelligence, as i and i see that that is how i and i be (im not stuttering BTW).

i cyan see the connection that you extrapolated from reading quickly, as info here is in unemotional text format (this forum)

id love to continue any type of conversation that is in the interests of education and furthering understanding in this nook of the universe.

men of 1000 handles...if i made an error in distinguishing you folx, then i firmly apologize

[This message was edited by wisdom mind on 09-20-00 at .]

[This message was edited by wisdom mind on 09-20-00 at .]

[This message was edited by wisdom mind on 09-20-00 at .]

09-20-2000, 01:43 AM
get off your high-horse and stop waffling.write something contructive and of intrest,stop pretending and stop denying its pretty "lap sap"

09-20-2000, 02:03 AM
You and Mantis, YOU mean.
Very collective!!!

09-20-2000, 02:18 AM
...is because all 4(now) of you showed up almost the same day and came straight here to dis CLC and attack Wisdom Mind and anyone else your little minds decided were Man Kwong Fong students. We see trolls around here all the time and if any bunch ever showed up with an agenda it's you guys. If by chance you do not know each other, I suggest you may all be controlled by some alien mind force...
I personally haven't seen anything positive from you newbies and I wonder why you dare to be so bold and disrespectful in your new environment?

09-20-2000, 02:46 AM
"cheung lai chung bak mei is not original, he claimed himself as bak mei grand master."
Well SOMEBODY has to take the credit, sheesh!

"i have the original bak mei system."
The prolific use of the word "original" when used in this forum is so... original.

"cheung lai chung was so doped up on opium, he made half of the stuff up to earn more money for his habit."
From where I sit, you sound like you're trying to earn something. Interesting, I go back to the previous threads containing all that wonderful information on the Three Tigers of the East River, and I can't picture these dudes actually teaching to get more money, especially not for drugs. If that were so, wouldn't it be a little more prolific and a little less pure?

"many of cheung lai chungs top students left him because of his habit and did not want to be part of his clan."
Wait... were these the guys who supported his opium habit? Now you've really got me confused.

"sorry to spoil your day, but this is true..."
Well, you present an interesting and plausible story, yet there are so many people whom I honor and believe prior to you.

"ps. he was still a good fighter because he didnt feel pain "
Oh, anyone here have any experience with opium? I will hesitatingly say that opium use doesn't fit this man's profile.

And as far as anyone being a bully here, I'm not sure the role has been filled. I for one am not at ease when someone new comes out and says such disrespectful things, and will occasionally retort. What does anyone expect when they publicly profane an honored man?

I'm sure Mantis and Kevin are staying away because they have no use for this trivial banter. My lung ying sifu claims strong lineage, yet he would NEVER defame another master. I highly suspect any "sifu" who would stoop so low as to negatively speak of a brethren within his/her own style.

There, that's my two cents.


09-20-2000, 02:47 AM
Dear MoQ,
I honestly don't know you guys. I have heard about Grand Master CLC, But I don't know him either!!! I would never disrespect CLC. From my postings you can see. The original question was ''What is the difference between Hakka Pak Mei and Cantonese Pak Mei'' not which one was better!!! Widom Mind Replied that the only Pak Mei worth learning about was CLC's. THAT is disrespecting all other teachers who teach Pak Mei. But as you can see he has edited that part.Why?
I don't blame him for supporting his art but he sould not be so narrow minded and think that CLC[the person] is Pak Mei[the person]. Would you agree?

09-20-2000, 02:55 AM
as you can see i did not dis CLC .my father was 12
when he saw CLC,and told me "he was and still is a great pak-mei practisioner and must understand he is not the person,man,or maby myth"[unlike wis-mind words it all comes from CLC]

can you also see that maby f-tiger and b-bear might be hak-ka pak-mei idon't know what cloud1 is but i am none of them but only a begginer.
i just open eyes[simply]

09-20-2000, 06:53 AM
Hakka Pak Mei and Cantonese Bak Mei are the same thing. Bak Mei is from szechuan O'mei mts. and is only "hakka" by way of CLC. CLC may NOT be the man Bak Mei, but anyone with an alternative lineage has alot of explaining to do. CLC MADE UP all but 5 original forms. He got these forms from the Kwong Wei monk and this was the legacy of the legendary White Eyebrow monk, BUT IT WAS NOT CALLED "Bak Mei". ANYONE teaching an art called "Bak Mei" got it from CLC. If they have anything SIMILAR, they got it from CLC. If it is extremely variant or they have more forms...THEY MADE THEM UP.

So Y'all...tell us where you boys get your "original" Bak Mei material? Where do these "18 forms" come from? What is this mysterious lineage? Did you find a purer lineage than the Kwong Wei monk? Maybe CLC was just TOO HIGH to track down the REAL STUFF? Who ARE you people?

09-20-2000, 08:05 AM
why did kwong wai teach clc only 5 forms, then go out to teach mixing it with dragon style. wasnt the rest of the forms good enough or simple he just didnt know them. i have alot of respect for the clc clan of bak mei, but to say that there isnt more so called original forms how do you really know.... only because you read a book on clc 9 stpep push or your sifu told you so or only because clc told him that history.
meltdown or meltout,
i only said clc took drugs not the other 2 dudes..
so stop trying to cause more infighting. im not here to fight or argue that clc wasnt a respected sifu but to tell the story i was told. of course no one /student likes to here that the gm did anything wrong.....
i did not say he was a good fighter because he was on drugs a ment drus can block out pain....

the 3 styles are hakka decendants, and thats my 2 cents worth.

wisdom mind
09-20-2000, 06:41 PM
I dont ride horses

Cloud - back off

collective intellegence seems to be difficult for some to grasp, email me if you want to gain further insight, otherwise this is nonsensical and nonproductive with the insults and shizznit

whoever-I do not know Mantis108, never met him
we have separate Sifus with different teachings, we are not in cohorts, i respect him as knowlegable and articulate and consistent in being positive and free with information dissemination.

At this time I and I will state that it surely is possible for there to be non CLC Pak Mei out there, through the Kwong Wei monk, or someone else who knows? as said by others it would be hard to trace but id love to get some real facts on this ....so in effect my statement that Pak Mei only comes by CLC was/is incorrect...happy?

i have no problem correcting meself when in error--lets keep discussions topical and not personal

I have also stated repeatedly that I do NOT speak for any Pak Mei Clan in any capacity - im a martial arts practitioner of 21 years and i like furthering knowledge and helping persons in all walks of life to help themselves out- if you knew me on a personal level, you would understand that as fact and would not question or challenge my integrity on bit

if you are a friend then here is a pound for you
"pound" (ghetto high five)

if you are an enemy, retreat wikked men of bablyon

if any have been offended by I and I then "sorry"

welcome new forum member(s) enjoy, try to dodge the insults and infintile bickering and get the wisdom flowing in the-not-"my"-mind

09-20-2000, 07:29 PM
... if you want to be taken seriously, you can't come on sayin' CLC was an addict and you have the "real" Bak Mei. You sound like you are trying to intimidate everyone with your rumours. It simply does not work to back yourself up by casting even more aspersions and doubt on the CLC Bak Mei clan that you falsely claim to respect. I didn't think that word was in your vocabulary, except when talking about YOUR shi fu... *yawn*

Instead of talkin' useless sh*t, why don't you tell us all about your great "alternative" Bak Mei lineage? Do you know what the term "contribution" means?
Do you really believe that anyone believes that CLC was a doper and you have the real system?

Bak Mei developed 5 forms. If you have 18, and the original 5 are there, your people made up 13 of them...

09-20-2000, 11:30 PM
mor q,
im not talking ****, there are really more than 18 forms to be exact... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
i think i know the problem, your scared of the unknown. you have been doing kung fu for many years and now you feel confused, but its ok...let it go.
one thing though mor q, i did find that lacy site and he sounds like ****, do you know more about this guy, and is white tiger gm doo wai legit. they say that heis system is similar to pak mei.
thankyou.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

09-20-2000, 11:44 PM
wisdom mind,
you sound to be humble at this time, im here to give my knowlegde thats all. thankyou for the welcome....theres a buddist saying


and for mor q


wisdom mind
09-20-2000, 11:59 PM
there is a thread about lacy...do a search here on kfo and youll get the lowdown

09-21-2000, 12:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I know Cheung Lai Chin doesn't smoke Opium and I know him personally, and yes, not all of us had died. Moron if your shifu is Bak Mae and he is talking all this mess then he should be considered an traitor to Cheung Lai Chin, if your shifu is not Bak Mae then he should keep his mouth shut, that is bad Kung Fu ethics, however, I think it is this egotistic punk that knows nothing about the life of Cheung Lai Chin and is talking **** to make himself think he is a know it all, Cheung Lai Chin was the only person that was taught Bak Mae that is why he is called the "Monk that is allowed to keep his hair" and also that is why he is the Jung Shee, Because he was the only person that was taught Bak Mae. Cheung Lai Chin taught different forms to different students so that it would fit their body type, then his students will change Bak Mae to the way he think it should be taught, therefore it is not Cheung Lai Chin that taught differently, it is his followers that taught differently.
If your shifu is of another system then how would he know about Cheung Lai Chin except for the rummors he may heard. It is another one of those crazy "My system is better than your system" BS. The system doesn't make a person a master, it is the person that master his system. I belived any good street fighter will beat most of those so called shifu out there. Those that slander others is a sign of their own insecurity and no confidence in himself and must run others down, if your shifu said all that then he couldn't be much good as a shifu of his system [/quote]

I guess it means that if you have something positive to offer, just do it. If you know Bak Mei that is unusual, be strong and tell us about it and we will try to be openminded. Don't expect an open mind when yer just spewing poop.

[This message was edited by MoQ on 09-21-00 at 05:56 PM.]

09-21-2000, 02:07 AM
well said mo-q
oh,sorry well said chinese freinds.
are they cantonese by any chance?
yes its me begginer would you enlighten me PLEASE
mo-q, on why every year so called cantonese pak-mei practisioners go to hak-ka villages to seek hak-ka teachers for their secret pak-mei.
if they had all CLC forms why bother?

also wheres HING in all this[who asked the question]

p.s f-tiger. my father explained to me,and i think i understand,however he said your lineage
should be kept underground where the roots lay.
i asked why? he would not answer.could you tell me? you don't have to if you don't want....

09-21-2000, 06:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> i did find that lacy site and he sounds like ****, do you know more about this guy, and is white tiger gm doo wai legit. they say that heis system is similar to pak mei.

fierce tiger- Jim Lacy is a total fraud and knows nothing of our gungfu except he makes $$ off the ignorant. It's all just a collection of bootleg videos and formulas stolen from the trash. Hopefully he will be exposed, prosecuted and sent back to prison for the 3rd time(forever).

Bak Fu Pai is real and so is Grandmaster Doo. The White Tiger system is south shorthand similar to Bak Mei, Jook Lum, Lung Ying, Fukien White Crane etc. with roots around the fall of the Ming dynasty. Legend has it that our monk, Feng Tao-Tak/Fung Doe Duk fled to O'Mei Shan with Bak Mei to escape persecution. He ended up with GM Doo's ancestor.

Who is the "they" you refer to?

09-21-2000, 11:50 PM
howdy mr tiger step,
thanks for the low down on lacy, your white tiger system sounds interesting. is it true about the five shaoilin monks can you share some insight on that. i also checked out your w/tiger web site very nice.
lacy has some forms on pak mei for sale, are they real pak mei forms. just one question though...
why would g/m doo wai make all those different form on video if they are trash... /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
is it true that clc taught gm wai his pak mei....

mor q-im not disrespecting clc, and what good would it be for me to make **** up, yor sifu is not telling you the truth... kung fu ethics practise what you preach f**Khead.im not here to stir up **** but i am sorry thet i have upset you or any other pak meist out there.

when you speak the truth you gain mpre friend, dont lie to people...

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

09-22-2000, 01:49 AM
I don't know what site you're talking about, but try this oneWhite Tiger site (http://www.whitetigerkungfu.com)...

Yes, there were supposedly 4 monks and a nun that fled the Fukien Shil Lum burning, but there were no "5-Elders" kungfu supergroup, that is all Jim Lacy's invention, as is most everything he says. He does this to try to claim other systems and embarrass GM Doo.

Sadly, alot of people desperate for info have plagiarized HIM and now the "5 Elders" are almost accepted as a reality. VERY VERY PATHETIC.

Lacy stole and absconded with a bunch of video stuff. It was not so much videos GM Doo made, but videos that were made OF him by different kempo parasites along the way. Most of the footage was actually stolen from kempo people and it was ALL JUST PASSIVE DEMO material.

Luckily, the ex-con Lacy and all his bootleg video "students" have absolutely no idea as to the nature of the Bak Fu Pai gungfu system.

09-22-2000, 02:09 AM
moq & wisdom mind :
for 2 impressive names you are both idiots.
Let me educate you.
Firstly, CLC was an accomplished martial artist prior to learning bak mei, so why would it take him 2 yrs to learn 5 forms.What are they that complex that it takes two years to learn considering he lived with the monks and trained all day.

Then there is the fact that bak mei is a traitors art. Didn't he betray siu lum to the manchus. Why would monks want a traitors art taught to the public??
CLC's "original" 5 forms were even modified by himself to teach to the public. the real bak mei system has 18 hand forms incl. training forms for each, two man fighting sets etc. as stated before.

What the bak mei system had no weapon sets originally. Guy's don't be so blinded by pride as to not see the truth.

We are by no means here to create turmoil, only to spread the truth.

The truth hurts, i know but live with it. The pain eases with time.

Why is it also that your version has to be the mainstream and the best. Why can't there be other versions of bak mei. What,do you think that bak mei was only learnt by on person. How many monks escaped siu lum, many would have learnt the system and gone their own ways. because it seems to me that you think every other bak mei is crap except for yours.
I would love to see what the other masters think that don't have CLC on their ancestorial trees about your views on that.

[This message was edited by bigbear on 09-22-00 at 07:31 PM.]

09-22-2000, 07:09 AM
MoQ - im sorry, i was a bit harsh in my last post there, ive had a really bad day. someone put a rock through the huge front window of the gwoon last night - im not feeling very charitable. im just a bit sick of the fighting and bickering between people, i guess i took it out on you.

it is very unfortunate that a story like this had to be brought out onto a public forum, but it is similar to some of the stories i have heard from other MA-ists. maybe these were stories that had been changed or mixed up over the years (you said clcs son was into opium?). like ive said in a previous thread, no one really knows the truth except those that were involved. everyone has an angle and everyone has an agenda, cant you all just let it go and get on with your lives and your arts.

Fubo - thanks for the info, i checked out the website - very cool. can you tell me more about the mew hing system and the vids? im always curious to know about traditional kung fu systems. but curiosity killed the cat huh? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ok guys - enough on this terrible pak mei topic, i am a mere beginner in Yau Kung Mun, but i know that this is disrespect. when you disrespect clc, you disrespect us too, our late GM was a student of clc before he learnt YKM.

blessed be,

"can't we all just get along..."

09-22-2000, 08:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> We are by no means here to create turmoil, only to spread the truth.


It's kind of spooky... all the shared catchphrases and stuff... /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Bigbear- y'all come on there with this "message" and an attitude, but I have heard nothing substantial about your art. There have been no answers to any questions. There has just been all these troll like insults directed at Bak Mei Pai's Chung Shi and then attacks on any person defending him, even his personal friends.

It's all moot. You say yourself that the only people who know the truth are the ones that were there and I've posted responses by someone WHO WAS THERE and you just quack about others accepting the "truth". You obviously wouldn't recognize it if you were to be presented with it.

I know there is no sincerity to your questions, but I'll ask my Old Chinese Friend if he wants to give you a response.

So, do you want to offer something substantial and go about claiming attention and stirring interest the old fashioned way?

09-22-2000, 01:15 PM
so who is you "old chinese friend"? you dont seem to be providing many answers either.do you have a connection with vietnam bak mei? what do you know about futsan pak mei? are you man kwong fongs todai?

big bear,
maybe we should train one day together!im interested in your pak mei.you sound to be open-minded, your teacher must be very good.

i have seen yau kung moon and they train hard i know some ykm practisioners. can you tell me about your sifu and his lineage...but i dont think im disrespectful, your ykm is clc as well as moq. still nothing wrong with that, my point is that there is other pak mei out there....

taoist saying of the day

be aware of the white all around you;
but remembering the black that is there...

09-23-2000, 04:06 AM
To all,
It is quite easy to make accusations. They told me this and he told me that. But if CLC was alive today would they be disrespecting him in the same way? Whatever you think of CLC, there's no denying he was a formidable martial artist!!!

09-24-2000, 03:03 AM
i agree cloud1,everyones arguing and not getting anywhere fast.at the end of day we still have our own opinions and beliefs.nothing has changed or have we?
signing off

09-24-2000, 02:19 PM
my sources are correct.

a clc pak mei sifu that i know also told me that clc took opium to block out and numb the pain during and after a fight.

he also used it as medicine. and some more info to disappoint you even lam yui gwa did it, maybe dragon and pak mei should open up a shooting galley..... ha ha ha

what i was told that they both took it together, because the always fought together.

so there we have no more fighting. "mo da!"

09-25-2000, 09:51 AM
To learn a form takes maybe 5 lessons. i agree with you that mastering forms takes a lifetime, however have you ever cross-trained, with other similar systems. like jow gar & hung gar, they are very similar and some techniques are almost the same.
so why can't you learn and master techniques from similar systems quicker.

all i said was that it took him 2 yrs to learn.
why don't you read before typing away.

you guys are so wrapped up in your little world that as soon as you hear something that you don't like you get all defensive.

Fierce Tiger :
I appreciate your kind words, you seem to be a man of great wisdom. I would be honoured to train with you sometime & my SIFU would like to meet you

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

09-26-2000, 03:10 AM
Was your SiFu beaten by CLC?
What connection if any does he have with CLC?
You don't have to answer if your scared of what your SiFu's incompetence.

09-26-2000, 08:50 AM
cloud 9 your on drugs, get of the crack.

my sifu never was defeated by cheung lai chun they didnt even speak to each other. what style do you learn or are you a sifu. you do not know a thing about kung fu. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

09-26-2000, 04:16 PM
I plan on taking up Pak Mei which is of CLC lineage and I was unaware of any other lineage besides CLC. Although I plan to still learn the CLC Pak Mei I have become curious as to what lineages you both claim.(By claim I mean no disrespect) If it is impossible or you just choose not to post your responses here, then can you provide this info via email.
Some of the things I would like to know are:
Besides the # of forms what are some other differences between the Pak Mei you study and the Pak Mei under CLC?
Your lineage, because if I'm not mistaken it was mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread that CLC is not recognized in some of the lineage "trees", and are there more branches out there other than yours and CLC?
Any info would be highly appreciated. Please remember I'm asking for this info simply on an educational level. As I stated early I do plan on taking up Pak Mei and it's of CLC lineage, so please refrain from making any comments on CLC himself. I'm just curious about the info on the different branches of Pak Mei.

You can reach me via email at:

Thanks in advance


09-29-2000, 03:38 PM
Thank you for the compliment.

09-30-2000, 07:43 AM
As a lung ying disciple, I know I must always strive to be of the highest character.

As a human, I want to fight back.

I can cleary see I need to study my art more.

I was staying out of this topic after my last "cease-and-desist" reply (which mysteriously disappeared from this forum after only one of the antagonists was able to read it) until I found some interesting links.

Until one of you "CLC was a dope addict" proclaimers contacts Man Sifu in NYC and asks him for the phone number of CLC's younger son's Bak Mei Association in HK and calls him up to clarify for us that his dad indeed was an opium addict, the sheer magnitude of your ignorance and disrespect will resound on this forum.

Otherwise, when you offer more "proof" of this asinine assertion, well, I like Jet Li's line in LW4:
"In Hong Kong, you'd already be dead."


09-30-2000, 09:08 AM
cloud 1- your welcome.

you guys make me laugh. bring on clc son, of course he wont say a **** word about his old man doing opium. i was also told that chun bing fat and chun bing lum were taught different to each other( relax people..) thats what i was told.

look im over this topic, but i will still put my own views and knowledge into this forum. even if you dont like it!!

all pak mei is cool anyway.

09-30-2000, 06:30 PM
Good point Meltdawn!
I am concerned about your post disappearing. You should demand an explanation.

fierce tiger- thanks for sharing all your knowledge... funny after 38 posts, no one has seen any evidence. Maybe that's why you're laughing. It's a joke, right?

10-01-2000, 02:08 AM
are you a woman by any chance?cause you write like one..is that what you call proof that clc didn't take opium?cause to me thats here say.
look no-ones got proof cause clc is not with us any moore.
moq nice to see you've not given up,iwas starting to miss you.you're so wise,so great but your dragon movements are a novice class.
prove to me clc didn't take opium.
prove to me clc taught the persons who claim the lineage of his.
prove to me your lung ying is the true one.

i don't know what you've been tought but i know its for show.all kung fu are not commodities
it cant be bought for a certificate

come on moq que up for another round,you can do better than that,use your fancy dragon claws.

p.s you got me running ,i'm scared.

10-01-2000, 02:41 AM
Sui Fuw,
Do you enjoy badgering MoQ?
What kicks doyou get from it? Its like having a fight with a bully, once you have him grovelling, why inflict more pain? Is it not enough for you to see that MoQ is nothing more than an exhibitionist. There is no spunk to his character.

Don't be offended MoQ. I'll stick up for you since your buds have gone.
Oh by the way how do you know F.T is not in Hong Kong?

[This message was edited by CLOUD 1 on 10-01-00 at 07:47 PM.]

10-01-2000, 07:57 PM
I have unconditional RESPECT for people like Wong Fei Hung, Cheung Lai Chin, Lum Yew Gwai et al. Anyone dissing the likes of these guys generally get a very harsh rebuttal. It happens around here at times, mostly from trolls, rabble and scum that pass through.

These people don't know about respect and so any tradition they may be loosely affiliated with is probably of low status and of little consequence.

These "others"(local Bak Mei Pai) are staying away simply because they don't care to associate with this petty thread. And, of course, in our world, only the lowest of the low present themselves in relation to open disrespect and insult to the calibre of Master Cheung Lai-Chin...

None of you recent group of fresh newbies here at the Forum have shown much of anything but your a$. This is not the best way to introduce us to your ideas or styles...

10-01-2000, 10:50 PM
Hi MoQ,

Well said and Thank you.


Contraria Sunt Complementa

10-02-2000, 12:59 AM
Hi fierce tiger, cloud 1, sui-fuw

I read your post. I do not want to argue with anyone of you (neither with MoQ, wisom mind, mantis108...) about the original pak mei and the opium issue. Because I do not know a lot of thing about pak mei family's secrets. If you do not want to give the name of your sifu i do not mind.

But you are saying that in your version of pak mei there are 18 forms. And that is about martial art! Can you give the name of the 18 forms or at least some of them.

please feed my curiosity

thanks /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

10-02-2000, 01:16 AM
hi mantis ,where have you been?now you come, when you think your buds are at the top of the subject.nice to see you get moq to do your dirty work.(top of the food chain eh mantis)
moq,you say"petty thread","lowest of the low".
that must apply to you and mantis too.
hey mantis 108 is that a small insect with
108 legs,so you can run faster,away from your fears.i.e stuck on your training?
it must be hard for you bieng so great like moq(at the top of the tree but cannot fly)the expectations must be great,watch that the strings don't break.

come on fancy dragon claws(they need sharpening by the way)insect with 108 legs(need to run faster
towards me)you can do better that "lowest of the low","petty thread" cause your in the same catorgory.

wisdom mind
10-02-2000, 01:34 AM
lets end this thread and start with a new topic!

10-02-2000, 01:46 AM
ok moq,pronounce mor quil as in bridge... fool!
off comes the the gloves and out comes the pheonix eye's. ha ha

the only reason that hong kong bak mei is still around today is because of the support of the triads there. i wander why cheung lai chun had so much drugs , because he was involved with the triads. his poor son died because he saw his father doing it,probable thought it was cool so jumped on the band wagon.

like father like son.....
moq where do you learn, i would like to come to one of your classes, and if i challange you right there in your school and bet you down like a ***** that you are, you have to come and study under me. and i will show you a real art.

sui fu,cloud 1, big bear how are you guys going!
cricri, i will not share my forms to anyone because i feel that you are part of this spastic cult like mantis 108. but i will let go of this topic if some other people do.....

see ya!

10-02-2000, 02:51 AM
I thought Mantis this thread was a waste of time to you? I'm glad you couldn't keep away.
Wisdom Mind. Were you refering to everyone on this thread, when you say short hand brothers?
If so, what do you know about short hand?
Have you asked your SiFu what he sees as a short hand form and why it is fundemental? or ask Mantis 108. I don't think MoQ knows so don't bother asking him.
Don't presume so much but experience is the key!!!
Oh MoQ, I'm glad that your so called freinds are keeping away from this thread. OOPs you got that wrong again.

Fierce Tiger
Do you expect your students to do Pak Mei like you? You said earlier that CLC's sons were taught differently. How do you know?
If your evidence is because the two brothers teach differently then I think your not such a great teacher that you think you are.
I don't know you but if you put down where you teach I will try to find you to see if I am right.
Just because we do not disclose are origin, give you the right to treat people this way.
I repeat again don't associate me with anyone else, I have not disrespected CLC.

[This message was edited by CLOUD 1 on 10-02-00 at 07:58 PM.]

wisdom mind
10-02-2000, 04:18 AM
but still we must live amoungst them

10-02-2000, 04:52 AM
I think most KF schools(most old one) have a underground or a hetsafui connections(like in the ching era)!
If Pak mei is traids KF and is favored to HK traids are you not happy that there's a style that's being use on the street, one that work!?

CLC use drugs?
Opium was sometime(!) use as a tradional medicine but of course some ppl today even say that asprine is a drugs too!

10-02-2000, 12:05 PM
pak mei has a triad connection and everyone knows that. but to say it an effective system because of traids doesnt make sense,when they have guns and knives, they fight in packs by the way. they support the schools over there and launder money.
opium was used as medicial purposes as was stated previously by me, please read...

cloud 1
i have never said i was a s**T hot teacher, but my student respect me and my knowledge. thats all that matters to me. my statement about coming around to see moq was just a matter of speech, but you guys have to except other peoples views etc.

my statements are never intentionally to disrespect anyone, just putting my 2 cents worth.

have a wonderful day... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

10-02-2000, 04:33 PM
fierce tiger,
I desire to learn "Real" Bak Mei. The problem is, how do I go about finding a teacher? From your lucid and erudite posts, I can obviously tell that you have devoted much time and thought to the study of "Real" Bak Mei. Your Sifu did a wonderful job instilling a moral and virtuous character in you! Anyway, how would someone go about learning "Real" Bak Mei? Where is your school located? Is there a web page? Also, when will I get to learn the secret lineage? Is there a secret handshake to go along with the lineage? I'm not going to have to put on one of those funny hats like the Shriners wear am I? Any help you can provide would be much appreciated.

10-02-2000, 04:55 PM
fierce tiger,
You are accusing Mantis108 of belonging to a "spastic cult"...are you kidding? You are the one who speaks of secret lineages and refuse to divulge something as benign as form names. If I were you, I would have been leery when a supposed Sifu started talking about a secret lineage, but that's just me. One word of advice though, if your teacher offers you some Kool-Aid, DON'T DRINK IT! If you want to know a real secret, I'll let you in on one: No one on this forum takes you seriously, the reason why Mantis108 and some of the rest stay away is because they are keenly aware of the fact that you have nothing of value to offer. I myself am just hanging around waiting for the punchline...you are a forum joke. You got an initial kneejerk reaction (deservedly so) when you came on yelling about drug abuse, but once it was clear that you had nothing else to say, most simply ignored your inane ramblings.

10-02-2000, 11:46 PM
billy- spot the concern!
is mantis69 your sifu, hahaha
do you think i give a toss, what you and pals think. what do you know about pak mei. you guys keep responding to this topic causing yourself stress, dont beat yourselves up to much. fierce tiger still loves you!

there is no secret hand shake, i will take on more students next year, we are quit full at the moment, but thankyou for your intrest. there is no secrets lineage.(one thats not made up recently)

guys get over it,clc did take drugs lets finish this **** topic.


10-03-2000, 01:50 AM
f.t i thought you wern't fierce.
well,you seem to be kicking some tush(5).

i'm doing find,talk about some members been brain-washed by insect 108 legs.thats where he's been.
wis i love to end this topic,however,they seem to be hanging on for something.what?why don't they boycot it?is it cause they want whipping by f.t,cause i have no doubt he can.

fish-face theres no way you can learn,cause you have to pass tests,and you failed already(honesty)

little billy bold patch
are you married to insect 108 legs,watch out fancy dragon claws might get realy upset.

10-03-2000, 06:30 AM
sui fuw-
man im laughing so hard, at your payouts.
fish fingers- my cat has more ging in her **** than you have.
mantis 69- are you 8 step or chu gar/or chu me.

thankyou your sifu

10-03-2000, 10:09 AM
Fierce tiger,

I am very sorry that you think that I belong to a stastic cult. But the fact is i do not. It is like when people think that you have several names in that forum.

Maybe you think there is a cult because I try to be polite. Actually I do not want to hurt anyone.

Anyway, you do not want to share your form. But i do not ask that but just the name. I do not think that giving the name is sharing a form. For me a part of martial school history can be given by the name of the forms. But If you do not think so that's fine.

I just wanted to give you an opportunity to give a favour of your pak mei. So HK people might be intrigued by new form names and might begin to think about their own pak mei. And if one day I see your school I would be able to recognize the original pak mei.

Anyway, thank you for considering my last post.


10-03-2000, 02:51 PM
cricri- sorry if i offended you!

you seemed to me to nice, thats why i thought you were one of them. soon as you mention something on this thread they dont like it, even if its the truth or not.
they should read and learn, if they dont like what i have to say they simply do not have to right a thing!

i have nothing to do with hk pak mei, and never will. cricri soory to put you through this long drawn out topic. they should just except or not its very simple....

10-03-2000, 03:37 PM
Calling all PAK MEI practioners if you havent' heard the one about our infamous Grandmaster chasing the Dragons Tail then you have been kept in the dark or had your head in the sand. I have and am currently studying PAK MEI from two different sources and heard this from both. Where did your sifu study ( MONGOLIA) ? I have followed your little rub and tug session here for a while and I must say it is quite amusing. If you spent as much time training as you claim then you might be taken a little more seriously . feirce tiger sounds as though he is enjoying the antics of cheung lai chung want to be,s as well, you butch sound as though you riding on the name of pak mei , it must gring your arse when someone actually knows what they are talking about, huh! Anyway it was nice to meet you all, if MOQ ,BILLY BOLD PATCH (HAHA) FISH FILETS, STICK INSECT can handle the pressure of having someone disagree then we could have interesting discussion page , yeh! Next time girls.

10-03-2000, 07:37 PM
First of all, let me say this. I do not believe for a second that Cheung Lai Chun was an opium addict. I believe MoQ's source on this matter. However, even if it is true, I hardly think that a public forum is the place to discuss this, especially when we are talking about someone who is, sadly, no longer with us. It is reprehensible. This goes beyond Martial etiquette and decorum, we are talking common sense here folks. I am not a Bak Mei practicioner, however, I know some people who are, and they are very impressive individuals. I have nothing but respect for Cheung Lai Chun and the system his descendants practice. The CLC Bak Mei people are always willing to answer questions and have no problem sharing what they know of their art on a public forum. You see, THEY have nothing to hide. THEY are not ashamed of their lineage and will gladly share it when asked. fierce tiger TALKS about a "Real" Bak Mei lineage which does not include CLC, but when asked about it, will not divulge even a single name. fierce tiger TALKS about 18+ hand forms, but when asked, will not divulge anything. Do you see a pattern emerging here? I do. So, you see "BIU JI" it is not a matter of CLC's descendants "handling the pressure" of someone disagreeing with them that prevents this forum from becoming an interesting place for discussion, it is the fact that fierce tiger and his lackeys do not WANT TO DISCUSS ANYTHING! All they want to do is attempt to besmirch the reputation and memory of Cheung Lai Chun. They have nothing of interest or value to offer, it is nothing but conjecture. They have turned this forum into a London Tabloid.
Seems to me if fierce tiger and his boys had stumbled across "Real" Bak Mei, they should be a happy, content lot, but they sound like the most disharmonious and bitter people I've ever run across on this forum. fierce tiger, you do not stand any higher by trying to make others low...just a thought. Anyway, I will now leave you to your own devices, if you had anything of note to say, you would have said it already. This is my last post on this topic. So it goes.

10-03-2000, 11:59 PM
What I actually see is a very little to do with discussing real kung fu but who actually knows the most, you "pakmei" guys rarely mention anything about generating power or how anything works at all but just names of forms , great teachers and anything but what is at the core of the system , so how can any serious student be convinced that you actually know what you are talking about. Anybody can regergitate names and dates etc, but do you actually spend as much time developing you system to truly understand it , maybe you have just read a couple of books.;

10-04-2000, 12:58 AM
bil ji- you said you are studying clc pak mei.
did your sifu tell you this story.

its about time someone from clc pm come out and agreed. you guys do have to be ashamed anymore. i still respect clc and his followers, but there is pak mei out there that is not clc. even in china where i studied dont know of clc.....

bil ji thanks for your knowledge. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

10-04-2000, 01:10 AM
...with people who cannot even pretend to have any degree of general respect or social skills...

10-04-2000, 01:11 AM
for all you guys that don't study bak mei, you obviously should stay out of it. Your bak mei friends must be weak if they need your help, so that must mean my real bak mei is more powerful with the original 18 hand forms, 18 weapon forms including the meditations & training drills.

the s**t your spinning is dribbling out of your mouth, please use a napkin so you don't get it on your keyboard. you mention a$ alot, what are you trying to say, are you g*y, i mean i don't mind, but just a question? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

don't melt away pal, we need a joke once in awhile
i deleted your post by accident,if you cannot remember what you wrote, my reply will give you an indication of your stupidity.
so don't demand an explanation like your idiotic Moq said. this is not a courtroom.

Kilgore trout,
watch out for the fishing lines or you'll be fish fingers.
watch out because bears love fish especially trout.

10-04-2000, 01:20 AM
you see boys you have to ask the right questions,to recieve a satisfide answer,and big bill your not doing so.tell me why should i share with you great masters when you know it all?for the good of cma?don't be so stupid.you lot just want power of invincebilty.
anyway,lets talk and get past clc.
clc is a very good k-f practitioner,do you think he needs little boys like you lot to defend his honour?of course not.
you lot say you respect him.you've never met him.
are you lot so sure your pm is from him?
as far as know,no-way,cause he only taught a selected few and they didn't finish all the forms,apart from no1 son,you lot only got the finger-tip,you make out you got the hand.

this is it boys,read it and weep.

here it comes.
if you want to learn pm go to a hak-ka village
in the N.T,there not hard to find,and ask them in your tone of voice,"i want to learn pak-mei",they will shut the door in your face,or con the hell out of you(but your been conned now)so you got nothing to loose?if your not blood line ,no-way,unless your a" present from heaven."

so why should i share"the hons were persecuted for many years,from the manchu's to the japs"
hak-ka people will not diclose any secrets,yes mantis108 secrets to anyone least of all cantonese suck manchus.
by the way mantis108 your si-fu may have been hak-ka,true pak-mei can only be tought by having a
hak-ka accent(read your post)we made sure of that also.clc was indeed hak-ka nyin.

10-04-2000, 01:23 AM
big bear where have you been!
i thought you gave up on this wonderful topic.
as you know now its became a slaging match. i really dont want it this way, i think this is a good thread and we all need to chill out and we can all learn from each other.

i would like to know about bil ji - where do you train....


10-04-2000, 01:27 AM
siu fuw- well put.


10-04-2000, 01:36 AM
Hi Ya everyone,
Is this forum set up so that people can learn how to advance in their study of M.A? Or is it for people to show how big their *****'s are? Before there is any real disscusions that takes place we must all get the B.S out of the way.
The original question was is there any difference between Hakka Pak Mei and Cantonese Pak Mei? Not one of you guys gave a definitive answer. Is it that there are no differences or is it that Hakka pak Mei so seceretive that no one will let the cat out of the bag.
I really don't think that disscussions on power generation can be explained over the net because this would defeat the whole object of doing Kung Fu!!!
Things like ging and tun tou fao chum are too difficult to put into words. Conceptualization can NEVER substitute the FEELINGS or EXPERIENCES of these.

10-04-2000, 01:46 AM
If it wasn't within your capability to research the posts I've made in this forum before making your assumption, yes I'm a woman. Thank you for taking note of my excellent grasp and execution (pun intended) of the English language. I hope one day to become as proficient in Mandarin, Cantonese, Russian and Spanish. As a published author, I am constantly striving to improve myself. One must be mighty with the pen and the sword. Oh, or were you being facetious? Look it up.

bigbear: you did me a favor by keeping me out of this misery for a bit. Being so erudite, maybe you can remind me what I wrote?

fierce tiger, you still offer proof of neither your accusation of CLC's drug use nor your own validity as a Chinese martial artist.

In 1858, Britain imposed legal trade in opium on China. By 1900, it is estimated that near 90 million Chinese were addicted. Sure, anyone could have been one of those 90 million. Sure, an opium addict can be a functioning member of society. Therein lies the proof you should have lucidly claimed to credit your information, not some hazy, back yard Cantonese "sifu".

Bak Mei:
But your recrimination's content is not the instigator of discord in this thread. What is appalling was your callous, disrespectful, unnecessary statement in the first place. You disgrace your sifu, your art and your family. To go as far as challenging another member of this board proves you to be an uncultivated malcontent. Your appearance in this forum would have been welcome and commended if you had chosen the honorable method of describing your "original but not original" bak mei and favored us with the knoweldge of yet another lineage. We are not close-minded nor ignorant individuals; we all know one master can teach several students very different things. A few of us actually gather this kind of information, with the hopes of passing it on to future worthy practitioners. I know Mantis108's lineage, as well as wisdomind's and MoQ's. They know mine. I am glad Kevin hasn't gotten involved in this thread. Spared at least one of us.

Mantis108 asked: "I'm curious as to the "original" Bak Mei system. Things like: Lineage, Theories, Training Metodolgy, Forms (5 form which 5? more than 5 forms?) what makes yours more "original" than ours? what proves do you have to the authenticities? Sigung's teaching was well documented through out time. What about your original system? Anything that we can read?"
Well? How about it? Care to be a contributor towards something constructive?

Robert also wrote: "It is also important to remember that Bak Mei system sometime is not taught with a set curriculum. The HK Bak Mei association seemed to have put out a regular curriculum to remedy that." Now if you want to dispute this organization's claim to bak mei cirriculum based upon it's relation to the CLC family, please remember that when China was united at the beginning of this century, the government began an active program of revitalizing the martial arts. The Kuo Su Institute consolidated northern schools, and it is my understanding that the Dragon Sign Athletic Association sanctions southern schools. The DSAA recognises CLC's HKBM. If I am incorrect, I hope someone will set me straight. My Cantonese sucks and my information is compiled (though diligently) from varied sources.

To all the new folks:
Back in May I remember reading through a few threads on Hakka linages and the Two Tigers of the East River. One thing we all agreed on is the somewhat secreted nature of these particular arts. Some wonderful people, including Robert, MoQ, Kevin, Wilson and wisdom mind contributed colorful stories, anecdotes and even couplets in an attempt to share their passion. I hope you will search the archives for such like information instead of continuing to contribute to this ineffectual drivel.

I promise never again to rubber-neck at this gruesome car wreck of a convoluted issue.

MoQ, pleeeeeeease let these people drown in their own ignorance, you cannot help the unwilling.


10-04-2000, 02:13 AM
MeltDawn, If your Kung Fu was as good as your use of the English language then we sould all be bowing to you.
Only a women could waffle on so much.

I know what it could be, haven't you got enough money to do the sex change opperation. Why don't you ask the H.K Pak Mei association to make a donation.

10-04-2000, 02:16 AM
melt dawn
very nice post 8/10 not bad. how can you say that the whole clc pmei system is completely pure. everyone knows that he added dragon style to create his own system, what are you a fool. you put all this info on opium. 90 mill people thats what they estamated (thats all). why dont you think clc would have taken opium., and why dont you think clc didnt. you cant be so sure. i have not disrespected him or pak mei. in fact i have given you correct information that he did opium. if i give out the other teacher of pak mei from clc lineage, they will simply send around the triad to kill him.

because we practise martial arts you use the word respect. why dont you respect the people that want to talk the truth about kung fu and other people that share their knowledge.

10-04-2000, 02:29 AM
exelant(sory can't spell)
a woman know it all.where do get this so called wonderful info from md?from books?well i'll kneel down to you.
where you there?of course not,cause if you where you would have been told to keep quiet,as a woman.(no logic)women?can make fantastic students but terrible si-fu's,not unless pure.tell me are you a virgin?since you are neither stick to sewing.
you waffle so much just as i expected.
ask why did i know your a woman?
hey you lot sending a woman to do a mans job,exellent kung-fu guys,i have total respect now.
p.s didn't you know i'm illiterate?and no,idon't know what facetious means,was it an insult?i'm crying and wetting my pants.
are you having fun yet?can women have fun?

10-04-2000, 02:42 AM
Hey Sui Fuw
I wanna say you are right about the Hak ka!
Why the hell should we teach you all the secret!
Look at the southern mantis! it's a hakka art and is the most secretive one!
and CLC must have take alot secret to his grave!

10-04-2000, 02:44 AM
Hey Sui Fuw
I wanna say you are right about the Hak ka!
Why the hell should we teach cantonese all the secret!
Look at the southern mantis! it's a hakka art and is the most secretive one!
and CLC must have take alot secret to his grave!

10-04-2000, 03:02 AM
moq and md
should get together,cause moq needs to release some s.frustrations,and md needs to keep her legs shut.
battle if the century?

my mother is a respectable woman,you maybe one,one day,just keep your legs shut?and yes you could be a great teacher if you keep your virtue.
yes thats all your virtue.

don't tell me moq,i'm a troll.

10-04-2000, 03:05 AM
o.k over,iheard the first time,no need to shout.

peace bro

10-04-2000, 03:17 AM
You guys, this thread has not become anything. I don't believe there has been any communication yet, just alot of games.

Let me ask a few questions of "the group".

If these various arts are all considered "Hakka", where does Fukien Bak Hok fit in?

Isn't Bak Mei considered a Taoist O'mei mts. kung fu system?

What is the difference in "posture" between Lung Ying, Bak Mei, YKM, Jook Lum etc.?

10-04-2000, 06:39 AM
Cloud: Thanks for the compliment. I work twice as hard at my kung fu. I love it. Don’t we all? “I know what it could be, haven't you got enough money to do the sex change opperation.” Is there something you don’t like about a vagina?

Fierce: “how can you say that the whole clc pmei system is completely pure?” I never made such a statement. In fact I alluded otherwise. “why dont you think clc would have taken opium., and why dont you think clc didnt. you cant be so sure.” I have no proof if he did or didn’t. All I have are the words other people I respect and honor have told me, and prior to these allegations I’ve never heard anything like this. I choose not to believe you. “if i give out the other teacher of pak mei from clc lineage, they will simply send around the triad to kill him.” That’s a wonderful touch! You must have so much power that your mere words set gangsters in action. ” why dont you respect the people that want to talk the truth about kung fu and other people that share their knowledge.” I will respect when it is earned. I appreciate your reply, but I still await a little information on your own martial arts background to ascertain your worthiness.

Sui-fuw: I am laughing so hard!!! That first was a GREAT post, I mean it! I can hear Yoda in the background saying “control your feelings you must!”
“moq and md should get together” Well, thanks, he’s a great catch, but I’m promised to Mantis108. As for your innuendos about my sexuality, would you be attacking my ***** size if I were male? As for "virtue", I love the monks' kung fu, but not their lifestyle.


10-04-2000, 07:29 AM
melt dawn
im not trying to blow my own trumpet, but my information has come from my sifu that recently passed on and after my first post, the response that i got i knew how people would react. so i asked avery close friend of mine that is a pak mei clc decendent to make sure i wasnt wrong.

he confirmed it and told me that even lam yiu gwa and others all took it before a fight to block out pain, incase they get injuired they can still fight....

like i told everyone on this forum, iwill share my knowledge like it or not. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

10-04-2000, 09:20 AM
fierce tiger,

you wrote :"like i told everyone on this forum, iwill share my knowledge like it or not. "

So I'd definitively like to know the names of your forms, and just the names.

If for any reason you do not want to wrote it in this forum can you send me theses informations by email at chris_rou@hotmail.com ?

thanks /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

10-04-2000, 12:07 PM
Fierce tiger, the source of my pakmei come from one which is a clc descendant the other which is not. Goes to show there is more to the system than what clc gave out. The message has been missed with all the mud slinging but some fantasies were getting away with some people. I gave no disrespect to clc , only repeating what I also heard as a matter of course. To be honest I couldn't care less if he did the system still works yeh! I think the topic affronted some inflated egos that's all.
Big Bear you have a familiar tone , where do you train? I'm in Sydney .

10-04-2000, 12:45 PM
hi biu ji
i don't suppose you're doing your bak mei with andy?

10-04-2000, 04:08 PM
''Hell hath no fury like a women scorned''
I bet you wear the trousers in your household.
Is that why Mantis lives so far away from you?

Bui ji,
Have you studied Wing Chun? You said the two teachers that you are studying under are not the same Pak Mei origin, are their systems totally different?
Fierce Tiger, what have you got against CLC's Pak Mei?
If you are a teacher have you finished being a student because there is nothing more you can learn from your system? It is sometimes hard to let go of a SiFu.