differences between 7*mantis and the other mantis styles

[7*mantiskid]

what's the main difference between 7*mantis and the other mantis styles? is 7* the original style created by wong long or was it by one of his students? i'm just wondering. i find 7* to be an awesome fighting style and want to know if the other ones are just as good with the same techniques

[KickingMantis]

Not that I have seen many of the different variations of mantis...but in comparison to those that I have seen... I think Seven Star appears to be more direct and straight to the point. In my obervations, the circular movements tend to be smaller movements, not as flamboyant as some of the other sytems. tend to be more control oriented, controlling the opponent from the moment of encounter to the takedown, break or throw. I think there is less wasted movement.

From my little research and from the information I have obtained from different mantis practitioners... I dont think the original form of mantis that Wong Long discovered and further developed with the other monks was called Seven Star, Mei H, 8 Step or anything else. Probably just Tong Long. I dont know I wasn't there and not many people, if any really know.

We do know that the first known practictioner of Seven Star was Li San Jian or "Fast Hand Li" he taught Wang Yun Sheng sometime between 18454-1926, because this is the lifetime of Wang.

It makes perfectly sense that people learned the mantis that was taught at the temple where Wong Long discovered and developed it and moved on to maybe mix it with there own styles or other styles they had learned in order to perfect their own techniques as they came across different opponents or other styles.

[Frogman]

I have heard of two stories about how Seven Star PM got it’s name. Actually I read it on a 7*PM site I just can’t remember where, perhaps someone else knows of the site I’m referencing. I will first state I do not train in 7* but did read this story and found it interesting. They said that there are many versions of how PM was broke into 12 styles. The version I like but do not know how true it is was the tail that Master Wong once they had learned the PM basics sent his 12 disciples out to find and study their own Praying Mantis bug and use what they learned to create their own style. One story about 7* is that the disciple found a PM w/ 7 spots on it’s back. The other story says that the concept came from the seven star constellation that we know as the little dipper. The big eye opener for me was making the relationship between the 7* stance that I have learned and the concept of what it was. …hard to explain, most of the stances can be related to there English name (i.e. horse stance is like riding a horse) but other then being an upside down 7 I could not understand where the reference came from since in Chinese the character for 7 is totally different. The seven stars that make up the little dipper do look like an upside down 7.
Wow… sorry
Back on track. I have heard that Plumflower was the closest thing to the original but once again I’m not sure. I would like to hear more about how we came to have 12 styles of Praying Mantis. Also do all PM styles follow the 12 word poem???
Would this mean Yes to the folowing question:
Quote
"i find 7* to be an awesome fighting style and want to know if the other ones are just as good with the same techniques"


RibHit
fm

[mantis_seeker]

Hi Frogman,


Also do all PM styles follow the 12 word poem???

All mantis have some form of keywords as most of all CMA do. But there are different sets of keywords among the various styles of mantis. 7* keyword is different than plum blossom is different than taiji mantis yada yada ... and some styles have more than 12.

Even within 7* there are differences between mainland 7* keyword formula and HK 7*. And on top of that there are differences between different lineages in HK.

mantis_seeker

[carly]

and is probably the best-known mantis style.
I too believe that Plum Blossom mantis is the closest thing to the original.

[Joe Mantis]

Check back through past threads. I know there has been some great discussion on this topic as well as stories on how the different names of Mantis styles cam to be.
Tainan Mantis and Mantis 108 and others have posted some stuff.
It may be a bit scattered throughout though.

Carly
In rereading some of Tainan's and Mantis 108 posts, I agree that Plum Flower Mantis may closest to the original.

[KickingMantis]

IM CURIOUS WHY YOU ALL BELIEVE THIS IF NO ONE CURRENTLY KNOWS WHAT THE ORIGINAL IS OR LOOKS LIKE.

WHAT MAKES PLUM FLOWER MORE LIKE THE ORIGINAL AS OPPOSED TO 7*, SHINING BOARD, FLATE PLATE, 8 STEP OR ETC.,

[Joe Mantis]

KICKINGMANTIS

I believe that Tainan Mantis' is researching the that and has used the forms of each style as a point of reference. He can give tons more insight than I can. I do think that by comparing the forms and attempting to find out which forms came from where one can begin to sort through the confusion.

All:

Again, past threads have bits and pieces about the history.

[BeiTangLang]

Again, past threads have bits and pieces about the history. [/B][/QUOTE]
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.

Does this sound cool?
***********

Gee,..I don't know if it sounds cool or not, but ....
What would have happened if no one fought for the rights you currently enjoy?

[mantis_seeker]

Hi,


I do think that by comparing the forms and attempting to find out which forms came from where one can begin to sort through the confusion.

I don't think that will help. A lot of crossing happened between 7* and plum blossom. It was not uncommon for masters of both styles to be friends and in the best of traditions things got traded back and forth.

If you look at the lineages the only point where the two lineages intersect is with Wong Long. So it could be possible the two developed independently for a little while.

As for Wong Long's mantis nobody does know what it looks like. Plum blossom mantis does not claim to be closest to Wong Long's mantis and many sifus agree that form of mantis has probably been lost.

7* star and plum blossom are more similiar than different. As long as it is good mantis who cares.

mantis_seeker

[Tainan Mantis]

In Liang Hsuehsiang's old manuscripts of Taiji (later meihua) Mantis from the 1800's he lists;
beng bu
luan jie
8 elbows... as forms from Wang Lang.

There is no comparitive manuscript that has been mentioned for 7*.

Li Sanjian, where most people start the 7* lineage, may have had forms like duo gang and ro ling.

Maybe Wang Rongsheng added White Ape Steals the Peach( Mantis Steals... for HK 7*)
So that is a good indication of what old 7* PM was like.

Supposedly Li Sanjian didn't teach 8 Elbows, but did teach beng Bu and luan jie.
Where did he learn them from?
That is not clear and remains a mystery.
From Hseng HSiao?
Manuscripts from Hseng Hsiao contain forms that no one knows these days. If they do know them, they are not saying.
His manuscripts don't contain any forms that modern PM schools teach.

Then there is 6 Harmony, which Ilya Profatilov has done the most research on.
It is also PM, but their forms are different again.

So it signifies that the 3 styles of Taiji-Mei Hua, 7* and 6 Harmony may have a common root, but have all changed enough so that there is a large body of forms that are uncommon.

Later styles can be traced to these roots.

[MightyB]

As long as it is good mantis who cares.

True enough, but this topic still is interesting.

Guys, keep up with posting any historical findings or snippets as you come across them. The sad fact is that the truth will probably never be known. Doesn't mean that you can't have fun with the search though.

[MightyB]

Li Sanjian, where most people start the 7* lineage, may have had forms like duo gang and ro ling.

I'm not so sure of this. My Sifu lists Din Da (spelling phonetically-- I think it means short fist-- this style like many of the base styles of PM is extinct now) as one of the 17 base styles of mantis-- that's probably where duo gang came from.

I do agree that there is little pure mantis. Very few forms are listed as just mantis forms, and HK 7* now has a lot of Chin Wu forms as well.

Anyway, what are some of the lost forms you keep alluding to? You can't just tease us like that.

[Ming Fai]

7* star and plum blossom are more similiar than different

Actually, from what I've heard, aren't they really one and the same style? Seven Star Praying Mantis supplemented with the forms Meihua Lu, Meihua Shou and Meihua Quan = Meihua Tanglang. While Meihua Tanglang without the three forms was called Seven Star Mantis...? So originally in Shandong, people didn't really make a difference between Seven Star and Meihua, they were considered to be one style.

But my knowledge on Mantis is really limited, so correct me if I'm wrong...

[Joe Mantis]

BeiTangLang,

To answer you question, I probably wouldn't be enjoying these rights right now. Lots of thanks to those who serve and have served.
However, I wasn't referring to fighting for Rights rather fighting for peace.

All:

Is mei hua lu a popular form in PLum Flowern PM?

[mantis108]

Great thread and all round great input.

First off, I found the assumption that masters don't befriend each other and exchange material quite unsettling. I think if we look closely we can see that a lot of masters learn form each other especially when they have equally quality material bring to the table. A lot of people went from other styles to learn Mantis. This doesn't mean that they will have to be brainwashed and forget about what they already achieved.

Second, the following is my very own opinion. The information are collected through various sources. I am grateful to those who have opened my eyes, namely Ilya Profatilov, Kevin Bazier (Tainan Mantis) and many others. This doesn't represent any other's view except my very own. Any mistake is solely mind. Please feel free to correct me.

I think a lot of the differences materialized because of the different methodolgies which are based in the teaching philosophies of the various masters. For example, the older version of TJPM based more on a body of techniques which are collectively known as Mishou (some seems to suggest that this is rather a form). This explain why it used to be very few students that the Grandmasters would accept and transmit the system to mainly an individual as oppose to many students. From there came Luanjie and Bazhou (during GM Liang XueXiang's time when he decided to accept a large number of students). Then came Xiao Beng Bu which was created to hide the Luanjie. Later another version of Beng Bu, which is the most recognizable PM form of all time, was created. Since it is taught in Yantai county, the old capital of Shandong, it is also called the Yantai Beng Bu. It's original name Da Beng Bu is now rarely in use. Finally a prototypical version of Dzai Yao was created. It is then further developed into 7 sections. At the core, the training philosophy is deeply rooted in Mishou where individual techniques are practiced mano a mano in most hardcore closed quater combat manner. This I have a taste of from my training in CCK TCPM which is a branch of TJPM. In a way, forms were created to keep other students entertained while the masters work closely with a selected number of students (1 or 2) in the Mishou type of training. If we look at the 12 Characters of Taiji (Meihwa), we see that they are somewhat of an encoded series of drills of conceptual nature, which are expressed through various combinations of techniques (ie Feng Shou has go-lu-tsai in it).

Meanwhile no one exactly know what Li Sanjian taught but then by Wang Rongshang time Longfist forms would have been inseperable to the 7* system. From there Chaai Chui, HeHuJiaoJia and others were added. The main reason that there are so many forms and the high regard of form in 7* is IMHO mainly because of its Longfist background. Later on Ling forms became another important feature of 7*. If we examin the QingTsao 7*'s version of 12 characters we see the Longfist mindset is deeply encrouched (ie Beng, Pi, Tiao and Chong). It is also heavily technique based rather than concept based although some people argue that it is also concept based. But this somewhat hard style philosophy experienced yet another face lift by LGY's or WHF's time. Beng Da Diao Jun (swift and fluid - characteristic of Eagle Claw) replaced Beng Pi Tiao Chong (rapid and bold - that of longfist). This is largely IMHO a change due to coming in contact with Eagle Claw in Ching Wu, which was pioneering in creating a universial national art of China. The adaptation of these four words would make the gap between Eagle Claw and Mantis even smaller for Ching Wu students to learn things quickly, and switch from style to style without seemingly having 2 vastly different looking style. This would explain why HK 7* and mainland seems a bit different and instructors of Mantis origin of Ching Wu such as TJPM Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai adopted the latter deviced 12 characters. Drills in 7* are quite similar to Taiji's excepted often 7* drills are often broken down into smaller pieces and limit the student to one side of the drill as oppose to TJPM's switching role constantly.

Kung Fu as martial education has to be pragmatic. It has to evolve according to the time and the need of the people. In the case of PM it has been so. Having said that we must remember those who make the evolution possible are well learned (martial wise) masters. They don't create or change things out of a whimp and pass it off as legitimate material. Until the time we all fully understood the profund wisdom that is in the system. I don't suggest anyone to make the system fits you. Rather you should first learn how to fit with the system. I agreed that way back when Tanglang is Tanglang and no specific tags were assigned. It would be great if we can do that again but currently it would take a major miracle to bring all sides to the table. Anyway, lineage dispute and secrets are major obstacles in promoting an awesome art such as Tanglangquan.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Mantis108

[mantis_seeker]

Ming Fai,


Actually, from what I've heard, aren't they really one and the same style? Seven Star Praying Mantis supplemented with the forms Meihua Lu, Meihua Shou and Meihua Quan = Meihua Tanglang.

Short answer is no they are not one and the same.

mantis_seeker

[Tainan Mantis]

Mighty B,
The forms listed in my version of the Hseng Hsiao manuscript.

-Short Strikes 9981 Changes
That means it has 9 keywords and 9 methods for 81 changes

-Mantis does 6 roads

-Mantis fist Fanche does 4 roads

-9 turns and 18 falls in 20 roads

-Bone Breaks in 8 roads

-20 methods for groin kicks(not a form)

The manuscript describes PM as being a type of short strikes, not short strikes the popular form which has no relation to PM.

Ming Fai,
You are right that some PM teachers only called their PM as Mantis with out saying what type

Mantis108,
Why do you think bengbu came to hide Luanjie?

[Tainan Mantis]

I miss quoted Liang Hsuehsiang's manuscript about what forms it mentions.
The following quote is from Ilya Profatilov.

"...Liang Xuexiang's original manuscript(1852), Wang Lang created such forms as:
1. Bazhou
2. Luanjie
3. Mishou(later calledZhaiyao)

Note: and there is no Bengbu!!!

Which means that these are the forms that Li Bingxiao learned from Nameless Outlaw. It means that Nameless Outlaw referred to Bazhou, Luanjie and Mishou(later called Zhaiyao) as being Wang Lang's creation.
It also means that these forms go as far back as pre Nameless Outlaw's period(1600's).

Bengbu is not mentioned.

Bengbu appears at the end of another manuscript by Liang Xuexiang, but it is not mentioned as Wang Lang's form.

Who created Bengbu?

Possibly any of the following masters:
-Nameless Outlaw
-Li Bingxiao
-Zhao Zhu
-and even Liang Xuexiang himself.

It is a mystery yet to be solved..
But at least we know for sure that the oldest forms are Bazhou, Luanjie and Mishou(later called Zhaiyao)."

[MightyB]

How do the three essentials fit in?

[carly]

will we see a school return to teaching WL's three forms as the first three forms in the system?

[MightyB]

No,

They are too advanced.

Praying Mantis wasn't intended to be an entry-level martial art. That's why Lo Kwang Yu invented Sub Sa Lo for the Chin Wu. PM didn't have any basic forms to teach beginners.

[carly]

already have a LOT of forms before they got to study mantis?
The last thing they needed was one more.

[MightyB]

Sub Sa Lo exists, so that should answer your question.

[carly]

What do sifus do to avoid teaching applicatiosn and sparring?
They teach another form!
:)

[KickingMantis]

TAINAN MANTIS....

What makes you think that Wang Rong Sheng added "Whipe Ape Steals the Peach" or "Mantis Steals the Peach? You referred to "Mantis Steals the Peach for HK 7* as if HK 7* does not contain the set "Whipe Ape steals the Peach" in their cirriculum???

MIGHTY B...

"I do agree that there is little pure praying mantis.."

Well i think we all would agree, mantis has evolved as it should if it is going to be effective on the streets, hand to hand. Things thta stay the same in any arena without change or evolving eventually become extinct.

So i dont know if pure with reference to mantis in this way is a good thing or bad thing in the way it was referenced.

Hong Kong Mantis practictioners were taught and still teach CH forms, but they are told that they are CH forms and are not told that they are mantis so it in no way WATERS down HK 7* mantis or make it less pure. They are used as a foundation to build basics and give the student a foundation.

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by carly
already have a LOT of forms before they got to study mantis?
The last thing they needed was one more.

Mantis was a system to learn after you have years of other CMA's under your belt.....an add-on to what already existed.
That is the way many arts emerge, which is why we have a listing of where the techniques of mantis came from.....Someone had to know how to use them before they could combine them into a system, ...Yes?
Anyway,..back to history!
(This has been a great dicussion BTW!)
Best Wishes,
~BTL

[carly]

that sifu Profatilov has made.

[MightyB]

Kicking Mantis,

What are CH forms?

--

What I meant by pure mantis is that there aren't a lot of forms (beginner through intermediate) that Sifu would say are just mantis. It's all mantis in the advanced though. I think this is more of a Chin Wu thing and doesn't mean that HK 7* is less mantis or anything. Heck, I don't know much about other styles of mantis, I just enjoy what I study.

[MightyB]

And,

Not only does HK 7* have "White ape steals the Peach", it also has "White ape exits the Cave". Two fun and fine forms in my opinion.

[KickingMantis]

sorry it was suppose to be CW Chin-Woo

[Tainan Mantis]

Kicking Mantis,

About White Ape Steals the Peach...
A thread called 7 STAR: EXITS CAVE... which had its final post 9/13/02 goes into more detail on this question.

I made some discoveries which I posted on 7/13/02 on that thread.
Although I think I may have been misunderstood, so read that and see if it answers your questions.

A question for you.
What are the Ching Wu forms in the HK 7*?

Mighty B

3 Essentials is a translation of Zhai Yao.
There are 7 in total, but in HK only 3. Some schools combine the 6th and 7th into one form.

At one time Meihua Lu was listed as the 7th essential.

PM can be taught to beginners.
My shr ye, Ran Hsingfu, who I was lucky enough to meet and talk to before he met his heavenly reward, taught the horse stance to beginners.

Hard to imagine these days. Sign up for class and the teacher tells you to squat for an hour while he watches TV(or whatever).

Carly,

Ilya Profatilov teaches according to the tradition that was passed to him from Song Zide's grandson.
According to his research it is as traditional as it gets.
I visited him last year and he taught me 8 Elbows first.

For a more complete version of his quote visit Mantis108's website/forum.

BTW, What kind of MA do you study?

[MightyB]

Could you put up the URL or a link to Mantis 108's website?

Thanks,


B

[carly]

Mantis 108's site:
This is a great website:
+
http://forums.delphiforums.com/Taijimantis/messages

[carly]

I've studied mantis.
Sifu Profatilov seems like an unusual and extremely knowledgeable sifu - you're very privileged to have studied with him.
He taught 8 elbows first? I like that!

[KickingMantis]

Tainan Mantis,

I did go back to the thread that was started and initiated by ursa major in july 2002.

I guess he asked some very interesting questions about the white ape, praying mantis and black tiger exits the cave and steals the peach forms.

I have never heard of the black tiger steals the peach or exits the cave. I know they don't exist in the HK 7* lineage that I am currently studying.

I think that you and Mantis101 contributed a great deal to that thread, some very interesting information was shared . I think it was one of the best threads I have read on here.

Although, still didnt answer my question completly. You said that
Wang Rong Sheng probably created/added White Ape/Gibbon Steals the Peach, I now know why you may/can assume that

You said that "The famous 7* master of PRC, Li Zhanyuan, has a form called White Ape Steals Peach. Huang Hanhsun, famous master of HK 7* has a form called Praying Mantis Steals Peach. Undoubtedly passed on to him by Luo Guangyu. These forms are the same. As far as the name is conerned."

Yes i did misunderstand you.

However,

HK 7* Mantis does have White Gibbon Exits the Cave and white Gibbon Steals the Peach as well as Praying Mantis Steals the Peach and Exist the Cave.

logically, I too must assume that some of these were more recent innovations, I have no manuscripts dating back to the 1800's but its obvious.

However, those masters that later added, or created these sets to their cirriculum, did so for a reason, and in doing so has made the systems evolve and change and by doing so is the reason why many of us are thinking about those inovations today.

If you play these sets, you can tell there is a whole different feel, flow and method in each of these sets. especially between the white ape sets and the praying mantis sets as they apply to exiting and stealing. Therefore, we must say to ourselves, what were the creators motives and intentions with adding or inventing these sets.

I have been told/instructed that one really doesn't get a feel of the core of 7* until after they have learned Praying Mantis Steals the Peach.

Tainan,

On this Thread, on 7/30/2002, you said

"HK 7*

BYTT was renamed Praying Mantis Steals the Peach, All those other forms mentioned by ursa major are most likely made up by Luo Gang Yu or adaptions of forms he learned elsewhere. they are not found in old lists PRC 7* PM forms. "

So how can we account for some lineages of HK 7* mantis schools having both White Ape Steals the Peach and Praying Mantis Steals the Peach, if White Gibbon/Ape was renamed Praying Mantis Steals the Peach?

but i do agree that they somewhere they are adaptions, additions or creations at some point down the lineages.

You asked "What are the Ching Wu forms in the HK 7*?"

These sets were sets that were taught at Chin Wu, I wouldn't necesarily say they are Chin Wu forms. I am sure they were sets of other systems thatwere brought in to the Chin Wu cirriculum.As the story was told to me, these sets were chosen to specifically give students the fundamentals of martial arts training and then up on their completion they were taught a specific style. Similiar to the cirriculum of that of universities. You must take your basic core classes, major requirements and electives.

A few examples of these would be Gung Lik or Gong Lik, Jeet Kuen, Tam Tui Lines 10 or 12. Sheperd Taming the Sheep Staff, * diagram broadsword, and etc.,

Acording to the story that I was told this is why LGY developed the 14 roads, when he went to the cH schools to teach, he saw the students doing the tam tui lines and deceloped 14 roads in order to compete with the tam tui lines and a way to develop basics for the mantis students. not sure about that one though

[ursa major]

Originally posted by KickingMantis
...I did go back to the thread that was started and initiated by ursa major in july 2002.

I guess he asked some very interesting questions about the white ape, praying mantis and black tiger exits the cave and steals the peach forms.

I have never heard of the black tiger steals the peach or exits the cave. I know they don't exist in the HK 7* lineage that I am currently studying....

BYTT was renamed Praying Mantis Steals the Peach, All those other forms mentioned by ursa major are most likely made up by Luo Gang Yu or adaptions of forms he learned elsewhere. they are not found in old lists PRC 7* PM forms. "...



Hello KickingMantis,

FYI: to date I have not been able to find any support for the two forms "Black Tiger Steps from Cave" and "Black Tiger Steals the Peach" in any PM curriculum -- other than that from which I was taught. As-far-as-I-know the trail ends there hence I do not consider these two forms to be classical PM.

regards,
UM.




.

[KickingMantis]

Thanks a lot for the FYI

Would you be willing to tell us of what lineage you learned these sets?

Compared to The White Gibbon Exits/Steal Sets and the Praying Mantis Exits/Steals sets do they (Blk Tiger) flow or are played simliar?

Have you asked your teacher about these sets and what is his explanation or reasoning for his line haveing them ?

[ursa major]

Originally posted by KickingMantis
Thanks a lot for the FYI

Would you be willing to tell us of what lineage you learned these sets?

Compared to The White Gibbon Exits/Steal Sets and the Praying Mantis Exits/Steals sets do they (Blk Tiger) flow or are played simliar?

Have you asked your teacher about these sets and what is his explanation or reasoning for his line haveing them ?

Hello KickingMantis,

At this point in time I prefer not to discuss the lineage through which I learned these sets.

The Black Tiger forms contain some very interesting techniques that are not repeated or shared in either PM or Monkey Steals/Exits. I am not sure where this 'not shared' stuff comes from I always assumed the Black Tiger system ? Anyway, they play similarily to Monkey and PM and about 70% of each form is recodnizable as 7 Star material (which is why I always assumed it was original 7 Star). IMO the most notable aspect of these forms is the ease through which they combine advancing steps with with upper and lower body techniques -- they have a very unique motion to them. For comparisons sake, IMO they are not as technical as the Monkey forms nor are they filled with rich traditional material as the PM forms are.

I asked about these forms once but did not receive any noteworthy answers other than "Grand Master picked them up during a sabbatical overseas...". There you have it.

regards,
UM.

[Tainan Mantis]

Kicking Mantis,
It seems as though the original White Ape Steals the Peach was renamed Mantis...
and then a NEW White Ape Steals the .... was added.

Interesting that these forms look like Shanhsi Tongbei.

Modern Chinese dictionaries call Gibbon Changbi Yuan.
All I can find for Bai yuan is white ape. I suspect it is a specific breed of animal, but can't find any proof.

You know the fable/story that it is actaully someone's name?

I think Ursa Major's Black Tiger Exits the Cave, if he has this form, is different than the one I refer.
The one I refer is exactly the same as Meihua Shou/ Plum Flower Hands, but missing some moves at the end.

[carly]

you know thatsome styles of white ape tong bei have two forms called Ape leaves the cave and Ape returns to the cave, don't you?

[Tainan Mantis]

I don't have many lists of Tong Bei, but those names also exist in some China PM schools.

[Tainan Mantis]

The book cover.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
The book cover.

Hello Tainan Mantis,

Fascinating. May I ask where you found this ? Also, is there any information you can post about this ? What style? Who ? When ?

thx in advance,
UM.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Ursa Major,
Can you read Chinese?
It will be easier to answer your questions by posting the preface.

I bought the book in Taiwan.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Hi Ursa Major,
Can you read Chinese?
It will be easier to answer your questions by posting the preface.

I bought the book in Taiwan.

Hello Tainan Mantis,

Truly I wish I could read Chinese ! I have all these WHF books and unfortunately can only enjoy the pictures. Could you post the ISBN ? I would like to buy a copy and compare what it has vs. what I was taught.

thx,
UM.

[MightyB]

I haven't bought any of these yet, but I'm thinking strongly about buying one of the simplified Chinese books. Here's a link:

Learning Chinese (http://www.chinesemall.com/learchin1.html)

[Tainan Mantis]

In Liang Hsuehsiang's old manuscripts of Taiji (later meihua) Mantis from the 1800's he lists;
beng bu
luan jie
8 elbows... as forms from Wang Lang.

Wrong there!
1. Liang Xuexiang's manuals that I have seen don't define his mantis as Taiji or Meihua.
2. His manuscripts also do not mention Wang Lang.

[JamesC]

Uhhh...you do realize that was 8 years ago, right?

[Tainan Mantis]

Uhhh...you do realize that was 8 years ago, right?
I made a mistake 8 years ago.
Since that time I have improved my historical research.
Now I am correcting my historical innaccuracy.

[B.Tunks]

Wrong there!
1. Liang Xuexiang's manuals that I have seen don't define his mantis as Taiji or Meihua.


Yep, hate to sound like broken record but it was all just Tanglang until the generation of Wang Yunsheng and Jiang Hualong.

[alextse4]

Wrong there!
1. Liang Xuexiang's manuals that I have seen don't define his mantis as Taiji or Meihua.
2. His manuscripts also do not mention Wang Lang.

I think you are wrong.

[Tainan Mantis]

I think you are wrong.
HA!
According to this I am definetely wrong!
THis is the manuscript that I dont have.
Thanks for sharing that.
Kevin