gao bagua

[hairywhiteguy]

who studies gao bagua?

[Walter Joyce]

I practice gao jibengong as taught bu Luo De Xie. I also practice the plam changes, two of the heavenly sten sets, some of the 8 pieces of brocade and circle walking. I train alternate days one day gao, one day chen taiji. Standing meditation as well.

[Rockwood]

Hi, I like to practice Gao bagua. I learned some from my teacher Bernie Langan and his teacher Luo De Xiu. He comes from Taiwan every summer to teach us. Right now me and some friends are doing a lot of repetitions of the straight line forms, jiben gong and circular forms that he taught us. Plus he showed us lots of applications and ways to beat people up.

HairyGuy- Who is your teacher?

-JessO

[hairywhiteguy]

Hey, I study from Allen Pittman in Atlanta who learned from Hung I-Mein.(sp?)

We start with the 24 "square", the 64, 8 mother palms, and a bunch of other stuff I won't get into at this point.

How many variations have you guys seen of say the second mother palm. We refer to it as water. I don't know what others call it.

Walter Joyce--"heavenly sten sets, some of the 8 pieces of brocade" .... what are these?

Rockwood--"jiben gong", what?
Sorry guys since most of my teachers students are American...we speak english. And my mandrin is not so good!!!




:D

[Rockwood]

Hi Hairy,

jibengong is just what they call basic training, that goes for any kind of kung fu. This particular set is arm circling, waist circling, that kind of thing that is characteristic of Bagua. I suppose in Shaolin jibengong would be push ups, punching drills, etc.

Heavenly stems or Tien Gan I think is the same as your teachers "24 exercises". Body training drills to make you stronger and unify the body's strength. They are usually more demanding than the jibengong exercises.

Eight pieces of brocade are the Ba Duan Jin, common among Chinese martial arts all over. They are not a part of the Gao style Bagua system that I know of.

I learned the single palm change and the eight palm changes from Mr. Luo when he was here over the last three years. I'm not sure how they fit in with the trigrams, Luo has never spoken about that to our group. After the single palm change they are:

smooth body palm
piercing body palm
returning body palm
overturning body palm
turning body palm
twisting body palm
behind the body palm
spinning body palm

The second one, piercing body palm begins with a piercing attack to the center of the circle. Then it has a kind of up and down splitting motion to the outside as you drop into a low stance. It is equivalent the the Double Palm change in a lot of other styles. Works the legs very well. Could you give us an idea of how you do it?

I met your teacher when he came to visit the San Francisco Bay area last year. He showed the first 8 straight line forms. They were a bit different from the way I learned 'em so it was cool to see a different take on the principles. Allen is a very nice man who knows a heck of a lot about martial arts.

-Jess O'Brien

[hairywhiteguy]

Thanks for the reply!!!

Wow, I've never even heard of the Eight pieces of brocade.. at least by that name. Is it used in other styles of Ba gua.

Jiben gong....o, ok, the roots of the system. I get it. yea same as 24.

Well our 2nd mother palm, water, has a throwing technique then something similar to snake but with a different elbow technique. The splitting technique sound like the beginning.

So, how is hsing-I tied in for you?


How does you teacher stress kicks?
we stess them as much as possible, one of thoes things use it if ya got it, don't be afraid to use it.

[omarthefish]

Coming in late on this one, but I learned the gao style 8 mother palms and a couple changes from YC Wong. Funny thing is, here in China, my Sifu said my bagua was 'non-standard' and has 'corrected' me. Now I don't know what style I'm doing. This guy in China doesn't seem to recognize different styles of bagua. 'There is only Dong Haichuan style bagua', he says. :p

The second palm, in both variations I have learned, is palms up, fingers pointing outward in opposite directions like you are offering a watermelon up for sacrifice. The first way I learned it, the palms were at about eybrow level and the forearms were both verticle but about a shoulderw width apart. The second way I learned it was with the forearms pressed together and the palms of my hands about as high as my chin.

I haven't memorized the names for any of them as I learned them in Chinese and the Chiense names are just to hard to remember so I just call them 'the first palm' 'the second palm' etc.

[hairywhiteguy]

omarthefish- is that a static palm, it sounds like it.... is it used palms centered toward the center or toward the line?

'There is only Dong Haichuan style bagua'....and of course he has it right? and no one else? right?
I thought one gets the blueprints of a system and then makes it there own, to there own specifics... guess I was wrong!!:D :D

Any body else practice a southern short system along with ba gua?

[omarthefish]

Yes it's a static palm. The 8 mother palms all are. Actually, as I understand it, it's neither on the line or towards the middle. It depends on the flexibility of your waist. You just twist as far as your flexibility will allow. In some positions I can only twist to face the middle (90 degrees) but in the classic bagua 'on guard' stance I twist all the way around to face the opposite direction from the way I'm walking (180 degrees).

The comment about 'there is only Dong Haichuan's bagua' I think is mostly just a reflection of his dislike of fragmentation into different schools and styles and his way of telling me not to get caught up in that sort of thing.

Southern 'short' system? Hung Gar? :D YC Wong, my original Sifu is after all first and foremost a Hung Gar Sifu. Bagua is more of a sideline. (one he does really well though. Check out the article in Bagua Journal 3-2)

[count]

What is a static palm?

[omarthefish]

static, as in not moving. Stationary postures from the waist up held while circle walking.

Are you mainly just a taiji guy count? I figured this was pretty clear for bagua guys. There's the 64 paml changes which twist and spiral and all that and then for jibengong we mostly just hold 'static' postures while circle walking.

[count]

Originally posted by omarthefish
static, as in not moving. Stationary postures from the waist up held while circle walking.

Are you mainly just a taiji guy count? I figured this was pretty clear for bagua guys. There's the 64 paml changes which twist and spiral and all that and then for jibengong we mostly just hold 'static' postures while circle walking.

Really, I've never heard of any palm being static. Not even in chi kung. And no, I'm not "mainly a taiji guy". I don't study Gao style either. Just seems to me that the palms are at least, always changing from yin to yang and back again if your walking the circle? Maybe I'm just taking your comments too literal? Do you guys follow the bagua for your palms? Omar, you described your "second palm". Could you name the gua if not the palm? It sounds like you are describing our "monkey" palm. When you press your forearms together like that do you walk around the circle and just hold them together or do you open them out as you step? Maybe I'm taking this thread too far off topic? Sorry!

[omarthefish]

Name the gua? You mean like yi-ching or something?

Hm. I'm looking through a book on Liang style bagua. The '2nd' palm position that seems to correspond to what I'm talking about could be translated 'white ape presents fruit'. I (there's no us guys here, just me) keep the arms together as I walk. They do not come apart as I step. The only time the arms change position is when I reverse direction around the circle. In that one, I am able to maintain about a 100 degree twist as I walk.

I think you're maybe just real sensitive to the word 'static'. I'm sure you'll agree there is stillness in motion and motion in stillness. Perhaps 'static' seems to imply there's nothing going on. I just find the term most convenient to differentiate from the changes that take place in the 64 palm change set.

The way I train the 8 mother palms, from the waist up, you are very very still. The stepping should be smooth enough so as not to disturb the upper body. It's almost like zhan zhuang except you are walking. Also, different from most folks, I walk extremely slowly. The slower the better. At present, I hold each position for 16 circles - 8 clockwise and 8 counterclockwise. At the end of walking 64 circles both directions I have typically walked about 1 hour 45 minutes.

When I originally learned the palms from YC Wong, the positions were less extreme and the walking speed was more natural. He also never emphasised the number of circles like my current Sifu does.

The style I'm practicing now seems to match with Liang style pretty close. There may be other things my Sifu would like to change in the way I practice but officially he is only teaching me BAJI ! The bagua is mainly just to support my BAJI! practice. The 8 mother palms are a great way to just simply develope gong-fu in whatever movements you do.

[count]

Originally posted by omarthefish
]Name the gua? You mean like yi-ching or something?
NO!!!, The I-ching is for fortune telling, not for martial art. The bagua diagram is a linear expression of yin and yang and is laid out differently than the one for the i-ching. It begs a question though. Why is your "White Ape offers the fruit" palm done second?


Hm. I'm looking through a book on Liang style bagua. The '2nd' palm position that seems to correspond to what I'm talking about could be translated 'white ape presents fruit'. I (there's no us guys here, just me) keep the arms together as I walk. They do not come apart as I step. The only time the arms change position is when I reverse direction around the circle. In that one, I am able to maintain about a 100 degree twist as I walk.
This disturbs me. This palm connects with the lung. When you close your arms together it pumps blood in and when you open them blood flows out. Do you hold your breath or something when you walk around the circle holding this palm? This is one reason you should not try to learn bagua from a book!


I think you're maybe just real sensitive to the word 'static'. I'm sure you'll agree there is stillness in motion and motion in stillness. Perhaps 'static' seems to imply there's nothing going on. I just find the term most convenient to differentiate from the changes that take place in the 64 palm change set.

The way I train the 8 mother palms, from the waist up, you are very very still. The stepping should be smooth enough so as not to disturb the upper body. It's almost like zhan zhuang except you are walking. Also, different from most folks, I walk extremely slowly. The slower the better. At present, I hold each position for 16 circles - 8 clockwise and 8 counterclockwise. At the end of walking 64 circles both directions I have typically walked about 1 hour 45 minutes.

When I originally learned the palms from YC Wong, the positions were less extreme and the walking speed was more natural. He also never emphasised the number of circles like my current Sifu does.

Yes, that's it. I'm just sensitive about the word static. I don't consider zhang zhuan static either. 8 mother palms form can be done different ways. Can be done for chi kung or it can be done for martial arts. Either way, you are constantly flexing and relaxing with each step and each breath. Either way, the one palm dissolves when you change and one palm comes out. Every step has a penetrating/griping quality to it. I don't think it matter about the number ov revolutions. For martial, the focus is more on the change.


The style I'm practicing now seems to match with Liang style pretty close. There may be other things my Sifu would like to change in the way I practice but officially he is only teaching me BAJI ! The bagua is mainly just to support my BAJI! practice. The 8 mother palms are a great way to just simply develope gong-fu in whatever movements you do.
Funny, I have mentioned this before but I started bagua to fix some of the damage baji did to my knees. Ever since than I have not done any baji training though. No need. I've forgotten if you said your teacher teaches piqua too?

[hairywhiteguy]

I think what is going on is a simple misunderstanding....

there are static palms, which are exactly that, static. They are esoteric postures you hold while walking the cirlce. We use them to warm up some times, sometimes to focus on the center (tree, "empty" space, ect.), or for spiritual use....

Then there are 8 mother palms. The "mothers" of the 64 straight. 8 divides in to 64, 8 times. Hence, the 8 mother palms, one for each set of straight or as we call them 8 houses. Then later they all tie together on the circle. Palm 1, mother, palm 2,....or any order.... that works...

These are different then the static palms.

What book are you guys ref. to?

O, and the gua of each 64 hand... and mother is very important.

Yea, in refrence to the southern short topic, I studied Lung Ying in sarasota www.lungyingjingjung.com
I was just wondering what your transfer was like? The different energy creation, apps. and such. Hung ga is freggin' great I know a few practicioners.

I haven't got the bagua journals yet...someone sent them all on disk to one of my friends and I'll aquire them soon! If ya want to email the issue to me it to me my addresss is orderofmasses@hotmail.com that would be great!;)

omarthefish--"The comment about 'there is only Dong Haichuan's bagua' I think is mostly just a reflection of his dislike of fragmentation into different schools and styles and his way of telling me not to get caught up in that sort of thing."

:D If thats what he thinks that cool. Really freggin' cool.


About the use of Ba Gua 'cause another system is bad for your knees... well most of us dont have to squat to poop or wash clothes or numerous other things so we really, as a society are not tought to use our knees wisely.... And so far Ba-Gua is a big pain on the knees. Next time your out circling start out with a bunch of full extention squats, then do snake ( most branches first and most common "mother" palm) 40 times or so, with full leg extensions(for strech) and hold it, wiggle around to set your position then put your face to the ground with a straight back....then go do some weighted leg lifts and fully extend(sets the knees). Of couse I mean no harm against baji, I've seen very little so count me ignorant in that regard.

I hope I didn't make a A** of myself!
Thanks again for the chit chat, I hope we continue to learn and teach from each other!

[omarthefish]

This disturbs me. This palm connects with the lung. When you close your arms together it pumps blood in and when you open them blood flows out. Do you hold your breath or something when you walk around the circle holding this palm? This is one reason you should not try to learn bagua from a book!

Aya! I'm hardly still like a statue. Of course there all little movements throughout the body, otherwise I'd be dead:D. Oh, and don't worry, I'm not learning from a book. It's just that I never learned any fancy names for the movements so in order to try to communicate more clearly I refered to the only good bagua book I have here in China.

hairywhiteguy, I think you seem to know what I'm talking about.
The book is in Chinese and is called 'Bagua Jing Yao' ('Essentials of Bagua' isbn:7-5009-1622-1). Where we differ is that I don't consider them warm ups. They are the core of bagua. Last night I spent just slightly less than 2 hours practicing them.

BTW, I realized after practice that I exageratted the amount of twist I get. It's not important. The main point is still that I think the rule is not a specific degree angle but rather just depends on your spinal flexibility.

Count,
No. I'm not learning pigua. I learned a little from my Hung Gar Sifu in America but my Baji Sifu seems to have no experience with pigua. (at least none that he's mentioned:confused: )


Yes, that's it. I'm just sensitive about the word static. I don't consider zhang zhuan static either. 8 mother palms form can be done different ways. Can be done for chi kung or it can be done for martial arts. Either way, you are constantly flexing and relaxing with each step and each breath. Either way, the one palm dissolves when you change and one palm comes out. Every step has a penetrating/griping quality to it. I don't think it matter about the number ov revolutions. For martial, the focus is more on the change.

Now we're on the same page! I agree almost completely. The only point I differ on is that I don't think the qi-gong should be separated from it's martial arts context. It's not 'either/or' it's 'not only/but also.'

[count]

Hey fish,
I didn't mean to imply you were learning from a book. I only meant in general, that if people try to learn from a book or reading something on the internet, they might not understand the whole thing and even practice something in an unhealthy way.

Baji without piqua is like pancakes without syrup.;)

[omarthefish]

point taken.

And why bring up pancakes and maple syrup?! :( Don't you realize I am trapped in China and haven't seen either one for nearly 2 years! You're driving me crazy. My Dad is sitting there in Vermont, maybe having pancakes with REAL VERMONT MAPLE SYRUP! right now. . . *sob*.

[count]

REAL VERMONT MAPLE SYRUP...>

Grrrrrghg *Homer Simpson Gurgling Noise*

Say do they get the Simpsons over there?:D

[count]

The 10 o'clock news :p
Tell you what, If you can wait until fall 2004 I'll personally bring it to you.:p Can I send you guys anything? You make me feel guilty.

[Buddy]

The tiangan (what someone is calling the "24") are different than either of the jibengong (basic training) sets. There is as well the jibenshoufa (or basic hand techniques) of which there are ten. In the Yizhong system these "static" postures are generaly taught later in the game. Gaoshi bagua is a very complex and complete method. The Xiantian (pre-heaven) changes teach Bagua shenfa (body-method). The Houtian (post-heaven) teaches usage.
Interestingly the tiangan is done by the Zhang Zhunfeng and Wu Mingxia branches but not by those in Tianjin.
Buddy

[hairywhiteguy]

Have you learned what we refer to as the auxiliary (sp?) palms?
There used to 'weave through a crowd.'

What has been your teaching on use of weight for arm strength?

thanks!

[Buddy]

"Have you learned what we refer to as the auxiliary (sp?) palms?
There used to 'weave through a crowd."

I'm not certain to what you refer. Is it the Wulong Baiwei (Black Dragon Waves its Tail)?

"What has been your teaching on use of weight for arm strength?"

I have no aversion to weight training.
Buddy

[hairywhiteguy]

well Buddy,

I'll explain one for everyone, as far as I know;

when walking the circle the hands are back to back not touching about the heigth of the navel, the "inside" hand goes upward and the "outside" hand goes down and to the outside, repeat on the turn. This uses the backside of the palms...it also makes a great strech. I believe this is one and two of four; front, back, right, and left.
I honestly know little about tai chi.

All I know is these palms work great for manuvering through people.

thanks for everyones replies.
any questions?