Emei Bai Mei

[Shaolin Master]

Last weekend I travelled with my Sifu (of ZiMen & YingMen) to a town known as QingJiang. QingJiang is the martial village of JiangXi Province (it is like what CangZhou is to Hebei and Wudanis to HuBei). We went to visit fellow masters of our arts and the current ZhangMen of ZiMen quan. It was more than interesting to say the least.

Anyway,......we met an old practitioner of BaiMei. I was enthusiastic to find a practitioner all the way here in JiangXi so I showed him JBT and he exclaimed that is not Bai Mei. Then he performed a set and itwas ultra-different to say the least. Then I thanked him and asked about my Babuhuzhang (which is anEmei art I studied years ago claiming a Bai Mei origin). He then said that he had seen Babuhuzhang but in Emei BaiMei is the art he practised.

So of course I asked further questions and then he related how the nameof the style he practises came to be known as Bai Mei Quan.

He elaborated that in the Southern Song times there were many martial practises on Emei Shan. As an example the 'Emei 12 Zhuang Gong' as practised by Venerable Monk BaiYun. As well as his art as founded by DeYuan who mimicked the ape's TiaoYe(jumping/leaping) and TengNuo (rise & fall gallop) motions and then developed a set of Ape Fist. In oneof the manuals which he showed it had a section that explained that DeYuan white hair when he was older including his eyebrows and as a result he became known as Bai Mei Fa Shi (Venerable Master Bai Mei). Generations later adopted the name from their founder and the style becameknown as BaiMeiQuan.

Anyways, it was highly interesting the set is relatively short and simple, combat light and agile, movements soft but not so compact, but totally different to the Chueng Lai Chuen Clans.

Regards
Wu Chan Long

[fiercest tiger]

cool, did it use the CLC salute from bak mei?

Was there phoenix eye strikes? Was there the FCTT tell us more, please.

sounds like you are seeing the best masters and styles around, good for you mate.

Did he know of CLC?

TAKE CARE
FT:)

[fiercest tiger]

what was the names of there forms if you could remember?

was there moves that looked like the usual bak mei batt faat?

cheers
FT

[EAZ]

Please let us know some more!

Any tidbit would be of use !

We of Vietnam lineage are aware of the existence of other lineages outside of Grand Master Cheng Lai Chuen as well as the differences between different generation of practioners under Grand Master Cheung Lai Chuen: it has influenced the theory and practice of Pei Mei in Vietnam. I as a practitioner however cannot as yet pull all the threads to gether.

Any information would of use and even perhaps if I could reach you somehow this would be of great benefit to us to gain your insight.

Much regards,


EAZ

[BSH]

I would prefer to trace my lineage to Bak Mei, the originator of the system. I do not study Bak Mei, but lineage is very important in my opinion.

[fiercest tiger]

what shaolin master is trying to say is that there is bak mei kung fu that doesnt trace to CLC. I was told a story that CLC created the system from all his previous training and his awesome fighting techniques.

Futsan BAK MEI also dont claim CLC as grandmaster

Omei BAK MEI too


:)

FT

[Yum Cha]

Firstly, thank you Shaolin Master for the great story. A tremendous little collection of details. I too would like to hear your interpretation of the physical aspect of the art.


Hi Custom,
The debate concerns parallell lineages to Grand Master Cheung Lai Cheun, that trace back to the Monk Pak Mei. Grand Master claims himself as 4th generation, and as the first to introduce the art to the secular world. The actual existance of a real "Pak Mei" is still a matter of conjecture and myth from most points of view. Its not like white eyebrows were rare....right?

These other lineages assume the obvious probability that there were other students in the second and third generation, perhaps monks, whom created their own branches.

This is all well and good, and logically acceptable at face value.

But, in my humble opinion, the Pak Mei taught by Grand Master Cheung Lai Cheun is not only the art but the man who carried it. What he passed on is from him, regardless of name, and its reputation is based upon his interpretation. I suspect the arts are as SM indicated, related in name only...or??

FT,
I believe Futshan has CLC lineage as well as the "Old" style. SM is a much better reference on that than I however, I'm sure. We're in Chinatown this Sunday for Lion Dancing...see ya?

[fiercest tiger]

Hiya,

I meant the eddie chongs bak mei has no relation to CLC IS THAT RIGHT?

may see you in china town.....has asing come back from china yet?

FT

[Yum Cha]

It appears Eddie Chong has a different group of patterns, and claims to be Futsan, this is true. Sifu knows people in Futsan that do the same as they do in Hong Kong, more or less, too. They are friendly with Guangzhou.

And of course, SM has his Pak Mei from Futsan, but I've only seen little bits. Familiar that they were, but not exact.

Those are the facts (?) in my possession.

Sifu is back, yes, with pix and video. Possibly something worth posting on the website. Watching video at the after-lion-dance dinner...

[Shaolin Master]

I'll attempt to answer all questions:

FT's Questions :

Did it use the CLC salute from bak mei?
--> NO

Was there phoenix eye strikes? Was there the FCTT tell us more?
--> there were a few fist strikes but honestly I couldn't see the fists shape clearly and I didn't care about it too much. FCTT yes this is inherit in most styles, howeve it was coupled with complete stepping.

Did he know of CLC
--> I didn't ask

How many forms
--> Only One 'BaiMeiQuan'

Batt Fatt
--> I guess from a motionary point of view yes but from a power and supporting structure view no. So in essence no.

EAZ,
--> I don't knowall that much about the vietnam histories of BM but I thought most influences came from ChoyLiFut, HungMen and other Hakka arts.

Custom156,BSH,
--> There are no provable legitimate lineages tracing to Bai Mei as Bai Mei as a person is not provable (except in a few novels which historically had some factual element). World Bai Mei is Cheung Lai Chuen's (mostly) and he was as worthy as any even if it was called Chueng's Fist it would still be good. It is a chinese cultural thing few Chinese masters would claim to have made something up,they usually ascribe it to someone else usually in legend. This creates a problem.

-->What I am saying is that another art named BAI MEI QUAN from Emei Mt bears no resemblance or tieto CLC's Bai Mei. However this also means that other arts by that name exist. So as YC said they relate in name only.

Regarding the Futsan Saga (I'llbe there in 2 weeks time with my students who'll be visiting) I have spoken to 2 of my uncles and I will meet them then. I'll also be researching Hung Men at the same time. I'll withhold comments on this until after the expidtion.

FT/EAZ, as I'd be around Guangdong but am also returning to MeiZhou (Hakka city) are there any particular styles you wish to know more about.

YC, regards to Leung Sifu.

Cheers,
Wu Chan Long

PS : When I complete all 8 Zi of ZiMen Quan (I'm up to 5) I will return to QingJiang to study the weapons sets. At that time I will ask the EmeiBaimequan practitioner further questions.

[Diamond Talons]

Interesting SM that only one set is noted & this is the way it is for what I call old frame Hakka Tong Long just one set with most everything else based on testing application in a way that the testing becomes more dangerous more real over time. Have you seen other hands Hakka or not Hakka that also keep to the one set way & basing getting skill on testing or real practice.

[Bolt]

Eddie Chong's Bak Mei is from Futsan, does have some of the same sets as other lineages, and does not have direct lineage to CLC folks. As I've read, his lineage is same as Zhong Luo in San Fransisco (who's father in still in Futsan).

[TenTigers]

Shaolin, the Bak Mei that I was taught (My Sifu preferred to call it Ngor Mei P'ai) is symetrical rather than one-sided, is the Omei Bai-Mei also symetrical as well?

[Shaolin Master]

Diamond Talons,

As I have seen there are many still like this. However,it makes no real difference. Once set many methods drilled individually and studied in all its complexity or many sets which essentially drill again except using sets. It doesn't matter how it is done as long as it is done :)

Bolt,
Futsan later (give me 2 weeks).

TenTigers
Symmetrical / Once sided .....BakMei is not that mono-conceptualised. The BMQ of EM is under your classification symmetrical.

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks for the answers, did you say the form was farely short?

was the hands short range or both long fist and short?

Did it come with chi kung?

have fin in guangzhou!:)

FT

[Shaolin Master]

Most Emei styles (in fact most styles out here as well) are relatively internal based so we practise qigong within the practise of the methods so to speak. Although I didn't specifically ask my sifu (BTW I have become Tudi now) mentioned this as well as I have trained in this methodology previously.
In the arts here I have found that there are not separate specific entities as much as contained within and taught as pieces but of the same puzzle if that makes sense.

Yes the set was relatively short but still longer than any one of the three main BM forms (JBT,SBM,MFCL). Shorter relative to a standard Hung Ga or ChoyLifut set as an example but hakka arts tend to be shorter drills than most.

I always have fun. In fact I may not even return home as I am having literally the time of my life. Now I am older, my language skills are really improved and I have long term friends life is better than a dream. I have trained and know so many legendary teachers the knowledge and memories of a lifetime. I mean I go to a banquet almost everyday curtosy of friends, businessmen, teachers and associates. Life here is good to say the least.

thanks
Wu Chan Long

[jon]

Shaolin Master

First and foremost im glad to hear your having a great time in China, also glad to hear of your new place with your sifu.
Im hoping to visit with my sifu myself before to long, there is much to see and do. Today however was my sifus mums birthday. She is in her eightys and vibrant and fit as can be - still practicing Tai Chi. Its insightfull to realise just how far these skills have been passed down - intact.


Something you said picked up my interest, forgive me for being so specific and i will understand if this is something you do not wish to eleborate on. Still ill ask anyway if you will forgive me:)

You made mention that after you performed your set this gentleman stated something along the lines of "thats not Bak Mei". Im very curious if he expanded at all on this comment and if so what in his opinion was missing or changed?

I would also be highly curious as to what this gentlemans opinion was of Chung Lai Chun Bak Mei?

Anyway i know this is somewhat opening you up to fire so i will respect your wishes if this is not something you wish to delve into.

Hope you continue to enjoy your time there, with any luck i may be able to visit you. Would be great to have a yum cha in another country with someone from this forum:)

All the best, happy playing
Jon

[tnwingtsun]

FT said......"Did it come with chi kung?"


I want mine with a Coke and fries:p

All kidding aside this is a good thread I'd like to see continue,
I'm just to tired to ask deep questions,I'll give it a try.

Is Ngor Mei pronounced in English Nor Mei?

Is Ngor Mei the same as Omei??

I have heard from more than one Bai Mei Sifu that CLC called
his art Nor Mei Shaolin before changing the name to Bai Mei.

If Bai Mei is pure Taoist as some claim then why did CLC
have his pic taken wearing Shaolin robes?

Maybe Taoist and Buddest go together like garlic and ginger?

Thoughts anyone?

SM,you lucky dog you:)

[Shaolin Master]

Jon,

His statement was made in the context that it was not the Bak Mei of his practise! The two arts are different. As I said previoulsy I did not mention CLC to him. I was there for ZiMenQuan and YingMenQuan (Yue Jia) primarily it was only coincidence that I came accross the Emei Bai MeiQuan practitioner.

Chinese masters are very respectful to me. My own teacher appreciated highly my old frame ZhaoBao Taijiquan. He thought highly of the art as it beared resemblance to his wudang fist style, noting he also practises Wudang Gong Gun Baguazhang. (though he started learning it late in his life (at 40 unlike ZiMenQuan which was taughtby his father and grandfather) and he is nownearly 80.

Oh so whenare coming to China ? and where? It would be good to meet.

tnwingtsun,

Emei Mountain (Mandarin : Emei Shan / Cantonese : Ngor Mei San)

The Buddhist Daoist phenomenon has long been treated. The novel states Daoist the drawings of Bai Mei could be either. The pictures of Juk Fa Wan & Name are Buddhist. Bak Mei is an unprovablelegend as much as Chang San Feng is in Taijiquan....hard to say.

Lucky yes, but I do miss the food variety back home in Oz

:cool: Regards
WuChanLong

[Bolt]

*My* understandings : Emei, Omei, Ngor Mei all the same. I'm told that Bak Mei was buddhist, then with his travel (escape) he ended up in area of daoists and became daoist. This is where the internal aspects became integrated into the style. Generalized but you get the gist.
Is it possible to find out the lineage of this individual, or where (geographically) he learned his Bak Mei at?

[FIRE HAWK]

Chau Qwan Ki of the Quan Ki Do learned a art from his uncle who was a monk named Chu Ah Nan the founder of Chu Gar Southern Mantis Chau Qwan Ki learned from his uncle Chu Ah Nan Chu Gar Southern Mantis and a art called Ngau Mai Sui Lam i am not sure if this is the same art as Negor Mai Sui Lam that Cheung Lai Chuan called his art .

[TenTigers]

Has anyone heard the legend that Ngor Mei P'ai is actually a closed sect strictly for women, passed down mother to daughter?

[jon]

Shaolin Master

Thank you for your answers, i realise his comments where made in context i was just curious exactly what he found to be out of alignment with his own practice. I also realise you did not ask him about Chung Lai Chun. My question was a little badly worded but i was more after his opinion on the linage as opposed to the man himself. I can still understand if this was not the focuss of your talk and may not have even been on the agenda.


I dont have details on my trip yet, it was originaly going to be going late last year for San Shao but as you may have noticed it has fallen though for the olympics. Still im hoping to go simply on personal interest, depends partly on my sifu and partly on when i can save up a decent amount of money.
Still ill be sure to drop you a line before i leave and let you know where ill be and when.

All the best
Jon

[Yum Cha]

TTT

[tparkerkfo]

Hello Shaolin Master,

I just read all these posts and I was wondering what you found in Futsan? I have a little interest in Futsan Bak Mei becuase that seems to be the only one near me. Luo sifu from Fatsan teaches Bak Mei in SF and Eddie Chong teaches down the road from me. Just currious as to the lineages and how the trace down. Facinating stuff.

Tom
________
PREGNANT TUBE (http://www.****tube.com/categories/34/pregnant/videos/1)

[fiercest tiger]

Is that the fish mungers son? If so i think its a mixture of dragon and bak mei thats why the white dragon name!!

if it is him i have seen his sup jee on a wing lam video.

FT

[MAC]

His father is Mai Yu Qiang and I believe he resides on Futsan. Zhong Luo does have his web site where he has video of his sup jee available.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi MAC and FT,

Yes that is who I was speaking of. I met him once at his school. I was considering taking lessons. He is a very nice guy, atleast from my personal experience. I have a feeling this may differ depending on ones experience. LOL. He apparently is ****y and trying to show how good Bak Mei is for real fighting. I beleive he may be stepping on toes. Though he was very nice to me.

Thanks for the name of that form. I have two clips of him, both in wing lam videos. One was at a masters demo and is on one a intro tape that shows different people. Is there something I can look for to figure out which one would be Sub Jee? What tape was it? Is this similar to CLC Sub Jee? I want to learn more about Bak Mei, so it is interesting to see the forms and put a name to them.

Last time I checked his website it was down. Is there a new link? I'll check again.

I love the southern arts, especially Wing Chun, Leung Ying, Bak Mei, and Hung Gar. Few people around know these styles, and less are apparently good at them. LOL.

Thanks
Tom
________
DODGE DYNASTY HISTORY (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Dodge_Dynasty)

[MAC]

Judging (if I may) from his sup jee video, he does have tendency to show for contemporary application. His web site : http://www.undergroundkungfu.com/
Took me quite a while to locate this, as I used to look for an older site I had been refered to. His sup jee is not like CLC that I have seen.
It seems to me, though, that many of these folks here have much broader exposure to this than I do.

[buddhapalm]

Hi Shaolin Master,
In this old post you mentioned you may go back to Emei to meet the BaimeiQuan master. Just wondering if there was any update on that adventure ?

I have a form called Dai Fut Jeung. My KF Uncle told me our Sigung told him it was from Bak Mei and rare. But the forms are completely soft, flowing and palms. Basically an internal palm form. It is nothing like Bak Mei of CLC etc. I am not sure if it really is a Bai Mei form, it could all have been a misunderstanding/miscommunication from 40 years ago.

Your posting has me intrigued. I would love to find out more about your Emei BaiMeiQuan system.

Kindest Regards,

Buddhapalm

[ittokaos]

Well, I have been reading this post and I am glad that someone is finally even mentioning Fushan Bak Mei.

I am currently being taught by a former student of Eddie Chong and I am currently researching the only styles of Bak Mei that are available in the US(to the best of my knowledge). Those are Fushan and CLC(is not given an area because is shows up all over china and even vietnam). What I have gathered thus frar is that there are about 7 different styles of Bak Mei. Whether or not this info is correct has yet to be verified considering that I only have seen 3 of them.

What I have learned in terms of history our style(Fushan)does not have CLC as a (lineage)holder. The reason for this is that the Wind Fire Taoist did in fact teach individuals other than Cheung Lai Chuen, Bak Mei. One of those individuals was his disciple Lau Siu Leung who lived in Fushan. Also, it seems as though CLC Bak Mei is a composition of the Bak Mei that he was taught and the other southern styles that he is said to be a master of (many CLC practioners have confirmed this). The Emei(Omei) system would probably be pretty close to the Fushan style (i would imagine) considering that it doesn't have the other styles of CLC in it.

I personally have never seen the Emei style but I imagine is is very fluid and appears as a combo of hard and soft. If so, it would resemble Fushan Bak Mei. I would imagine that those 2 styles would be as close to the original as it gets. However, there are more styles out there and just because it calls itself Bak Mei and doesn't look like CLC, doesn't mean that it's not Bak Mei. If that were true than CLC Bak Mei wouldn't be considered Bak Mei either. Futhermore,(this is going to **** people off) just because Cheung Lai Chuen came out to the world and exclaimed that he does Bak Mei first, doesn't mean that everyone else is a liar and that he holds direct lineage. Look no further than modern day Shaolin and Chen Village to see that one cannot just go by who tells them first.



I hope this helps,

WF

PS---have more discussions on Bak Mei. Fushan, CLC, Emei..etc. Who cares the style b/c I love it all!!!

Thanks!!

[bredmond812]

Look no further than modern day Shaolin and Chen Village to see that one cannot just go by who tells them first.


Can you elaborate on this statement for me please?

Thanks in advance,



B Red

[ittokaos]

Well, let's see. If you are not too well versed on the current state of Shaolin it is this: very few monks do kung fu(tcma) or can actually fight. The majority of it is modern wushu and is used to promote Shaolin as a tourist destination in order to line thier pockets. This is the sad state of shaolin today. The reason I said what I said(typed) is that they still promote everything as if they are still the greatest kung fu masters but that is no longer the case. They are also still promoting that their kung fu is the greatest when the majority of their kung fu is modern wushu. Most of the monks today who leave shaolin will verify this by saying something along the lines of "shaolin kung fu is not done at shaolin temple".(See Russbo.com,Gene Ching Articles(when he's not kissing their @$$), Bullshido, Kung fu Sifus aorund the world, Books, Kung Fu magazines, online articles, people who have any info on Communist Govt.s, etc...)

As for Chen Village, it has recently come into light that Chen Village has been suppressing the TaiJiquan of the neighboring villages and stating that their Tai Chi is fakeand/or not allowing their styles to come out at all. That is why styles such as Thunder Style and Zhaobao have only just recently been spread to the US. The PRC have been assisting this by "regulating" which styles are legit and which ones aren't. (See Zhaobao artists who know their lineage and or Thunder Style artiists(that know their lineage))

The point is that we believe them b/c they said "this is the way it is" first and not b/c we actually know it to be true.

I hope this helps,

WF

[bredmond812]

it was the Chen village part i didnt know. thanks for the clarification.

B Red

[ittokaos]

It was a surprize to me too.

[Lau]

Ittokaos,

Would you mind telling me more about the Wind Fire Taoist? I never heard of that name before, but we have "wind fire hall" written at the top of our Pak Mei altar.

Regards, Lau

[Shaolin Master]

Futsan Bakmei is still CLC based Bakmei.

Check out youtube http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=SifuWu&p=r&page=2

Regards
SM

[bredmond812]

Futsan Bakmei is still CLC based Bakmei.

Check out youtube http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=SifuWu&p=r&page=2

Regards
SM

My old Bakmei Sifu, Luo Hanzhong, was from Futsan, but he had nothing to do with CLC.

B Red

[ittokaos]

Well, from what I know(which isn't much), the Wind Fire Taoist (Fung Fou Dao Yan ) is the person from where our lineage and the CLC lineage split. There isn't much known about him(which is to say that I don't know much about him) but what I do know is that he was the third one down who is "known" to have been taught Bak Mei. It is from there that he taught his disciple from fushan (Lau Siu Leung) who taught Li Yong Jian, who taught Eddie Chong, who taught My Sifu. I would imagine that "Wind Fire Hall" is called so to pay homage to the Wind Fire Taoist.

According to the CLC lineage, the Wind Fire Taoist is to have taught Cheung Lai Chuen as well and from there is where he established his lineage.

I regards to the youtube thing, I don't know what those clips prove. They are just youtube clips on bak mei. I am aware that there are those in Fushan that practice CLC Bak Mei but they are not from the same lineage as Eddie Chong(Fushan Bak Mei as opposed to CLC Bak Mei in Fushan). Sifu Li and Sifu Chong's Bak Mei differ from CLC Bak Mei, but that is not to say that there are not similarites. If you are to look at the CLC Sup Jee and the Fushan Sup Jee you will definately see the similarities in the styles. By looking at the styles alone, one can see how Cheung Lai Chuen may have learned our style first and then altered it to fit comfortably with his current martial styles.

In a few weeks, I will go to Sacremento to visit Sifu Chong to train and discuss Bak Mei in depth. I may find out more about the Wind Fire Taoist at that time.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Wouldn't the Pak Mei that CLC created incorporate the Wander's Style and Dragon style he first learned, plus the Red River Hakka martial arts that his father and uncle taught him?

Here's some info on Emei:

Many Fujian martial arts, symbolize the union of the snake and the crane and the tiger, as seen in Yongchun White Crane, Wing Chun, and some other styles. Legends say that Miao Shun (Miu Shun) was the person who fused these arts. Miao Shun was in all likelihood a nickname, and his real identity may never be known (though the Miao family were relatives of the Ming royal family and thus hunted by the Manchu). Others join the Crane and Tiger, or the Dragon and Tiger. All are based on the union of the soft and hard jings.

It is possible that this “Miao Shun” had Emei training because many similarities exist between Emei and some Fujian styles, especially those that are Snake-Crane-Tiger based, such as Yong Chun White Crane and Wing Chun. Like Emei, White Crane is known for its Chuen Ging Jeet Lak (inch force exerted from the joints) and is considered a Hard/ Soft (pang guy noon) martial art. Perhaps what became Wing Chun originally came from merging Yongchun White Crane (which part of it was Crane and Tiger based) with Emei Snake and Tiger methods? The Tiger typically refers to training of the Spine, but is there also a connection between Emei’s “Snake” Body and “Tiger” Walking, and Wing Chun’s Snake and Tiger? There is according to research by Jim Roselando, a Wing Chun master that met with Emei Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong (see his website for additional info: http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=107&mode=&order=0&thold=0 ) :

The root of Wing Chun is the Siu Lin Tao (training of the little details) set, and the root of the other common arts of the Fujian region is San Chin (Three Battles) or Som Bo Jin (Three Step Arrow). These certainly represent two different types of Base Cultivation and most certainly different forms of “Ging/Qi” cultivation.

Wing Chun Kuen is characterized by its ‘narrow’ horse and ‘short’ bridge. The Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma (character “=” clamping the “yang” meridian horse) and the Emei “=” shoulder Wuji (empty) horse both are designed to cultivate the Zheng Qi (True/Proper Chi) and both follow the same Yin/Yang relationship of sinking of the Yin and raising or supporting of the Yang (as in Yee Jee Kim “Yang” Ma). It is also interesting to note that in the alchemy traditions of the art, the Snake or Serpent can be regarded as the dormant dan tien Zheng Qi coiled at the base of the spine waiting to be unleashed to penetrate the body’s pathways (much like Indian yoga discusses the kundalini: uncoiling of the snake at the base of the spine.

Research conducted by Wing Chun master Cho Hung-Choy, his students, and grand-students in the U.S.A, shows strong evidence in the form of written records with regards to the "mother system" of Cho family Wing Chun Kuen, the Siu Lien Tao. This mother system was a Buddhist internal martial system created during the Song Dynasty.

Wing Chun begins with Siu Lin Tao (Small/Little Ideas or Training). One of the Emei 12 Zhuang sets is called Siu Zhuang (Small/Little Ways). The first section of the Siu Lin Tao set (also found and further expanded on in the first section of the Biu Jee set) contains this same training concept for the hands/fingers as done in the Emei Mountain neigong sets. In the Cho family lienage, this section is called Snake Sliding Cocoon, in the Yuen Kay-San lineage it was originally called Sae Ying Sao (Snake Shape hand), and in the Fung family, Sae Mun Bai Jee (Four Direction Swaying Fingers). Many arts have this sort of training but what makes Wing Chun’s process different from that of other Fujian arts like Southern Mantis is the “Rou”(soft)-style Snake Binding property.

Emei also has the Tracing the Taiji Circle movement. In the same manner, in the Wing Chun lineages of Fung, Cho, Yuen and others, there is a common Sao Kuen/Sik (Fist or Section Closing Sequence), often referred to as Lop Sao, which is also popular in most southern martial art traditions. Wing Chun calls it the Taiji Circle, which is “O”-shape and an older, symbolic term for the line the fingers follow when performing the action. Another aspect of Emei is the Inch Silk Worm Finger, which functions like Wing Chun’s Darting Finger method. The actual Darting Finger motion itself is common to numerous Southern Fist traditions, and is even called by the same name in arts such as Southern Mantis.

Finally, Emei’s Tiger Walking sets have a first section called 8 Methods Under the Foot, which is similar to Wing Chun’s 8 leg methods or 8 kicks. Wing Chun masters have said it is composed of 12 Ways and 8 Methods, same description that Emei uses as well. Perhaps this Emei Snake was fused with the Fukien White Crane of Fang Chi Niang’s Five Plum footwork to create the Siu Lin Tao? Siu Lin Tao and its Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma are different and distinct from other Fukien arts. Instead, other Fukien arts and offshoots preserve the San Chin (3 battles)/ Su Men (4 gates) root (which is seen in the Hakka martial arts that were influenced by Tai Tzu Quan).

-------------------------------------

During the early Qing era, many monks had traveled to Emei mountain and learned the martial arts and neigongs taught there. They eventually reached the Fujian temples and brought this internal martial arts influence there. The tiger based neigongs from Emei were said to have been brought to Fujian by Bak Mei. Today the Bak Mei style is a dragon and tiger based martial art.

(In 1227 A.D., a monk traveled to the top of Mt Emei, one of China’s Four Holy Mountains. This monk trained and meditated on Emei and, when he reached enlightenment, took the name Bai Yun (White Cloud). Grandmaster Bai Yun wrote all his sacred knowledge, including his system designed to cultivate health and treat illness while striving to attain enlightenment, in a book called The Emei Treasured Lotus Cannon which is currently being held in a Beijing Museum. Bai Yun’s art consists of The Twelve Ways, The Six Tiger Steps (or Tiger Walking), Meditations, Healing Sounds, Medicine, Weapons, etc. Emei neigong emphasizes healing, internal self-cultivation of Qi (energy), and the cleansing of one's heart so that one's true nature and latent abilities can emerge. In the Emei system, the 12 Zhuang - Ways (or Paths), commonly known as 12 posts, are the Body Cultivation. These are specific short sets designed to un-lock and holistically link the body while keeping it healthy and strong. They are similar to India’s Yogic practices but of Chinese origin. In the Emei system it is the Snake that binds the 12 Zhuang and Emei Art together. According to the 12th generation Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong, the Mother of the 12 Ways is the Tian Zhuang (Heaven Post). According to Fu Wei Zhong: “Tian Za Zhuang is to Emei just as San Ti Shi is to Xing Yi”. The last Zhuang in the Emei art, Mei Za Zhuang, is based on Meditation practice, one of four different types of meditations that the Emei practitioner studies at that level. The Emei 6 sets of Tiger Walking exercises are the 12 Ways for the Lower Half and uniting the Upper and Lower Half. Emei Weaponry comes in three forms: Sword, Short Blade (Dagger) and Hand Spike, with the long weapons not being practical in the Emei dense and mountainous terrain.)

[ittokaos]

It would and does. Thanks for the history lesson. Always a pleasure, Sal.

BTW, any info on when Meir Shahar's book is coming out?

[Yum Cha]

Wind Fire Daoist - is that a sniff of Doo Wai?

Listen to Shaolin Master, there are few people as clued in as he is.

Itto, if you have to ask what those videos prove, than its obvious you need a better understanding of Pak Mei. Its all right there in front of you, if you know what you're looking for. That's why these debates are so tragic.

For example, if you think futsan pak mei is different than CLC pak mei, than why do they do some of the forms created by CLC?

If you know what the principles taught to CLC by the monks were, why are they absent in some of the other lineages that claim to come from the same monks?

Universal law of the universe, 2+2 always equal 4.

The stories swirl, propogate, morph and regenerate, but the hand is the hand, you have it, or you don't, and it doesn't really matter where you got it, or the details of the backstory. Buyer beware.

[ittokaos]

First off, I was stating what I learned during my reasearch into the styles. This includes interviews, books,websites, and oral history. Whether or not I know true Bak Mei(or whatever) is not the arguement here. There is no arguement. Just statements that have caused others to go on the defensive. For that I apologize.

Now in regards to the Doo Wai thing, I am pretty sure that he is a White Tiger sifu. The wind fire taoist (Fung Fou Dao Yan ) is from who our lines differ and by only looking at Cheung Lai Chuen as the end all be all in bak mei is(in my opinion) foolish. Now, if one had read the above statements you would have seen that I have stated that although the styles differ, they have many similarites. The forms being just one similarity. In CLC Bak Mei there are many different forms(way more than in Fushan Bak Mei) and while some are similar, there are those that are very different and only seem to appear in the hakka styles that CLC is known to be a practitioner of.

That right there leads me(as well as many others) to believe that these were added at a later date and not taught to CLC by the monk who originally taught him Bak Mei. Now having said that, couldn't one say that CLC Bak Mei would be considered a traditional style of Bak Mei and possibly differs somewhat when compared to the other styles? If so, then my point has been proven. Obviously it's all still Bak Mei just the styles differ. Fushan has more of an Old School taoist flavor where as CLC is an amalgamation of the former and the styles that CLC was a pracitioner of. The core would still be there.

Obviously, in the end it's all about the skill of the person and not where his/her style came from. Never once did I say that CLC was a bad style or a fake style. I have stated though, is that I love all Bak Mei regardless of the flavor.

In regards to the videos, they prove nothing more than they are videos of the style. If the attempt was to prove that Fushan Bak Mei came from CLC, it has failed. To summarize, just b/c CLC said it first doesn't mean that he was right. All that being first rpoves is that you are first. Missinfo Does indeed spread (look at wing chun) but it is not the miss info regarding fushan bak mei that is spread the world over.

I hope this helps,

WF

[mantis108]

You know I was mistaken about Wind Fire Hall before but at least I would admit that I didn't have all the facts straight. But seeing all these so-called researches and such, I am like reading Alice in Lalaland instead. Now I miss Alice in Wonderland. :eek:

2+2=10, I am telling you, Yum Cha you couldn't have been more wrong! :D

Mantis108

[Yum Cha]

OK Mantis,

You're right, Doo Wai is all about Fun Do Duk, not Fung Fou Dao Yan, fair enough. Its all Chinese to me, that's why I'm such a poor kung fu scholar.

Feel free to correct me further if I'm wrong. I'm always hungry for a feed of good info.



Itto, lets just examine some what you said,

Yes, CLC Pak Mei incorporates other styles as well, the preperation phases to learn the "Real" Pak Mei. He created those forms from his past knowledge. This is pretty common knowledge, to those of us who do practice the art.

Concerning Futsan Pak Mei, they do some of those "prepatory" forms created by CLC. Right there in the videos posted by Shaolin Master.

As such a well read researcher, I'm simply asking you to explain why.

I'm not putting myself forward as the expert - you are.

I'm only pointing out factual and logical inequalities and asking you for your explanation.

Surely, you don't expect a free pass to authority in your attempts to codify the history of an art you don't train and don't understand, but you "love"?

What were you saying about foolish?

[Shaolin Master]

Futsan Bakmei is from two Masters Master Liu Shaoliang [Lau Siuleung] and Qiu Taisheng (PS: Students of early student of CLC, no other than Master Xia Hanxiong).

白眉拳谱系
　　一代　峨眉山白眉上人 Emei Bakmei Daoist
　　二代　广慧禅师 Kwong Wai Monk
　　三代　竺法云道长 Juk Fawan Daoist
　　四代　张礼泉(当时与龙形拳传人林耀桂号称“东江二虎”、曾当过孙中山先生侍卫) Cheung Lai Chun
　　五代　夏汉雄 [Xia Hanxiong] Ha Honhong
　　六代　仇乌(仇太生叔父) [Qiu Wu] Sao Wu
　　七代　仇太生、刘少良　[Qiu Taisheng and Liu Shaoliang) Sau Taisan & Liu Siuleung
　　八代　仇德基(仇太生之子) [Qiu Deji and Liu Weiji] Sau Dakgei & Lau Waigei

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong

[ittokaos]

Allow me to first begin by apologizing. It seems as though there are those of you who feel as if I have been coming across as if I were an expert. I am not. I don't remember saying that I was but if there has been misscommunication, I apologize.

What I have been saying was that I have been researching Bak Mei for the past year or so(probably longer) and during my research this is what I have found. Nothing More. Never once did I say that what my research has found is absolute fact. I know that more than one time in this post I have stated that several of my conclusions are speculation.

Research and fact are on opposite ends of the reality spectrum. Allow me to make the following example: I said ---I have eaten apples and oranges and I prefer oranges to apples. The majority of the world loves apples more and think that apples came before oranges and that oranges came from an apple tree. I go on to say that my research say that oranges have their own tree and have it's own specific flavor to it. I also say that they are both fruit and taste good so it doesn't really matter b/c I love them both. I currently am an eater of oranges and I think that the citrus is very good.

You think I said(i suppose)---Oranges are way better than apples because apples are fake and they taste horrible. I am an expert of fruit and I am right and I know everything there is about fruit and apples aren't even a fruit, they are a vegetable and vegetables are gross.

I honestly don't know why everyone here is so defensive. If I am wrong then I am wrong. I don't know everything but I don't believe everything that people tell me either. Just because I was told something first doesn't mean that they are right. As I have stated B4 I will be going to go visit Sifu Chong (2nd wk in Aug) to see what he knows about our lineage. From what I know thus far, I don't believe that our lineage came from CLC. I may be wrong but untill I find out for myself I will continue to believe that they run paralell. In the future, if I may ask a favor, please try to take everything said on this forum with a grain of salt. I do and it has stopped me from getting too upset about the idiocy that is spouted from the fingertips of these posters.

I am just a guy who does Bak Mei and loves it. I am researching for my own purposes and for my book and I plan on using both styles in the book(it's a comic). I hope to be true to the styles and hence the constant research. I never meant to offend or to come across as something that I am not.

[Yum Cha]

Shaolin Master, thanks for stepping forward, and hopefully putting the whole thing to rest. This was my understanding as well, I'm glad you confirmed it.

Itto,
I appreciate that you are trying to do the right thing, and when you look at it closely, you'll see that some of us are likewise, just trying to do the right thing by you.

Its not an apples and oranges thing. Apples and oranges, understanding the difference and appreciating the flavour of each is schoolyard fundamental to anybody with even the least amount of understanding of the wonderful variety of life.

The issue is people standing up and saying, this Apple is not an apple, its is an Orange. Than posturing with defensive anger, what are you - Orange hater to dare argue?!

Not at all. Its just the reality, an apple is an apple, an orange is an orange, and there is great value to each in their own right.

[ittokaos]

Shaolin Master, while I still don't agree with your lineage chart (b/c mine is different and I can't read yours) I must thank you for posting that list of youtube vids. I didn't get around to seeing them b4 and therefore forgot to thank you. I was too busy trying to figure out what you were trying to prove to me with them. I came to the conclusion that you just wanted to show me some bak mei vids and that's cool by me. Thanks again!

[tsefreeflow]

Futsan Bakmei is from two Masters Master Liu Shaoliang [Lau Siuleung] and Qiu Taisheng (PS: Students of early student of CLC, no other than Master Xia Hanxiong).

Everyone in Futsan is friendly, take a trip :-) Please call them to confirm, no one in Futsan has some Wind Fire water and Earth Daoist Story....



Well take the trip yourself Mr. Master and talk to the elders yourself. You will find this link if you look even ever so slightly. Of course like anything you can find someone to say anything and claim everything. Do you search and find Sifu Li and have him introduce you to all of his SiHings and DiSiHings (Lao Xiu Luang's elder students). He will tell you himself that the history is sketchy as he had never cared about the history only wanting to train. The only history mentioned was to Xiu Fo Dao Yan and this is not his true name and as far as I know noone knows it. The fact that its unclear makes it no more fake than the only inheritor CLC crap you hear. What it comes down to is you are doing what you know and if it works then great. I too can give 2 ****s about history thins, the this is the truth that. I train hard from a man who has proved the system before me, and I am proving the system now. This sounds liek the stupid only true Wing Chun speech of history.
Qiu Taisheng was in Futshan before Lau Xiu Luang, but Lau Xiu Luang is the one who made it popular.

[Shaolin Master]

Hi All,

Please find Master Qiu performing Foshan Baimei Jiubutui (9 Step Push):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzzR1maRGkc

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Yum Cha]

Thanks for the vid SM. Did you shoot it while you were living in Futsan?

Tsefreeflow, my good friend, glad to see you back after you're last foray onto this forum. Perhaps we can revive that thread just to set your credentials?

So, what's the story, is the lineage now "sketchy" or do you still believe it is a non-clc lineage?

Oh, and by the way, what's all this about CLC Crap? Are you saying that your Di Si Gung is crap? Or are you just saying that his disciples are crap? Or are you just having a little tanty because you got exposed for twisting the truth told to you by your master to try and build your McKwoon reputation?

I mean, you've already rubbished the skill and reputation of your first Master, Eddit Chong, and you claim that Sifu Luo is not a real lineage holder, a privelige reserved for you and your Dad.

You don't have a clue.

[tsefreeflow]

So, what's the story, is the lineage now "sketchy" or do you still believe it is a non-clc lineage?

Oh, and by the way, what's all this about CLC Crap? Are you saying that your Di Si Gung is crap? Or are you just saying that his disciples are crap? Or are you just having a little tanty because you got exposed for twisting the truth told to you by your master to try and build your McKwoon reputation?


Here we go again. Actually you dont have a clue, but you already know and prove that. But thats ok, I sleep fine. The actual lineage has always been sketchy for the reasons I had posted. There was never any mention of CLC from Lau Xiu Luang, Only Xiu Fo Dao Yan, and they were of the same generation. There are all kinds of Bak Mei in Foshan, not just Foshan Bak Mei. GuangZhou is very close and they again are very different. But even Foshan Bak Mei has different practicioners looking and doing things differently, same as CLC lines. Lau Xiu Luang's son is there too, you talk to him? Him and Sifu dont really see eye to eye, but he knows the truth. As for the truth, none of you have even remotly "exposed" the truth, because you tainted yourselves, thinking you are know it alls. If someone goes and talks with Sifu Li, and meets all of his classmates, and discusses it, then researches it, the truth will be known. But you go to Foshan and find your own crap to follow your beliefs, and pass it off like its suppose to mean something to me or anyone, the information will never be settled. If your Ok with that, then so am I. I dont care if any of you ever get at the true information, and you probably wont because your too afraid to go to Sifu himself and listen to him and meet his classmates. Do your proper research and then come to me with this baby talk. Until then, let the soaps continue.


I mean, you've already rubbished the skill and reputation of your first Master, Eddit Chong, and you claim that Sifu Luo is not a real lineage holder, a privelige reserved for you and your Dad.
You don't have a clue.

Its funny you all get ass hurt over the truths I have stated, but yet you keep bringing them up like it has not be discussed many times. You all know about chong, and if you dont, and care that much go see him and find out. Luo? who cares, I dont. I just know he is not aligned under Sigung. If he learned from someone else, whoopidy frickin doo. He can make it work like everyone says, great. If it works for him, great. Thats all anyone can ask (well not you folks, because you have to prove something about yourselves by dismissing everything but you and what you know and hear from your idols). Its like High School with you people. One talks about someone and one responds. words are spoken, and yet, noone is ever man enough to step up to the plate. Well even in high school something eventually gets settled, but not with you people. You just keep talking and never listen or do anything. I like it, its comical.
Your statement quoted above, shows really how much of an idiot you really are :D. I have rubbished nothing or noone, and nothing is reserved for me or my father. If you could actually read, then you would know that I have said that as of that posting I am the only disciple of Sifu, and though others have trained with Sifu, noone else here in the US propagates the system correctly as tought by Sifu. This is Sifu's words. If that changes I would happily accnowledge that. Now others have went to Sifu recently, asking me if they could and he welcomed them graciously. I have nothing to hide from anyone. This last one who went to Sifu, after he came back he came to visit with me and train some. He has seen I have changed nothing. What I do is exactly what Sifu does (only not as good :) ). I have put Sifu on video and put him out there. You can compare that to those who state they have trained under him and are teaching what he teaches. But its obvious they lost something in translation or something. Anyway, I'm done babbling for the kids on this forum. I sit back and enjoy your replies.
Good day all

[Yum Cha]

Itto,
Perhaps you can understand now why this thread has gone how it has gone.

This guy TSC BS Flow has been propogating the word that he and his dad are the only true disciples of a special secret brand of Pak Mei coming from the "Original" source, and duping who knows how many poor kids into parting with their hard earned for lessons from buck novices and explaining the poor quality of their teaching away with the excuse, oh, its a totally different branch.

This is insulting to not only all the legitimate Futsan Players, but to the Great Grand Master and the whole pai. Its not a lineage war, like the Wing chun or the CLF group, its just one kid trying to big note his novice skills into a money making operation.

Now, when confronted with the truth, he carries on like a spoiled child, talks about "sketchy or confusing" information and says it doesn't really matter.

I think my job here is done.



Here we go again. Actually you dont have a clue, but you already know and prove that. But thats ok, I sleep fine. The actual lineage has always been sketchy for the reasons I had posted. There was never any mention of CLC from Lau Xiu Luang, Only Xiu Fo Dao Yan, and they were of the same generation. There are all kinds of Bak Mei in Foshan, not just Foshan Bak Mei. GuangZhou is very close and they again are very different. But even Foshan Bak Mei has different practicioners looking and doing things differently, same as CLC lines. Lau Xiu Luang's son is there too, you talk to him? Him and Sifu dont really see eye to eye, but he knows the truth. As for the truth, none of you have even remotly "exposed" the truth, because you tainted yourselves, thinking you are know it alls. If someone goes and talks with Sifu Li, and meets all of his classmates, and discusses it, then researches it, the truth will be known. But you go to Foshan and find your own crap to follow your beliefs, and pass it off like its suppose to mean something to me or anyone, the information will never be settled. If your Ok with that, then so am I. I dont care if any of you ever get at the true information, and you probably wont because your too afraid to go to Sifu himself and listen to him and meet his classmates. Do your proper research and then come to me with this baby talk. Until then, let the soaps continue.



Its funny you all get ass hurt over the truths I have stated, but yet you keep bringing them up like it has not be discussed many times. You all know about chong, and if you dont, and care that much go see him and find out. Luo? who cares, I dont. I just know he is not aligned under Sigung. If he learned from someone else, whoopidy frickin doo. He can make it work like everyone says, great. If it works for him, great. Thats all anyone can ask (well not you folks, because you have to prove something about yourselves by dismissing everything but you and what you know and hear from your idols). Its like High School with you people. One talks about someone and one responds. words are spoken, and yet, noone is ever man enough to step up to the plate. Well even in high school something eventually gets settled, but not with you people. You just keep talking and never listen or do anything. I like it, its comical.
Your statement quoted above, shows really how much of an idiot you really are :D. I have rubbished nothing or noone, and nothing is reserved for me or my father. If you could actually read, then you would know that I have said that as of that posting I am the only disciple of Sifu, and though others have trained with Sifu, noone else here in the US propagates the system correctly as tought by Sifu. This is Sifu's words. If that changes I would happily accnowledge that. Now others have went to Sifu recently, asking me if they could and he welcomed them graciously. I have nothing to hide from anyone. This last one who went to Sifu, after he came back he came to visit with me and train some. He has seen I have changed nothing. What I do is exactly what Sifu does (only not as good :) ). I have put Sifu on video and put him out there. You can compare that to those who state they have trained under him and are teaching what he teaches. But its obvious they lost something in translation or something. Anyway, I'm done babbling for the kids on this forum. I sit back and enjoy your replies.
Good day all

[tsefreeflow]

Dude you are so stupid I am surprised you can tie your shoes in the morning, but you probably dont, just sit at your computer with your fat ass and play interfu! Hahahaha :p Your a joke not only to your parents but to humans in general ;)


Itto,
Perhaps you can understand now why this thread has gone how it has gone.

This guy TSC BS Flow has been propogating the word that he and his dad are the only true disciples of a special secret brand of Pak Mei coming from the "Original" source, and duping who knows how many poor kids into parting with their hard earned for lessons from buck novices and explaining the poor quality of their teaching away with the excuse, oh, its a totally different branch.

This is insulting to not only all the legitimate Futsan Players, but to the Great Grand Master and the whole pai. Its not a lineage war, like the Wing chun or the CLF group, its just one kid trying to big note his novice skills into a money making operation.

Now, when confronted with the truth, he carries on like a spoiled child, talks about "sketchy or confusing" information and says it doesn't really matter.

I think my job here is done.

[Yum Cha]

Gee, you sound upset...


Dude you are so stupid I am surprised you can tie your shoes in the morning, but you probably dont, just sit at your computer with your fat ass and play interfu! Hahahaha :p Your a joke not only to your parents but to humans in general ;)