OT: buddhism question about 'attachment' ?

[Akuma]

I’ve read a few books by the Dalai Lama and one of the big concepts he talks about is this idea of ‘attachment’ and how one should avoid it.

I understood all of his examples of why attachment is bad and how it brings suffering but what I don’t understand is how this concept fits into the big picture of living ones life.

For example, how does attachment fit in with a persons goal setting? If one is not attached to their goals, then how can they hope to achieve them?

[Braden]

Not being attached doesn't mean not caring.

[Akuma]

Originally posted by Braden
Not being attached doesn't mean not caring.

Yeah that's true. So how would one mentally think about goal setting if one wants to maintain the non-attatchment frame of mind?

In other words, if one is not attached to achieving their goals and that doen't mean they don't care about it, how does a person visualise these goals in their mind?

I'm just confused about how to apply this concept in my daily life. I'm finding it difficult becuase it's as though there are all these things I want to achieve and yet at the same time I feel guilty because I'm so attached to all this personal goal striving.

Arrrgh, I obviously don't understand this concept properly :(

[Braden]

"I feel guilty because I'm so attached to all this personal goal striving."

Sounds like you understand it. :)

[Akuma]

Originally posted by Braden
"I feel guilty because I'm so attached to all this personal goal striving."

Sounds like you understand it. :)

lol...but that can't be it, otherwise it's a catch 22 :|

[Internal Boxer]

Hmmm when buddhists refer to attachment, you may be looking at the finger pointing to the moon rather than the moon.

Aspirations and goals are fine, but be honest with yourself do you think about those goals often?? if you do spend time thinking about them your mind is not in the here and now but always thinking about the future, thats why they teach focusing on your breathing this will bring the the mind to what is happening now, there is no future this is merely a construct of the mind, there is no point dwelling in the past either, be mindful of the present moment.

When Buddha held a flower and looked at it in front of his students, all his students were confused they started thinking about what could be meant by his actions, only one student smiled back at buddha.

Buddha was just enjoying the beauty of the flower in that moment, and thats all there was to it. - simple!!

[TkdWarrior]

if one is not attached to achieving their goals and that doen't mean they don't care about it, how does a person visualise these goals in their mind?
this is tricky situation... understand that as a person wat maximum u can do is Act(ie for achieveing goals) but the result is not in ur control so u shouldn't be attached to it..if attached u'll get hurt when u can't achive it...
now the problems starts when this attachment thing becomes attachment to itself...
"Attachment to Not attach should also be avoided"

-TkdWarrior-

[Ryu]

Take an objective look. Positive goals, positive actions, equal positive lives, positive results. There is nothing wrong with wanting to achieve goals. There's nothing wrong with having a strong drive to achieve these. Don't think that in order to be an "enlightened" person, one has to live day by day without any human emotion, anger, love, sadness, joy, fear. It's all part of the human experience. What you want to avoid is being controlled by these things, as well as being controlled by your goals and desires. If you use the energy you have in accomplishing your goals in order to focus on healthy career choices, understand yourself better, look forward to each day, make moral decisions, etc. Then you've got a lot of positive things going for you.
If you let the energy you have for your goals define who you are, control every emotion in your body, etc. You will snap like a twig the first time something screws up in your goal setting.
To be "non-attatched" means you are free to continue on. If a barrier comes up in front of you, you don't just fall over dead.

ALL the philosophies that talk about "non-attatchment" "bending like a pliable spring" "being one with change" etc. They are all talking about the understanding of "when one door closes, another opens." You don't "bend" so that you go the opposite direction. You "bend"so that you can spring back even more powerful than before.

The greatest injustice to these philosophies, be they Asian or Western is to think they advocate a philosophy of "not caring."

A philosophy of "not caring." is a very weak and negative one.

To care is to be human. :)

Ryu

[Arhat of Fury]

godd question Akuma,
Nice post Ryu, Ive had the same questions in my readings.
Thanks for clarifying.

AOF

[[Censored]]

For example, how does attachment fit in with a persons goal setting? If one is not attached to their goals, then how can they hope to achieve them?

You know that joke about I.T. circa '99? "Work, friends, sleep: choose 2." It was funny because it was true. If you don't like the rules, then you get out of the game. ;)

[diego]

Originally posted by Akuma


Yeah that's true. So how would one mentally think about goal setting if one wants to maintain the non-attatchment frame of mind?

by bieng realistic about it. i think from a bhuddists perspect the only problems that may arise when making goals, is unrealistic wanting.

such as teens who comit suicide because they are ugly and picked on...its not realistic you will be a model, wich is why you get picked on as your ugly...so fuc'kem find another path...start dissing yourself to make peeps laugh and to draw attention away from your ugly face so they wont hit it anymore.

so, i think a bhuddist would calculate the realistic variances of wich paths he could take, and then he would pick one...but thier would be no attitude of uneccassary/unrealistic wanting!.:)

[David Jamieson]

What are keeping goals but attachment?
What is the need to keep goals but attachment?

You could play your life in a natural flow without goals. Because you would release your attachment (or "need" in this example) to achieve a pre-governed path of your own creation (your set goals).

Now, throw in the four noble truths and the eight fold path, add flour, eggs and bake for one epiphany.

Goals are as illusory as attachment. The lessons in attachment teach us to deal with a sense of loss as well. Because we attach ourselves to others instead of pure love , we possess them as "our" friend, or "my" friend, or "my" mother, father, brother, sister, uncle, etc, etc. Because of our attachment to these people we suffer when they are gone from us.

We suffer by feeling anger, or we suffer by feeling sorrow. if we truly love them (which in many ways we do) we would be happy at their passing according to the cycle of things.
Anger and Sorrow are negative emotions that drain us.
Attachment brings these emotions on all to often.

But life is not black and white and the sutras most certainly make allowances for this trait of the current human.

On the other hand, it is Buddhism's "Goal" that humans should become enlightened. :)

cheers

[desertwingchun2]

When speaking of Buddhism one must be aware of the two main sects of Buddhism. Mahayana and Theraveda schools have a different approach to enlightenment. The practice of addressing the human condition is unique to each school. Therefore, non-attachment would be looked upon in a variety of ways depending on the road one travels.

"When the six are untied the one is gone also"

just a thought,
David

[eulerfan]

Think about this:

Buddhist monks spend hours creating these beautiful, intricate mandalas out of sand with elaborate, painstaking detail. When they are finished, they blow the sand away.

It's great to have goals but impermanence is law. Say your goal is to become a computer programmer. What if, once you have acheived the necessary training, something new is invented making computers completely obsolete? The more attached you were to that goal, the worse that will feel.

So, try not to be too attached to them.

Complete non attachment is what you do if you are trying to become enlightened. And it is a LOOOOOOOONG term goal. If you are trying to become enlightened, don't ask for Buddhist advice on a KF board. Give up all of your posessions and become a mendicant.

If not, just try not to be too attached and pay attention to what happens when you do become too attached to things. Learn and grow and try.

You don't have to do it all in one lifetime. ;)

[Akuma]

Hi folks, thanks for the responses. I'm still thinking about them actually.

I also posted this question on a Buddhism news group and this is how two people responded.



Goals are a means to and end.
If you are attached to your goal then you derive self worth out of reaching
the goals.

Example: I gained 7 pounds while working in Wisconsin.
My goal is to lose 10.

I am eating better and exercising to reach my goal. When I reach my goal my
sense of accomplishment will be in taking better care of my body, feeling
healthier, etc.

If I do not reach my goal, I do not feel ugly, impotent or label myself a
failure. I have not attached myself to my goal.

Like many concepts, this is one of the harder once. It's kind of like
trying to reach peaceful meditation. The harder you try for it, the further
away it gets.


This was the other response



You can work to achieve a goal without having an emotional attachment to
the outcome. That's the point, enjoy the process, don't strive for an
outcome. To pick up on Tenzo's weight loss example... By striving to
loose 10 lbs by a certain date, you are setting yourself for sadness. If
you don't reach the goal, then you are sad because of your failure, if
you do reach the goal, then you are left with an empty "what now"
feeling (or worse, a greedy feeling of conceit.) Being overweight means
you aren't eating right, instead of striving to loose weight, learn to
enjoy eating healthy and don't attach so much emotional significance to
your exact weight...



What's interesting about this thread and the various posts is that they all have a different spin as to what attachment is and how one ought to apply it. I'm still not totally convinced I understand it.

I am seeing a clash between the mental faculties required to remain un-attached, and to achieve goals.

For example, in order to achieve a goal one has to visualise the goal vividly. From that point foward it is helpful to plan out a few stages of it and carry it out, reminding oneself of the goal constantly. In doing this, the sub-conscious is allowed to work through various stimuli (which ever forms) and direct the decision making processes of the brain towards solutions for solving the goal.

Most of this theory I speak of is from 'Psycho Cybernetics'. Basically Maltz says that we feed the mind a goal and we visualise in detail how it feels to acheive the goal etc. That allows one to cement the reasons for attaining the goal and consequently providing the necessary motiviation to achieve it. The subconscious or goal striving mechanism, as he calls it, finds ways to get past obstacles and ultimately achieve the visualised goal.

This buddhist philosophy of attachment seems to be contradictary in terms of the type of frame of mind one must place themselves into, in order to effectively achieve said goal.

So, after thinking about Maltz says, it seems to me that attachment is everything if one is to effectively achieve ones goals and if that is then the case, it basically means that setting goals and achieving them is not the way for a buddhist?

Am I missing something here?--I must be : /

[diego]

i think you may be seeing attachment as basic putting your all into it, wheras a bhuddist practising mastery of the perfections, goals would be a great thing, as one could test how strong thier peace of mind is within the confrontation of external stimuli....my suicide teen example however crude, i feel displayed the attitude to be achieved. Have you known someone not to good looking, and they will make jokes about themself so people will laugh, and by laughing they have no time to make up jokes about the ugly person.

i imagine thier is great strength and peace of mind within one who could do that "to muster the courage to disgrace yourself, for the betterment of all, as once they started laughing they realize they were wrong for hating you on face-value, and since your funny they see you have potential and you all make new friends...wheras one who doesnt have this strength, would sadly become reclusive and possibbly comit suicide."

:) i'm going to finish dropping my opinions tommorrow on this, after i get some sleep and give it some thought "very interesting question:)."

for a bhuddist it wouldnt be the base attachment of attaching/placing all your awareness on one goal, as the end isnt the means its the journey, so he would have a sence of non-concern with whatever goal he is experiancing, and not achieving...IMO the key word here is "Experiance" and not achievement:)


****, i might not even have to add anything tommorrow, i think that's it!.

[Akuma]

i think you may be seeing attachment as basic putting your all into it, wheras a bhuddist practising mastery of the perfections, goals would be a great thing, as one could test how strong thier peace of mind is within the confrontation of external stimuli....my suicide teen example however crude, i feel displayed the attitude to be achieved. Have you known someone not to good looking, and they will make jokes about themself so people will laugh, and by laughing they have no time to make up jokes about the ugly person.

Ok I think I understand what you're trying to say here. You're saying that a Buddhist would select goals that are realistic because it gives a type of safety barrier from disappointment should one not achieve their goal.

You gave the example of a person who wasn't too attractive, and stating that it would be unreasonable for them to select a goal for being a model (for example) because of how unreasonable and unlikely it is to change ones appearance??

The thing I don’t understand about this is that it assumes attachment is a necessary ingredient for achieving a goal? Is that something you agree with?

You also seem to indicate that the mind set of the Buddhist practitioner is that of a person who makes it his goal to deal with the adversity more so than to concentrate on the outcome of the goal.

So would it be reasonable to say that whilst a degree of attachment is required in achieving any goal, it is somewhat limited in the sense that the Buddhist is concentrating on solving the problems in the ‘present’ rather than worrying about the outcome? In not worrying about the outcome it reduces stress. This makes sense to me but I always thought that aaaahhhhh…I was going to say I always thought that one would be constantly reminding oneself of the desired outcome as a means for motivation.


i imagine thier is great strength and peace of mind within one who could do that "to muster the courage to disgrace yourself, for the betterment of all, as once they started laughing they realize they were wrong for hating you on face-value, and since your funny they see you have potential and you all make new friends...wheras one who doesnt have this strength, would sadly become reclusive and possibbly comit suicide."

:) i'm going to finish dropping my opinions tommorrow on this, after i get some sleep and give it some thought "very interesting question:)."


Yeah because they have such amazing patience and tolerance for people, it acts like a type of shield that protects them from hurtful comments.



for a bhuddist it wouldnt be the base attachment of attaching/placing all your awareness on one goal, as the end isnt the means its the journey, so he would have a sence of non-concern with whatever goal he is experiancing, and not achieving...IMO the key word here is "Experiance" and not achievement:)

****, i might not even have to add anything tommorrow, i think that's it!.


Yeah I sorta understand what's been said there but I'm still deciding if that's is the best way or it is a practical way of thinking about goals... : /

[Akuma]

Originally posted by Internal Boxer


Hmmm when buddhists refer to attachment, you may be looking at the finger pointing to the moon rather than the moon.

Aspirations and goals are fine, but be honest with yourself do you think about those goals often?? if you do spend time thinking about them your mind is not in the here and now but always thinking about the future, thats why they teach focusing on your breathing this will bring the the mind to what is happening now, there is no future this is merely a construct of the mind, there is no point dwelling in the past either, be mindful of the present moment.


I think I understand what you’re saying about not being in the present and you’re quite correct. At that instant when one is contemplating how achieving such a goal is good and worthy, his thoughts are not in the present. However, is that not a necessary process for maintaining motivation towards ones goals? Don’t you have to ‘conceive’ (in your mind) it in order to ‘achieve’ it and remind yourself of what you’re tyring to achieve and why?

In having to remind yourself, isn't that a form of 'attachment'?

The point you make about concentrating on the present is a good one and in the book ‘psycho cybernetics’, Maxwell Maltz, states that concentrating on the present is an important factor in achieving ones goals. He says that one should think of the goal, and think of why achieving such a goal is desirable but then concentrate only on the present and let ones goal striving mechanism (sub-conscious) do the rest.

I guess that also assumes that one has to continually remind himself of what he's trying to achieve in order to stay motivated and then switch completely on the present.



When Buddha held a flower and looked at it in front of his students, all his students were confused they started thinking about what could be meant by his actions, only one student smiled back at buddha.

Buddha was just enjoying the beauty of the flower in that moment, and thats all there was to it. - simple!!

I really like that story :)

[Akuma]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior

this is tricky situation... understand that as a person wat maximum u can do is Act(ie for achieveing goals) but the result is not in ur control so u shouldn't be attached to it..if attached u'll get hurt when u can't achive it...
now the problems starts when this attachment thing becomes attachment to itself...
"Attachment to Not attach should also be avoided"

-TkdWarrior-

I think I see the point you’re tyring to make here. You're saying that because the result isn't really something you can be sure of, you should avoid attachment in order to prevent oneself from getting hurt?

I can understand that point of view but I'm not sure it is all that realistic. Do you think that by limiting the degree of attachment you have towards your goals, you are also limiting the ways in which you can achieve them?

If you were so attached to a achieving a goal, wouldn’t you be more inclined to put in a larger amount of effort into achieving your goals as opposed to a person who doesn’t have as much attachment? In putting in a larger amount of effort towards achieving ones goals I believe that creates more opportunities for success.

[TkdWarrior]

i hear u akuma...
No when u r not attached with ur goal then it gives u more chances of attaining...
for ex.
it's not easy to describe in terms of Materialistic goals however i'll try...
let's say u didn't achieve ur goal n u think u r not even close/near to attaining it... u were supposed to attain in specific amount of time otherwise u'll loose(money or face or watever) so if u r not attached with it, it'll give u more chances to look into the matter(ie Goal) more rationally where u can dissect easily where u were wrong...
or u can say something like one of those Zen koans...
"u should be afraid of person who hav nothing to loose(or who r not afraid to die)" normal ppl(Non-MAists) doesn't understand this statement, may be call it foolish but to MAist it hav big value...

frankly i dunno if i said was making sense... it's much easier when u born into culture to understand it...
being an Indian it does help because from childhood i m hearing n following it... n bhudhism stems from Hinduism(Gautama Bhudha was Prince Siddarth)...
-TkdWarrior-

[Akuma]

Originally posted by Ryu
Take an objective look. Positive goals, positive actions, equal positive lives, positive results. There is nothing wrong with wanting to achieve goals. There's nothing wrong with having a strong drive to achieve these. Don't think that in order to be an "enlightened" person, one has to live day by day without any human emotion, anger, love, sadness, joy, fear. It's all part of the human experience. What you want to avoid is being controlled by these things, as well as being controlled by your goals and desires. If you use the energy you have in accomplishing your goals in order to focus on healthy career choices, understand yourself better, look forward to each day, make moral decisions, etc. Then you've got a lot of positive things going for you.
If you let the energy you have for your goals define who you are, control every emotion in your body, etc. You will snap like a twig the first time something screws up in your goal setting.
To be "non-attatched" means you are free to continue on. If a barrier comes up in front of you, you don't just fall over dead.

ALL the philosophies that talk about "non-attatchment" "bending like a pliable spring" "being one with change" etc. They are all talking about the understanding of "when one door closes, another opens." You don't "bend" so that you go the opposite direction. You "bend"so that you can spring back even more powerful than before.

The greatest injustice to these philosophies, be they Asian or Western is to think they advocate a philosophy of "not caring."

A philosophy of "not caring." is a very weak and negative one.

To care is to be human. :)

Ryu

I agree with everything you’ve said. It makes good sense to me but the thing is that with these philosophies, like for example the concept of ‘attachment’, I find it difficult to understand how it applies to every little situation. I think of these concepts as laws, that they must be applicable to every situation. The trick is to figure out how they apply and naturally that process can take a lot of time in contemplation.

One question though. You state that having goals are good as long as they are wholesome (positive) and serve some purpose of enhancing ones life, and then you go on to say that one should avoid being controlled by your goals and desires. This raises an important question for me and that is; if your goal or desire is something positive and wholesome, isn’t the act of striving towards that outcome intertwined with being controlled by the goal in a weird kind of way?

Let me clarify. In being so dedicated to achieving this positive outcome (wholesome), one is striving very hard to achieve said outcome. Isn’t by virtue of putting in maximum time and devotion effectively the same as having the goal direct your life because you're so driven towards achieving it?

I must say though that I do agree with everything you've said, only that I'm trying to understand just how important goals are in a persons life. For example, you say that it's bad to be controlled by ones goals. I can understand this on the surface but I always thought that in life, what makes it worthwhile is constantly working towards ones goals. Goals bring purpose to ones life.

I'm not saying one has to be selfish about achieving only their goals and that they apply only to him and his happiness but rather, one can have goals that apply to other people as well. For example, setting the goal of having a happy peaceful family, or to make a difference in other peoples lives who may not be as fortunate as we are.

So, what I'm saying is that every single moment of our lives could be transcribed into a goal of some sort. I hope this makes sense, lol :)

I'll respond tomorrow to others who have posted in the thread :) It sure is exercising my brain :cool:

I'd like to thank everyone who has responded to the thread. It has been most interesting and really has made me think more closely about these philosophies and concepts :)

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by guohuen
There is only one goal in Buddism. Enlightenment and immortality. Everything else would be considered attachment.
I'm not sure how immortality is considered a goal in Buddhism.
Can you elaborate on that?

It's my understanding that immortality isn't a factor because the
soul is, by default, undying.

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by Akuma
I agree with everything you’ve said. It makes good sense to me but the thing is that with these philosophies, like for example the concept of ‘attachment’, I find it difficult to understand how it applies to every little situation. I think of these concepts as laws, that they must be applicable to every situation. The trick is to figure out how they apply and naturally that process can take a lot of time in contemplation.
I think the trick is to not figure out how they apply. If we work
towards stilling our minds instead, we come to realize how
attachment works and doesn't work with regards to goals.
But this doesn't keep us from trying. :)


One question though. You state that having goals are good as long as they are wholesome (positive) and serve some purpose of enhancing ones life, and then you go on to say that one should avoid being controlled by your goals and desires. This raises an important question for me and that is; if your goal or desire is something positive and wholesome, isn’t the act of striving towards that outcome intertwined with being controlled by the goal in a weird kind of way?
I'm not sure I agree with that bit about goals ok as long as
their purposeful and wholesome. You can attach to even good
moral goals.


Let me clarify. In being so dedicated to achieving this positive outcome (wholesome), one is striving very hard to achieve said outcome. Isn’t by virtue of putting in maximum time and devotion effectively the same as having the goal direct your life because you're so driven towards achieving it?
Um... I'm gonna go with, "it depends" on this one. It's ok to work
on a goal whenever you have the time and ability to work on that
same goal. However, if you're in a situation where it's not possible
or undesirable to be working towards that goal, you shouldn't be
thinking about the goal or how you're ****ed because you're not
currently working towards that goal.


I must say though that I do agree with everything you've said, only that I'm trying to understand just how important goals are in a persons life. For example, you say that it's bad to be controlled by ones goals. I can understand this on the surface but I always thought that in life, what makes it worthwhile is constantly working towards ones goals. Goals bring purpose to ones life.
I'm not sure that Buddhism strives for purpose in life, as such.

Goals are good for setting standards for doing things, but they
should not be the ultimate purpose. If I set out to build myself a
lamp (for a myriad of reasons) my life doesn't lose purpose should
I fail to make a lamp (or at least a working lamp). If it doesn't
work, I can either try to figure out why it didn't work, or simply
move on to another project. The goal melts away into another
goal. There is no attachment to that first goal. I'm not depressed
or stomping around complaining that the lamp didn't work.


I'm not saying one has to be selfish about achieving only their goals and that they apply only to him and his happiness but rather, one can have goals that apply to other people as well. For example, setting the goal of having a happy peaceful family, or to make a difference in other peoples lives who may not be as fortunate as we are.
Again, I don't think it's the nature of the goal, so much as how
you treat it. If the goal is for yourself or for others, attachment
can still be an issue.

These are some tough questions and I doubt I'm all that close to
a correct answer. Buddhism is a wiley subject.

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by guohuen
I was refering to becoming a Buddi and no longer having to be reborn.
Those that don't have to be reborn still die, though, right?
Perhaps you could say that mortality is a goal. :)

[guohuen]

Well yeah!:D :p

[Ryu]

Hey Akuma, (the coversation between our two screen names is just to funny and coincidental to pass up) :D Let me get one thing out of the way first. I'm a man of many goals. And I have a great drive and desire to accomplish them. I think that if having "desire and drive" to accomplish goals was the wrong way to do things, we wouldn't have the ability to even be writing these words, in English, on a computer, with electricity, etc. you see where I'm going. :)

Originally posted by Akuma



One question though. You state that having goals are good as long as they are wholesome (positive) and serve some purpose of enhancing ones life, and then you go on to say that one should avoid being controlled by your goals and desires. This raises an important question for me and that is; if your goal or desire is something positive and wholesome, isn’t the act of striving towards that outcome intertwined with being controlled by the goal in a weird kind of way?

Well, the way that I see it is this: Striving and being controlled are two different things. In one sense I can see where you're coming from. If you're constantly striving, it can appear that what you're striving for is in control of your life. This isn't necessarily "control" in the sense you're thinking. I think to be able to put in effort to "strive" for anything means you have control over that thing. In some sense anyway.
A goal (even if it's positive) can certainly run you into negative aspects if the road to that goal cant "bend like a pliable spring." ;)
Now, I'm not saying that you have to compromise principles or anything to get there, but it's that ability to see another door opening when one closes. Being able to be flexible like that, to find the most effective ways to reach a certain goal gives you a vast amount of "control" on that goal. You also have the control necessary to cancel that goal if need be.....for whatever reason. But again, there's different paths to the same "truth" so to speak. So these goals, even though they are a part of you, do not define your self worth, how you feel about yourself, etc.

I have to be honest here. I'm not talking a lot on Buddhism at this moment. I'm kind of "JKDing" the philosophies together.

I'm trying to explain in a very functional way. There's lots of time to talk about the "deep amazing theories" of Buddhism, but my question is always "how's it working for you?"

If we're talking about living a fullfilling life with goals, positive desires, etc. I think it behooves us to talk about functionality. Too many people advocate "coasting" through life without understanding the functionality of human desires, goals, dreams, etc.
Anyone who says "goals and desires" are futile, or "unbuddhist" doesn't get it in my opinion. Someone who says "understand" your goals and desires, and how they relate to you, and you to them, is a step in the right direction. Because when it comes down to it. No goals, no desires, no dreams, equals no life. No human life anyway. No thinking life.



Originally posted by Akuma

So, what I'm saying is that every single moment of our lives could be transcribed into a goal of some sort. I hope this makes sense, lol :)

Makes sense to me.

Ryu

[diego]

Originally posted by diego
i think you may be seeing attachment as basic putting your all into it, wheras a bhuddist practising mastery of the perfections, goals would be a great thing, as one could test how strong thier peace of mind is within the confrontation of external stimuli....my suicide teen example however crude, i feel displayed the attitude to be achieved. Have you known someone not to good looking, and they will make jokes about themself so people will laugh, and by laughing they have no time to make up jokes about the ugly person.

i imagine thier is great strength and peace of mind within one who could do that "to muster the courage to disgrace yourself, for the betterment of all, as once they started laughing they realize they were wrong for hating you on face-value, and since your funny they see you have potential and you all make new friends...wheras one who doesnt have this strength, would sadly become reclusive and possibbly comit suicide."

:) i'm going to finish dropping my opinions tommorrow on this, after i get some sleep and give it some thought "very interesting question:)."

for a bhuddist it wouldnt be the base attachment of attaching/placing all your awareness on one goal, as the end isnt the means its the journey, so he would have a sence of non-concern with whatever goal he is experiancing, and not achieving...IMO the key word here is "Experiance" and not achievement:)


****, i might not even have to add anything tommorrow, i think that's it!.

so, building off what i just read in ryus last post: a bhuddist considers he is stuck in this life, so may aswell GET-PAST as much sufferring as possibble until he can be freed from this lifes inherent confusion.

now even guatama didnt just disappear "go and hide in a cave until his soul leaves his body" from the world after he became enlightened, he went out and taught.

ideally one would think to get away from sufferring a secluded cave would be ideal as long as you have food, as noone is around to bother you.

however, they believe in reincarnation, so thats a rediculous idea to hideout from the world, as you may just reincarnate back into it after you die.

now if you instead as guatama did, went out and preached about the perfections...the roll of the dice would state its highly likely you may reincarnate into a family who lives with the dharma...wich they wouldnt have got if you hid in a cave in your last life.

so thats why goals or imbedding the shoalin into dialy human endeavors from your level of mastery of the perfections would need to be from a mind/attitude as i mentioned about the ugly kid...not concerned, but just as you may reincarnate in hell, the kid only has three or four more options besides making the bullys laugh...tell a teacher...it only gets worse

go columbine...only gets worse


just take it...may become worse as you may go columbine or comit suicide...and thiers prolly a few more...but by dissing himself he moved PERFECTLY and in the end the situation was betterment for all, so it was inline with dharma.

so a bhuddist would set goals, only to master mans ways, so the next breed will have shoalin instead of taekwondo "no disrespect rogue:D." like the legend of shaolin the monks were taught a kungfu to keep thier vehicles gassed so they could better spread the dharma...then say a bhuddist would only seek to be a national basketball association champ...only to create shoalin-basketball...so when he dies, the kids who get into bball will have lessons on the bhuddist ways of dignified perfections, at thier summercamp.:cool:

Follow me?.

[joedoe]

My take on the whole attachment/goal thing - don't be so focused on your end goal that you become fixated and miss out on other things in life. Goals are good and you should make every effort to achieve them but not tot he detriment to the rest of your life. That is how I think non-attachment and goals fit together.

[Akuma]

Originally posted by Ryu
Hey Akuma, (the coversation between our two screen names is just to funny and coincidental to pass up) :D Let me get one thing out of the way first. I'm a man of many goals. And I have a great drive and desire to accomplish them. I think that if having "desire and drive" to accomplish goals was the wrong way to do things, we wouldn't have the ability to even be writing these words, in English, on a computer, with electricity, etc. you see where I'm going. :)


Well, the way that I see it is this: Striving and being controlled are two different things. In one sense I can see where you're coming from. If you're constantly striving, it can appear that what you're striving for is in control of your life. This isn't necessarily "control" in the sense you're thinking. I think to be able to put in effort to "strive" for anything means you have control over that thing. In some sense anyway.
A goal (even if it's positive) can certainly run you into negative aspects if the road to that goal cant "bend like a pliable spring." ;)
Now, I'm not saying that you have to compromise principles or anything to get there, but it's that ability to see another door opening when one closes. Being able to be flexible like that, to find the most effective ways to reach a certain goal gives you a vast amount of "control" on that goal. You also have the control necessary to cancel that goal if need be.....for whatever reason. But again, there's different paths to the same "truth" so to speak. So these goals, even though they are a part of you, do not define your self worth, how you feel about yourself, etc.

I have to be honest here. I'm not talking a lot on Buddhism at this moment. I'm kind of "JKDing" the philosophies together.

I'm trying to explain in a very functional way. There's lots of time to talk about the "deep amazing theories" of Buddhism, but my question is always "how's it working for you?"

If we're talking about living a fullfilling life with goals, positive desires, etc. I think it behooves us to talk about functionality. Too many people advocate "coasting" through life without understanding the functionality of human desires, goals, dreams, etc.
Anyone who says "goals and desires" are futile, or "unbuddhist" doesn't get it in my opinion. Someone who says "understand" your goals and desires, and how they relate to you, and you to them, is a step in the right direction. Because when it comes down to it. No goals, no desires, no dreams, equals no life. No human life anyway. No thinking life.
Ryu

Ryu:

Hi Ryu, sorry that I didn't post earlier but I've been out of town lately : /

I think you made some very good points, particularly the sections where you explain where you have to make the principles work for the practitioner as opposed to trying to follow something and not being to apply anything. So yeah taking the stuff that one can use and implementing it.

I've thought about this thread a great deal for a while now and the extra time has given me more time to consider everything that people have said.

I guess when it's all said and done I've got to find a way to live my life. Doing positive things can't really be detrimental to ones life so that's the approach I'm looking for. I guess I may have come across as a bit pessimistic for holding the views I had but for me it was a matter of just asking questions to find deeper meaning and for the better part it's worked.

At the moment I'm doing what I've been doing for a while now and that is setting positive goals and working hard to achieve them. What has changed is that I'm going to attempt to do this without being attached to the outcome of said goal.

What I'm trying to say is, instead of me getting so disappointed if I fail to achieve my goals, I think I'll concentrate more on the 'present' and enjoying the 'process' of goal striving itself. I think when one achieves a goal they feel really good about it for a short period of time and then the feeling subsides.

But if one can enjoy the actual process striving for the goal then it means that they are enjoying a larger part of their life. If at the end of the day I don't achieve the goal, I won't be so disappointed because i wasn't so attached to them.

That is, I can say, ohh well, I may not have achieved the goal but at least I had fun attempting/striving to achieve it.

diego:

What you say is very interesting to me. I do believe I have a lot more to learn though :) Also, LOL at the basketball analogy :D

Joedoe:

You've pretty much summed up how I feel about this thread and you expressed it better than I could. Cheers :)

Once again I'd like to thank everyone who replied. There were still many posts I didn't respond to but suffice to say, they did play a big part in giving me greater understanding of the thread subject.

I would have responded to the rest of the posts but I don't think there is anything much I could add to the responses that hasn't already been said in the thread thus far.