What would u do???(KF related)

[Suntzu]

… or setting up the throw…

OK… your going head up against a skilled opponent… instead of exchanging shots, u decide for a quick takedown… how would u go about upsetting his balance in order to make it more effective and less work on your part… knee, groin and eye gouges are illegal so u cant use your 'traditional' kung fu:rolleyes: :D...

[KC Elbows]

But I like exchanging shots! And usually use some blows to set up takedowns.

I probably don't work takedowns enough, so this should be an interesting thread. However, given my size, I like striking to soften people up, so that's probably what I'd start with, getting in real close. Once I was close, then I'd clinch.

[Suntzu]

I don’t mind echanging shots myself… but I'd rather avoid 'em if I could… one thing I like to do is slip in under a punch and slide in for a clinch and execute a takedown… but sometime, I guess, I don’t strike hard enuff with my shoulder and it becomes more of a strength contest... i'm contemplating other "entry" methods but i'd like to hear what others says...

P.S. - neva mind...

[Merryprankster]

Sun,

I almost guarentee it's not a shoulder problem. It's a footwork problem. Concentrate on breaking their plane with your first step, be it in between their legs, to the outside of their legs, etc. This insures proper shoulder penetration, which leads to a throw :D

Look to footsweeps too and head shucks.

[Suntzu]

MP… u right on the footwork… now give up some of yo' secrets…

[Merryprankster]

Hmm. I may not be the best candidate. My upper body wrestling has always been a weak point. I am great on defense, but average on offense.

I need to know how long you have to work a clinch.

[Suntzu]

personally… 4 seconds… but for the sake of discussion and the sake of getting thru this long boring day by discussion… it doesn’t matter… I'll even allow 'incidental' headbutts...

[yenhoi]

Depends entirely on the energy fed to you, I like to capatalize on non-commited attacks - people throwing random feeler jabs with no thought of filling the hole with a cross, or feeler foot jabs people send out there 2 or 3 times before actually doing anything. Other wise I would close the gap, punch, and work with whatever limbs he throws in my way.

[ShaolinTiger00]

suntzu - email me: william_easlick@hotmail.com. I can give you many ideas.

2 things about off balancing and mma/sanshou context.

#1. Striking sets up clinching sets up throwing.

#2. Opponents movement sets up throwing. (his kicks are a prime example.)


ex for #1. jab. cross (or uppercut if his hands are either too wide of two low). lhook. As you hook your right should already be up and tight to protect. Transition into the clinch by controlling opponents neck with left hand behind neck. right arm should now overhook opponents left. (your bicep on his tricep). - welcome to clinch 101.

step to your right with right foot. bring forward left leg out and beyond opponents left. use overhook and neck control to pull opponent to your right as you now reap your left leg back and thru his leg. He will fall backwards.

I'm sorry if I described it poorly. In Essence you set up the clinch with your punching and then used body grips to take him down with a leg reap (O soto gari in judo).

If we were on the street, jab becomes fingers to the eyes. cross becomes palm to the jaw. but the mechanics and throw are the same.

One more.

This one is a 1 pt. throw because you also go down, but you fall on him and it hurts like a ... well you know.

Throw a couple side kicks on his thighs to make him aware of their effectiveness. Throw one more but this time make it a little lazy. (Don't let it be so sloppy that its stupid!) he will pounce on this moment and his front arm will drop to grab. Quickly hook shin/foot behind his far knee/thigh. Now you are one one leg and that's never good in sanshou.. "hop" support leg directly behind his lead foot ankle. Twist your body to back side of captured leg and use your arms and body to pull him down. Punch him a few times if he's starting to sprawl. its better to have a few punches in and a failed throw than nothing at all..

(both these throws happen so fast.. descibing them makes it seem slow..)

Again in essence you've just used a scissors maneuver to get the fall.



I've got a billion of these..

[Suntzu]

thanks ST… I use both of those throws… altho I'm not real sucessful with the reaping of the leg part… I end up just swinging it back in between there legs… but when it works it’s a beautiful throw… I've had it done to me and I watch it over and over… its really a sight to behold... mine just ends up as a hip toss... the scissor... well most of the cats i train with look for it and know when it comming... plus i dont practice it as much... I'll let Cung keep it... i want some ol' new phat ish... but the kid Jon we have loves it... I'll e-mail u later...

[ShaolinTiger00]

I end up just swinging it back in between there legs

Keep your thigh and calf stiffer, think of them as fused together. The key word here is "reap". Also keep your reaping leg closer to the inside of his thigh and less between his legs.

How 'bout this one.. (works well against a guy who stands square up.)

You're working you jab combo's pretty good so far. Now pump that jab but when you take your shuffle step, take a full step toward his backside. quickly change your level (keep your front arm guard up!) and grab his ankle.calf with overhook. As you lift, take frint foot and place it behind opponents support leg. dump him!


or...

back inside again. You've punched your way into a clinch. and you've got one arm around his waist and the other overhooked across his power arm. (chest to chest) pivot on lead leg and move rear foot roughly 90degrees backwards. This will cause him to take a giant step forward with back leg. Now either use arm that was overhooking to grab this ankle, or put your lead leg foot directly behind his back leg/knee (your lead leg will be between his but your foot will be pointing perpendicular to you.. now just push him back.

[Suntzu]

pivot on lead leg and move rear foot roughly 90degrees backwards. This will cause him to take a giant step forward with back leg. on the personal side… that’s the stuff I am lookig for… ways to upset balance… I like the last throw… I kinda use it but from a different grab and I don’t use the step back… I just try to tip them over or step across them(with tall fighters the step across causes me to stand up and ruins my balance)... i'm gonna try and use the step back... thanks...

but I use the right to hook AROUND(I just readthis part…)
(your lead leg will be between his but your foot will be pointing perpendicular to you..

[ShaolinTiger00]

And one more thing snce I'm thinking about it..

"exchanging blows" is never a good idea. never good on the street, not good in sanshou, and not good anywhere else except boxing and point sparring.. in other words when reality and full contact are a factor. It's bad.

As long as a guy is punching you he stands a "puncher's chance" of hurting you. Slug it out with him and you may win, but you may also get your clock cleaned from the punch you didn't block! and anyone in the fight scene can tell you that even the best fighters get nailed.

Fighting is about the odds and this is the same for the street. Any good gambler will tell you success = playing it safe. either stay out of range, or bang your way into a clinch to control him. don't stay toe to toe on purpose any longer than you have to.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I just try to tip them over or step across them

Now you're talking about an entirely different type of throw. Mine was an ankle pick either with your own feet or hands. Whta you're describing is a "drag" across the hip/body using your own body/leg to block them from regaining balance. (Classic example in judo is Tai-Otoshi)

tai-otoshi (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/taiotoshi.gif)

But of course you are using an upperbody clinch instead of grabbing a gi.

that is one of my favorites and I like to use it in combination.

ex. -punch to clinch, Then take lead leg and inside reap look at feet of guy in white (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ouchigari.htm)
If I catch him great, but if I do not then I will immediately go into the "body drag"

[Royal Dragon]

I just blew through tthis, so forgive me if it's been said already.

in the past I have been adept at droppin down into a low snake stance with my extended foot going between their legs. Then, I shift forward into a bow stance and uproot them. I normally enter from a 45 degree angle, as strait on center always seems to get me eating an elbow.

The only real problem with this is your rules, as you said no knees, or groin shots, and when you shift into the bow the Knee strikes and lifts the Groin from underneath as you uproot'em.

I also like to jam the elbow, and turn them enough to slide my hand up to the face, and pull thier head to the side wile I kick thier leg out from under them. That works real good as you are putting alot of your body force against the weakest piont of thier balance. It's like if you put thier feet on two points of thier triangle, and you pull thier head to the third point, wile removing the front foot at the same time.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I could talk about this stuff all day....


"upsetting balance"


#2. method - you need them to react. Ex.- when you turned back he either fell or stepped forward.

When you're clinched. Pull them and they will resist and pull backwards. perfect time to change directions and reap a leg!

You push them and they lean forward. - perfect time for your drag/block. or a hip throw.

throws that are initiated by you as opposed to catching a kick are more complicated (especially from the clinch) and balance, timing, speed are the things that you'll practice at the gym.

[Suntzu]

Now you're talking about an entirely different type of throw. yeah I noticed that too… I went back and edit'd my reponse…

[ShaolinTiger00]

Royal Dragon -

What is to stop the person from just taking a step or two backwards while you are dropping down into your low snake stance?

(To be honest with you, I think it's horses doody, but I'll try to be open-minded.)

However if I'm ever fighting under a railroad car or table, I want this guy at my side!- He's prepared!

[Royal Dragon]

Another good one comes from one of my "Kung Fu" back therapy postures. Hands are in prayer, and one back leg is extened up behind you. If you lift with the lumbar, it really works the area where my heriations are.


Anyway, what you do is slide up and hug them, entering on a 45. The "hug" consists of your right arm going over thier left shoulder, and the left arm going under ther right and forming the prayer position. You simutaniously step behind them and lift the right leg as you step into the posture. It works when you enter on the side of their lead leg as you can lean your weight on them in the direction of thier third point, thus useing your strength to move them to weakness thier weakness.

[Suntzu]

Whta you're describing is a "drag" across the hip/body using your own body/leg to block them from regaining balance. (Classic example in judo is Tai-Otoshi) that’s what it is… most times I end up using more hip and sometimes I get a good clean 'block' on the foot/ankel…

ex. -punch to clinch, Then take lead leg and inside reap look at feet of guy in white combo theif:p

[ShaolinTiger00]

most times I end up using more hip and sometimes I get a good clean 'block' on the foot/ankel…

A very common situation..

The secret is to put your foot as close as you can to theirs on the outside. If you just "put it out and a little behind" this will give them room to step out and around. You are continuing to pull them and the result is more "hip". By placing the foot right next to theirs (on the outside) they have no wiggle room and immediately start to fall as you pull!


RD - I'm sorry. I don't want to question you or your tactics. I'll just keep my mouth shut and let the guy who asked the question, decide what is useful. My apologies.

[Royal Dragon]

If he takes a step back, he's going t trip over your leg as it's extending under him, in which case as you shift to the bow, your knee will be lifting his knee, which only helps you unbalance him.


If you see that happeneing, you can also cut it short and really hook thier leg as they try to pull it back and hold them there. At the same time, you can grap, jam or fire a really hard strait shot right up the middle of thier centerline as you shift to your bow.

If you have weak stances, you can jam, shuffel in, and check their thigh on the inside of the lead leg as you pull down thier lead arm adn strike/push the upper body, soulder or even face similar to Diagonal strike from Shui Chiao. The snake stance is being used to get UNDER thier support, the shift to the bow to take it from them.

The key is to have a strong foundation through heavy stance work (Posture holding).

[ShaolinTiger00]

RD- I like the result of your attack, but the lack of mobility from such a deep stance may be a hinderance if the opponent can counter. while it may be a good technique, It may be limiting for"everyday" use. Although no one should never underestimate a well timed "clever technique" from the traditional KF library, and I have my own catalog of "WTF?" that I can pull from If I think a guy has got my number.

[Suntzu]

The secret is to put your foot as close as you can to theirs on the outside. If you just "put it out and a little behind" this will give them room to step out and around. You are continuing to pull them and the result is more "hip". yep… that's what happens… my block usually ends up as a hooking leg… and getting the hooking leg usually causes me to stand str8… I need to work on just placing it and turning… I use a sorta snake-type stance (ex. Step across with the right foot, step behind and pivot with the left... or something like that) but i cant spiral down...

OK… good stuff here… what about entering… enter behind the jab… off of a front leg sweep(more like kickin it out/in rather than a full sweep/takedown…

[Royal Dragon]

Actully, lack of mobility is minimal if you are trained right. It's all in how much you hold, and how much your holding wile you hold.

Someone who has gone through the traditional training will be holding all thier base postures for a good 40 minutes, 3 times a week (thats's all of them about 2-3 minutes each during a 40 minute time frame) and as they progress adding weight by holding water buckes logs, or even weighted vests with wrist weights.

A good 18 months of that kind of training will give you suprising moblity, even when in the deepest of stances.

The other point I was trying to make is you can do the same move, only shorten it up so your not so deep, but applied differently and still get a throw out of it. The one I posted above that checks the inside of the thigh is done in a fairly high stance, but up and in close where you can use your elbows to jam incomming force and set up a devisating shot right up the middle to help an already falling opponent hit the ground harder, or even knocked out first. If your really close, and elbow fits in just as well, and maybe even more devistating due to the breaking power of elbow shots.

[ShaolinTiger00]

SunTzu, I'm not exactly sure what you're asking.


OK… good stuff here… what about entering… enter behind the jab… off of a front leg sweep(more like kickin it out/in rather than a full sweep/takedown

Entering - well you really have two choices. You can fight right through the middle and work for a double/single leg, an inner leg reap, or a hip throw -(not bloody likely if you're the one being the aggressor, same with shoulder throw)- but then again combinations can set up these!
this one works:headlock/hipthrow (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/koshiguruma.htm) but there is hell to pay (counter) if you screw it up - suplex

Or you can take the angles and work to get to the side or behind him wehre he's the weakest. Footwork!!I do this alot. (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/taniotoshi.htm)

suplex! (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uranage.htm) is illegal, but I say do it anyways. You do it and you get a warning, maybe even a point deduction. big deal you just dumped him on his head and took the fight right out of him! He just wants to go home now. and you'r just angry because you lost a point!

[fa_jing]

I have had some success with leg hooking, even if I don't take their balance first. I think this is a little like a reap, except that your not cutting a plane against the person's leg with your leg, instead you place your foot behind theirs and lift your leg back and up, bending at the knee so that you are wrapping around their leg and lifting up as you apply pressure to their upper body in the opposite direction. Another version is executed from a clinch, directly in front of the opponent. You grab the opponent with your arms, lean into him a little and bring your rear foot up and behind the opponent's lead leg, without setting it down on the ground execute a pulling-backwards motion with the back of your calf muscle against the back of their knee. You apply a rotational force to the upper body to cause the opponents knee to move forward even more, at this point he will fall to the ground, as will you but you'll fall on top and you can scramble into a mount. I see japanese stylists trying this one all of the time, it may even be from judo, although there is an equivalent move that I saw in the Shuai-Chiao book.

I'm no expert at takedowns, but I am pretty good at getting into the clinch if need be. I use a version of our Fook Sao (subduing hand) which is basically hanging your hand over his wrist, from the outside, while controlling and feeling for movement with the crook between the forearm and bent hand, or the crook created by your boxing glove if you bend your wrist forward. It's not so different from a Mantis hand, in that the forearm is flexed, but the hooking aspect isn't emphasized as much. You can also shoot the forearm forward to dissipate the opponents force if he tries to punch under your arm from this position. I usually start by controlling the lead arm with my rear arm, then moving in and catching the inevitable rear hand punch from the inside with a Bil Sao (thrusting hand), from the outside with another fook sao, or a simple vertical forearm against the bicep if it's a hook. I then wrap his rear arm up under mine. We usually try to acheive the overhook postion so we can throw little hook punches to the head from the clinch, also you can clamp down your armpits and control the opponent a little. I suppose that going for a double-leg would be a good response from the opponent, but they are usually still thinking about their punches that didn't get through.

[ShaolinTiger00]

footsweeps can work, but you must have great timing.

like this (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/okuriashiharai.htm)

If an opponent is behind you and you still have balanceall hope isn't lost (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/sotomaki.gif)

Behind him but having trouble an idea (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ushirogoshi.htm)

There are so many options, depends on the setup and positions..

its simple but complex.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I see japanese stylists trying this one all of the time, it may even be from judo,


The classic ouchi gari (great inner reap)

Judoka love this technique as it sets in motion many things that they will use in combination.

ouchi to uchimata /ouchi to tai otoshi / ouchi to deashi barai / ouchi to osoto gari / ouchi to harai

and so on.

its a little hairy with punching involved though, and works best from the clinch or after you've hit them - concealed your intentions for a split second.

[fa_jing]

Hmm - I wasn't describing O Uchi Gari, at least not from what I can see at Judoinfo.com. What I'm describing is similar - except you bring your leg up higher, wrap your leg around his thigh and knee from the outside, not the inside.

[ShaolinTiger00]

oh my mistake that is Osoto gari, but a non traditional way. the way you describe is often used in competition.

[fa_jing]

Ko Soto Gake looks the most like it, out of those animations, except that the target on the persons leg that I am talking about is higher. maybe it's Major outside hooking??

[fa_jing]

OK, yes it is Osoto Gari, but instead of you being to the side of him and using your right leg against his right leg, you would be in front of him and using your right leg against his left leg. And, it would typically be executed with both opponents having one leg forward, like a boxers stance or the stance that most of us use. A picture would be worth a thousand words here. :)

[ShaolinTiger00]

yes Osoto gari (major outer reap) is the technique. It is just as you described. and very different from the formal technique of the same name.

[fa_jing]

Picture:http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/kosogake.gif

This is in fact what I'm talking about.

[ShaolinTiger00]

judo article on the two different throws (http://www.bestjudo.com/article4.shtml)

A picture of the mighty Yama****a and his famous Osoto gari (http://www.bestjudo.com/yama****a1.jpg)

[ShaolinTiger00]

that picture is deceiving fajing. trust me kosoto gake is an attack on the ankle.

my above post should clarify this for you.

[SevenStar]

I haven't read this thread, so this has probably already been said, but to set up the throw you will need to step properly, and use of the body, like the shoulder or hip for bumping. the step will upset the balance, and the bump will actually break it. Also, against an arcing strike, like a hook, try slipping under it and getting slightly behind them. There are throws and takedowns that can be done from there, like tani otoshi and ura nage.

[Suntzu]

WOW… how japanese this thread has begun…

ST… I think I was asking how do u set up the clinch itself… Sevenstar made a few good points on that…

[ShaolinTiger00]

As 7 star mentioned the duck under can work very well. It’s all about appropriate time and drilling. (he jabs, you slip out and UMPH! )

Entering the clinch. – Simply put you need to get past his hands and either shoulder to waist (takedown)or chest to chest. Upper body clinch. Its harder than it sounds.. I like to "counter clinch" or avoid/block his punches and then clinch while his arms are not drawn up into a ready position again.

David Ross recently posted the following on MMA.tv/kickboxing about the clinch and he summed up (and more) anything I could say.

A gift, a new thread topic The San Da clinch, a new installment, by LKFMDC..
Clinching, as almost everyone already knows, is a complex but extremely important subject. It is both a form of offense and defense. It of course can be used to "wrestler"/grapple but also to strike. Here are some basic principles and suggestions on how to teach and practice the clinch

In San Shou/San Da and in MMA, there are two basic divisions of clinching. You can clinch the neck or you can clinch the body.

Clinching the neck allows for striking (knee mostly) and defends against throws

Clinching the body allows for throws and defends against striking

They are flip sides of the same coin, Yin and Yang. And they lead from one to another and back again. For an instructor, presenting this material is often a difficult task

My suggestions to coaches:

1. write down all the techniques/situations you know in clinching

2. Examine the list and group the techniques/situations that are directly related together

3. Re-examine the list, sequencing the situations and also linking the sub-groups in places there is over lap.

This will help you develop a lesson plan:
Present material in small sub-groups, trying to do it all will over load the average student. And present the material in a logical and progressive way... I usually break neck clinching and body clinching into separate lessons as to not confuse them
1. How do we get there?
For example, neck clinching: parry and then clinch, double forearm shield vs shoot, block the hook and grab the neck, parry and grab the neck, etc

so they understand how they end up in that position. Important details can be explained slowly, never reach out at the same time with both hands. grab and keep other hand up. Block punches and return to neck hold, etc

2. Establish control
Teach the ultimate objective, to pull in the head and start to knee. Teach the second objective, to use it to stop the shoot

3. How will the opponent fight back?
Start showing the basic counters. Defenses vs. the first single hand hold, defenses vs. both hands, arm weaving, etc...

4. When the opponent fights back....
Neck wrestling, head spinning, etc. They don't want you to do your thing. This is how you counter what they are doing

5. Point out the overlaps
As they get comfortable with the basics, show them the overlaps. You grab the neck, they counter the neck hold and grab the waist, show them how this leads (for the defender) to body clinching. As the attacker breaks the body lock, show how if they don't hold their arms the correct way you can shoot in on them. Show the sprawl vs the shoot, etc

some practical examples...
Body clinching vs. striking, a progression: parry jab, parry cross, block hook, clinch

phase 1: just clinch, work on the parrying/blocking, keeping hands up, keeping shoulder forward, shuffling in straight, burrying head, wrapping arm

phase 2: the "bump", the impact and how the opponent responds

a) stands upright
b) bases out/sprawls back
c) steps back


phase 3: from these situations teach responses

a) throw
b) knee
c) follow through throw


neck clinching vs. striking, a prgression: parry jab, parry cross, block hook, clinch

Phase 1: practice the basics of this clinch. You can grab with the opposite hand at the same time you block the hook or you can block, then grab the neck.

Phase 2: opponent responds:

a) stands upright
b) bases out/sprawls back
c) steps back


Phase 3: from these situations

a) Either create space for knee or throw

to throw, in this case, one hand (depending upon throw) will leave neck to grab upper arm/waist/shoulder, etc to set up throw

b) Knee all the way if they are stupid enough to do this! :)

c) Head spins, other throws, other strikes

[fa_jing]

ST00-well, from the moving picture I can tell that kosoto gake is as you said an attack against the ankle, but the setup position for the throw I'm trying to describe is the same as the picture I posted, however the force is going to continue in a different direction. Also the takedown I'm describing differs from the first article that you posted, in that you tend to lean into the guy, rather than step away, and the target is the front leg, not the rear. But I do agree that if you do the throw correctly against a resisting opponent, you are going to need to go down on top of him.
I couldn't see the second photo, as yama****a got tore up by the censor software...

Regarding the Japanese of this thread - I think Judo is a bit simpler than Shuai Chiao - no cross steps, arm locking, etc. It makes an easy reference for the basic techniques, plus judoinfo.com has those great images of the throws.

[Suntzu]

I DO appreciate judoinfo for the gif.'s… a couple throws I learned on my own just by watching those lil clips… I work out with some judo guys and from my perspective… I had more trouble with there footwork… I'm used to the cross stepping and so forth… but in time...

ST… Coach Ross does know his sh!t… I look forward to crossing some of his guys… I'm sure it'll be a learning experience on both sides…

this is good stuff… stickgrappler should be archiving this thread…

[fa_jing]

Here's another way to unbalance your opponent: Punch him and step behind, checking his lead arm, you should step or step through so that you are behind him and more or less facing his back, grab his rear shoulder with your lead arm and pull him backwards, take what was your lead foot and clip his lead ankle (kick it forward with the instep) as you pull on his shoulder. Another variation is instead of reaching behind his neck to grab the rear shoulder, reach in front of his neck with a Mantis hook and pull him towards his back while clipping his front leg. I didn't see this one on the Judo page, although I think it is a fairly basic martial arts move

[fa_jing]

Actually I should point out that you have to unbalance him with the pull first, he will take the weight off of his front leg and then you can clip it. Now while we were playing around in class with this, we realized that the defender could deliberately put weight on his front foot, negating the clip. A wise grappler would just switch to another throw, but my sifu advises us that if the throw or lock ain't working, punch and kick. However, in a dynamic situation where the defender is unprepared for it, the throw is likely to work.

[ShaolinTiger00]

and the target is the front leg, not the rear.

It doesn't matter. Its the leg closest to you inside that is being reaped.

Judo simpler? maybe. simpler is better. esier to learn and easier to make "blocks" of combinations that work from the movement of the previous. And the japanese love to categorize things in a nice orderly way so the names and types of throws are also easy to understand.


he will take the weight off of his front leg and then you can clip it.

This is exactly what you DON’T want to happen. If this is what you’re “trying” to achieve then your throw is practically. Worthless.

You need the leg to be “full” that’s why you’re taking it out!!! And why leg sweeps attack the ankle (remove the ankle and the leg follows) and why the osoto gari in both forms, needs to be such a powerful movement!

Perfect example. You lead with a jab/cross and attempt to use an inner reap (your leg hooks low to your back side in a reverse “c” shape. When he reacts He will pull this leg back LEAVING the leg closest to you with his weight for a split second. Your clinch keeps the leg “loaded” and him off balance while your stiff, strong thigh comes up and reaps it out.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by fa_jing

Regarding the Japanese of this thread - I think Judo is a bit simpler than Shuai Chiao - no cross steps, arm locking, etc. It makes an easy reference for the basic techniques, plus judoinfo.com has those great images of the throws.

Not to mention the fact that shuai chiao doesn't really have standardized technique names

[Suntzu]

I can never get the judo names… its allways 'the one were I do his foot like this' or 'the one were I grab like this'… but the names sound like u kickin someones azz… IPPON!!!

[ShaolinTiger00]

Throwing should be efficient above anything else, If you are struggling to throw, then stop back out safely using your grips and striking to defend and get back outside to set up another offense.

Maximum efficiency through minimum effort.



Again, Why attack an empty leg? What have you gained if he’s still standing? He should have at least 50% of his weight on the leg, unless it is a kick that you caught. (at least then you are holding it in your arms and have your hips and legs to break him down)

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
and the target is the front leg, not the rear.

It doesn't matter. Its the leg closest to you inside that is being reaped.

True.




he will take the weight off of his front leg and then you can clip it.

This is exactly what you DON’T want to happen. If this is what you’re “trying” to achieve then your throw is practically. Worthless.

You need the leg to be “full” that’s why you’re taking it out!!! And why leg sweeps attack the ankle (remove the ankle and the leg follows) and why the osoto gari in both forms, needs to be such a powerful movement!



OK, I am no longer describing a full reap or whatever, or even leg hooking. I'm describing a leg clip from behind, while pulling back on his shoulder. Yes, he could "empty" his front leg and my clip would pass right through - but remember, I am pulling back on his shoulder, and he is now on one leg, NOT holding on to me in any way. This technique is really designed to make them stumble, not fall - that would be a followup. Whereas if he made the leg "full" and sinks, especially if he's got shoes on and it's atractable surface, my clip won't work, except due to a preponderance of force. I am thinking that ideally, the opponent takes some weight off of the foot, but leaves 20-30% or so - so he still will lose his balance when I clip, but the clip itself won't be so hard to execute. Again, if he doesn't fall, but you've caused him to move his front foot 18 inches forward in a "stumble" - type motion - he's there for the next technique.

[Merryprankster]

Suntzu,

Shaolin is better than me at explaining this stuff, but there is something that I am not seeing in your questions, which is combo throwing. I have a combo I like in Judo--Uchimata, Kosotogari, O Uchi Gari...and the best part is that if I miss the last one, I'm set right back up for Uchi.

It's not the specific throw sequence that are important, it's understanding that each throw offbalances the opponent for the next one. Uchi causes them to load the leg I attack for Ko Soto, which causes them to load the leg for O uchi, which causes them to load the leg for an uchi or Ko Soto, and the whole time I'm driving them backwards or pulling them forwards depending on the throw.

On a good guy, you can't hit something and expect it to work. You have to counter their counter--anticipate what YOU are going into next. If you know exactly what you are going to do next (I know I'll go uchi to Ko soto to O uchi/uchi depending) then you are going to be that much faster and harder to counter.

[morbicid]

When I shot in to grab his legs for the take down, I would also drive my head into the groin area. This is a sneaky move that the never see coming!! The ref (if there is one), usually wont see this if you are subtle. It will put your opponent in some serious pain and it works!!!!!

[ricksitterly]

that's a pretty low thing to do to someone morbicid. a skilled fighter wouldnt have to rely on "sneaky" dirt bag tricks to win a fight. just in my opinion... besides you could get kneed in the face very easily trying this

[morbicid]

you just try kneeing me in the face you little b!tch!! Not only would I ram my head into your groin, but I would bite and shred it with my teeth. I bet my "sneaky tricks" would work on your pathetic @ss.

[Merryprankster]

I'd sprawl first then remove your teeth with my knees. But what do I know.

FWIW, suntzu asked this in a sportive context. I dunno about you, but I wear a CUP in full contact arenas.

[Suntzu]

but there is something that I am not seeing in your questions, which is combo throwing. good point… I haven't thot that far… if anything… in practice it becomes something that sorta happens rather than something that I planned and have worked on… now that I think about it… I have 2 that I have that I KNOW is a combo…

[ShaolinTiger00]

I would also drive my head into the groin area.

First off double leg takedowns rarely work against san shou guys because the training makes you very base aware and able to sprawl and protect anytime a guy even looks like he's going o shoot. The best shoots come after landing a big blow to someone and catching them as they are dazed.


Second- you can't dump him if your head in in his crotch! You need to quickly change levels, come up in under his hips and lift straight up then "bump or dump". You head will be on his sternum. If your head is at his balls your hips are at his ankles you're in trouble... not to mention you probably can't see where you're going.. since your eyes are closed. pray.

[No_Know]

Jump sweeps. Foot by rear outside of opponent's foot-lean them to that direction. No space between your hip and their body/hip-down While turning should reduce the dragging across.

Entering: Stutter step-legs kept close at end of step helps throws to be executed better~.

Head under swing (left); punch passed rightside of neck; bring fist and head together--a driving takedown or backwards slam (dangerous to other person as I am seeing it) (not for cometition perhaps)

[ShaolinTiger00]

ttt for a good thread.

(Its better than that idiotic "chi girls")

[ShaolinTiger00]

ttt for "terminlogy" reference.

[Oso]

I think what RD is trying to describe is utilizing the
'snake creeps down' posture from tai chi which in
general application can be used to slip under an
attack, especially an 'over' thrown punch or kick
where the attacker/opponent is way off balance
towards you.

It is practiced extremely low but only needs to be
as low as you need to be in a given situation.

In comparison, I might use SCD in the example sevenstar
has given for ducking under a punch and rising close
to the body for a clinch.

I might also rise and shift into 'slant flying' which is
basically an off balancing shoulder hit. If they are
very commited forward this can be a fairly hard
blow and might knock them down or at least back
a bit and stun them enough for a follow up.

I would like to suggest that tai chi is pretty good
at drawing an opponents balance ****her than they
might have intended.

However, I don't think I would have this in my toolkit
for a san shou/mma comp as I would doubt that I would
get an extremely wild overblown punch thrown at me.
And I, for one, am not that great at applying this.

I'd sprawl first then remove your teeth with my knees. But what do I know.

LOL


morbiKid should be ignored

[KC Elbows]

Just to clarify, I was joking around with my response, and chose words carelessly. Choosing to 'trade blows', i.e. end up in a stalemate where each person can strike each other equally well would not be smart. I merely like striking, but obviously position is something to strive for.

But if you must throw people, don't let me stop you. I like moves that knock people down more than throwing, but the ideas not all that different, and its just my preference.

As for the snake creeps, isn't that also basically the same as a fireman's carry? Or am I thinking the wrong move? My tai chi knowledge is limited.

[Oso]

snake creeps vs. fireman's

sorta kinda maybe.

I was pretty succesfull as the fireman's carry in high school
(lo these many years ago) and haven't made the comparison.

thanks, KC, I'll have to work with both and see.

[ShaolinTiger00]

A firemans' carry and "snake creeps down" are nothing alike.


*edit*

After looking for a picture of "snake creeps" down I came across this webpage:click here (http://www.patiencetaichi.com/snake_creeps_down.htm) and although this posture is much higher than any I've seen (the legs are usually inches off the floor), It absolutely transitions into a fireman's carry.

I stand corrected, but believe the stance is still impractical. Look at photo#2. What is stopping the opponent from knocking that guy's head off with a right cross?

The reason it is so poor an application and will never work is the fact that no off-balancing occurs to set up the throw. He just assumes that you're going to be able to enter.

[KC Elbows]

As I said, my tai chi knowledge is limited. There's a move where one application is that you slide down as low as necessary, and fireman's carry your opponent. I've seen it done very similarly in both tai chi and eagle claw. I don't do that a lot, because it's not practical for my body type, but I've seen people doing it, and I thought it was snake creeps.

Maybe I've got the move wrong. Snake creeps involves sliding down into pu bu and sort of pointing your lead arm forward, shifting your weight forward, while the other arm goes backward sort of. If your rear arm is gripping your opponent's arm, and the lead arm is in between the opponent's legs, this pretty much forces a fireman's carry to occur. Isn't this snake creeps, without much of the detail work?

[ShaolinTiger00]

see edit above.

[KC Elbows]

Agreed. Some technique would have to precede it to make it safe to execute.

[KC Elbows]

Okay, my undereducated opinion of the application in that link.

The opponent's lead arm doesn't seem very well secured, and so the hook is possible. However, if there was a good grab on the lead hand, a hook would be harder to execute, because the shoulders couldn't turn too freely if the lead arm was held, and forcing a shoulder turn might speed up the carry, though I'm not sure of that.

Not meant as a criticism of the pic in the link, and not saying I could do better.

However, I hate moves that depend on holding, I like keeping my hands free, so again, not my cup of tea. If I'm gonna hold, I want instant payoff so I can release quick.

[Oso]

snake creeps would be just the entering move imo.

In the pictures on the site you found I would critique the guy
doing it by saying that either

a- his opponent had not commited forward enough

or

b- he had not drawn his opponent forward enough

the opponent has too much of his balance and can therefore
react by striking as you have pointed out. I would only use
SCD if I was sure he was off balance otherwise I would in no
way move under him w/o having his arms occupied.


but, in a more realistic application of the move his left hand
would have to be ready to deflect/block/snag his opponents
right hand if it fires. In my form our lower hand is out and
ostensibly covering the forward extended leg. Which this guy's
is. He just isn't showing any thought about the other guy's
right hand.

The typical single punch application that tends to get cma apps
laughed at.

if it were me attempting to do that exact move I would maybe
accept the right hand if I thought I could get enough of a turn on
my body/head so that the effect of the hit would be minimal.

I think the guy showing the move is trying to make the move look
too much like the form vs. taking the theory behind the movement
and applying it.

Different style/versions of tai chi will be lower or higher in their
stancework and the form will seldom look exactly like application.
IMHO

[ShaolinTiger00]

I think the guy showing the move is trying to make the move look


-

If the "form" doesn't do the move correctly, then why are you practicing it? You're purposely practicing bad technique?

just part of my grudge against "form applications"..

[Oso]

I think snake creeps is mostly intended to defend against a low
line leg attack maybe combined with a high line punch.

I think it can be used in other applications by modifying it.

my goal as a martial artist is to make the movements I have
learned in my forms fit different applications.

I am not a proponent of learning ONLY the originally intended
or traditionally passed down application for a particular movement
I will rip apart my forms and put them back together different
ways and with components of other forms to find application.
I am good at this and this is what the 'art' side of martial
art means to me.

CMA traditionalists scoff at this approach and that's ok.
I feel it gives me a broader scope of concepts to use in fighting.

but, as usual, that's just me

[KC Elbows]

"If the "form" doesn't do the move correctly, then why are you practicing it? You're purposely practicing bad technique?"

The form, to my knowledge, is not meant to personify one application, but that's a whole other hornets nest. It's a movement, meaning it personifies a way to move, that can be used under different circumstances with minor alterations. Thus, a dozen applications can be taught by first teaching one movement.

At least, that's my take on it. But my style is designed that way. And there's only one form, so it's not like forms practice is preempting fight training.

[ShaolinTiger00]

*noted*

[Merryprankster]

The link suggests this application of "Snake Creeps Down," requires great skill to perform. Great skill to perform my ass. That was the first takedown I ever had any success with. Easy--just have to make sure their weight is forward and you step deep.

[Oso]

KC said it better than I did.

[Oso]

Easy--just have to make sure their weight is forward and you step deep.


right. Like I said the pics don't show the attacker as weight
forward. maybe the vid does but I can't dl that at work.

I too think it's easy if applied correctly.


lol, I'm sure as he ll not going to post app's on my sight for you
guys to tear apart, or maybe I will and hopefully vindicate cma
a little.
:)

[KC Elbows]

Merry,
everybody wants their stuff to be sublime. That's why I'd make a terrible school owner. Everyone wants an advanced salmon belt class, where the secrets are learned. My advance salmon belt program can be summed up in the simple phrase "Punch him while he's getting his soda pop."

[KC Elbows]

I could do a vid of my advanced salmon belt program. I think it would get good reviews here.