Weapons disarms : IN or OUT

[Brad Souders]

How do you guys like to handle weapons disarms. I'm talking mostly knife and stick (baseball bat, pipe, etc).

For knife work i like ot work outside of the opponent to control the wrist. Contolling high on the wrist to stop tip ripping. I know to trough out the whole thought i won't get cut in a knife situation. LOL if you think like this i hope you like chipped beef cause that's what your arm will look like. When controlling the wrist i still like to stay mostly disengaged from the accacter until i'm one hundred in comtrol of that weapon. I only would take it to the ground if it where in a wrsit or armlock position before it hit the ground.

For sticks i like to engage in tight. Since these are long range weaponds l like to destroy their advantage. I usually like to gunt into the attack hopefully destroying their limb with the weapon. These situations as long as they are one on one i would take to the ground. Just for the simple fact the weapon is less of a factor other then short shots. When clinched with weapons like these i like to control the armed arm and work the other postions of the body while maintaining that arm.

Sorry i was bored and wanted to start a topic.

Later, Brad "typical MMA ego driven male" Souders

[Stranger]

With "cold" weapons disarming to the inside or out is a matter of preference combined with how things go down.

"Hot" weapons are less forgiving and therefore (as I understand it) should be controlled from the inside of the wrist whenever possible.

I agree that taking an attacker with an impact weapon to the ground is a good strategy for negating much of the weapon's effectiveness.

When dealing with an attacker armed with a knife, stay soft.

[Suntzu]

RUN...

[Stranger]

Aye, running is the best option, but I don't think the post was started with the intenion of finding a solution to those attacks that you can get away from. Just a hunch. ;)

[Suntzu]

I know… just being an azz…

[MonkeySlap Too]

Try your knife disarms at full speed against a skilled opponent, and you will mostly likely discover there is such thing as a knife disarm in combat. Trying to focus on the knife puts your FOCUS in the wrong place. You should be aware of the blade, but get past it and take out the opponents real weapon, thier ability to think and be aware.

To defeat an opponent with a blade, while you are unarmed (a really stupid idea, and I have a hard time picturing a time when one might be unarmed) requires that you 'defang thier head' - a phrase I first heard from Serak teacher Vic DeThouras, that still makes me chuckle.

There are knife dis-arms however...

[Brad Souders]

i train at a mma type school lol everything is at full speed. I can understand the defang process but isn't that geared towards more of a knife on knife situation. I mean you could gunt the attack but one slip and there is a cut. Also what about a static type attack (mugging) u can't defang a snake without contolling the head it bites with.

[Cheese Dog]

MonkeySlap Too; You are correct sir! Unarmed full speed knife disarms are mostly fantasy. Get the weapon "off line" where it momentarily can't harm you and then take out their "command center". I like the expression "defang their head"!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Brad Souders
i train at a mma type school lol everything is at full speed. I can understand the defang process but isn't that geared towards more of a knife on knife situation. I mean you could gunt the attack but one slip and there is a cut. Also what about a static type attack (mugging) u can't defang a snake without contolling the head it bites with.

You're making the same assumption I did, bro - defanging the head and defanging the snake aren't the same - go to the reality thread. There's a post about knife defense there and an explanation of defanging the head.

[Dave Fulton]

Weapons disarms, especially against a knife, are incidental, not something to focus on. You deal with the attacker and if the opportunity presents itself you take the weapon away.

Going inside or out is dictated more by circumstances than by preference so you should be proficient at both. One or the other may not be available to you due to circumstances and both have their advantages and disadvantages, but are you going to risk getting cut or stabbed for the sake of getting to your preferred position?

Defanging the snake can be done empty-handed.

Controlling someone's arm is easiest to do when that arm is close to your own body.

Going to the ground with someone armed with a knife could be big trouble if they have more than one.

When clinching or going to the ground with someone armed with a stick do not forget that stick grappling is an art all it's own.

My perspective from training in Arnis and Silat and full-contact sparring.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

[Sho]

For the knife: Take a piece of cloth (ie. your jacket) and try to wrap it around the blade and the hand which is holding it. Or another option would be to kick his hand so that the impact itself would cause him drop the knife, but it should be executed unexpectedly. It's all about timing and speed (and balls of course). These are only theories, and above all, the opponent is not a sitting duck, so these methods are not as simple as they may sound when put into words. I haven't been in a situation like this, therefore my statements are rather inadequate and theorized in case you're asking for more reliable "facts" gained from experience. However, these are the actions that I would do in a situation like that.

[apoweyn]

okay, so perhaps the disarm itself is incidental. but the need to control the weapon (i.e., not have it moving around on its own terms while you're in range) follows the same basic principles, i think.

i'm with brad and stranger. close range on the impact weapon and smother it. it needs momentum to do damage, and it needs space to generate momentum.

the knife is harder. i know knife disarms. but frankly, the only ones i have much faith in is simply to impact the knife hand in the process of blocking and parrying it. essentially, a gunting (though not necessarily the textbook scissoring action).

in freestyle knife defense drills i've done, i had the most luck simply by 'tapping' the opponent's wrist as i parried. the knife came flying out of his grip. but as several people have said, that sort of disarm is basically incidental to actually blocking, parrying, and evading the weapon.

as for 'defanging the head', obviously a guy suffering head trauma is preferable to a guy simply dropping his knife. but not taking control of the knife, at least in some measure, is a very risky proposition to my mind.


stuart b.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Trying to fight empty-handed against a knife weilding opponent is pretty risky.

Without getting into great detail, you effectively zone the knife out of the way, or supply a sudden shock to both the weapon arm and head of your opponent. You then immediately seek to control the 'root' of your opponents limb. Often by immobilizing the shoulder. Done properly, and assuming your opponent still has a knife, he will not be able to reach you with his blade.

That's one of many methods. Focusing on the weapon / weapon hand is suicide. Really.

Although --- there are other things / methods. My teachers have all suggested against it, but I did successfully crescent kick a knife out of someones hand once. It was just a moron in Grant Park, and I was just a dang lucky college kid, but it worked.


So there are many factors that can come into play. But if you want a chance of survival against an even remotely skilled opponent, defang the head. But of course, you must understand how to get past the blade.

[apoweyn]

monkeyslap too,

i'm not picturing this right, clearly. if you take control of the shoulder on the inside, what's to stop him from stabbing you in the back? (i guess the repeated blows to the head. makes sense.)

so you hit the head, causing shock, then control the weapon arm?



stuart b.

[red5angel]

I'm not sure I understand why everyone seems to believe that approaching your knife defense by controlling the knife arm is a bad way to go about it?

This past summer I did some vs knife training and I found out that there is only one thing about a knife defense that is almost for sure and that is if you are bare handed and can't get away, expect to get cut. That said I saw some pretty cool things I found to be simple. First, stay away from the wrist, second, up towards the elbow is the place you want to get a hold of, and third, follow anything you do with as vicious and as deadly an attack as you can make. Whoever has the knife is out to hurt you so don't be afraid to hurt back.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Apowyn: In the example I so poorly described, you are striking the weapon arm an the inside/top - at the same time you srike the head - at the same beat you scoot in there - the arm that struck the weapon arm goes up and under so that your shoulder is in your opponents arm pit, you wrap around into a tight shoulder lock. There is a sweet spot there where the shoulder lock effectively keeps the hand/knife from you - you might get knicked, but not cut or stabbed.

If you do not get the sweet spot - you are f@cked.

This is only one of many methods. But the key is not to focus on the weapon. Ironically, RedAngel5 while disagreeing said much the same thing. His focus is above the elbow.

But - and I welcome anyone to try - the standard 'disarms' are a dangerous folly, and don't work on even a moderately trained knife fighter.

For detailed info on knife (and other weapon) fighting from someone who knows worlds more, go to www.serak.com.

These guys are really, really good. And thier stuff works when you try it in live fire exercises.

[Brad Souders]

Maybe my thread was a little misleading. I was referring more to what range u guys like to stick to as far as certain weapons, but the conversation has turned into a pretty informative and awesome convo.

As far as theory of fighting against a weopon i use different analogies. One time i was teaching diarms to a city SWAT team unit and here is what i used.

Fighting a knife can kinda be like playing team basketball. The other team has one very dangeous player and four other decent helpers. Well the first thing u do is set your sights on controlling that threat and playing tight on him. Yeah he might get in a lick or two but he won't do serious damage. After containing him your still must focus on the other four opponents. And as in life situations just don't forget to make sure your players are working as a team also.

if u walk away from a knife fight unscathed your a liar, if u walk away with a scratch your lucky, if u walk away period your **** lucky.

Brad "what the hell do i really know i just gay hump grapple" Souders

[MonkeySlap Too]

Brad - my favorite knife fight that wasn't story --

One fine evening while walking out of Gippers - a once great soul food BBQ place in Hobart Indiana (Hint - a crappy neighborhood) - a fellow walked up to me brandishing a knife.

Before he could say anything, I said, "Hey let me see that."

And he handed me the knife.

The look in his eyes once I had the blade was priceless.

BTW - thinking about it, most of my 'real-world experience comes from going to great restaraunts in sh!tty parts of town.

Man, I miss Gippers...

[Brad Souders]

To show some of what we do check out this

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/totalmartialtraining

Click on links then TMT Promo
Later, Brad

[shinwa]

what's so scary about it, he swings, you dodge, he misses, kick him in the balls, go home and catch Training Day :confused: I've been stabbed in the hand once but eh, no big deal. I didn't die, or even lose the fight. I probably worry more about high level empty hand types (grappling or stand up) than I do some punk with a blade.

[Volcano Admim]

Well, young one Private Souders, you obviously private soldier my years of train time academic display, knife is created for both hand and one foot to escape your maner moving in circles across puts you in favourite (best) positions. If you need anymore tip on fighting jus asks me.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shinwa
what's so scary about it, he swings, you dodge, he misses, kick him in the balls, go home and catch Training Day :confused: I've been stabbed in the hand once but eh, no big deal. I didn't die, or even lose the fight. I probably worry more about high level empty hand types (grappling or stand up) than I do some punk with a blade.

Consider yourself lucky. Only a fool underestimates a blade...

[Brad Souders]

LOL Admin i will ask more questions as long as th eanswers come in the version of engrish
later, Brad "i can't understand what your saying" Souders

[shinwa]

Originally posted by SevenStar


Consider yourself lucky. Only a fool underestimates a blade...

Luck has little to do with it, a blade is only as good as the man behind it. I got stabbed because of my own fudge up, but eh. I mean 9 times out of ten someone with a knife forgets all about defending their own weak areas. Why? Weapons seem to breed overconfidence. Knife or not, they're still a man, same vunerabilities as every other f00 on the planet, except now they're more likely rely on one weapon instead of 4.

I'm talking about average folks with a knife in the pocket btw, not you kali, shaolin dagger types. Same strategy applies, just a more cautious version of it.

[Brad Souders]

LOL its better to be a fighter with a knife than a knifefighter.
Later, Brad "MMA EGO" Souders

[shinwa]

It's better to be a fighter with a gun than a fighter witha knife? :confused:

[David Jamieson]

There are quite a few very useful knife disarming techniques in CMA.

I've learned a couple. I have to say that "kicking the knife hand" may work but I can't be sure I'm not gonna get my foot or leg cut.

I've found that waiting for the lunge commitment is the best opportunity to control the hand that controls the blade. once the hand is trapped, strike, strike fast, strike hard and strike repeatedley.

for clubs bats and sticks, it is a similar idea, but to control the elbow and wrist is key. sometimes you can move inside and get the weapon, sometimes you have to wait for the swing and a miss before moving in for the trap and disarm.

Natural practice is key to getting these techs embedded into your muscle memory should you ever have to rely on the techs.

sometimes you are gonna get cut, simple and sometimes you are gonna get whacked, simple. so do your iron body and learn to grin and bear it. It is very difficult to do these techniques of disarms without realistic and extensive practice and on the street, you just never know.

cheers

[shinwa]

I agree with Kung Lek.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by shinwa
what's so scary about it, he swings, you dodge, he misses, kick him in the balls, go home and catch Training Day :confused: I've been stabbed in the hand once but eh, no big deal. I didn't die, or even lose the fight. I probably worry more about high level empty hand types (grappling or stand up) than I do some punk with a blade.

well, this might cover your 'punks with knives' angle. but anyone that knows what they're doing is kinda unlikely to 'swing' with a knife. that's what's so scary about it. the guy that knows what he's doing is always what's so scary about it. not the silly b*stard that flails at you. (of course, a blind asthmatic with a knife is still something to be taken seriously. believe me. i know.)


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

monkeyslap too,

well, i think i disagree with you. partially, at least. i'm not going to fixate on the weapon. but i am going to try and maintain control over it from the get go. and i may do that to the exclusion of taking shots at the head. once i have some degree of control of the knife, then i'll counter to the head.

mostly, i try to use tapping blocks (tapi tapi) to try and create an opening to move in. if i can get past the knife, i try to maintain control of the wrist or elbow. any higher than that and i worry that the guy can stab back on me.

to be clear, i've done this in freestyle drills. but rest assured that i've never been attacked with a knife for real. no claiming to be a street veteran here.


stuart b.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Apowyn - we are not too far off. Tapi-Tapi stuff can be good to get in with. When you control above the elbow, the key word is control - not seize. Where you place his position from the control is the most important facet of this.

The hard fact is, if you go for the weapon, against someone really trying to do you, seizing or disarming will not work.

Do some Espay y Dage sparring and try to disarm. It won't happen, except by luck or your opponent isn't really trying to get you.

Also - most disarms rely on way to much of a 'feed', that allows for it to happen. While in Phillipino arts, there are other drills to give you the 'touch', most real stabbings don't involve much space. Which, surprisingly, gives you the room to knock out thier command center - IF you think of doing it, versus trying to wrestle with the knife.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Apowyn - we are not too far off. Tapi-Tapi stuff can be good to get in with. When you control above the elbow, the key word is control - not seize. Where you place his position from the control is the most important facet of this.

The hard fact is, if you go for the weapon, against someone really trying to do you, seizing or disarming will not work.

Do some Espay y Dage sparring and try to disarm. It won't happen, except by luck or your opponent isn't really trying to get you.

Also - most disarms rely on way to much of a 'feed', that allows for it to happen. While in Phillipino arts, there are other drills to give you the 'touch', most real stabbings don't involve much space. Which, surprisingly, gives you the room to knock out thier command center - IF you think of doing it, versus trying to wrestle with the knife.

So, we are probably closer to agreement than not...

[apoweyn]

monkeyslap too,

nice distinction. control vs. seizing. i should have made that explicit. yeah, i'm talking about control rather than actually grabbing.

i've done espada y daga sparring before. and yeah, a disarm was unlikely. can't remember whether any came off by pure chance or not. but definitely not the plan. the plan was to stab and to hit. similar to what you're advocating.

yes, the feed definitely has a lot to do with how we see disarms and the like. feeding is generally more freestyle than one-step sparring but less so than freesparring. so it can definitely lend a false sense of control, timing, etc.


So, we are probably closer to agreement than not...

sounds that way, yeah. i figured it was probably just a question of understanding what the other meant.

cheers.


stuart b.