forms question

[MightyB]

Recently, somebody posted a question about home-made forms on the PM forum. I think I pretty much stated my opinion on that matter there, but I was wondering what some of you think. I'm in the anti-home-made forms camp, but it got a good response on that forum so I figured it might start a good ol' argument here. So let's have it, home-made forms-- good or bad? Why?

[Suntzu]

when I shadow I use combinations that I 'make up'… and I use them 'live' in that sequence… so… I guess… home-made is all good…I guess I'm a super-genious…:D

[Felipe Bido]

I think you can combine different techniques from different forms (One technique, and one or two backup techs), and practice them together until your arse goes blue (a few hundred times) for power. Then, get a partner and practice it in different situations.

If you wanna name your combinations, and call them "My Style Fu", well, it's up to you. But it's very important that you know and UNDERSTAND the principles inside the forms that you took them from.

Taking different forms from different books and making up your own, to brag about being a "Kung Fu Master" will make Royce choke you out in 0.2 seconds....

HUH? EVEN I CAN CHOKE OUT A GUY LIKE THAT IN 0.2 SECONDS!

In a nutshell: Know the forms, know how to apply their movements, understand its principles, discard what it's not useful for your purpose, and you can make your own combos.

[red5angel]

I am not sure most people truly understand what forms are doing, so I would have to say no. I would have voted but I didn't like any of your choices.

What sort of forms work are you talking about here?

[MightyB]

Red 5,

I can't elaborate too much on this one because I'm pretty negative towards the whole made this up fu thing. It's wierd, but I'm a minority on this issue. I feel like the chi hippies-- you know-- when they complain about the chi thing being taboo on a traditional kfo flagship.

I'm not going to rewrite my arguments too much. I mainly started this thread to start new arguments. KFO seems to be slowing down a little with actual KF related threads and debates. It's either this or another chi thread. Anyway...

You guys that make your own forms suck :D Bunch-o-Wannabees

[Leto]

I don't consider 'shadow boxing' the same as creating your own forms...nor do I consider using techniques from various forms together in combos a new form. To make new 'forms' from bits and pieces of others and your own experiences, and calling it a new style, is just a form of self aggrandizement. To me, this would indicate not a 'genius', but someone without the patience to learn the concepts that the 'real' forms are meant to convey.

So by all means, practice on your own, and adapt the concepts and techiques in the forms to your own style (that's what they're for). But don't call it something new, because you thought some spinning flying roundhouse kicks should be in the middle of a grappling form...

[dezhen2001]

for me i think if you wanna make up your own combinations which work for you, then its cool.

but what are we talking about here?

forms as a collection of principles which need to be practised then applied with a partner? Or forms as a collection of techniques that YOU can use to fight/exercise/aerobic work out etc.?

if its the latter, then i think u can make up your own as its for your own exercise.

If its the former however, then why not just work on understanding what you have already? i mean wing chun has been simplified down to its essence, which is 3 forms - why do we need more? im still doing Siu Lim Tao and still dont understand it well enough to move on to chum kiu even after 2 years... for sure if i wanted i could make my own form up easily as i have 15 years MA experience in total - but what use is it if i dont understand the principles?

personally i think i have more than enough to work on without worrying about making up my own form. But to each their own :)

dawood

[Suntzu]

You guys that make your own forms suck Bunch-o-Wannabees all right u bunch-o-pus$y(I forgot who coined that phrase but I luv it)… bring yo' azz to Ohio next month and see whose the wannabe;) ...

is that what u was looking for…

really tho… OK lets play the definition game… a form is a set of prearranged techniques… right… I practice kung fu and I have learned a form… I practice said form and have an understanding of some of the individual techniques… I take those individual techniques and practice them alone, outside of the practice of the whole form... i practice, drill and spar with those individual techniques and now i can work those like its water... now i put those techniques that i KNOW work for me and arrange them in combination that i now practice in solo form... but i guess if its not in the form that sifu taught me its not Kung Fu... and as what some chi-hippie(sorry chi hippies to call u out like that... yall cool wit me... do YOUR thang) does, says and call it... thats them...


but what are we talking about here? :confused:

[Laughing Cow]

Depending on what the purpose of the new form is it can be good or bad.

If it is simply a new arrangement of the moves within the style in order to understand:
flow
sequence
principles
etc.

Than I simply see it as another training tool that is benefitial.
Some style do this, they ask their students to make their own forms and than they student has to demo and give an explanation as to why, how, etc.

If it is simply to have your OWN form to stand out from somebody else than ....

[Suntzu]

hey Mighty Limp Crotch!!! (aint nothing like a good ol' fashion KFO flmae war)…

and anybody else… lets say u have dude So-and-So… he's in the military… he trains with this KF guy while in high school… he enlists goes to hawaii trains with a judo guy… Bush is in office so off to the middle east he goes… trains with some middle eastern dude with whatever MA is native to that side of the world... also there is a guy who use to box over there and they hit the bag together... OK... Bush's lil temper tantrum is over... they blow sh!t up... he comes back home... he open a gym... what does he do??? he has a mutt of a fighting system that covers all the fighting ranges... puke inducing conditioning... what does he do??? but him calling it KF would be wrong... but just b'cuz it wasn't handed down thru mythological lineage makes it not worthy to learn:confused:...

[MightyB]

Sun's-Ewww

He'd be gay if he called it kung fu. Everybody knows that you have to have divine inspiration after witnessing a coc_k fighting a bull before you can call something kung fu.

[Suntzu]

:D
just that some of these GM's have similar backgrounds to the 'dude' I describe… and don’t have a problem with his KF being KF… but I guess if you’re a chinese dude u get that right… the standardization of KF is really a recent thing… and IMO has done more to harm(albeit, has made it more marketable) KF than some guy *that has REAL skill* misnaming himsef...
Mighty BEEEYOTCH;) :D

[Souljah]

well, I think yes and no really.
I Reckon Home made forms by novices are a waste of time but for someone who really knows what theyre doing and has abit of experiance it can be a sign of a good practitioner - depending on if theyre form was 'well-made' and well thought out.

For someone whos just throwing an exibition I dont really care about how they do it, hey, they wanna throw a show, i'll watch it like everyone else.

But the true essence of the style(s) that person practices and the way they interpret it can be shown in these 'home-made' forms.

Thats why I do agree with it at a certain level

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Leto
I don't consider 'shadow boxing' the same as creating your own forms...

I guess that would depend on howyou look at forms - some styles don't have the long forms seen in many martial arts. Some styles, like shuai chiao have single tecniwue forms. Also, there are people who do spontaneous forms - the sequence they use isn't pre arragned, it's a method similar to shadow boxing. So, in a sense, shadow boxing can fit into the forms category, IMO. It would just be a form that focuses on technique, not principle.

[JusticeZero]

It's fine as long as you don't act like the fact that you put together your own personal training sequence makes you somehow better or a master of your own style ore some s* like that. And if you're planning on teaching in your home art, you're probably best sticking to the core forms, curriculumwise.

[Arhat of Fury]

Most forms were created for a reason, whether its to teach transition, balance transfer or theories. Although most forms have been watered down from their original state, IMO they were created for a reason and shouldnt be recreated in the instance that they may loose their essence.

Granted, if some people want to re arrange to practice at home by themselves for a cardio workout or to keep interest, by all means. but for someone to recreate the form and try to call themselves a master and say to have this and this form in their curriculum is IMO not the way to go about it. They again may have lost the essence of the form.

Just my opinions,

AOF

[Chang Style Novice]

If you've got a good reason for creating a form where there was none before - ego doesn't count - why not?

That said, there are already so many forms covering so many techniques and emphasizing so many qualities there's probably no need for any new ones. The obvious and primary exception being if there's something covered by a form you haven't had a chance to learn, inventing up a form to cover that information seems the reasonable thing to do.

[Suntzu]

It would just be a form that focuses on technique, not principle. how are forms different than shadowing a far as principles are concerned??? Practicing a throw within a 'form' or separate… isn't it still the same throw? Or maybe I'm reading it wrong…

[SanHeChuan]

Creating a new form has to be ok sometimes, if it wasn't then how did we end up with all the diverse forms and style that we have today.

Say you teach two styles, now your no master but you know what you’re doing. You think these two styles complement each other so you create a new form that combines the techniques and principals of both styles in a harmonious way. Now your students are better equipped to use both styles together in an intelligent manner.

Or say that you study one style and you’ve been at for years, but along the way you have pickup a lot of stuff from other styles. Now your style doesn’t really have these techniques but you think that they work well with in your style, so you create a new from that incorporates these new techniques and concepts into the greater whole of your style.

Or say the nature of combat has changed in the last oh…say 100 years, and you want to create a form that deals with the principals and weapons of modern day combat, i.e. guns, knives, bats, hatchets, living rooms, bathrooms, subway stations.

Incorporating new information in to existing styles is how they grow and evolve. The shaolin temple may have had 1500 years to perfect there styles, but weapons change as does geography. There is a difference in northern and southern systems due to terrain. Do you thinks the styles would have evolved to be the same if created on an airplane. You have to build upon what you have.

But frivolous form making is gay.