sup luk dong

[NARVAL]

"sup luk dong" is generally the first set a dragoner learns and arguably one of the foundations of the art.
I think that it is difficult to perform "sup luk dong" correctly. It has to do with rythm/momentum.
How would you express this short set's richness? Has your perception evolved over time?
C'mon dragoners! Let's read your views on this!

[hairywhiteguy]

how does your teacher do it?

[NARVAL]

would u like to know something in particular?:confused:

[hairywhiteguy]

Hey!

Well who's your teacher, what does he look like, while doing 16? Look at a senior student....

Yes, my perception has evolved...'cause if you practice when you wake up, when you sleep, when you poo(mentally do form) things pop out of no where...if you have seen it done right and been shown it RIGHT.

I understand that power generation in dragon is 'different' than in most systems...have you practiced any other systems? 16 is the first form but did you learn rooting, straight walking....

In most cases I'd help you more than this, but, but for dragon helping someone help themselves is for the best.:)

www.lungyingjingjung.com

[NARVAL]

Not looking for help thank you. knowing is not doing. just trying to share.
i see you're a friend of melty. send regards from me.
ciao.

[hairywhiteguy]

I mean no insult to your idea. I in fact appreciate it! If you want to talk about bagau or anything else I'm freggin' game!!! But.....lung ying.....yea. If you have anything else you want to discuss with me..... you can email me at : orderofmasses@hotmail.com
:D ;)

But for real, who is your teacher? How long have you studied?

[triskellin]

a dragoner helps others to help themselves WITHOUT MAKING IT LOOK LIKE A BIG DEAL! :rolleyes: so in the spirit of sharing, my perception of this form has definately changed over time. initially, the forward stepping on the same leg made it appear not to flow so well for me, but after constantly practicing this form and always before other sets, i am now able to move more fluidly whilst practicing it. i cannot say how it would feel for others, but the techniques lead into each other much more easily for me now, which enables the footwork to follow suit (and therefore the rythmn to be more in 'tune'). i practice it much more slowly and with less physical power than i use to, concentrating more on the internal energy and flow. of course the training for it involves alot more than that though.

if you have anything else you want to discuss with me..... you can pm or e-mail me :p

[dezhen2001]

narval was just asking a simple question about a form - why make it such a big deal? if your not gonna answer then why bother posting?

i was interested in finding out more about dragon, but guess no info (apart from triskellins post) is available on this thread.:cool:

dawood

[meltdawn]

i am sure hairywhiteguy is only exhibiting a bit of over-enthusiasm and means no disrespect or challenge.

Narval, thanks for starting a discussion we can comprehend and hopefully it will flourish. i appreciate your kindness and patience. ;)

Triskette, lead the way!

my two cents:

the sup luk set, which has become a beginner set, is definitely more complex than meets the eye.

to a beginner, it is rigid and linear, making for an excellent first grasp of the hands within it. the footwork teaches correct basics, and repetitiveness which helps muscle memory. who wouldn’t say the teaching of a basic straight punch whilst leading from either leg is not effective? the right leg fore helps to balance the most natural of tendencies to fight opposite leg leading, which lends the practitioner a much more encompassing feel of the power being generated from ground-up mechanics.

when the hands are understood on a superficial level, the student can then begin to comprehend the combinations in which they are presented. a rhythm – or lack of rhythm to the western mind – begins to dawn. the footwork now opens up the student to learn tun and toh. once balanced, he begins to see that power can come from directions he never before even considered.

when the student gets into other sets that are not as linear, first he disregards the simplicity of sup luk and basic and for reminder of form and function only. however, he will be constantly reminded in each further set, how many combinations and variations which can be referred back to 16 if only in pattern, such as tun/toh/tun or bridge/lock/destroy.

once other more complex footwork, patterns, and more advanced concepts are introduced up through the intermediate sets, the student will have his eyes opened not to how much is IN 16, but how much ISN’T. simplicity and economy of form become paramount and the set is appreciated anew.

as I continue to explore this set, and attempt to polish it, I find subtle nuances between the hands, not just in them. as the hands open up from form into function, dragon style truly becomes apparent in the set, and I begin to perform it much differently than when I first learned it from my sibak. It is linear only in visible direction, and simple in every positive sense.

IMHO.

[Ao Qin]

Hi all - Meltdawn, great post!

Sup Luk Dong really helps a person develop that "hydaulic" power which Dragon is famous for.

Some observations - I wish that wasn't a spear hand - with the kind of rising / thrusting power behind it, I would fracture or break every bone in my hand if I hit something with it. Bo Bo Toy has the same method, but with a palm instead. What I like about it however, is the emphasis on opening and closing the hand continuosly (biu sao, lop sao).

Practice the Jing San Paan Choi (Turn hit, then lop sao chung choi) right, then turn and do it left, and do it 100x - a great arm workout, cardio workout, and spring power workout!

A lot of people forget to breath out when lop-saoing or hitting.

We don't move on from this form until we can do it right and left side fluidly. Also, try practicing the form when seated - crank the waist - can practice TTFC principles when watching T.V.!

Cheers!

[meltdawn]

Kevin, kudos back!

as for the knife hand, bypass the obvious and take it as the first contact in a combination. it sets up the form in a right/left/left/right hip open and close repitition. any contact wih any part of the hand/arm should be detructive, so taken from the perspective of bridging and not breaking, this hand is ingenious.

[NARVAL]

Hi everyone,
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Great posts!!
One personal thought about the set. The combination of the first move being forward/straight punch and the set being so short forces oneself to get into it completely right away in a bold fashion. Sometime feels like diving into a pool. I guess it also helps build intention and other invisible things.
:p
My 0,02 euros

[Ao Qin]

Hi Meltdawn,

Excellent observation - I learned something today! I'll forever more think of the biu sao as more of a "slashing" / engaging / sticking movement now - makes a heck of a lot more sense (unless you have steel fingers!). On the other hand, it sure is a great feeling driving that biu sao through, powered off the back leg!

Narval - a variation opening to a chung choi, is;

Stand normally - arms thrust out 45 degrees palms down head height (To / Fao), then sink, hands grab and double elbows hitting down (Tun / Chum) sinking, then step forward and punch.

I've only seen this done in our school - perhaps it's a Chow Fook inovation? Anyone start any differently than the standard? Actually, I believe the form starts by extending the hands (palms up), making a fist, then drawing the hands back.

La - Ao Qin

[hairywhiteguy]

Hey! My greatist apolgies to all for the fact that it was taken in that light!!!!

I really meant no harm and I asked him if he wanted to email me privately that he could:D

The reason I responded was cause some times when I personally am stuck to keep doing it over and over breaks through. No matter if I'm working on it in practice or mental practice.

Thanks to all!!

[meltdawn]

Ao qin, nothing that you don't already know... but thank you friend.

Narval,

Boldness, good word! I think the first transition form the entrance hand is very important. According to Kevin, he’s seen a couple of different “salutes” to this form. Whatever they be, from en garde to straight punch is foundation principals. yam/yeung hands and fluid spinal rotation are not easy to comprehended at first, but once learned can prove the one inch punch thingie. This should be the objective of teaching the straight punch in 16, same leg fore. Not easy, but simple! Not natural, but correct.

Hwg,

Lay ‘em down, smack ‘em, yak ‘em, cooooooold got to be! ATL be messin’ wit da head, bruthah!

[fiercest tiger]

Flying High, hehehehe hey you hurt your spine doing TTFC and yuil ma?!

you have to much ging, also does anyone here practise the same sup luk thats in real kung fu magazine or is there many versions like bak mei jik bo kuen?

FT

[meltdawn]

hey FT,

no, actually kung fu is the only thing that has kept my spine together. pain is a great motivator. so is forced immobility. grrrrrrr

every 16 i've seen or discussed seems to be the same.

Ao qin,

when my master demonstrates the hand on a steel table, all of us want to be able to use it as a spear. then we try it on stuff and look like the keystone cops.

[Ao Qin]

Hi FT - yes indeed, one and the same.

MD - are you saying that you step forward with the right leg and punch with the right hand (same leg forward as the arm)? Also, how does your Sifu demonstrate the hand on the steel table? And, what do "Keystone Cops" look like?

I also attach weight to my arms when doing the form - amazing feeling of "heavy" power of course - later when they are off, the arms are quite "springy".

Toodles

[meltdawn]

Ao qin:

" - are you saying that you step forward with the right leg and punch with the right hand (same leg forward as the arm)?"

yes, before each turn.

" Also, how does your Sifu demonstrate the hand on the steel table?"

he strikes it with his fingertips. i was referrring back to your comment about biu ji.

" And, what do "Keystone Cops" look like?"

goofy, bumbling and ineffectual!!

[NARVAL]

Ao Qin,
Interesting alternative opening. We don't do it, so thanks for the tip.

Meltdawn,
Just like Ao Qin, i have learnt something about the bridging potential in Biu Ji.
I must now reconsider under this new perspective all the variations on the"biuji/quti lop sao chung choy" sequence...

Do you all also practice "7 moves" systematically after 16?

Cheers

[Yum Cha]

I just wanted to chime in, good post Melty.

[meltdawn]

yum cha, thank you!

Narval,

the bridge lock and kill pattern is in everything, IMHO. biu ji/so sau/ straight punch or palm/brace/chung choi

when you say 7 moves, i guess i don't understand what you mean, the 7 hands? we drill some combinations, yes.

[NARVAL]

Meltdawn,
For me "7 moves" is a short zig zag set which goes like this :
1/ sokiu (to the left) - 2/ lop sao double puch (to the right) - 3/ kaobi (to the left) - 4/ samtong (to the right) - 5/ moycop (to the left) - 6/ lamda (ahead) - 7/ chungchoy (ahead).
Please forgive my spelling (both in english and phonetic cantonese...).
Cheers.

[meltdawn]

Narval

nice. here's our variation: step left, straight punch; step right, mor cup; step left, lam da; step right, soy kiu. now take it backwards. then reverse the direction. when you start with straight punch with right hand, look which side lam da has to come out. look how mor cup sets it up. i think i have to stop talking now. this ****'s so ****ing cool!!!

[R]

Hey Narval...something in common! We call this sequence the 7 "loose" hands. There is just a very small variation in our two methods.

Cheers, R

[Ao Qin]

Hello all,

I must say, I am very happy to be part of such a wonderful discussion on this subject!

I'm not quite sure we've quite exhausted the Sup Luk Dong discussion - but if we must move on, we must move on.

Before we do so however, I will also say that whensoever I find a new student / training partner both eager and worthy to start their study of Dragon Style, (after the required conditioning drills, etc. of course) I always think (and sometimes say) before we start, and with a certain amount of nostalgia / relish - "this is how we begin..."

Anyway, "Chut Sing San Sow", or as I understand it, "Seven Hand Movements", is:

(L) Lop Sao, (R) Soy Kiew (step out r. leg, then l) - Smash Bridge
Boi Gim (Draw Sword)
Kow Pek (Grab, Chop)
Sam Tong (Three Ideas, or more esoterically...)
Mor Cup (Touch Cover), grab...
Lam Da (you guess!)
Jong Choi (et. al)

This is only the beginning of course, and perhaps the end, of Dragon Style. Seven movements, "extrapolated" 7 to the 7th, etc.

This is at the very least worthy of a new thread!!!

Cheers - Ao Qin

[custom156]

16 & 7

The 'seven movements' as read from the posts here seems familiar to me as and of movements which naturally follow on from each other, but I for one have not been taught or practiced this as a short 'set' on its own.
On the other hand I was taught a short stepping/blocking/striking/turning set before Sup Luk Dong.
Personally, I found that Sup Luk Dong came relatively smoothly, especially after the initial set.
What were/are others taught after Sup Luk Dong in terms of a following set?

[Shaolin Master]

Nice to see the dragons enjoying themselves :)

Though maybe a little late in the seen I just thought the link below to the FutSan LongYing which puts a few pictures to the written descriptions.

16 Dong:
http://www.huangfeihong.com.cn/fskf/show3-6+1.htm

Key tecniques are explainedin detail below :
http://www.huangfeihong.com.cn/fskf/show3-6+2.htm

SamTongGuoKiu and LongYingMoKiu to come soon also.

enjoy

Regards
Wu Chan Long

[meltdawn]

Shaolin Master,

my master is aware that the Huang Fei Hung association has incorporated some dragon into it's curriculum. I am not able to view Chinese on my computer right now, does it say who is the Futshan teacher?

this 16 is not ours. similar, but not same. now i understand why Kevin might have asked about the lead leg fore and punch, as it is not in this set; it comes after biu ji, then so sau, which is also not in this set.

Feirce Tiger asked if any of us had the same as in Real Kung Fu. there was an old issue with Lee Ka Yiu who is a very well known master in Hong Kong, and ours is the same as that set.

it will be interesting to also see how they are teaching sarm tone and the mor kiu.

[Shaolin Master]

Meltdown,

The teacher's name is 'Ceng Gen' who came to FoShan in 1966 and is currently 78 years old. He studied LongXing towards the latter years of LumYu Guai's life.

Ceng Gen commenced learning Choy Li Fut at age 10 and then studiedEagle's Claw before finally studying Dragon Style with Lum Yu Guai. Some of his notable disciples of Dragon include LieZhang, Pan Jiang, Liang Qiou etc......

There are other teachers of LongXing in Futshan unrelated to Ceng Gen.

Regarding disimilarities. I have only seen 3 variations so it doesn't change much at all in comparison to say BM's Jek Bo.

The Real Kung Fu Magazine I have seen some I think,oneof my students back home had a copy I saw the Sup lok Dong which appeared the same as I was familiar with, but there was another issue with Long Xing Mo Qiao and that one seemed to be an abridged version as it removed many reptitions and structures (I think performed by LYG's son). Memory is vague tough as it was many years ago.

[meltdawn]

Shaolin Master

even thought i can't get chinese characters right now, the name across the picture of the 3rd gen teacher is Huang Cheung something something. where do you get Ceng and how do you pronounce that? can you send me characters by email? another school photo there shows Lum Wun Gong so I am inclined to believe this is Wong Gwok Chang, Wong Yiu Chu or Wong Dei Jian, but i am not that familiar with them so cannot say for sure. i am sorry i cannot read chinese on my computer now or i would be able to understand you better.

[triskellin]

it says ceng jen on the page with all the writing and the 3 photos up the top. u'd be interested to know it also lists the names of dai yuk's students other than lam yiu gwai.

btw my 16 is like the one on the site, but the illustrations are a little off. the one in real kung fu mag is like the site as well, so if urs is like the mag, then it should be like the site? the only diff with how we do things is the opening move. we don't lap sao but come out straight from the hips. we also don't move our guard hand back to the hips after any of the grabs, it just stays facing down covering our centreline.

[meltdawn]

Triskellin

thank you. my master pronounces his name more like Jhang Gan. i tried the chinese character plug-in, and it messed up my browser. tried it on another computer and works now.

as for the magazine, maybe i don't have the Real Kung Fu one. mine has Lee Ga Yiu demonstrating 16, and it has the combination of which i spoke, same as mine. who is the other article with? as Shaolin Master said, the differences are small, and interesting, that's all.