View Full Version : Origin of Southern Mantis???

09-13-2000, 01:45 AM
Can someone please educate me on the origin of Southern Mantis.
Thanks from a curious practicioner of Northern Mantis

09-13-2000, 10:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiamiMantis:
Can someone please educate me on the origin of Southern Mantis.
Thanks from a curious practicioner of Northern Mantis[/quote]

09-13-2000, 12:05 PM
Great link! Thanks!

09-14-2000, 12:20 AM
I think this is a good history of hakka arts this person must have done much research to get this much imformation on rare art. i think it take lots of hours to be through history this way. this person must have loved this system very much to devote so much time. where you get so much imformation? i think tree is missing a few branchs but all in all pretty good. how come Wongs branch not all that complete, he was brother of Lam but not much written about his branch. i would like to no more about his branch. who are some of his students? and are they all in egland?

Fruit Trio
09-14-2000, 06:39 PM
Could someone explain how the forms of Southern Mantis develope the body?

09-17-2000, 12:52 PM
the site says there are 57 posts on this subject why cant i find them? i think the forms develope the body like any kung fu. you train the body to do certain thing. after you do these form for long time you develope the strenght do use the system. this is only true if you have a good teacher. he must explain how these excersises go into the body. most people dont stick with this system long enough to use it. most lose interest cause it is not fancy enough. you must have a good shifu to learn how to use this system. in my country hakka hand is respected art. people no it is fighting system. this country not much respect cause most dont understand these arts.

09-17-2000, 03:51 PM
... considering much of it is taken almost verbatim from Hagood's publications. Are you willing to accept this info from a man you were so quick to condemn in previous posts?

09-18-2000, 01:21 AM
i think article is very well done whoever done it. it must take lots of time and research. i think you are mistaken about author cause his name is mr. franco. anyway i dont have nothing against this person you speak of. people let politics get in there way odf education in the arts. this is wrong. knowledge is knowledge where ever it come from. true about something is truth.dont let politics get in your way of learning about certain subject. i made copies of mr.franc article and showed them to my friends and they say it has much good things. they were happy to read article.

09-18-2000, 06:41 PM
Fruit Trio- Jook Lum/Chu Gar aka Southern Mantis and related southern styles use a type of developed short power to deliver damage. The exercises that are practiced tend to build and tighten the body in particular ways.

09-18-2000, 10:10 PM

If you want to check out southern mantis, you can find it at Miami Kung Fu center. Sifu Mario Perez teaches that style, as well as, Hung gar and Southern shoalin.

Fellow Miamian

Its dangerous to think your immortal.

09-19-2000, 04:41 AM
MoQ, you alledged he stifled the flow of info on this site. You call an article (at least partially written by him) a "great link" and a "good article". I don't understand this contradiction (or maybe there isn't one). Please help me understand.

09-19-2000, 01:10 PM
i dont no how you no mr. Hagood had anything to do with article. i am sure miami has taken some of the history from his writing but this doesnt make it bad. author has taken much from lots of peoples articles. but to put them all together and to hold the truth is good.i think you only have a problem with mr. hagood and you dont like him for personal reasons. this is ok, but dont try to take anything away from the writing.

mr. abel who is this guy in miami? and who was his teacher? he teaches a few different systems? this is not good. smp is a complete system and you should not mix with other system. how can he teach all these systems? if you mix this system it should be with other hakka short hand. this is the only way to mantain the struture of the system. you mix to much and you have chop suey.

09-19-2000, 05:24 PM
TAFKAT- I'll do my best to explain to you what I meant since it seems so important to you...
By "great link" I meant that, in the context of posters dropping links, I enjoyed this one and at the time, perhaps caught up in the emotion, I considered it "great". I don't know why, maybe I was exaggerating...
As for the "article", I believe it was compiled, but maybe some was written by Hagood. I must admit I DID wonder why it went on and on about the man's "credentials", and I remember thinking to myself "Jeez, no one says this kind of stuff about Hagood except...Hey wait a minute...What the!??". /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
I think it was a good article in general, but maybe I'm not prejudiced enough.

[This message was edited by MoQ on 09-20-00 at .]

09-20-2000, 04:31 AM
Most Hakka arts are happy to let the myths and legends run wild and free as they help to hide the truth.
I am no friend of Roger's, yet it was he who was mainly responsible for "Letting the Genie Out of the Bottle."
as far as deseminating and publishing i nfo on Jook Lum to the "outsiders".
Mr. Blanco makes no secret of the fact that he indeed used material from Roger. This is no crime.
I feel that Mr. Blanco's site gives an "outsider" a good basic overview on SPM and Jook Lum in peticular.
There will alwa ys be claims and debate over the actual history of SPM. Even the writings of the "Mountain Man" are vague and subject to varying interpretions, so let the buyer beware, and remember...your mileage may vary.û

09-20-2000, 07:26 AM
Since Som Dot is at the top of the lineage chart does that mean that he is the founder of Southern Praying Mantis according to this chart?

09-21-2000, 12:45 AM
I don't think so..... This guy is the real deal. I believe his hung gar teacher is William Chung. I'm trying to find his web site. I didn't say he does hung pak nam siu mei lum gar. He doesn't "mix" the styles. What?!? A person can't know more than one st yle? Concidering that he's been at it for 30 years, I don't think it is a problem. He knows each style as is.

Its dangerous to think your immortal.

09-21-2000, 01:31 AM
LOL thanks

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Most Hakka arts are happy to let the myths and legends run wild and free as they help to hide the truth.
I am no friend of Roger's, yet it was he who was mainly responsible for "Letting the Genie Out of the Bottle."

This is EXACTLY why he is not to be "trusted". He let a Genie out that was not his to let out. He spilled beans to cause a diversion and then swooped back in to stake a claim. He has painstakingly inserted himself into a family that does not want him. Is he on any lineage charts that aren't his device?

[This message was edited by MoQ on 09-21-00 at 06:49 PM.]

09-21-2000, 01:55 AM
mr. able this man to have the skills to teach many system and be high skill at them 30 years is a short time. i dont say this man is not skilled but i say where did he get the knowledge to teach spm. i dont no much about hung ga.

09-21-2000, 07:42 AM
You're from NY and you haven't heard of William Chung? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Its dangerous to think your immortal.

09-21-2000, 12:36 PM
yes mr. able i have been in ny for quite some time. i never heard of a man called william chung teach smp. william cc chen teach tai chi, william cheung teach wing chun but he not from ny. you sure this man teach smp? i dont no about hung ga, i dont no if he teach it. anyway if he teach bunch of system how he can be far in those system i dont no. southern short hand system are different then most system it take a life time to understand and figure out. so many different hands of this system will be hard to learn in 30 years plus other system. this is why people see other people do hakka art and they dont reconize form they say it is wrong. some times it is not wrong they just never see that hand before. many different ways to teach. this why so much politics in this art people think there way is best or only way. when you see short hand do right you will no if it come from good root. may look different but it has the same root.

Self-Thinking Follower
09-22-2000, 02:53 AM
William Chung is hardly a SPM expert of any kind, and his Hung Ga was considered laughable. There is a long time running joke about Chung's aquisition of Hung Ga from Lam Sai Wings books.
In any case, he may of learned the only real CMA he knows from Mark Foon, Sifu but my guess is that that was'nt much. I know for sure, he wont be opening any school in NYC! :P

By the Way, I'm from N.Y.C.

09-22-2000, 06:32 AM
I don't know If we are talking about the same guy or i got the name wrong. But this guy is no fake. Ï

Its dangerous to think your immortal.

09-22-2000, 12:07 PM
mr. able i dont no if mr. chung is fake or not. but you said his student learn all these arts. i dont think so. spm take a life time to learn and you cant teach yourself or learn from some movie. i ask about this guy name william chung and people say he may be the same one who study long time ago under Mr. mark. but they say he not learn much and master mark have some trouble with him. they say he not with him log enough to learn much spm and master mark would not say he is good enough to teach spm. if he was this mr. chungs teacher and he say he not good enough this must be so. i dont no if this guy they talk about is the same bill chung but sound like the same.

09-22-2000, 06:32 PM
I believe there were two brothers David and William Chung who learned the SPM system from Ho Dun (Master Gin Foon Mark's training partner). Both of them taught SPM in Minneapolis in the 1970's under the direction of Gin Foon Mark. There was a disagreement between the Chung brothers (especially William) and Master Mark and they went their separate ways. I don't know if this is the same William Chung you are talking about.

[This message was edited by Bill on 09-23-00 at 11:38 AM.]

09-23-2000, 04:01 AM
Lineage: Sam Dot-Lei Siem-Lam Sang. nullall[QUOTE]

09-23-2000, 04:46 AM
None of Hoo Dun's Disciples ever openly produced a student who was fully booked in Jook Lum.
Norman claims to be teaching for 30 years.
After all this time, and after taking in (supposedly more than their money) more than 30 "disciples", he has not produced a single student who can claim the title "Sifu"
His on-again-off-again partner, Milton has booted his students out and closed up shop.
The other three have remained behind closed doors.

Like others have said, if you are not blood, and you pay money, you aren't getting the goods.

BTW, "Sam", why have you to forsaken poor Chung Yel Jung? Even though he was surpassed, he was in the line as should be recognized.

09-23-2000, 05:58 AM
OK, I'll bite. What has happened to the new generation of JLSPM teachers? It seems like after the generation that learned from Lam Sang, we don't really hear about any new/younger generation of teachers after that. It's been 30-40 years afterall. Are they just underground 'cause the older generation is "keeping it in the family" or are they just not teaching, off doing bigger and better things (maybe they're busy running a dot com somewhere /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)?

Long Live the Fighters!
-Paul Mua'Dib Atreides

Self-Thinking Follower
09-23-2000, 05:58 AM
If he taught for Aaron Banks and appeared in an early karate magazine (circa 70's) claiming to be the one and only successor of Hung Gar Kung fu, then he is the William Chung, I refered to.

Sam, arent you a Wing Chun student of James Cama?
How do you know, who exactly taught who, in Jook Lum lineage? Do you have a second teacher? or did Mr.Cama also recieve certification or blessings to teach Southern Praying Mantis? If so, there are a number of people who posted their desire to learn from a qualified instructor, maybe you can recommend one, for them.

Recently my wife returned from China and brought some books for me and some relatives, one was a book on Jook Lum with details on lineage and basics, It went to my brother in law, but I'll call him, when I get the chance and ask about the lineage.

Once again I'm sorry to say that Chin, Ho-Dun, Sifu was incarcerated right up until he died, it was impossible to teach SPM to his disciples, while he was locked up. Then what did they learn? or who did they really learn the art from? or do they really know the art?

Important questions! /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

09-23-2000, 05:09 PM
Wong Yu Kung is highly regarded under Chung Yel Jung lineage.

Self-Thinking Follower
09-24-2000, 01:15 AM
Sam, did you overlook my questions? I'm sure you must be connected to some teacher of Jook Lum with your knowledge of lineage. Is James Cama also qualified to teach Jook Lum? Or are you a student of some other NYC Jook Lum teacher? Please answer, as you have revealed some connection and your post was adamant in its shortness. Are you a Wing Chun follower, a Jook Lum Follower or cross training in both. If so which is more appealing to your practical side?
From what I seen, both arts use a very different type of body structure and body work , although handwork (techniques) are similar. Can you post some information as a student of both? Perhaps comparing the two, in your humble opinion? Has there been any conflicts in your training, between the Wing Chun Hei Gung and the Jook Lum Hei Gung? or has the physical structure, stance, spinal alignment or hand guards, Wing Chun on centerline- Jook Lum on perimmiters caused problems for you? I will understand if you can't answer these questions.

09-24-2000, 01:55 AM
Self-Thinking Follower:
If you can get info from your brother-in-law, please post the publisher, author and title of the book on Jook Lum. I'm sure many people would love to find a copy, including myself. When was it published? This would be a big help. Thanks in advance. Look forward to seeing the info. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Self-Thinking Follower
09-24-2000, 03:02 AM
I'll try and talk to him soon, but be warned, he doesnt see "eye to eye" with me on martial arts. I feel it's resentment over the fact that I chose a different path than Jook Lum. I might let my wife get the information. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

09-24-2000, 01:06 PM
i think this william is the person mr. able talk about. if so master mark has not to much good to say about this person according to the people i speak to.he most likly not quailified to teach. on lam sang side of lineage they have skipped over chung yel chung, on wong side he is in the lineage. something happen with chung yel chung and he was removed from there lineage. they dont talk about it much cause it cause trouble.lam traveled with lee seim se and this was considered his teacher. this is why lams art looks some different. i think you dont see many teaches in jook lum from lams student is because most are alive and student leave teacher do teaching. when lam was alive you did not here much from his branch. in smp mantis when ever someone open school you will always here about trouble. problem is lam make no one leader before he die. if he did he not make public and this cause trouble. you see this happen in wing chun. lam teach lots of people more then we no.there is all kind of rumor about his teaching of people who are not in his pictures and still have most of his art. these people do exist. i think lam always looking for someone good enough to take over we dont no if he ever find him.

09-25-2000, 09:49 PM
F. Blanco acquired info from his trips to China/HK, articles and info on the web. It would be unfair to say that the majority of the info comes from a single source. F. Blanco does not practice s. mantis. He has no vested interest in s. mantis. He simply wrote a scholarly article on s. mantis. You should feel free to critique his work, but to dismiss it outright would be a mistake in my opinion

William Chung teaches village hung gar and s. shaolin. He doesn't teach s. mantis to my knowledge. I believe that his "satellite" schools are in NJ. Hung gar people in NY know him

09-26-2000, 02:09 AM
thank you for your help about mr. chung. do you no him? mr. blanco must have some interest in spm to take the time to write so much on this subject. when someone write on subject this much they must have a speical interest. does mr. franco study any martial art. cause it would be rare to write this much without interest in any art. j are you mr. franco? how come he dont have much imformation on wong side of the system. he have much on lams.

09-26-2000, 04:57 AM
Roger, er......Yum, don't fumble now that you are near the goal line. Stay in character, and amybe you will learn something. Don't be so **** eager with the questions. We all know your site is the biggest bust of 2000, but learn some patience!–

Self-Thinking Follower
09-26-2000, 07:01 AM
I know Mark Foon, Sifu taught village style Hung ga to free-mason members. Hmmmmmmm, perhaps this william was a free mason? Southern Shaolin is a generic term, that's used for Hung Ga also.

J wrote:

William Chung teaches village hung gar and s. shaolin. He doesn't teach s. mantis to my knowledge. I believe that his "satellite" schools are in NJ. Hung gar people in NY know him

[This message was edited by Self-Thinking Follower on 09-27-00 at 12:10 AM.]

09-26-2000, 07:52 AM
Please leave Mr. Haggod out of your childish games. Lets try to talk about something constructive. Like, has anyone have a picture or seen a picture of Chung Yel Chung or Wong Yuk Kong. If so where, and is it possible to get one.

09-26-2000, 08:22 AM
>thank you for your help about mr. chung. do you >no him?

This sounds friendly, but the rest of the message is highly sarcastic. I do not personally know Mr. Chung. I have never met him. I have met some of his students. One of them studied under William Chung and Gin Foon Mark. He speaks well of both of them.

> mr. blanco must have some interest in spm to
> take the time to write so much on this subject. > when someone write on subject this much they
> must have a speical interest. does mr. franco > study any martial art. cause it would be rare to > write this much without interest in any art.

Mr. Blanco practices n. mantis. While researching n. mantis, he had the opportunity to interview some s. mantis practitioners. He wrote an article and people from the s. mantis camp asked him to remove the article from the web. He complied. Other people who had copies chose to place it on the web. I personally know this info because I have had e-mail correspondences with Mr. Blanco. He is quite easy to find on the internet if you know how to find him. I suspect that your intentions are not good so I will not be the source to give you his e-mail address. I have no interest in s. mantis politics. I do not practice s. mantis. I simply provided some info on the article and its author. This message board is full of inaccuracies.

> j are you mr. franco?

No. There's too much paranoia here.

> how come he dont have much imformation on wong > side of the system. he have much on lams.

Perhaps, he didn't have any source info on the wong side. I'm sure if the Wong side chose to provide him with info, he would have added the info to the article. The some members of the s. mantis camp chose to have him remove the article from the web. After this experience, he had no interest in continuing research on s. mantis. He spends more of his time researching n. mantis. This is his true interest and art. He's done a lot for n. mantis research

09-27-2000, 01:49 AM
j im sorry if i come across like a wise guy. i dont mean to be. sometime i ask to many questions about this system. sorry. i did not mean to offend you. i just thought he spend much time on spm and i wonder why. you have given me a good answer. i wont ask again. i just wondered about wongs side because you dont see much printed about it. i moved to ny in 1977 and this was lams city and there was much talked about him. as for mr. hagood i dont no him. i have been to his website to read it a few times. he seem to no much about spm. we are not friends but we are not enemys either.

09-28-2000, 03:53 AM
Have any of you guys come across some other articles on the history of Southern Praying Mantis? Please post the URLs if you have- I know I would be interested in reading them.

Great Grandmaster Ip Shui (Chow Gar Tong Long) is visiting my school in Australia at the moment and I will seeing him again tonight- any questions anyone wants me to ask?

Self-Thinking Follower
09-28-2000, 05:55 AM
Sure, 1. Did he know Lum Sang, sifu of Jook Lum?
2. Did he ever play hands with Lum Sang or any other Jook Lum Mantis sifu? 3. Does "monkey legs" exsist in his Mantis system? 4. Does "Poison Snake Pole" exsist in his sytstem? and do they have anything like the three levels of 108 points two-person practice? Sorry if these are a lot of questions, I know someone who would be most interested in his answers, and after all, you asked!


09-28-2000, 08:36 AM
Yeah I did ask...

I will ask him about any Jook Lum Sifus he has trained with (as for the rest of your q's I would be utterly lost if he wanted to discuss the answers with me /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ).

09-28-2000, 03:04 PM
Chow Gar does have poison snake pole.

Jook Lum is "rumoured" to have more footwork yet I haven't seen it to compare (I know there's a tape but I'm spending all my money on a car at the moment).
Does Jook Lum have the ground work of Chow Gar - the flying dragon's legs etc?

The 108 was invented by Master Mark to augment jook lum training. Yet another thing I haven't seen. I keep asking if it bears resemblance to Chow Gar fut sao form but nobody answers.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

09-29-2000, 01:12 AM

Where did you hear/read that Master Mark invented 108? My understanding is that, Master Mark developed some different break-downs of Lam Sifu's 108, but he did not create the 108. Disciples of Lam Sifu's first family, that came before Master Mark, also learned Lam Sifu's 108 single man and two man.

I don't think the 108, single man or two man will ever be open to the public!

10-01-2000, 12:06 PM
Thanks for the correction.

Secrecy is a good recruiter. Do you know Chow Gar Fut Sao? Does it compare to Jook Lum 108?