Mark Kerr: "The Smasher"

[fa_jing]

Did you guys see the HBO special last night, "Mark Kerr: the Smasher"? Really fascinating show. Followed his career, his struggle with morphine dependancy, his personal life, his questioning of himself and of the motivation to fight, etc. A very personal look, I think it's brave of him to let people know him like that. Plus lots of interesting footage of the UFC, Pride, etc. Awesome show!

[eulerfan]

Yeah, I saw it. Very good.

I am addicted to America: Undercover.

[ShaolinTiger00]

"The Smashing Machine"

[fa_jing]

:) So is this something that's been out for a while?

[Mojo]

you know what I learned from the show ? I learned that these NHB fighters are a bunch of losers who can't find any other way to make a living. Pretty sad, really.

[fa_jing]

Yes - to some degree. It seemed that would apply to Mark Kerr, Coleman, and most others, but guys like Bas Rutten and Igor V seem to really enjoy it. Of course, no one is going to put his life and health on the line without a big financial payoff - and it appears that there are better ways to make a living and better ways to live your life, for most people. I thought it was funny when Kerr was trying to explain why he fought NHB, and couldn't, really. I'm thinking that is one of the reasons why he produced this show. I was surprised that so many of his personal moments were filmed.

A couple other things:
1. NHB can be really hard on the loser, both physically and emotionally. It was funny how Kerr brutalized so many opponents, then when he finally experienced his first loss, he breaks down crying. I can empathize with that - not the crying bit - but that when you lose a match and get hurt, you really question why you are doing what you are doing. And the flip side of it is that he's made other guys feel far worse. So he can dish it out, and not take it. But you can tell that he feels some remorse at times.

2. NHB is clearly not the best laboratory for determining a style-vs-style debate. Neither were Hong Kong rooftop fights, from what we've seen. In the case of NHB, the body types are so different from what is needed for Kung Fu. Yet, of course, that body type may be able to take a smaller Kung Fu guy's best shot then dump him on the ground -- but my point is, most of us do not want or can not have a body like that. It's clear that what helps some of these guys fight, are styles with basic swinging and thrusting motions and lots of offense - can you imagine Mark Kerr trying to develop whipping power, or using spinal bows or something? His back looks like the muscles can barely fit where they are. Another thing I noticed was that even minimally skilled stand-up guys are able to keep grapplers off with punches, and two grapplers may stand up and trade blows for a while. I'm surprised that the combatants are not shooting double-legs at each other more often- since we seem to hear all this talk about how great shooting is - -these are some of the top wrestlers in the world, yet have trouble closing the gap sometimes against a striking defense. The other reason that NHB isn't the best laboratory is that the conditions and the situation are too different from a street fight.

[fa_jing]

It's on again tonight at 10:00 PM Eastern

[rubthebuddha]

tape it for me, will ya fa_jing? i'll be in class.

[LEGEND]

That's why the sport is called MMA( Mixed Martial Arts ) and no longer NHB...too many rules in MMA. One of the answer to your question is that everyone is now CROSSTRAINING. It's no longer that simple to shoot in for a double leg and kill the guy on the ground. The standup fighters are training hard on sprawling and other tactics to avoid being taken to the ground...and when taken to the ground they are escaping the positions to get back up! Look at BAS RUTTEN. He's such an incredible striker...a natural. They need to do a documentary on him...and his evolution. The playing field for standup fighters and grapplers are now even. No longer one style dominates.

[fa_jing]

Yes, I noticed that non-wrestlers were escaping or nearly escaping from the bottom position, even against the best wrestlers.

[shinwa]

I watched that, I'm a huge fan of Pride and the like, but the fact that he fought while on pain killers throws all ofmy respect for him outof the window. I mean come on, he barely even feels what the guys are hitting him with, that's weak. Champion my arse.

[LEGEND]

Shinwa...this is sumthang new for you??? Morphine and pain killers has been used in every sport known to man. Football players take it to kill their aching hits...hell I read of an iceskater who took it before a competition so he couldn't feel a tear on his groin muscle. Taking pain killers doesn't enhance a person ability to take hits. That's just false! It doesn't even lessen the effects...what it's suppose to do is make the current injury feel less...NEW ONEs that are getting applied to your body need does not apply. LOL

[shinwa]

Of course it isn't new, I know what they do. Kerr himself in the docu said he wondered if he could do it without the painkillers. They do numb him to a point, I took them when my knee wa sbanged up, I remember what it "felt" like. They aren't limited to any one spot. I don't care how common it is in the sport, in my opinion it's weak to fight with any kind of chemical crud in your system that covers weaknesses.

Oh and they're actually banned in boxing and the like, heavy contact sports. So uh

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by fa_jing

2. NHB is clearly not the best laboratory for determining a style-vs-style debate. Neither were Hong Kong rooftop fights, from what we've seen. In the case of NHB, the body types are so different from what is needed for Kung Fu. Yet, of course, that body type may be able to take a smaller Kung Fu guy's best shot then dump him on the ground -- but my point is, most of us do not want or can not have a body like that.

That type of body is not a pre-req for mma. There is no requisite body type anymore than there is one for kung fu...

Another thing I noticed was that even minimally skilled stand-up guys are able to keep grapplers off with punches, and two grapplers may stand up and trade blows for a while. I'm surprised that the combatants are not shooting double-legs at each other more often- since we seem to hear all this talk about how great shooting is - -these are some of the top wrestlers in the world, yet have trouble closing the gap sometimes against a striking defense.

they are fighting other mma guys - crosstraining killed the "grappling is superior" concept years ago. Shooting is great. But like eye gouges and phoenix eyes, they are not the be-all-end-all


The other reason that NHB isn't the best laboratory is that the conditions and the situation are too different from a street fight.

That's true. Right now though there's nothing closer to it other than actually being in a street fight... While it's not the best laboroatory for self defense, it is tops for testing yourself. same goes for boxing, san shou and thaiboxing. If you are trying to test yourself against others, sport fighting is where it's at.

[Merryprankster]

Shinwa--no amount of painkillers stops a knockout. And if you look at his face after Igor knocked him down, it looks a lot like the fight went out of him there.

I believe he was addicted to nubain. I have also heard that he is now off it.

fa-jing, it's interesting that we took different lessons away from this documentary.

I took away the following:

1. If you can't get off the bottom in an inferior position, you can't fight. You seemed to focus on Kerr not closing the gap on Igor, or Coleman (who ran out of gas in the Mo Smith fight, and stopped executing-Coleman was later found to be hypoglycemic), not getting in on Smith. I noticed that people trapped on the bottom who couldn't get out from underneath got mauled.

2. If you can't defend the takedown, you can't whack somebody around safely. Igor Vovchanchin is notoriously hard to take down from an upper body clinch, and difficult to keep on his back. He's not afraid to throw down because of that. Mo Smith's fight against Coleman is another example. Your observation might need to be amended-- Grapplers facing strikers who can't be taken down like children have a more difficult time getting through a barrage.

3. Attributes matter.

Finally, as Seven pointed out, these guys are all crosstrained. I'd also note they are tops in their field. I would also be hesitant to call some of these strikers "not skilled." In some instances, it's a bit like calling David Tua unskilled. Some guys (like Igor) have ugly, brawling styles. They also hit like freight trains (like Igor). Others are more refined (like Guy Mezger or Mo Smith). Other guys are, as you pointed out, just sloppy.

And to re-emphasize Seven's point, there's no such thing as a successful body type. I bet that with the right training, Mark Kerr could develop the whipping power you discuss. The idea that heavily muscled means inflexible or brutish and awkward is absurd. The reason these guys are heavily muscled to some degree or other, depending on the person, is because they are in shape. Randy Cotoure and Semmy Schlit have VERY different body types from Kerr and Coleman, and are quite successful. I was a 6 ft tall 160 lbs wrestler in high school. Not your stereotypical short squaty guy, and I did just fine for a lazy ass *******.

Seriously though, if you want to watch textbook "How to beat a grappler by staying on your feet," watch Chuteboxe fighters, esp. Vanderlei Silva, and Mo Smith's fights.

It's a matter of making the best of the tools you've got, really.

[Braden]

Ok, could anyone know what's up with steroid users using nubain clue me in? I'm really interested; PM me if you want.

As far as I can tell, nubain is similar to morphine (which was also mentioned in this thread). These drugs are just like heroin; they're not famous for making people particularly physical.

Most people will vomit profusely after taking this stuff, and it plugs you up over the long-term like nobodies business. In the mean time, it makes you weak and lethargic. Not exactly the effects athletes are after.

I can understand using them post-competition and post-training for pain. But pre-competition and pre-training? :confused:

[shinwa]

Shinwa--no amount of painkillers stops a knockout. And if you look at his face after Igor knocked him down, it looks a lot like the fight went out of him there.

Yeah he went out for a few seconds after that knee to the top of the head by Igor, but still dealing with pain mid match plays into all kinds of mind games. Something he doesn't really have to worry about since he's doped up and going numb. Messing with weak spots is what fightings all about, and he barely feels em :confused:

What a gip.

[Merryprankster]

Braden, I imagine that it kinda depends on what you do with it. Dose tolerance would come rapidly, as with any morphine analogue.

You would take a dose probably initially to mask pain of some kind, probably during training. The opioid effects of slight detachment would also come into play w/regards to the psychological factor. There's a big difference between the effects caused by a dose to get high and a "therapuetic dose." These guys are taking just enough to numb their pain, not enough to get stupid.

He was probably on nubain (if he was) to mask pain originally so he could train harder, longer...and found withdrawl worse than taking it. I rather doubt he did it in doses high enough to cause the sleepy, lethargic effects. On the other hand, I bet he was constipated a lot :D.

[Braden]

Yeah... I found on a site that these guys start with as low as 5mg of it spread across a day (very low dose).

Therapeautic doses of morphine make me vomit and very drowsy. There's no way I could lift while on it. Although I suppose there's so many variables involved...

I just never imagined someone taking opiates to train through tha burn... crazy kids!

I do find people here have peculiar notions of drugs all the same though... there's been a bunch of threads here about fighting people on drugs, claiming that someone strung out on heroin has superhuman strength and endurance, and is prone to fits of rage! :D

[fa_jing]

Kerr said he was shooting up 10 times a day. I totally thought it affected his personality. Nice scene where he's trying to cop a score form the Japanes doctor after the Igor fight. Plus, lots of vague references to "partying" - I'm sure other drugs were involved.

How did he go from weighing 260 lbs. as the UFC champ down to ~225 before Pride? (107 kilos, he said) Stop taking roids or something?


Regarding the whole style thing, yes I believe the size of his muscles actually would get in the way of certain types of movement, and although he is fairly fast for such a big guy, I didn't see much suppleness. It kindof looked like his torso and arms moved in a solid block, as one unit- - which is only one way to move. I know that there are lower weight divisions, but the heavy weight guys are discussed all of the time.

I agree that most guys in NHB are very skilled, just noticed that even wrestler guys (less skilled strikers) were able to use striking defensively against grappling.

Agree that NHB is the closest legal thing to a streetfight that does not make use of an imaginary opponent.

Think that a lot of these guys would benefit from some in-depth study of a traditional art. Can you imagine Mark Kerr using Hsing-Yi? Some have this experience already, and aren't lacking in this respect. Some are so good at kickboxing that it wouldn't help them much, but many are in the catagory where it would help them.

Think that most arts that have lasted to be over 50 years old, battle tested, etc. are darn good arts and have their strong points, be they western, eastern, sport-oriented, weapons-oriented, etc.

[Qi dup]

I thought it was a great program. I've seen it twice now, once sunday and once wednesday. I think he looked awsome after he shaved his head for the pride fight. So, I decided to shave my head last night. I was also saprised at all the personal notes in the move. If you ask me he should have stayed the hell away from that woman before those fights. I guess he really just need someone, but i don't know. Maybe it looked worse on the movie.

[FatherDog]

Haven't seen it. Kerr has had his problems throughout his career. I'm less a fan of his than I am of Coleman and some other personal favorites, but he's still a heck of a competitor.

Incidentally, with regards to body types, look at Sakuraba... he's got the body type of a janitor, and he's got one of the best MMA records in the world.