Something that must be said!

[Losttrak]

When you are on your back and you flip up to your feet... do you call this a KIP UP?

I had to say something because it this isnt something particular to my school anymore... I just saw someone else call it this from another state so it must be epidemic.

The other day I was talking to this lovely asian girl who was interested in attending a martial arts school... She was very experienced in the martial arts and was very critical... a hard sell since she was a die-hard 5 Animal stylist. Next thing you know the students, led by an AMERICAN asst instructor, began doing the technique mentioned above. She said, "What is he calling that technique? a KIP UP? What the hell is that?" Petty as it may be... she didnt join. Anyways, here it is in a nutshell... If you have an asian/foreign instructor who doesnt speak English as a first language.... chances are they pronounce KICK UP as KIP UP. Recognize it for that... dont make yourself into a mindless sheep by pronouncing it JUST the way he says it.. simply because he is the master. Plz... for the sake of your dignity... Ok I am done.

[Souljah]

does it really matter what people call it as long as you know what it is? kip up/kick up/flip up, there arent many more are there?? so if you know these 3 are all ways of saying the same thing whats that matter?

[Nevermind]

I have actually seen it written as "kip up". There is a video instructional by Stuart Quan on acrobatic martial arts techniques. In the advertisement, it is actually mentioned as one of the techniques taught on the tape. It was spelled "kip up". I have heard others refer to it by this name as well. I always understood it to be the proper name. Although, I didn't understand why it got that name. I guess "kick up" would be a more accurate term. Never knew what a "kip" was. But oh well.....

[apoweyn]

yeah, i really don't think that having a foreign instructor has anything to do with it. the move is called a kip up in every reference i've ever seen.

if she didn't join on that basis, she's kinda goofy. i'm guessing she had other reasons.

back to the kip up. you're suggesting that people call it that because their foreign teachers called it that? and they called it that because they're mispronouncing 'kick up'?

nah. i don't buy it. that means that foreign teacher has a move, he then learns the english term for it (kick up), proceeds to butcher that term (kip up), and then passes it along to his students that way. i very seriously doubt that's what happened. certainly not given how common the term is. that would almost require that EVERY foreign instructor buggered up the term and EVERY student went with it. that seems very unlikely.


stuart b.

[Losttrak]

Ok with that argument I would have to ask... did the woman who visited the class understand? Would anyone understand outside of the school or events where such a term would commonly be used understand what a KIP UP is? Might they understand better what a KICK UP is? If only for the sake of communication.. say it correctly.. if not the sake of being correct.

[Losttrak]

Well ok... quick question... is Kip Up a chinese term converted into Roman characters like feng shui? Or is it translated from Chinese into actual American words?


If its translated into the phonetic Roman Characters, I just asked my kung fu-savvy girlfriend (who speaks Mandarin/Cantonese/Taiwanese) who is from Beijing and has an abundance of martial artists in her family. Soon as she gets off the **** phone I will find out whether she can correlate any actual Chinese term to KIP UP. The fact that its soo regularly used means its prolly not an obscure remote dialect.

If its actually translated into English words, ask yourself... "What the FUUG is a KIP?"

[apoweyn]

alternatively, you could check a dictionary or search the web.

'kip down' british slang meaning to go to bed.

that would making a 'kip up' simply getting up. which is a pretty apt description of that move, yeah?


stuart b.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I think Kip Up is a gymnastics term, not a CMA term.

[ShaolinTiger00]

its a kip up!

souljah - Oye Cubano - Que Vola?

[Losttrak]

I don't know if anyone is that excited to get outta bed.... =p

Well jeez... I can see this is going to go further into the Etymology of a word than I wanted to go. I guess if its correct then... wow... where the hell did they get KIP from? Very curious to know...

However we need to consider the possibly of being subjected to "misinformation gone amok." When does misinformation become truth? When more people believe it is correct than those who think it is wrong? There are too many societal metaphors in this statement for me to wade thru.

[SanHeChuan]

My theory is that someone, probably a gymnast combined kick and flip, so instead of saying kick-flip up, they just said kip up.

[apoweyn]

losttrak,


However we need to consider the possibly of being subjected to "misinformation gone amok." When does misinformation become truth? When more people believe it is correct than those who think it is wrong?

well, i'm going to be a little b*stardly about this, chief. misinformation runs amok when people don't check their facts before tackling the issue. that's what you did here. you cast judgment on people for following their teachers like sheep, refer to the 'problem' as an 'epidemic', and then resolve to check less relevant sources when more relevant ones are available.

that wouldn't be nearly as irksome, mind you, if you hadn't managed to insinuate that the rest of us were somehow being intellectually lazy for adhering to the term. it's all in the delivery, my old fruit.

here's the result of my research: british slang for lying down, taking a nap, etc. "i'm going to kip down for a little while."

also british slang for 1,000 pounds (kilo + pound = kip). used to describe dead weight, which may provide the connection to taking a nap. making oneself 'dead weight' for a little while.

so, if that became known as a kip down, it's not difficult to imagine that when some gymnastics instructor needed a name for a move that involved going from a lying position to a stand position, 'kip up' seemed like a reasonable term to use.


stuart b.

[Losttrak]

SanHeChuan: Sounds reasonable

[IronFist]

What the hell are you talking about? I know I ready it quickly, but the original post didn't make any sense to me :confused:

I've always heard it called a kip, or a kip up. I was trying to do one one day when I was younger and my dad goes "are you trying to do a kip?" I didn't even know what it was called back then. I've always heard it called that.

btw, I still can't do one, but I haven't tried in a while.

IronFist

[David Jamieson]

does this thing actually exist in traditional martial arts?

I've yet to see a traditionalist do this move.

after all, what is the purpose of it? To spring back up into that waiting fist? hahahahahahaha.

cheers

[Losttrak]

There is actually a combat version where you actually kick straight up with both feet (flexing your abs so as to lift your body) and once your body lifts off the ground.. you push with your hands by your ears. When timed right, it really works well as it sets your feet almost exactly where your back was... I am 6'5" and I overdid it my first time and landed on my knees before i knew it... to give you an idea of how quick and potentially effective it is.

[GLW]

Yes it does exist in traditional styles - northern has it (Cha Quan- Zha Quan for example). Ditang (ground boxing) the traditional version has it.

The term kip up is from gymnastics.

The term for it in Chinese translates as Fish Jumping. It is a mental image of the way a fish flops around when you take it out of the water and throw it down....

As for the use, I have see it used to get up quickly to avoid being cut by a sword chop down....It is just another tool that can be used. That doesn't mean that you WOULD use it.

[Waidan]

I've always known it as as kip-up. I've also seen it as flip-up, but kip > flip. Regardless, from now on it's "fish jumping"...that's too good not to use.

[vamierr]

Who cares what it is. it is pretty much useless! i've seen a guy do this a tournament before, he looked like a moron because EVERY time he lost his balance or fell he would do the kip up move and look like a RETARD. it takes so much more energy to perform then if u were to just GET UP off the ground like a normal person. here's an idea... DONT FALL DOWN

[vamierr]

looks cool, a nice "trick" , but best left for a gymnist (however that is spelled). not much application for a fight, especially since u look REAL stupid if u get ur as$ knocked out after showing off a move like that

[David Jamieson]

GLW-

For the sake of argument, I have to say that this move doesn't exist in any of the formal sets of Cha Chuan Northern style Kung fu.

At least not in it's traditional methodology.

How do I know this? I possess the complete illustrated system and have been immersed in the study of this style for more than a year since moving away from my former school where I studied traditional southern and northern Shaolin kung fu for 7 years.

In the forms i was taught and from what I have learned about CMA, JMA and KMA over the last 27 years is that this move simply doesn't exist in traditional methodologies.

What I do know is that it may have been incorporated in the modern wu shu as came out in the seventies (not the current curriculum), but I can't be sure as I do not study modern wu shu.

The so called "kip up" is a modern performance phenom because it "looks cool". It is not in the formal curriculum of Cha Chuan and anybody who studies formal traditional Cha Chuan and not the wu shu version will confirm this.

anyway, I haven't seen it anywhere but in show karate and modern wu shu.

so, that's my argument. :)

cheers

[Mizong_Kid]

the ki up...jet li does that move to perfection in legend of fist! amazing!


losttrak, r u learning mizong? if so how long hav u been learning for?

[Losttrak]

Mizong Kid:

Been learning since 95 with Johnny Lee in Dallas. So I would say I have reached amatuer status. lol Mizong has always captured the spirit of what fighting should be to me.

[GLW]

Formal sets is one thing...the training in the system is another.

Learning from the lineage of Grandmaster Wang Ziping, I know that they are one of the basic techniques taught. Not all techniques trained are in the routines in a system.

For example, the leg swirl to a standing position is also trained. Never saw that one in any routine either....but it is trained.

As for TRADITIONAL...one of the mainstays of Traditional Zhaquan is that it adapts and takes what it finds...not in the routines but in training methods.

For example, Grandmaster Wang Ziping's training method was quite modern... He would have his students do heavy work out with weights and such (and there are specific weight training methods) on one day. the next day would NOT be weights. Every day would have stretching (Ya Tui) and things like Tan Tui. the idea was to keep interest up and to allow the body to recover. He was doing this in 1920's.

About the only technique I have NOT encountered in SOME form in a traditional set (barehand, weapon, fighting, etc...) is the Butterfly Twist...where you start into a butterfly and then wrap the arms and legs together in the air.sort of a twizzler body move.

Now to talk about what is more likely to be used is a completely different subject :)

[shinwa]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
does this thing actually exist in traditional martial arts?

I've yet to see a traditionalist do this move.

after all, what is the purpose of it? To spring back up into that waiting fist? hahahahahahaha.

cheers

Yeah, but you know, the odds of a fist actually being there are slim. It's like telling a kickboxer that when he kicks high he's gonna get kicked in the suppporting leg. yeah, right.

[David Jamieson]

For example, the leg swirl to a standing position is also trained. Never saw that one in any routine either....but it is trained

the front broom sweep to a standing position on the sweeping leg is in the formal sets. is this what you mean by "swirl"?

the tornado kick, jumping front snap kick, jumping double split kick are also in the routines of Cha Chuan along with a high side kick and a few other difficult kicking techniques.

I know that in the seventies, Cha Chuan was used as a bench mark for the creation of the PRC wu shu routines and when they were changed again in the nineties, many people thought the modified Cha Chun/wu shu was the original.

It does get a bit grey over time doesn't it? :)

I also understand that one teacher to the next will add flavour or modify flavour or will blend flavours from the totality of the learning they have acquired over their time training.

Cha Chuan being one of the more "complete" systems of kungfu to survive to this day has been affected, but the "old" style Cha Chuan system is fairly straight and clean in it's approach as a long arm fighting system. It bears a lot of resemblance to the North Shaolin I was taught which consisted of a few of the Bak Sil Lum forms. I understand that Kyu Yu Cheong had learned either all the Cha Chuan system or some of it, which interests me, because it is this training that is aiding in my understanding of Cha Chuan.

kinda weird how it all comes together :)

anyway, thanks for the point / counterpoints GLW, it's all food for thought in the big scheme of things for me.

cheers

[GLW]

The one I mean is kind of like a move you see in break dancing where you spin and then the legs twirl up while your head is down on the ground..and then you push up and end upright. Not a great explanation but the best I can do...:)

The interesting thing about Zhaquan (Cha Quan or cha Kuen) is that in the west, most of the people who had been around for a while that knew it tie in some way back to Ku Yu cheong.

Even wierder is how a number of non-northern or whatever stylists tie back to him. I know one instructor who does Choy Li fut and Wing Chun. He claims to teach a northern shaolin system as well but it is either so infected with southern or IS a southern fist...of course you couldn't tell him that :)... But anyway...He claims to also teach Iron Palm...adn has pictures at his school of Ku and claims to have a lineage that goes back to him for Iron Palm.

Having a lineage that goes to Grandmaster Wang Ziping, I can see a number of similarities in others Zhaquan, but also a number of differences as well.

The best I can tell is that even in the traditional old school Zhaquan, there is a lot of room for variation.

That combined with the difficulty in TRULY getting the full extension that it requires in routines so the tendon strength is there makes me wonder if some of the variations were just people copying their teachers...but learning when there teachers were older and less likely to do the full extension than when they were younger.

[Mizong_Kid]

since 95.....so what level on black sash are you then?

i hav just started recently......been doing it for a few months now....well nearly a year actually......i am orange sash.....soon i shall be green.....i am learning from master lu jun hai! i think is the heir to mizong at the moment....in the whole world i think.

hhhmmm......well the kicks in mizong are very nice....look flash but not all of them are practical.

[Losttrak]

Mizong Kid:

Alot of the kicking you do in class is for the sake of conditioning. The kind of training you will do will test you in every possible way so you can do things that most peeps cant do. Every time you do a kick, no matter how unpractical.. think of what its training and how it may strengthen you. Then once you have mastered all your tools... you can make a better assessment of what is usable and what isnt. Remember that Mizong is all in the footwork and deception. Lost Track... think of what it means. Without supreme body control you cannot truly fight with formlessness and power.


As far as my rank, I stopped testing at blue-purple due to the fact I was a poor waiter who lived off stale bread from the restaurant cuz all i wanted to do was train instead of pick up extra shifts. lol So in this case, my time studying may be a better indication of my skill. I now teach a Mizong combat class(combat using our principles as I have learned it) at Master Lee's school as well teach students of my own.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shinwa


Yeah, but you know, the odds of a fist actually being there are slim. It's like telling a kickboxer that when he kicks high he's gonna get kicked in the suppporting leg. yeah, right.

actually, when I was in muay thai, that happened quite a bit.

[Mizong_Kid]

losttrak,

thats interesting........i never looked at it in that way......but i guess all that kicking will strengthen one in the long run.....


you know how some styles supposedly suit certain people of certain builds and sizes......what do u think about mizong?
when i first read about mizong i thought it would suit a skinny kid like myself.....i mean i am reasonably flexible.....but i realised mizong is very hard work indeed....

but i intend to keep it up as i am more attracted to the idea of northern kung fu than southern.

so how often do you stretch? do you bounce when you stretch?

[Losttrak]

Even those who are considered "short" can develop strength and muscle just like those who are tall. Keep in mind that many styles of kung fu was created by those who had to defend themselves against those who were stronger. As far as Mizong is concerned, its mobility is more suited for a smaller person with lower center of gravity than someone 6'5". I myself have fought people much short than me and they have eaten my lunch simply because their timing/distance is perfect. So as far as a style, I think you have chosen well... You cant change who you are... so all you can do is work the hardest you can. I dont believe that any time is wasted. Stick with it and truly immerse yourself into it. Then everything will open up to you.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by vamierr
Who cares what it is. it is pretty much useless! i've seen a guy do this a tournament before, he looked like a moron because EVERY time he lost his balance or fell he would do the kip up move and look like a RETARD. it takes so much more energy to perform then if u were to just GET UP off the ground like a normal person. here's an idea... DONT FALL DOWN

Might be hard for YOU but for me it doesn't waste any energy at all. It's the weight of your fall that's supposed to bring you back up like a spring.

Well as far as in fighting goes. I would only see it as a method of springing back up quickly if you are knocked down, not back into a punch however. Or as an evasive move if slashed at the legs but who knows. To whomever said it looked gay , it's doesn't matter how it looks jsut as long as it works for them. Most non bjj guys say that bjj looks gay but it works for them doesn't it?

Just because you can't use it effectively doesn't mean other peoople can't.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"It's like telling a kickboxer that when he kicks high he's gonna get kicked in the suppporting leg. yeah, right."

i go for the supporting leg instinctively any time someone kicks. ill eat the kick to get to the back leg if i have to. i cant get it every single time but im not unscuccessful with it either. the higher somene kicks the better my odds.

[Mizong_Kid]

losttrak

so you spar in your classes?

do you learn any weapons?

do you practice horse stance?

what exercises help to increase ur jump? can you do butterfly kick?

[Losttrak]

Mizong:

I started the sparring class because I wasnt getting enuff sparring in class. If I dont fight frequently then I get too anxious... =)

Yeah we learn all sorts of weapons... saber, kwan dao, staff, spear.. all the classical weapons plus a few other bizarre ones...

Yeppers, I do practice all my stances. In kung fu, you MUST have strong legs and supple back. Those are the 2 most important things...

Only jumping increases jump... and technique. There are some exercises that help simulate a jump but.. if you have room.. just do it. Jump over chairs, staves held by classmates. Jumping drills train more than just your body. Its also a confidence factor. I have a rep for being the only guy to actually dent the metal frames of our roof tiles lol. That was due to a trick i learned in jumping. Alot of people hop when they plant their feet before a jump. I learned, instead of hopping, do a light, horizontal step forward and plant... then leap. It will change the kinetic energy from a downwards movement to a forward movement... thus decreasing the inertial forces that will oppose your upward movement. As a result, your jumps will soar.

Yes I can do a butterfly kick but its never been something I have looked good doing... I can get up but it looks more elegant when some of the smaller peeps do it. Plus, I think there are more practical techniques to work on in regards to fighting than that kick so I tend to focus on those more.

[Mizong_Kid]

losttrak,

practical......do you mean the other kicks?

i havent been learning that long and at the moment i am not hardcore training though i wish i was. but from the kicks i practice and the forms i have learnt so far......i.e the ten tan tui and my current form at orange sash......i have picked things out which i think could be very easily used in a real situation......i.e block and strike (swipe ur arm across ur face, grab, groin or knee kick)

there is also an arm break in one of my forms as well which looks so cool.

haha i like the idea of launching myself over chairs and stuff.....i guess that will increase the confidence too.i never actually thought of that.....thanks for that tip.

you are right about the strong legs.......i am a small guy......but skinny. u r right......the best build for mizong is def to be small but stocky.....well not too stocky!

so what are ur stretching routines ??? do u bounce when u stretch?

[Losttrak]

I do relaxed leg raises up to the point where i feel the stretch. Make sure you arent getting a hard stretch... just to the edge where you begin to feel it slightly pull. Bouncing is BAD BAD. I generally swing up and out like a crescent kick... laying down like a sidekick at the end to get the full range of motion. Then I sidekick a wall and hold my leg there raising my body up like a sidways situp. After 30 seconds of stretching, I then rotate the heel down so its like a thrust kick... and stretch. Then I turn to sidekick again and "walk" my leg up higher, rinse and repeat.
The trick to kicking is teaching your body to relax and allowing your muscular inhibitors to "let yourself go." Through relaxed stretches can you can greatly increase your dynamic flexibility. For the record, bouncing is no good... Your body remembers things during its most intense moments.... if your body is given stimuli that says "I am resisting!!!" It will constantly resist. Remember that stretching is a gradual lengthening of muscle fibers... by stretching and yanking you are only lengthening/tearing muscle fibers at the weakest link. Basically you will keep tearing the same spot in your jerking/abrupt motion. This will cause you to actually LOSE your flexibility as your body is forced to constantly heal as quickly as it can... by building up scar tissue. The scar tissue, until worked out, will lose all its tensile reserve (stretch) and become like dead fibers. Thats why when you pull or strain a muscle... its very important to rest and do therapy or your flexibility will prolly NEVER EVER be the same. Dont continue to train or you will be killing your own potential.

[Mizong_Kid]

lost trak,

i will ask about that........bcoz i am sure i have seen my master bouncing up and down when he is stretching.....

i did pm geneching about it....and he did say the "chinese love to bounce" and that westerners preferred not to...

[Losttrak]

Keep in mind that many training methods are passed down from generation to generation with little regard to recent studies, etc. If someone said that doing "Taming the Tiger" caused undue stress on the knee joint, would they stop teaching it? Some old habits are hard to break. I wouldnt hold it against him as being perhaps too traditional... or maybe he just doesnt know better? Keep in mind whether it be kung fu or otherwise... learn what you can from some people and that will be enuff just so long as you keep learning, right? Uh oh... time to teach...

[Mizong_Kid]

well his is the heir of mizong.....i think he knows exactly what he is doing.i will ask about it......but if the bouncing is done rapidly then of course you are asking for trouble. but if done slowly in a calm rhythem i think it is fine.

but as it is i dont regularly bounce when stretching.....


today was frustrating day at class......i felt like i did everything so ****! i think i hav to start going extra early to class again to practice......

for some reason today i wasnt confident performing my form in front of master and everyone else.....

[Losttrak]

Lol yeah tell me about it... Who is comfortable with their performance ever? I think if you think you ever got something 100% right... then you are dillusional.

[GLW]

There are quite a few "Traditional" training methods that many 'masters', 'grandmaster's, and heirs to lineages and such use.

Couple of things to keep in mind... Very few of said masters are experts in things like orthopedics, kinesiology, and such. Even if they may happen to be good in Chinese Medicine and bone setting, they may or may not know about a number of things to do with muscles and such.

Training methods are old and may not be in align with current knowledge. A number of forward thinking instructors (as early as say the 1920's) began to use new knowledge and change how they trained to fit with this new knowledge. However, not all do.

This is just like the teachers in public schools... If you read the information on successful teaching methods, virtually NO teacher follows the guidelines for teaching children the best way.

Modern research has shown that a lot of old training methods are quite effective. Similarly, the research shows that some of the old methods are pretty bad.

The information to be really suspicious of is that which comes from people somehow associated with things like pop health clubs and such. They will say to avoid certain methods...not because they are not good if done correctly. they avoid them because the probability is that their members will do them wrong and cause an injury...and then... a LAWSUIT. This information then gets taught in the Universities...because where else will people with those degrees find a job...