Tai Chi + Wing Chun [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Marky

01-15-2003, 04:58 PM

Hi Mtod1,

I've been practicing Yang taiji for about 6 months now and wing chun for about 4 years, so my opinion is based on that limited experience.

Taiji techniques do not use muscle. Defensive movements absorb the opponent's energy, which generally means they are "drawing in" a person's attack. At the same time, offensive movements resemble strikes of a whip; you take the opponent's energy into you, and redirect it into your attacking hand for the strike. Footwork and rooting are keys to generating additional power as well as efficiently retaining the power that your opponent has "given to you".

Push hands is the "sensitivity training" of tai chi. The hand and foot movements create a "wave" of energy that moves from one individual to the other. One is always "offensive", and pushing into the opponent, while the "defensive" player is drawing in the push and redirecting it to an offensive use. In double push hands, each person's second hand is placed on the elbow of the opponent's first hand. I use the word "energy" in its most exoteric sense, and I don't mean to imply that taiji practice is more mystical or generates any more energy/power/"qi" than wing chun.

The techniques are slightly more "flashy" than in wing chun, but they are equal in effectiveness when you see the theory and important points behind those techniques.

That's how I've seen tai chi, I hope it helps you. As for how it's different from wing chun, that's best left up to you.

yuanfen

01-15-2003, 06:19 PM

IMO- the body mechanics of WC and TCC are quite different.
Real top masters can make something work for them but implementing both for martial purposes in the reflex system of beginners is problematic. I see no problem in using taichi for relaxation purposes while learning wing chun for martial purposes.

wingchunalex

01-15-2003, 08:28 PM

i've done wing chun for seven years and yang tai chi for five. I find them very complementary. there is a wing chun saying that goes, "the hard and soft of wing chun". for example kwan sau (tan sau and bong sau done at the same time), can be done hard (deflecting / pressing) or it can be soft (redirecting / absorbing).

I find that tai chi is very helpful in helping to develope the soft side of wing chun, the redirecting side. at the least it helps keep me from getting to hard and forceful with techniques. it helps me be able to flow better, in sparring and chi sau. it helps keep me soft and not rigid. also when i can do the soft the hard is a lot easier too.

I don't mix the techniques of the two styles however. Its like tai chi helps remind me to flow and be soft also in my wing chun. turning stance (choh ma, sitting horse) can be used in the same way tai chi uses the rocking of the bow stance and the arrow stance. I don't use tai chi for fighting, i just use the softness gained from it to accent the hard. i don't think the combat applications of yang tai chi are especially great, at least compared to my wing chun. if I was to use tai chi for combat I would try to find a place to learn chen style.

practicing tai chi also gives you mental calm that is needed in high stress situations and combat. also tai chi is one of the best ways help you develope chi that is benificial in all areas of life.

my sifu's sifu did many styles. he was a expert in ba gua chang and tai chi, along with wing chun. and my sifu just learned wing chun and tai chi.

but above all wing chun is my number 1 style, tai chi is my second, its just a handy extra. not nessesary but benificial.

good luck

azwingchun

01-15-2003, 10:04 PM

I always find it funny how many hardcore Wing Chun people also do or have studied Tai Chi. Actually not so much funny as interesting. I have been doing Wing Chun 14 or 15 years now, the system I was originally taught was pretty soft, though nothing like Tai Chi. I only began studying Yang Tai Chi maybe 1 1/2 years ago. I really liked it for the health and relaxation part it offered, though Dr. Chow teaches the martial side as well. Which I enjoy, but I like the Wing Chun take on the martial side better, just my opinion.

But I remember a story which caught my ears, he said that there are some Tai Chi people (can't remember which style of Tai Chi) in China that calls Wing Chun southern Tai Chi. I found that interesting. Hope I didn't bore anyone, I think I have told that story already......LOL. ;)

reneritchie

01-16-2003, 08:44 AM

Yuanfen is correct. Both WCK and TJQ have (different) ways of re-programming the body to align and move in certain ways, and mastering just one, without conflicts from another, takes incredible work (though you can imp one, or both, more easily). In terms of experts, WCK is a remarkable system and experts in it seem to be able to use the WCK engine within the forms of other arts to good effect. But its still the WCK engine.

If you enjoy both, do both, but neither benefits from the other any more than concentrating on one alone (and certain individuals will better suit one than the other).

RR

Miles Teg

01-16-2003, 06:14 PM

Its not all that different though is it?

Wing Chun & Tai Chi similarities
*Elbows sunk (not all W.C lineages focus on elbows in the center)

*Slightly contracted sacrum (I think) ...well anus
*Stick with what comes, follow what goes, strike when there is an opening philosphy
*Direct incoming power to the ground ie rooting
*straight back
*chin slightly down
*chest in and concave- as opposed to out
*short range power
*Tongue pressing lightly against the roof of your mouth

Of course there is a lot that is completely different. But as far as 2 different martial arts go, they are pretty bloody similar.

RR
What do you mean by different engines?

[Censored]

01-16-2003, 07:26 PM

I always find it funny how many hardcore Wing Chun people also do or have studied Tai Chi. Actually not so much funny as interesting.

Yeah. And they are always quick to say, "...but we don't NEED Tai Chi...but I keep them SEPARATE...", etc.

Truth be told, those Tai Chi guys have weak ankles and they don't know how to punch. :) If they can embarass our method, it's not through their decadent forms, but through their understanding of investment in loss.

Rolling_Hand

01-16-2003, 07:46 PM

--I always find it funny how many hardcore Wing Chun people also do or have studied Tai Chi.--azwingchun

Funny?

Understand, and go beyond funny.

Master your WCK.

Master your Taiji.

This is the way of clarity.

Marky

01-16-2003, 08:16 PM

Hi all,

I just wish I was clever enough to know if [Censored] was joking or being serious =)

While there are many similarities between taiji and wing chun on a visual level (like those pointed out by Miles Teg), there is one glaring difference I have felt and it is an absence of EQUALIZATION. Among the taiji people I've practiced with, the concept of forward pressure (as opposed to pressing forward, then drawing in) was hard to get used to. As a result, in free form push hands, when they push into me, I can cut straight in and veer them off the centerline with a push/punch of my own, just using structure. And when they do draw my attack inward, because I'm giving constant forward pressure, I end up hitting them more than half the time anyway.

Of course, I realize that I have not worked with a large cross-section of taiji players, and my experiences are my own and no one elses. I'm not trying to step on any toes.

Atleastimnotyou

01-22-2003, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by EmptyCup
tai chi utilizes internal enegy and (no matter what wing chun people think) wing chun has none whatsoever.

You should come and visit us sometime, we'll change your mind.

Miles Teg

01-22-2003, 11:05 PM

What is your definition of internal though?

The fact that W.C can generate and take a lot of power with out tensing the muscles, and in fact the less muscle you learn to use the more powerful you become, suggests to me that you can call W.C internal. I am stronger with relaxed intention than with full muscular force.
The power comes from how you focus your mind.
Whole body oneness is also a part of W.C which is one of the things that makes Tai CHi powerful and internal, because it takes a certain mind set to do that which takes practice.

Or are you talking about the flow of Chi exclusively?

Different W.Cs have varying focus on external and internal development

EnterTheWhip

01-22-2003, 11:27 PM

Do I have to lesson you on your tai chi and your wing chun... again?

EnterTheWhip

01-22-2003, 11:44 PM

Some put it quite nicely on a different thread....

"Denial ain't just a river in Egypt"

Miles Teg

01-23-2003, 12:20 AM

OK no I dont much about what `chi' does or what it achieves in a fighting sense, but your statement:

"not to mention that in practice wing chun is as purely physical as anything else...blocks are about force on force, the use of muscular strength, etc"

..is in accurate. We train to learn to use our muscles less and less until its out thoughts that control the action and create the power.

Tai Chi people are very well aligned, positioned and use force efficiently. I think this is one of the reasons they can generate a lot of force. If there is some magic electric stuff that fills their hands and charges out to make a powerful blow, then what need is there for good alignment etc.?

Why does LOOKING graceful have to have anything to do with chi?

01-23-2003, 04:36 AM

Originally posted by EmptyCup
if a wing chun practioner can ... sent opponents flying and bruised by softly touching them then I will admit I was wrong about they style. But I have yet to see that as part of any wing chun curriculum

You may wish to join us at this year's Wing Chun Camp (http://rochesterwingchun.com/RWC_files/pages/Wing_Chun_Camp.htm) . There you can see first hand, as they say, "where the energy comes from." Granite is not part of the curriculum though. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Marky

01-23-2003, 06:10 AM

Hi EmptyCup,

"show me a wing chun fight
then tell me how it differs from a fight using another style" EC

Depends, is the wing chun guy lousy? If he's any good, he won't look like he's using wing chun.

"we just have different movements. if you use your hands and legs to block muscles are being used and force is being used. try doing tan sau to block a punch without using any muscular aid...it's like trying to block with a kleenex" EC

I realize that you just got involved in these conversations, but EVERYONE keeps talking about the **** tan sao! Tan sao, bong sao, and fok sao are STRICTLY sticking blocks that require contact ahead of time (to be used with certainty). They are deflections of force that require footwork to be used realistically. They require structure, not power. If another person on this forum says "get your tan sao to work for closing the gap in sparring" and that nonsense I'm going to go nuts! Anyway, the reason I say it needs STRUCTURE as opposed to POWER is because it doesn't move to either side, or up or down, so net power in those directions (in a perfect world) is 0. You do however need forward pressure, but not enough to move the tan sao too far out. There is an ideal place for tan sao to be, I call that "structure", but that's a matter of semantics. The "power" to block with a tan sao comes from the feet (footwork), which give the tan sao the proper angle to deflect an incoming attack and take the line. Just my opinion. M

"if you ever meet a tai chi practioner who is a true master of the syle, he can show you how posture matters not. how force does not need to be used to injure." EC

No one becomes a master of ANYTHING without good structure in what they're doing. If you mean the master can destroy your structure no matter how good you think it is, then I understand what you mean. Also, force is needed to injure, even if that force cannot be seen. Force is needed to move and think and live. I think this is a question of semantics as well. I know we could all nitpick each other's posts until the cow's come home. M

"if a wing chun practioner can break granite without brute force ( i don't know if that would work anyhow ), and sent opponents flying and bruised by softly touching them then I will admit I was wrong about they style. But I have yet to see that as part of any wing chun curriculum" EC

I've never seen that kind of stuff in a wing chun class. I've never seen that kind of stuff in a taiji class. M

"and the flowing comment i meant in real fights wing chun movements are not as graceful...they are just like any other system's blocks and attacks" EC

I've been in real fights. Wing chun looks different and is different. I won't go into why and how, because I would get on a bunch of tangents and I've already talked for too long! If you REALLY want to know why and how, however, and no one else wants to give examples, I will gladly do so. M

"a punch is a punch. force and intention.
i really dont' see how a wing chun one is supposedly different" EC

"A person is a person. They have arms and legs. I don't see how one person is different from the other." I know I sound stupid and childish by doing that, but you get the idea. I am a strong advocate of the "just do it" (or, in this case, "just hit") philosophy, but it's based on the idea that the person will hit properly, not that they'll start flailing their arms around. On the physical level, there are many wing chun punches (while the "8 fists" are standard, they give rise to a host of attack possibilities). On a subtler level, a PROPER wing chun punch has the right timing. Not all styles care about that. M

Kaitain(UK)

01-23-2003, 07:09 AM

I'm a Taiji MA and (as I've mentioned previously) I spar and train regularly with WC guys from two different lineages (although one keeps changing as ppl get disowned :) - your politics are as bad as ours)

Anyway - I just wanted to say that those that choose to train TJQ as a supplement to build qualities in their WC should not be perceived as some sort of threat to the art of WC. Cross training is not a bad thing - the problems come when people try and interject contrary principles from one art to another e.g hip positioning in WC is sufficiently different to that in TJQ (ime) to require deliberate segregation of the two styles. Energy in chi sau is different to that used in pushing hands - the purpose is different. My friends and I had to learn how to work with each other when we pushed hands before we could start having fun with it. it taught them not to be so aggressive with forward energy and it taught me how to deal with someone fixated on taking the centre. I think we would have reached these conclusions by ourselves eventually, but by being exposed to each others' system we effectively took a shortcut via experience.

I do think that people can cross-train too soon. You need a firm grounding in your base system before you look elsewhere, else you end up with a morass of principles and ideas with nothing to hold them together. I would guess in WC that the goal would be to learn the three open hand forms and have them well ingrained before looking at anything else. Even then I'm sure some people never have the desire to look at other arts - I've studied a few styles and have discarded anything that I felt 'contradicted' TJQ (Wado-Ryu for instance worked too much on evasion, whereas the TJQ I learn is based on welcoming incoming energy and then manipulating it to gain advantage).

Maybe it comes down to the 'why' of it - if you cross train to fill a gap in your system then perhaps you should look again at your training and syllabus (unless it's something that is blatantly absent like ground work - I study BJJ because TJQ in my school doesn't have any provision for the deck). If it's aesthetic then I have no problem with it - I study Escrima because I have always loved the way it flows, and stick fighting is ****ed good fun. As an unexpected benefit it has improved my pushing and sparring through the development of independent hand coordination - I find the TJQ makes my stick work more fluid and the stick work makes my taiji more martial. Applications become apparent in the form because of the work done with the sticks. My friend who does WC and TJQ found that the exercises in Taiji that tested structure really helped him with WC - slow testing of a WC posture was not something he had done before. I'm sure there are hundreds of WC schools that do that - but his didn't and he gained from it.

Last point - I'm duty bound to criticise anyone who suggest x style of TJQ over any other on the basis of martial applicability. Don't close the mind to a particular lineage as you may miss a great teacher who's really working hard on martial aspects.

01-23-2003, 07:21 AM

Great post, Kaitain.
- kj

[Censored]

01-23-2003, 11:30 AM

tai chi utilizes internal enegy and (no matter what wing chun people think) wing chun has none whatsoever.
---
You should come and visit us sometime, we'll change your mind.

People with no internal energy, are DEAD. WC is a cold art, sure, but it's not a zombie art. :)

Anyway, how do you intend to prove that your Wing Chun *energy* is different than anyone else's?

S.Teebas

01-23-2003, 03:11 PM

can you honestly tell me you can hurt an opponent without punching with muscle and force?

Nope, but WC teaches you how to do it without forcing the muscle (probably alot less muscle than your used to). Is that internal?

mtod1

01-23-2003, 03:15 PM

Hi all.

Kaitain(UK)

Can you tell me what you mean by 'slow testing of a WC posture'.

Zhuge Liang

01-24-2003, 12:11 AM

> sent opponents flying

check

> and bruised by softly touching them

and check.

Not only by my instructor either. Much to my surprise and annoyment (at how far I still have to go), a few of my sihengs can send me flying without much effort. And I'm 6'2" at 220 lbs.

You got me on the granite part though. Not part of our curriculum to hit rocks...

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

Redd

01-24-2003, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by EmptyCup
sorry for the confusion
that's not tai chi i was talking about in the granite thing
was just using examples of what TRUE internal power is since it seems wing chun people not only do not know the difference but they keep on thinking what they think is correct without actually exposing themselves to what's out there

as for the "flying" i assure you if you ever get exposed firsthand to chi in combat used against you you'll know the difference

You presume too much about what other wing chun people think or experience. It is you who needs to expose yourself more.

Kaitain(UK)

01-24-2003, 03:10 AM

mtod1 - sorry for slow response, work and timezone conspires against me :)

Testing a posture

Basically you take each of your postures and get someone to push into you from various angles and against different points of the body. It's important that the pressure is slowly applied and gradually increased - if you just shove someone then you aren't testing their structure. With a good solid structure you should be able to hold someone pushing with all of their strength into. So if someone is in a typical Bong Sau (sp?) you would take the extended arms forearm with both hands and gently push directly into their centre as they extend into the energy (it's vital you push in the right direction or you're not testing properly - you wouldn't try and absorb oblique energy). As they absorb the enrgy you start to ramp it up - usually they will seem to be shaking - don't mistake this as tension, it's merely the collision of your energy with theirs that has nowhere to go. It's important that they don't use muscular force to resist - it's not a competition to see how hard you can push or how much force they can hold. When you reach the point where you feel your structure will break, you must ask your partner to maintain the current amount of force until you give out.

I would say that even with visually perfect structure you will not hold someone first time - the testing itself is a conditioning exercise. At times I feel like all my joints are popping from the energy my tendons and joints are directing into the floor. As a structural exercise I haven't found anything that betters it.

We call it 'peng' energy - not sure what WC calls it; it's the soft energy that you use to divert and absorb incoming hits - kind of springy. In taiji I train to develop this energy further and use the incoming pressure on my 'springiness' to power my own attacks. It sounds a lot more hippified than it really is :) It is the principal energy in Taiji and should be present at all times and in all directions.

In WC context it helped my friend adjust a lot of his elbow positions where he realised that he was too tight to his chest and was often out of alignment. In chi sau he hadn't picked up on it because he was using other movements to divert the incoming energy. I guess it's like watching yourself on video doing the forms - it's only with concentrated analysis of your movement and structure that you can spot the defects.

As I said - I'm sure a whole bunch of you guys do this (or similar)already.

S.Teebas

01-24-2003, 05:43 AM

Emptycup,

the "force" does not come from the physical structure.
Do we not live in a physical world? Im sure the physical structure has something to do with martial application of ‘chi’. Otherwise, why do the 3 arts even bother to use physical movements at all? Why wouldn’t they just meditate?

however the really expert breakers, ….. their hands are soft as a baby's.
Can you provide examples of such people (ie names), that blast object by touching them.

that's because it;s not brute force that does the breaking
I know my teacher definitely doesn’t use brute force, so how do I know if it’s chi or not? How do you know if its chi or not?

same with internal experts. it's all in the chi.
What is chi anyway? Are you suggesting that it’s something beyond the physical world that we live in? I’m a bit confused by how you say “a true master can touch something and it is blasted away” like it’s been hit by a bolt of lightening or something (that’s the image I’m getting). Is chi tangable? Can we put it in a bottle and power cars off it? J

If you asked 3 separate masters of these previously mentioned arts what chi is, do you think you’d get the same answer? What’s your experience in it. And how do you know what every version of WC is like (to make to the comment that no-one has it)?

Marky

01-24-2003, 06:09 AM

Hi Kaitain(UK),

Where I practice we use the stance test as well in the way you describe. The one difference is that we don't test it against the blocks, because the blocks are designed to deflect energy to the side (or up or down). My instructor will sometimes walk by while I'm practicing and just puch my back to see if I'm sunk, or push my chest to do the same. Does practicing it with the bong sao change the meaning of the drill in some way, or is it just to give the pusher a good surface?

On a similar note, we'll sometimes have someone stand in the basic stance and clasp their hands together in front of them (at the distance they would be in fighting), and the other person paks one of their hands, then three-angle steps to the other side and paks the other hand. Of course it starts out light. I found this is good because it trains the guy using the pak sao to come in with structure, it trains the defender's stance, and conditions the skin against slapping.

Kaitain(UK)

01-24-2003, 06:45 AM

Hey Marky - I just cited Bong Sau as an example (I'm not too hot on WC positional names). However, I don't think that a block shouldn't be tested the same way.

This may be a stylistic difference as the exercise is not just for testing the postures but for strengthening them as well - when I divert incoming energy I'm still projecting into the attack, but I'm spiralling my energy (a near imperceptible rotation of the forearm around it's length as I extend the energy out). Consequently the conditioning still applies.

The example I gave was how begineer's are tested - eventually you are pushed in all 8 directions (all the compass points and corners). The push will be against the arm, shoulder, hip, knee, back, chest and elbows. Certain directions are very weak at first - everyone falls forwards when pushed in the back - it trains you to round the back properly and to root correctly.

There's another similiar exercise we do based on the 'Ji' posture - right leg forwards, right forearm horizontal in front of you (kind of rectangular shape with the elbow position), palm facing yourself. Left hand is placed with the palm pressing the base of the right palm. It is a strong positon to hold and issue force.

Now imagine someone opposite you in exactly the same posture, with their forearm against yours. Now you have to extend energy into each others' structure without compromising your own (no leaning etc). This builds immense structure and also works on the issuing of energy from your structure - unless you're using peng/springy energy you cannot maintain it for long. If you're working with someone who is tense then you can 'locate' their centre very easily and eventually send them off across the room... which is cool

It's probably the most unpleasant exercise I do in Taiji, aside from Snake Creeps Down training which is hard work :)

Marky

01-24-2003, 07:30 AM

Hi Kaitain(UK),

I understand what you mean about spiralling and structure of the blocks. Actually, we practice "heavy stick", chi sao in which much more forward pressure is applied by both hands of both practitioners, but they continue to equalize. "Heavy" is a misnomer since your hands are drilling in, not pushing down. It sounds similar to the press exercise you mentioned.

Never tried Snake Creeps Down aside from within the form, and I'm definitely not as DOWN as I should be. I have a hard enough time with taiji walking as it is! But it has tremendous similarities to wing chun footwork. I've only practiced taiji for a few months now, so I'm a beginner among beginners in that respect.

Zhuge Liang

01-24-2003, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by EmptyCup
sorry for the confusion
that's not tai chi i was talking about in the granite thing
was just using examples of what TRUE internal power is since it seems wing chun people not only do not know the difference but they keep on thinking what they think is correct without actually exposing themselves to what's out there

as for the "flying" i assure you if you ever get exposed firsthand to chi in combat used against you you'll know the difference

LOL! I apologize for being so arrogant as to presume that I knew the difference between "real" flying and "fake" flying. One day I will experience "true internal force" as a great grandmaster of chi power implodes my innards and I speak out with my last dying breath, "thank you.... for showing me... real....ultimate....power! URggghhhh......."

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

Zhuge Liang

01-24-2003, 03:20 PM

If I sound ignorant that’s only because you are…[/B]

EC, honestly, thank you. You have just made my day. =)

Good luck one and all. The truth is out there....

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

Atleastimnotyou

01-24-2003, 08:40 PM

Empty Cup,

You should call yourself Full Cup.

Grendel

01-24-2003, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
Empty Cup,

You should call yourself Full Cup.

Or, Cracked Pot. :p

Every living thing has chi. Why would only certain humans be able to harness it as a force? Why wouldn't predators who live in harmony with their prey be able to kill with a glance? Many I know would treasure that ability. No fingerprints. No proof. :cool:

Real Taiji is awesome enough without ascribing mystical powers to it.

Regards,

PathSeeker

01-25-2003, 05:27 AM

WCK may not traditionally or explicitly train chi, but surely if you trained Chi independantly you would be able to use it while training wing chun, such as delivering chi with the punch, or for absorbing a hit, which in turn would train your chi. I know nothing, just wondered.

Plus i thought any type of focusing of the mind can increase chi circulation, learning to feel would surely lead qi to this area, as would concentrating on delivering power in a punch (the mind governing the flow of qi). Its not use of chi in terms of 'blasts' and ****, but nothing is purely internal or external. Just as when using chi you would still have to move and touch things, wing chun peeps move a little more, why label things harshly when the line is infinite?

So would it be possible that someone with a great calm concentration would train their chi during WCK practice without even knowing it?

Reading a little can be dangerous, that would be me.:o

azwingchun

01-25-2003, 12:06 PM

I don't disagree that some Wing Chun systems don'e focus on the internal side as some do, but to say there isn't any chi development for fighting in any Wing Chun system I think we be a very naive statment personally.

I once heard a Kung Fu master say that Wing Chun wasn't internal because we use a wooden dummy, I thought that was the most ridiculous statment I ever heard.

I also agree with the statment that from master to another each will have a different idea as to what chi is, how you can use it and how to develop it. There are many different ideas as to each one of the ideas. I heard a Tai Chi master on TV once say that there isn't any such thing as chi for striking that it is all just proper body alignment etc. This was a Tai Chi master who had been studying most of his life if I am not wrong. My question is he still using chi but doesn't realize it or is he doing Tai Chi wrong?

As far as Wing Chun doesn't and never had the ability to use chi as a fighting tool, I again find this a very naive statement, unless we were there in it's development we will never ever know. We can't even agree to who invented the style, not to mention what and how they exactly taught . As to the statement that no Wing Chun style uses it, this would be up to interpretation as to what your idea of chi as a fighting tool is. IMHO;)

Atleastimnotyou

01-25-2003, 04:46 PM

Empty Cup,

I have met and spent time with Master Chen (chen style tai chi) on many occasions. He let me experience his chi. So i do know what chi feels like. You might say that i didn't really experience it since i am still around to talk about it, but that is ridiculous. He has been doing tai chi for all his life so he has amazing control and percision so he would not hurt anyone.
If you want to meet a wing chun practioner that has chi then meet Ken Chung at his summer camp. He does not deliver it in the same way as a tai chi person does. but it is there none the less. You say that no wing chun person has chi, i just ask you to talk to Ken. Maybe you'll change your mind... maybe you wont.

Corey.

yuanfen

01-25-2003, 05:06 PM

If you didnt have chi- you would be dead.

Different paradigms and labels involved in the discussion.

Chi is present in any really good TCMA---matter of usage and degree of understanding it. In taiji despite Mao and the PRC- Chen Xiao Wang of Chen style still uses chi metaphors and terminology.

A little correction or adjustment of alignmnets here and there by a good teacher and the flows are improved in taiji or win chun- though the mechanics are different,

Atleastimnotyou

01-25-2003, 05:08 PM

EC,

In tai chi, CHI is emphasized most(or just a whole lot). In wing chun, atleast the way ken teaches it, CHI is there but not emphasized in the manner that it is in tai chi. Ken emphasizes "postion, postion, position."

"when you say master Chen let you "experience" chi do you mean he taught you how to develop it?"

He taught me how to develop it in the manner that all i have to do is practice Yi Lu properly 10,000 times.. and once ive done that, do it some more. LOL (no i have not developed it)

"or that he used it in a demonstratin such as launching you with the tips of his fingers?"

he has done that, but more often he lets me push on him and he moves it around his dan tien and sends it back into me only amplified, and he flattens me

Corey

Marky

01-25-2003, 05:56 PM

Qi development isn't a taiji practice, it isn't a bagua practice, it isn't a wing chun practice. It's a HUMAN practice. Even if you've never practiced martial arts in your life, there are methods of qi development. The practice exists far above any individual path of martial development. As to the notion that one group "understands"it better than another, I don't have all the facts so I won't post an opinion.

Zhuge Liang

01-25-2003, 06:01 PM

many masters talk about "chi" but have no clue what it is...

The funny thing is, they'll INSIST that they do know what it is. In fact they are so convinced that they have the true knowledge that they live trapped within their own little worlds, oblivious of the reality surrounding them. Most of them can't see past their noses... Poor saps... I'm glad we're not one them...

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

dezhen2001

01-25-2003, 06:07 PM

breathe when u have to breathe, eat when you are hungry, sleep when you are tired...

how can anyone lay claim to that?

if you are healthy and have good wing chun, then imo you have 'qi'. no need to worry about it... its nothing special, just nature.

dawood

Atleastimnotyou

01-25-2003, 06:16 PM

ec,

"so based on your experience, do you think the chi in tai chi is the same "chi" WC practioners keep insisting our style has?"

well i personally beleive that most WC people are...um...not good. but that is a different discussion that i wont be in. but i do believe that the chi in my lineage of wing chun is the same as taichi, although emphasized less and delivered differently.

"do you think we can utiize the chi from our dan tiens and move it to our hands or wherever to use in fighting?"

Sure, but i think that a wing chun person should not try to deliver it like a tai chi person. my opinion of WC punching should be like chopping down a tree, don't try to topple it with one hit, just keep hitting until it falls. Tai chi would try to chop it down in one hit. Also, a WC student may use it to lead an opponent in making mistakes, which he would capitalize on.

"as for the launching...do you think it's just a "physic-al" explanation such as muscles alone and techniqe or is there more to it which, to scientists is unexplained?"

i don't think it has to do with muscles and tech., when i have been "launch", from my WC sifu and from Master Chen, it was like being touched by a cloud.

fa_jing

01-25-2003, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou

{...}
i don't think it has to do with muscles and tech., when i have been "launch", from my WC sifu and from Master Chen, it was like being touched by a cloud.

And we all know what that's like. :confused:

Matrix

01-25-2003, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
my opinion of WC punching should be like chopping down a tree, don't try to topple it with one hit, just keep hitting until it falls. If you can topple the tree with one hit, wouldn't you? Maybe the axe just needs to be sharpened. This is not a criticism by the way. I just find your comment to be quite interesting.

Sincerely,
Matrix

01-25-2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by EmptyCup
i too have the "soft approach" and hands like his but i have never heard of his name being connected to "chi"

You are correct. Ken does not speak of chi as a concern for Wing Chun, nor is it traditional to speak of it explicitly. He will, however, say that if it develops in the natural course of training (e.g., within the first set), so be it.

Regardless of semantics, we do ourselves a favor by broadening our first hand experiences and exposures. In that light, I believe you would still find a visit with Ken informative and fun.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Laughing Cow

01-25-2003, 06:49 PM

Hi All.

Been following the Threat with interest.

One thing I would like to mention:

There is only "Qi", there is NO TJQ Qi or WC Qi.

How do you train it, via "Qi Gong" exercises.
Plain and simply.
Anybody doing any form of Qi-Gong trains/enhances their Qi.

Now back to your ramblings.

Atleastimnotyou

01-25-2003, 06:50 PM

Fa jing,

LOL. no, i have never been touched by a cloud. I was trying to get acrossed that their delivery was soft and painless. though the result was not pleasant.

Matrix,

i believe my punch will be more substantial every year. if an opponent went down with one hit that would be great but i do not make that my goal. IMO training to knock a guy out with one punch may lead to developing bad habits, making mistakes and over comitting...imo

Matrix

01-25-2003, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
IMO training to knock a guy out with one punch may lead to developing bad habits, making mistakes and over comitting...imo Fair enough. I was wondering why tai chi does not have the same perspective.

Interesting. .......Thanks.

YungChun

01-26-2003, 12:53 AM

Hey EC:

Wondering about the various breathing taught in WCK as well as other systems. Do you think there is any connection between breathing exercises and chi? From what I understand the SLT has certain breathing that goes along with it. Could this not be some kind of chi cultivation? Other systems use various breathing, such as Sanchin in Okinowan karate and still others manage to train their bodies to be able to take full power shots to the head and body including the groin :o What if any chi is in play here?

To my knowledge science has yet to prove the existance of chi, and in some situations it seems that what the 'masters' are using resembles hypnosis more than invisible energy, like this:

http://www.yellowbamboo.com/videos/Website%201_Broadband_Low.mov

My mind is open but I am far from convinced that chi is anything more than what we use in WCK where less force often means more effect. Also what about the various feats of the late GM Yip? He has been known for doing remarkable things yet he was a small old fellow with no real muscle power.

I played with a Tai-Chi guy the other day and found little chi there. I was able to use Chi-Sao skills on him just like anyone else with minimal effort. Do you feel that this Chi cultivation in tai chi happens later on after many years of training? Do you have Chi? Can you use it in Chi-Sao or fighting?

Rolling_Hand

01-26-2003, 01:12 AM

EmptyCup wrote:

chi is chi but you can use it differently

----------------------------------------------

Brother,

Right on!

Master the Chi.

Let it serve truth.

dezhen2001

01-26-2003, 05:40 PM

qi is just qi, its there if u 'believe' or not, and everyone and everything alive has it. its basic tcm theory, nothing special. every time someone breathes and moves, they use qi... every time someone thinks they use qi, so what? its not some magical pill and wonder cure, its just nature.

i can bend a spear with my throat - all i need to do is the right kind of training and to develop my bones, tendons and skin. already i am on that path with my hard (and soft) qigong training and can do some things i never expected to be able to do. its just developing health and skill.

you don't have to believe it for it to work against you then how come rich mooney failed a scientific test? and other 'masters' dont do any scientific test - as their knoweledge of qigong could really help many people become healthy.

i do not use it for fighting. i use it for health. qi is just qi. its used in everything, cant be exclusive for one thing or another.

just my thoughts,
dawood

azwingchun

01-26-2003, 07:01 PM

I have to absolutely agree with you. Everything has qi, and every movement uses it. Without it our own blood would not flow.

EC-
I do train qi gong with Dr. Chow, as well as Tai Chi both Yang and Chen. But mostly the stuff i do with him is health oriented (not all, but most). I can also say that my Wing Chun uses both hard and soft, and I would like to think it is very well balanced. I am not going to get into what kind of qi gong we do, since you will only tell me that it isn't true Wing Chun. Actually, this will be my last post on this thread, since it is similar to beating a dead horse. You seem to know all there is to know about Wing Chun and who can and can't use qi. We do practice (as mentioned above) qi gong in various different forms and training methods. But maybe my Wing Chun qi gong is fake and I will not discuss any further on this. I am not trying to flame you, but it just seems that you feel you know all, and I find that very arrogant. IMHO. But maybe you really know more than anyone on this board, it is possible!

Actually, I will make one more statement, the method of developing qi I learn from Dr. Chow, are very similar. With exception to maybe the movements of the qi gong or postures. I will also state that he does many things that many qi gong masters I know don't, though he has reasons to back up why he does or doesn't do what other masters do. So just to make my point, there is interpretations as to what and how qi works and can be used.:D

dezhen2001

01-26-2003, 08:44 PM

looks like you have read a certain Q&A series too much :)

yup agreed - just coz science doesnt recognise it doesnt mean its not there. Yet someone who claims they can knock someone down without touching them is put in a room with unsuspecting public and it doesnt happen. so how come it does at seminars? this is what i mean. if u have a skill "just do it" like nike says. no need for preparation or anything, just do it.

qigong follows tcm theory, so all qigong is similar in that respect. even CMA follows tcm theory, so its connected. Blood follows the qi, so everything we do uses qi. fact, its basic tcm theory - nothing special. Also Yi leads the Qi, which is another foundation thing. i dont know much about tcm or qigong theory but i understand these concepts from my own training.

theres a differene between waving your arms and doing "tai chi dance" and actually doing taijiquan if u know what i mean, so whats the big deal? i can move my arm and body in many different ways and chances are it would look similar to something as we all have (generally) 2 arms, 2 legs and a head. does that mean i have martial prowess or am doing that style? nope. it just means i am relaxed and letting my body move naturally.

Thats good for health so more power to them. but that doesnt help you or your point in any way, its just natural.

dawood

dezhen2001

01-26-2003, 08:47 PM

i won't get into it here because it's beyond the knowledge of most. now im sorry, but you dont know anyone on the forum, so everyone is equal. in fact there are probably many people here who have much more CMA knoweledge than even you or i - i can think of a few names easily. That reeks of elitism and ego so why bother posting at all if youre not willing to have a discussion?:confused:

but i know chi exists and things which the western world has never laid eyes on how do you know it exists and what have you seen or done that the western world 'has never laid eyes on'?

dawood

YungChun

01-26-2003, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by EmptyCup
i tried to talk about chi and how it's not useable in fighting with wing chun

Actually you said that the 'chi' information wasn't passed down, but could have been there.

You also said that it couldn't be used with WCK.

Later you said that if you used it with WCK that is wasn't WCK anymore despite the fact that:

You also said it may have been in the system at one time.

At some other point you said that Yip could have had it but didn't pass it down.

You also indicated that various breathing exercises develop chi and some WCK has certain breathing that goes along with the SLT.

I am a little confused.

dezhen2001

01-26-2003, 11:41 PM

i tried to talk about chi and how it's not useable in fighting with wing chun. most don't understand my explanantions because they continually think it's something that it is not.but if Qi is something natural in all living things then how come it cant be used in wing chun? its not something you can switch on and off! do you mean 'jing' due to correct structure, intent, focus etc. or something else? what do you class as "Qi" - and specifically what is it thats gets us all confused?

i wrote about something interesting but you judge it without even seeing it yourself. i don't think i'm a moron and i would like to think i can tell if somebody is just waving his arms around. no i didnt judge it, i made a comment based on the information you wrote above in your posts. Also i didnt make any reference to your level of intelligence - only what was given in your post. so theres no need to start getting personal when we are having a good discussion.

one such example is a person who did a drunken monkey style how can they do aspecific skill if they have not even trained or seen it? for sure qigong helps IMA body mechanics, and even some is the same as wing chun. i have found that too in my own experience. Thats because everything is related to TCM theory though, so common principles in all skill.

also if you put two people are in such a trance in close proximity with each other they proceed to fight each other. that doesnt sound too healthy! lol but before you said its not a trance and now it is?

now you have confused me as well as yung chun:confused:

dawood

dezhen2001

01-26-2003, 11:47 PM

you replied as i was typing my post :) it helps explain your theory a bit better, but still doesnt answer what this elusive Qi actually is and how it should be developed - if not through somehting consistent with tcm theory? :confused:

dawood

cha kuen

01-27-2003, 12:00 AM

Doesn't tai chi have more than one type of energy? They have 8 types of energy while wing chun uses one type. But when hands touch, it doesn't matter how many types of energy you have.

Tai chi doesn't have as strong as an elbow as wing chun. But both are great styles.

dezhen2001

01-27-2003, 12:17 AM

cha kuen: qi is not jing (power), thats where the confusion can often arise. jing is the manifestation and expression of energy through using intent, structure and all these other factors.

As far as i know frmo my limited knoweledge of Chen taijiquan it uses 8 different expressions of power, but they are all from the same source ie. the dantian.

im sure someone else can explain more clearly :)

dawood

YungChun

01-27-2003, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by cha kuen
Doesn't tai chi have more than one type of energy? They have 8 types of energy while wing chun uses one type. But when hands touch, it doesn't matter how many types of energy you have.

Tai chi doesn't have as strong as an elbow as wing chun. But both are great styles.

But WCK techniques are designed to deal with 8 kinds of energy, not one. Hence the variations of change in the system to adapt to the opponent's changing energy.

WCK uses forward energy while Tai Chi, seems to use rotational energy. The use of energy in the two systems are actually contradictory IMO.

Laughing Cow

01-27-2003, 12:25 AM

Excerpts from an Interview:

JS: Is Silk Reeling Power (Chan Si Jin) the feature of Chen style only or other styles of Taijiquan have it too?

MR.FENG: All Taiji styles emphasize Opening and Closing (Kai-He), Empty and Solid (Xu-Shi), Hardness and Softness (Gang-Rou), Contracting and Opening (Qu-Shen), Yin and Yang, etc. Silk Reeling Power appears in all Taiji styles but Chen style emphasizes it more than other schools and the round movement of all parts of the body is its feature. Other schools of Taiji pay more attention to Opening and Closing. Actually all martial arts contain circular and round, Hunyuan movements. In Xingyiquan this feature is described by Drilling (Zuan), Wrapping (Guo), Twisting (Ning), Overturning (Fan).

JS: What is Peng Jin?

MR.FENG: It is a kind of power that both Internal and External styles should have (although External styles do not use this term). It is a protective, warding off, directed forward power, which is not weak/soft (ruan). All Taijiquan powers should have Peng, and the differences among them lie in different directions it is applied.

JS: Is Liu He - Six Harmonies - the feature of only Neijia arts?

MR.FENG: Six Harmonies mean coordination between Mind (Xin), Intention (Yi), Qi and the body. Externally they can be understood as "arriving at the same time". Both Neijia and Waijia should use Liu He principles.

JS: What is Qi?

MR.FENG: Qi is a kind of driving force (Dong Li). For example blood circulation can be explained with the term "Qi". Internal styles say: "exercise Intention (Yi), not Qi", "when you use Intention, your channels will not be blocked", "exercise Qi, not physical strength (Li); when you exercise physical strength, it will easily break"; "Intention should be focused on Spirit (Shen), not Qi; when it is focused on Qi, then Qi will become stagnant". There is also another saying "Where Intention arrives, Qi also arrives". However one has to build Qi to reach this level. Qi comes from food, from breathing, it is also given to us by our parents and stored in the body as "Original Qi" (Yuan Qi).

YungChun

01-27-2003, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Excerpts from an Interview:

JS: Is Silk Reeling Power (Chan Si Jin) the feature of Chen style only or other styles of Taijiquan have it too?

MR.FENG: All Taiji styles emphasize Opening and Closing (Kai-He), Empty and Solid (Xu-Shi), Hardness and Softness (Gang-Rou), Contracting and Opening (Qu-Shen), Yin and Yang, etc. Silk Reeling Power appears in all Taiji styles but Chen style emphasizes it more than other schools and the round movement of all parts of the body is its feature. Other schools of Taiji pay more attention to Opening and Closing. Actually all martial arts contain circular and round, Hunyuan movements. In Xingyiquan this feature is described by Drilling (Zuan), Wrapping (Guo), Twisting (Ning), Overturning (Fan).

JS: What is Peng Jin?

MR.FENG: It is a kind of power that both Internal and External styles should have (although External styles do not use this term). It is a protective, warding off, directed forward power, which is not weak/soft (ruan). All Taijiquan powers should have Peng, and the differences among them lie in different directions it is applied.

JS: Is Liu He - Six Harmonies - the feature of only Neijia arts?

MR.FENG: Six Harmonies mean coordination between Mind (Xin), Intention (Yi), Qi and the body. Externally they can be understood as "arriving at the same time". Both Neijia and Waijia should use Liu He principles.

JS: What is Qi?

MR.FENG: Qi is a kind of driving force (Dong Li). For example blood circulation can be explained with the term "Qi". Internal styles say: "exercise Intention (Yi), not Qi", "when you use Intention, your channels will not be blocked", "exercise Qi, not physical strength (Li); when you exercise physical strength, it will easily break"; "Intention should be focused on Spirit (Shen), not Qi; when it is focused on Qi, then Qi will become stagnant". There is also another saying "Where Intention arrives, Qi also arrives". However one has to build Qi to reach this level. Qi comes from food, from breathing, it is also given to us by our parents and stored in the body as "Original Qi" (Yuan Qi).

Sounds more and more like we are using 'chi' in WCK. As in hitting: When one tries to hit hard it is never as hard as when you just hit.

dezhen2001

01-27-2003, 12:36 AM

yung chun: so just be natural... its nothing special, just grows as you develop kung fu (otherwise there would be no point in training for so long and as you get older) :)

Laughing Cow: a good interview! i like the description of peng Jin, liu he (structure?) and Qi! very clear and conscise and in line with what i have been taught.

dawood

Fresh

01-27-2003, 04:42 AM

Maybe Mr. Feng needs qi lessons from Emptycup.:D :D :D

dezhen2001

01-27-2003, 11:11 AM

i have yet to see anything done with the aid of chi, that cannot be done without.

if we take the chinese medicine explanation of qi, we see that actually you use qi in EVERYTHING. its not some mystical thing. To think, to move, to make the circulation of blood... it all needs energy. So how can you do something without qi? Even if you dont 'believe' you still need to move, breathe and think, which uses energy.

Does it need to be some mystical etherial energy we can conjure up and zap people with? Or is it actually something infinately more realistic and practical?

dawood

[Censored]

01-27-2003, 11:38 AM

LOL, these types of discussions always go the same way...the people with knowledge want to debate the people with experience. Here's a few tips for those of you who don't know no better: ;)

- "chi" is not a character in "tai chi";
- "jing" and "jin" are different words;
- not every Chinese person knows what qi is;
- not every martial arts expert knows what qi is;
- qi is not "bone-stacking";
- qi is not "softness";
- qi is not an opinion!

dezhen2001

01-27-2003, 12:03 PM

so why make it something mystical?

why is it not physical?

its everywhere and in every living thing... so its something physical. Not physical as in you can dissect it, but perhaps more like thoughts, or emotions, or the 'soul'... no one can deny that we have these and science cant adequately explain them either (afaik).

i agree western science has not adequately explained it yet, but thats no reason to make such grandoise claims about something that is very hard to define as it is... no wonder people think Qigong and IMA are useless and all based on hypnosis or tricks when people say they can do something that defies the laws of science (nature)!

so many people seem to be chasing this elusive "Qi" and not just doing it, which is where the benefit really is.

dawood

Laughing Cow

01-27-2003, 02:21 PM

The really funny thing is the years that I have studied IMA I have encountered very few mentioning "Qi".

Yes, we do Qi-Gong like Zhang-Zhuang, Chan Si Jin and similar exercises.

But the most prevalent terms are structure, movements originating from the Dan Tien, relaxation, breathing and MOST of all "Intent".

Many long time practicioners I meet never discuss Qi but other aspects of the Art like Fa-jing, Peng jing, double weigtheness and so on.

So I don't feel that Qi is what makes the IMA internal as I know that other systems, non-chinese, included also practice Qi-gong and energy channeling.

Just my thoughts.

dezhen2001

01-27-2003, 02:28 PM

laughingcow: agreed :)

to me if you practise the skill correctly, all this "Qi" business takes care of itself... hence just do it.

if u like cna you email me? i havent heard from you in a while :)

dawood

YungChun

01-27-2003, 09:16 PM

Was talking with someone who studied Tai-Chi in China for a while before he came to the U.S. He said that in his opinion all Shaolin styles have or did have and should have one form of chi-gung in them or another including WC if it is indeed a Shaolin based system. He demostrated how in Tai Chi (Yang) they were trained to breath and begin to move the 'chi.' He then demonstrated another way of doing this from a praying type position and said this is more like the way a Wing Chun type Shaolin style would do the exercise.

Beats the hell out of me. I tend to think that all styles had one kind of chi gung training or another out of the box. Wonder who removed it from the WCK package and if some other non Yip lines still have it.

I've heard that there is some special breathing that goes along with SLT. Anyone else?