Wang Hai Jun vs MMA fighter at Boston?

[Kumkuat]

If you guys have been following r.m-a, there is a thread to get a MMA guy to visit Wang Hai Jun during his seminar in Boston this weekend. The MMA guy doesn't know if he can make it, but it seems like he wants to go. From the thread, it looks like it's not going to be anything hostile. I think the premise is that the MMA guy will go there to ask Wang about certain stuff, and maybe they'll test out the effectiveness of Wang's taiji. Or he'll just sit and watch. But anyway, if the MMA guy shows up and something does happen, what would happen? I'm kinda worried about Wang even though he is freaky strong, but I don't know how much sparring experience he has compared to MMA fighter. My true feeling is that Wang will lose to the MMA guy. But I really hope Wang will surprise me and all the doubters of IMA. Hey Walter, tell us what happens if he does show up to the seminar.

[Shooter]

They should walk on their own d@mn legs and stop expecting others to carry their arguments for them.

[count]

Originally posted by Shooter
They should walk on their own d@mn legs and stop expecting others to carry their arguments for them.

Shooter, Are you saying the MMA guy trying to get someone else to go challenge the Sifu should stand on their own legs, or are you making your comment about this particular Sifu? I don't follow the forum you guys are talking about. Can you give a link?

When people go out and charge money for their ideas, they should expect to be challenged on them. I wouldn't worry about the Sifu. My guess is he's prepared.;)

[Shooter]

Count, my post was a commentary on the mouth-boxing, Tai Chi instigator(s). It'd be nice to see him/them step up and back their own tripe. It's called walking the walk.

[Liokault]

theres a lot of mouth boxing on this forum and in the martial arts in general.

i think its all down to how hard it is to prove anything. If the Tai Chi guy beats the MMA guy does that prove that TTC is better? does it just prove that the TTC guy was better than the MMA guy at fighting....now if if was his TTC that made him better who can say. If the MMA guy beats the TTC guy oes it prove that hes better? Does it prove that he has a better style?

Also who decides who wins and who loses? I have fought with guys from other styles who have spent more time on their backs than on their feet but who have still left feeling that they have won due to differant perceptions of what winning is!!!


I can not help but feel that the situation that was origionaly posted can only be a good thing as long as u do not try to see it as proving superiority over a style (or way of training even).

if u it is approched as a learning experiance by both sides than its a win win situation.




P.S good to see u back shooter......not seen u post for ages.

[Muppet]

Here's the final story from the MMA guy:


I show up 10 minutes early.It is a taichi Kung Fu school.
I walk in.I am met by two white guys.
Me "I have an appointment with wang"
They look at each other seeming very nervous and ask me to go with them into
the office.I do.
They offer a seat, I take it.
1st guy
"Im not sure what exactly you are here for...."
I say nothing, just smile sardonically,
"But ah, well you see Mike Sigman said there could be trouble"
I smile more.I am legitimatly amused.
The other guy says
"Well, eventually Sigman said there may not be a fight, he wasnt sure, but in
his first email he said he was sending a shootfighter over and to tell wang to
take him out fast"
I laugh heartily and leave them wondering at exactly what I am laughing at.
1st guy. "As rich says, we kinda anticipated trouble and well.... you look like
a reasonable guy but...."
2nd guy
"You see the thing is Master Wang is here on Visa, and if he gets into trouble
he can't come back"
My smile becomes a grin.
There is silence.
I finally break it.
"I was here because I was offered money to come.I anticipated nothing.Although
exactly what is happening seemed most likely"
"I was essentially dared to come"
"So I came"
2nd guy
"I'm sorry you were inconvienced... Master Wang will accept challenges in
England, but he is here on Visa"
Me
"I did NOT challange him."
"*I* was challanged"
"And I am here.In one of HIS schools."
"Most mma fighters would flip right now.yOu should see yourself as lucky that
iM not typical of them"
1st guy
"There were a few miscommunications..."
Me cutting him off
"The problem is this... I am a MMA fighter.We ACCEPT challanges"
"I don't think that this was anticipated"
They seem uncomfortable
Me
"Well, ok then, I guess Ill be going.... I wont call Wang a coward on the net,
as I dont *know* what he was told."
I was told that in sigmans FIRST email these guys were told there would be a
fight.I didnt hear anything about visas until I show up.
Thts not cool.
I could lie and say that I was disspointed.I wasn't.
Those are the facts.Twist them as you will.


FYI, the MMA guy isn't the type to squeal if he got the crap kicked out of him.

Here's the original warning message sent by Mike Sigman, the person who encouraged the MMA guy to check out a REAL tai chi person:

> Hi Guys:
>
> I'm getting into a situation on rec.martial-arts which may be deviating from
> what I initially attempted to do. Essentially, I responded to someone
> posting about how poor Chinese martial arts were... I offered to pay his way
> to Wang Hai Jun's seminar so he'd get a chance to see someone truly good.
> Part of my intentions were to give Wang Hai Jun some free press on a very
> widely-read newsgroup, BTW.
>
> In what I think is simply a guy or some guys looking for a face-saving way
> out of the predicament, a couple of people are wondering out loud if Wang
> Hai Jun would survive against their submission-wrestling tactics and the way
> they "shoot" (dive) into an opponent. I expect this to probably die and go
> away, but just in case one of them decides to come, there is the
> *possibility* they will ask Wang Hai Jun to show them what he would do.
> IF it comes to a worst-case scenario, and a ****y shoot-fighter shows up, I
> would suggest that Wang Hai Jun be very forceful very fast and end it.
>
> My apologies. I don't think this is going anywhere, but I had to say
> something, just in case. The person with some shoot-fighting skills is
> named Bill Mahoney. However, I'm trying to let this die down, so probably
> not much will come of this. If nothing else, Wang Hai Jun just got a LOT of
> publicity. :^)
>
> Mike
>


Walter, I really hope you weren't one of the two white guys in that email, because they didn't do anybody any favors.

Least of all, Wang Hai Jun, who may unknowingly have lost a good portion of his reputation simply because of two white guys who were trying to "protect" their workshop instructor's reputation. The Asian MA community is kind of small in the West, so word travels pretty fast.

Or maybe they mustn't think much of CMA arts if they're acting so nervously on behalf of Wang; i.e., frauds.

This meet-up NEEDED to happen. The larger MA public needs to see that CMA--and the IMA in particular--isn't a joke at all. Those two crackers totally blew it.

[planetwc]

More from Bill Mahoney on this whole non-event.
This is something I think that is problematic not just in the Taiji community but the CMA community at large. Read it and see what I mean.

=======
>I take it you never met the guy; you could have, but so what?
>
>You weren't interested and he wasn't interested either.

I object to putting us on the same level.
1) Am am challenged to step uo by going to HIS thing
2) I do...he is apparently not there.

I was not challenged by him, so for all I know he never heard about me(which I doubt, but it is possible)

Think about this.
A guy calls a taichi guy out and challenges him to fight a Gracie at a gracie seminar.

The tai ji guy shows up AT A GRACIE AFFILIATED SCHOOL.
And is told by the gracies reps that the gracie cant fight do to a visa issue.

Think about it.
Does that sound like something that could happen?
First off the gracies wouldnt give a **** about visas.
Secondly the gracie reps woulda been too smart to set it up.
THEY would have challanged the taiji guy, not challanged him for someone else.
Next even if they didnt they would have humped in to face him.
Next no taiji guy would EVER step in a gracie school to fight,
NEVER EVER EVER.
And you all know it.

Finally, if the event orginizers said "Rickson, you got a challange match
coming up"
and he wasnt up for it, he would either kick the asses of his reps for making
him look like a ****, or they wouldnt be his reps anymore.
Probably both.

This whole event makes wang look terrible.Like a thug that is also a chicken.
And he *may* have had nothing to do with it.
He may have not even been told about it.
As he is apparently revered, i shall give him the benefit of the doubt.
Though the fact that thjis visa thing took 4 days to surface seems suspicious.
If I had shown(as I think was expected)
Would they be saying "Bill wasnt there"
Would they fess up that Wang wasnt either?
We'll never know.

[Shooter]

pathetic spin on things. I like how the instigator (mentioned above) tries to distance himself from any blame. Typical though...

Tai Chi has no legs...indeed!

Those of us TCC dudes who can actually back our talk aren't allowed (legit) in these peoples' little Tai Chi world 'cause we're willing and able to do what they don't have the stones to even try. Guys like like them and their drones are what's wrong with the IMAs, puppet and Dave. Wang's got nothing to do with it...he's just a casualty of the mouth-boxing, TCC pussies' e-war.

What can you do with your own Tai Chi? How far can you walk on your own legs? Your answers should govern your words. ...don't bother answering though...you probably don't even know what it's asking...

FWIW...of course... :cool:

[Muppet]

I'm not a tai chi person.

Also, you should read the whole story:

This is a very, VERY long thread which started all of it:
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=b05mq8%24rqh%241%40wolfberry.srv.cs.cmu.ed u&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Drec.martial-arts&as_drrb=b&as_maxd=15&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=2003&as_mind=29&as_minm=3&as_miny=1995

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=v2p0ls7jl8evcd%40corp.supernews.com&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Drec.martial-arts

Also, Bill Mahoney lives near Boston.

Mike Sigman lives in Colorado.

Is it really a big deal that Mike offers to pay Bill to simply check out Wang (NOT fight, if you bother to read the long thread), a top notch Chen guy who's holding a workshop in Boston?

[Shooter]

I've followed the thread from the beginning...

As for your question,


your answers should govern your words...you probably don't even know what it's asking

I rest my case.

nevermind then...

[brassmonkey]

The tai ji guy shows up AT A GRACIE AFFILIATED SCHOOL.
And is told by the gracies reps that the gracie cant fight do to a visa issue."

Don't be so sure. There is a story that's been floating around mma.tv for a while, I've heard it 3 or 4 x but who knows if its true but my guess it is. The story as far as i can remember, goes Renzo Gracie goes to Australia for a seminar. Renzo calls up a "famous" australian tcc "master" and says I heard you been saying Gracie JJ is no good for fighting , I'd like to test what you say at your school. Australian master says "sure but i fight no rules"
REnzo "fine by me"
Australian Master "when i say no rules i mean no rules!"
Renzo "fine by me"
Australian Master "when i say no rules i mean baseball bats!"
REnzo "fine by me"
Australian Master "if you come 1 step in my school I'll have you deported!"
End of story.

"Think about it.
Does that sound like something that could happen?
First off the gracies wouldnt give a **** about visas.
Secondly the gracie reps woulda been too smart to set it up.
THEY would have challanged the taiji guy, not challanged him for someone else."

Hard to tell what really happened here as I don't know Wang personally or by reputation however 1 part of the equation could very well be the answer.

Mike Sigman I've seen make challenges for Chen Xiao Wang several times on the usenet and I'm willing to bet without his knowledge. In fact I remember 1 time Sigman disparaging another gentleman's teacher then this gentleman publically challenges Sigman. Sigman pretty much calls the guy a pu$$y and refers his challenge to a judokan. And Sigman aint no welterweight probably twice the size as the challenger. Imagine me calling your teacher no good, doesnt teach for fighting etc. etc. you challenge me I call you a ***** and siad if you had any balls you'd go challenge Rickson Gracie! WTF is that.

I've seen over the past few months people on various forums quoting Sigman as if some authority on TCC. Sigman is 1 of the best writers of theoretical tcc I"ve seen on the net if not the best. If you believe him then there are no good teachers in north america if not less then a handful but the west eyes is getting opened up to real tcc as the chen top dogs come here for seminars. He'd also have you believe you cannot get anywhere with tai chi within 3 or 5 years maybe 10 if you have a legit teacher(see above) and then that doesnt mean he's teaching you anything good if your lucky you'll get the goods.

If you take Sigman as a model for how someone with 20+ years of tcc experience with access to top teachers then your going to be dissapointed. Someone was kind enough to give me a video of Sigman pushing hands with someone half his size and he gets schooled pretty bad. Clearly gets frustrated. The guy he was going against in all fairness was probably real good so you shouldnt talk smack b4 and after .After this ph match he claims so and so used muscle etc. Well what's that tell you about your skill? Maybe you should just lift weights if what you learned doesnt work. BTW I couldnt see much muscling except for maybe Sigman muscling after he gets frustrated. Of course ph matches prove little as there are many tricks 1 can pull they can't in a real fight of course but I'm inclined to believe Sigman is not so good at fighting either.

In summary this is probably a case of Sigman pawning off someone else to fight his fights as usual. People need to be more secure in what they do and not care if the world thinks all tcc players suck in fact this could be to your advantage in a fight.

[Muppet]

Brass,
The only three "challenges" I recall Sigman getting involved in is this one, the one involving Chas Clements, and the one with Don Miller.

This first one is something that got blown out of proportion because the third party RMA people, not because of anything Bill or Mike did.

In the second one, both are in Colorado so Sigman showed up, offered to demonstrate the Internal Strength, Clements was impressed, and from both parties it was an amicable meeting. Now I suppose it's possible that Clements is a shill, but I seriously doubt it.

It seems pretty obvious that Sigman had the same idea in mind for Mahoney, though it clearly didn't work out that way.
Anyway, I'm not saying others didn't happen, I just don't know about them.

Also, I don't think Sigman is the end-all of internal MA, but he has some interesting perspectives which seem worthwhile.

As for the Don Miller meeting, I wish I had a copy of the video because I'd like to see what happened.

Anyway, this is something that could've raised the bar for the IMA that you see in the west: Honestly, much of what passes for internal MA is questionable and few hardcore individuals will touch IMA with a stick, leaving mainly the hobbyists.

That makes the pool of good IMAs VERY small.



Shooter, for what it's worth the pro-grapplers are plainly striving to avoid placing any blame on Mike simply because he really wasn't at fault.

Both Sigman and Mahoney understood what the so-called "challenge" was about but Sigman took the precaution of firing off the warning email when things seemed to be going past his intentions.

Again, I don't see the big deal in making a referral when neither party had any interest or the time in travelling hundreds of miles.

As for your comment "what can you do with your tai chi chuan", it's a pointless question without knowing "what am I SUPPOSED to be able to do with tai chi chuan"?

There are a lot of ridiculous fairy tales and a lot of ridiculous practices--some of this propagated by the Chinese, some by over-eager Westerners--leaving the poor newbie practitioner to sort out fact from fiction.

[Stranger]

This first one is something that got blown out of proportion because the third party RMA people

Who?, what? , where?, why?, how?

I'm curious.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I've got no stake in this, but I've seen the Sigman/ Miller tape. Sigman looked very cautious, and when he was shoved my Miller, he maintained his structure and went with it - he was obviously waiting for the cheap shot that never came from Miller. There was even a point where Sigman was fully 'stored' and had his elbow on Millers chest. Miller tried to get around it, but couldn't and was obviously frustrated. He (Miller) probably did not know how close he was to nighty-night bunny rabbit.

Frankly, it looked like a very cautious push hands game on Sigmans side, versus a muscle bound guy who knew little or nothing about Taiji.

No, like I said, I'm just going by the tape. I don't know either party. But if I was Miller, I would not have distributed that tape - it made him look like a nutjob.

[Muppet]

Stranger, the first one is the topic :)

Sorry for the confusion, but I wasn't going by chronological order.

[Stranger]

No, my apologies. I saw "RMA" and thought "Russian Martial Arts".

I see now from the first post that it is "r.m-a" and has nothing to do with "RMA".

:)

[Shooter]

There are a lot of ridiculous fairy tales and a lot of ridiculous practices--some of this propagated by the Chinese, some by over-eager Westerners--leaving the poor newbie practitioner to sort out fact from fiction

here are a few facts for you then:

1)-you won't get a lot of good info on message boards unless you weed out the bull$#!++ers from the people who know what they're talking about. The people who know are good at detecting the BS of those who don't, and they will back it up beyond the keyboard.

2)-if neither you nor your teacher has ever done any type of full-contact fighting outside the safety of your own school, chances are very slim that you'll ever get the true fighting method...no matter how famous or 'name' the teacher is, you'll only get a poor facsimile.

3)-If you don't spar regularly, and against people from other schools/styles, you're not going to have a realistic understanding of how your art works.

4)-if your teacher doesn't show blunt and edged weapons defense and retention, and demonstrate those skills in live, real-time (training knife of course) against commited attacks, they don't really understand internal MAs at all.

5)-if your teacher doesn't have you explore the psychological aspects of predatory and random violent attacks, they don't really understand MAs in general.

6)-you won't get practical info from people like Sigman. He doesn't understand TCC's martial aspects. In other words, he doesn't really understand TCC well enough to be speculating on the skill level of others. He has no workable model he can compare to. End of story...

[wckf]

From reading the threads both here and on rec.martial.arts, one thing is glaringly clear - Bill Mahoney will walk the talk !

It takes a real MA-ist to be willing to test his skills with the top guys from different schools, simple as that.

He's got my respects whether he is that good or not !!

[jun_erh]

Seri0usly. he seems like an idi0t, but he wasn't the 0ne wh0 made it c0mplicated. T00 bad n0thing came 0f it

[[Censored]]

Someone else said that in person Bill is a reasonable guy (I agree) but that he is an a$$hole when behind a keyboard...I am a martial artist and a lawyer. I am not a dancer.

Why then didn't you politely show him something, in person?

[Walter Joyce]

Thank you to the kung fu forum for the space to post my explanation of the events as I saw them. I suggest we all return to more substantive discussions.

[Muppet]

Shooter,


1)-you won't get a lot of good info on message boards unless you weed out the bull$#!++ers from the people who know what they're talking about. The people who know are good at detecting the BS of those who don't, and they will back it up beyond the keyboard.

You're right, it isn't only the people in the know who back it up beyond the keyboard.

Put it this way, you can have a guy trained in muay thai who thinks, because he knows the taiji forms, is qualified for taiji.

He may even kick ass to some degree using the forms, but that alone doesn't make him "in the know".



2)-if neither you nor your teacher has ever done any type of full-contact fighting outside the safety of your own school, chances are very slim that you'll ever get the true fighting method...no matter how famous or 'name' the teacher is, you'll only get a poor facsimile.

This is true for ALL MA actually.

This is one reason I started boxing (maintaining fitness and encouragement by the instructor being the other two).

However, I don't think sparring is what makes the IMA stand apart.



3)-If you don't spar regularly, and against people from other schools/styles, you're not going to have a realistic understanding of how your art works.


You don't spar until you're ready. Boxing's as sparring oriented as striking styles get, yet we aren't thrown into the ring right away.

You HAVE to get a handle on the basic techniques and prepare your body. In the meantime, that's what the drills are for.



4)-if your teacher doesn't show blunt and edged weapons defense and retention, and demonstrate those skills in live, real-time (training knife of course) against commited attacks, they don't really understand internal MAs at all.


It's funny you mention this. A few months ago, my Hsing I instructor was demonstrating/teaching a particular knife disarming technique.

Now the problem is that my instructor's English is lacking, so he had trouble getting across just how one's thumb should be used during the disarm.

Now a few weeks earlier, I happened to be observing a bagua class by the instructor was performing where he was teaching the same method of disarming and since the thumb movement was critical, it stuck in my mind.

Anyway, we have a couple of wannabes (non-Mandarin speakers) who thought they knew what the instructor was talking about, so they kept blurting out "What the teacher is saying is..." and then kept doing the technique wrong.

Eventually, I tried to point out why the teacher is correcting them, but all I got was a dirty look and was summarily ignored.

After a few more times, the teacher got so frustrated that he brought out a rusty kitchen knife (jokingly) so that these wannabes would NOT apply the technique incorrectly and just listen.

*sigh*

The point is, just having an excellent teacher isn't enough when you're surrounded by guys who can't check their egos at the door with the intent of actually paying attention and learning.



5)-if your teacher doesn't have you explore the psychological aspects of predatory and random violent attacks, they don't really understand MAs in general.


You don't learn street smarts except by experience.

An instructor may be able to give you some tidbits of advice, but the rest is all you.



6)-you won't get practical info from people like Sigman. He doesn't understand TCC's martial aspects. In other words, he doesn't really understand TCC well enough to be speculating on the skill level of others. He has no workable model he can compare to. End of story...

Remember when I said body training is essential for even boxing?

What I look for from Sigman is the peculiar body development which is crucial to the IMA.

Besides, Sigman freely admits that:
a). He's not good
b). He's not practicing any particular MA

The only reason to check him out is because he has a reputation for explaining things in a way people can understand.

There's a reason why so many people even in the old country failed to grasp the IMA successfully and there's a reason why the old masters say neglecting the classics would be a mistake.

Even with a teacher in the know, this stuff isn't easy to get a handle on.

[[Censored]]

I suggest we all return to more substantive discussions.

This is potentially a more substantive discussion than anything else on the forum now...unless you kill it.

I don't know how long you've been reading R.M.A., if at all. It is the most popular MA forum on the Net, and has been for many years. Bill has been participating on that forum for a long time, he has earned the respect of many people by walking his talk. I'm not his publicist (actually I've argued with him in the past), but I'll give credit where it's due.

Apparently, he has NEVER met a legitimate practitioner of Chinese MA. But I think you know that.

So how could YOU possibly be disinterested in a friendly exchange with a "reasonable" (by your account) and talented guy? You're no dancer, right?

[Muppet]

Well, Bill may have missed Wang Hai Jun, but there's always Yellow Bamboo :)

[Shooter]

Wujidude, :) agreed. Weapons defense and retention is one of the things seriously misunderstood by the vast majority of IMAs "teachers". One of the main problems is with teachers who "show a disarm technique". :mad: dabblers!... Training to survive attacks involving sticks and knives is a body of study. It isn't a "technique" here and there during forms class or whatever. Instructors who approach it as an interlude during the 'regular training' are clueless and a danger to their students.

The mental and emotional component of violent encounters is the most important facet of the training. Our perceptions govern our actions. The better you understand how you'll respond to your perceptions, the better your odds of avoidance, evasion, and resolution. In my limited understanding, it's a whole lot more than just experiencial "street smarts"! :p If the teacher can only offer up tid-bits of advice, well....they don't really understand MAs in general.

Most people just don't "get it" though. Glad you do! :cool:



Muppet, you wrote;


He may even kick ass to some degree using the forms, but that alone doesn't make him "in the know"

You sure about that? Or is that something Sigman told you? If you believe you're going to use the forms when the $#!+ hits the fan, you're setting some lofty goals for your short-term needs. Better to get the near and miss the far than the other way round. There actually is a "near" in IMAs, you know?..and it's most often what those who have the far will resort to if they haven't pressure tested their stuff. You know what I'm saying?

People who train with me spar on their first day. I like to focus on the near...with proper training and time spent, the far takes care of itself. FWIW, I've done the ring-fighting thing for more than 20 years (boxing, MMA, etc), and have been training fighters for a while now. But thanks for setting me straight.


The point is, just having an excellent teacher isn't enough when you're surrounded by guys who can't check their egos at the door with the intent of actually paying attention and learning

This is the most interesting thing you've said so far. In a real fighting school, you don't see a whole lot of ego. It just aint there.

But hey, if you say so. You know best.

[planetwc]

Was it deleted? I can't find it in this thread.
Geez maybe I'm going blind. :cool:
:D


Originally posted by Walter Joyce
Thank you to the kung fu forum for the space to post my explanation of the events as I saw them. I suggest we all return to more substantive discussions.

[Muppet]

People who train with me spar on their first day. I like to focus on the near...with proper training and time spent, the far takes care of itself. FWIW, I've done the ring-fighting thing for more than 20 years (boxing, MMA, etc), and have been training fighters for a while now. But thanks for setting me straight.

That's nice. You're the only instructor, right?
The countless hours spent on drills and exercises like hand pads, body bags, etc. must be a waste.

Honestly, some of the boxing instructors in my gym take a similar route as you, but most don't.

What's the point in sparring when you don't have the basics, except maybe as the occasional reality check?

My right cross (and right side, in general) and for some reason my left hook is decent for a beginner, but my jabs and left upper cuts are pretty weak because my left is pretty uncoordinated.

Considering jabs are the bread-and-butter of boxing, I have a feeling I can use some more work before I start sparring.

As you said, I'm interested in the near and letting the far taking care of itself. When I'm ready to take a foray into sparring, my instructor will let me know.


This is the most interesting thing you've said so far. In a real fighting school, you don't see a whole lot of ego. It just aint there.

Which is why I'm not thrilled with the situation.

But in any style/approach of fighting, someone kicked started it at some point.

Ground fighting had the Gracies.

Even though greco-roman wrestling's been around for ages, before the gracies came on the scene, few serious MAs gave much thought to ground fighting.

As much as I'd like to be the next "IMA" master, I know that's not happening. I simply can't put in the hours of daily training since I have family to take care of.

Anyway, if you're ever in NYC, why not drop by my school and take a look when the instructor is around?

The instructor's a nice guy and if you even like what you see, I'm sure the instructor would be thrilled have studentsthat are serious about putting in a lot of time into this.

Besides, then maybe you'll be qualified to say whether the teacher and/or school is fluff.

[Muppet]

Just to be clear: In case you even have an inkling that I'm make a challenge, I'm not.

I'm just saying swing by if you're ever in the area, cause I think you may like what you see (at least from the instructor).

[Shooter]

No disrespect intended to you or your teacher. You mentioned the problem of trying to sort fact from fiction and I gave you some facts you can take to the bank. Take it however you want, but when people argue those facts, it speaks volumes...


That's nice. You're the only instructor, right? The countless hours spent on drills and exercises like hand pads, body bags, etc. must be a waste

Boxing's boxing and Tai Chi is Tai Chi. Boxing has a much different purpose and mindset than Tai Chi...at least in my view. Consequently, sparring has a different structure. The perception of fighting is totally different. The tactics are different and so are the strategies. I only cite my background and experience so you might consider the fact that I have a fairly good understanding of what I'm doing when I presume to 'teach' Tai Chi Chuan as a realistic fightng method.

You say your poor jab is what's keeping you from sparring...what does that tell you?

Sparring is the only way to nail down the basics of TCC. The main reason TCC is so lame as a fighting art is because it lacks structured training based on a practical combative framework for properly coordinated mind/body development. I looked at the current state of TCC and said, "Hmm..if I structure the training in the reverse order of how everyone else does it, I wonder what would happen" And viola!!! :eek: :p

And yeah, I'm the only TCC instructor I know of who's trained players to be MMA ring-ready in less than a year.

But again, you know best.

[Merryprankster]

Shooter;

Let me get this straight. Are you telling me that instead of perfecting every little detail on a bag or dummy or with drills, you approached training in the following way: Teach them the basics, make sure they are ready physically to handle some sparring (base fitness level, possible mindset issues), and then allow them to take those basics into a laboratory format where they could experiment with them, and discover not only what worked well for them, but what needed adjustment?

Surely you jest!! ;)

[Shooter]

Merryprankster, that's pretty much it. Here's what a person can expect on their first day:

-We stretch and play a little with some different breathing patterns. The purpose isn't so much to get a greater RoM, but to get them relaxed and mentally placid.

-After a light warm-up, we look at rhythm and some basic stepping. There are 3 main types of rhythm people have as per their body-type. We look at the different rhtyhms and corresponding footwork people use to accomodate their particular rhtyhm. They're shown how their rhythm is ultimately going to dictate their basic range-management in accord with the unique rhythmic chemistry they and their sparring partner(s) create. People find their natural rhythm quite quickly and subsequently, they find a breathing pattern which is comfortable for them. Breath-work is key...

-Next, we look at perception issues they might have in terms of actually getting hit in the face and head. They spend about 15 or 20 minutes practicing some impact-management methods of applying the structure to receiving punches. They wear grappling gloves, and stand at arm's length from each other. They're shown how to take shots to the head by tiltting into them and jamming the punch with head-butts, shoulder-stroke and elbow-strike. This isn't to give them anythng more than an empowering shift in perception. Now they won't turtle...they'll stand and fight. Tai Chi is primarily a CQC method afterall.

-Now we look at entry, clinch, and control. We refer back to the corn-grinding Chi Kung they did at the beginning of the class when we were warming up. Corn-grinding is a common, tactical movement pattern everyone uses in a variety of situations. They use the rhythm and footwork they've discovered to be a natural part of their regular dynamic...the one they use when they aint frontin'...the one they use when they're totally natural and relaxed. We go over the 8 Gates a bit so they're able to get separation via Push, Ward-off, Roll-back, Pull-down, and Press.

-At this point (after an hour and 15 or so), everyone who has taken this class, IME, is not only comfortable with the ideas of getting hit and closing distance, they're totally into getting on the mat and experimenting. But first we work through any issues they might have about actually hurting someone else. This is the funnest part for me because I get to feel everything they've got when they're hitting.

-I stand in front of them and have them hit me on the side of the head/jaw-line as hard as they can. I show them "talking-on-the-phone" posture and how they can't really hurt me, but they can move with me and throw their best corn-grinding hooks with good timing and distancing. We switch roles and they're shown how talking-on-the-phone can be modified by rolling the shoulder into the hooks to shoot the legs or throw a straight shot back into me, and outward as they put together some counter-hooks. Now they have all the tools they need to spar (close, clinch, and get separation).

-After a short time playing with the ideas and getting reminded *constantly* to not use a measured rhtyhm, ;) ("step out of range to break up his rhtyhm and reset yourself") we move to some ground-work. We start with one guy working guard and the other passing, then switch. We focus on recovering to the feet from both positions while we look at basic sweeps and elevators, and some chin-na (chokes and locks).

Over the course of the next few months, we work on lots of Chi Kung, 5-Steps, and mat-time. Gradually putting together a personal repertoire of hitting (hands, feet, legs, arms, etc), counter-hitting, throws, takedowns, and ground-work. Trial by error and finding solutions to common points of failure by studying TCC's peculiar principles and methods.

That's it...simple. "but he's not really doing Tai Chi or using "internal" power..blah blah blah..." :p

[looking_up]

Shooter,

What sort of conditioning do you have your students practice?

Is that where the qigong plays a part?

Also, it's hard for me to imagine that you let people hit you with full power in the jaw - are you saying that you know how to absorb their force with your jaw/head? That's pretty impressive.
Please feel free to elaborate on the talkin' on the phone thing.

Thanks

LU

[jun_erh]

I think if s0me0ne issue a challenge and y0u d0n't want t0 accept it y0u just say "n0" and let them think what they want.

[Shooter]

looking_up, do you mean "conditioning" as in toughening? Or as a component of one's athleticism and endurance?

Taking full-force shots isn't so hard when you know they're coming. It's the ones you don't see that put you to sleep. There's no trick to it. Boxers call it, 'rolling with the punches'. I thought every internal stylist practiced the skill? Anyway, they learn how to diffuse the energy of blows right away...either through their structure, or around it. And it isn't like they're hitting each other full power on the first day (they only do that to me).

They're just playing with a bunch of ideas and the main ones are that they have a number of choices as to where they want the blows to land, and that they can find the opponent's hinge-points (center[s]) to stop/jam, or at least soften the impacts while they explore their own footwork and rhythm and play at manipulating the opponent's footwork and rythm. whew! Basically, they're excited about not being afraid of getting hit because they know what to look for in a person's pre-emptive movement cycles and telegraphed intent. Instant 'ting-jin'? :p

Talking on the phone is just like it sounds. It's a posture that looks like you're 'talking on the phone'. It's used to provide a measure of safety in introducing the practical application of 5-Steps and Adhere-Stick-Link-Follow. It just gets them safely inside the opponent's operable range and forces the opp's hand. Just as they play at manipulating the opp's rhtyhm and footwork, they play at manipulating the positional relationship by exploring those concepts.

There's an inherent danger in isolating any one thing in the type of training I offer. IMAs practitioners' propensity for doing just that (isolating) is one of the reasons why IMAs lacks a standard, cohesive structure in the combative training. Over-analysing every d@mn thing!...navel-gazing...

Instead of exploring the synergy and fractal nature of TCC's concepts, principles, and methods, and allowing those things to network exponentially, most players are more interested in refining single portions without any relational context. I'm not saying my way is the only way because I've trained with some TCC dudes who could crush me like a bug and they never trained like I do, but they all respected it. However, they all had backgrounds in some rough and tumble $hit...'little old men' with some mad skills. Ask them about chi-swirling, silk-reeling, fa-jin, blah blah, and they say the same thing...'those skills come naturally when you cross hands often with people who don't care about your Tai Chi'.

[looking_up]

Shooter,

Thanks for clarifying. In my opinion, your approach combined with individual skill training (gong) would be a pretty comprehensive TJQ curriculum, and would probably reflect what real, old school training was like. With time as a limiting factor, I guess one has to choose what sort of skills/benefits s/he wants to reap from his/her practice time.

[Muppet]

You say your poor jab is what's keeping you from sparring...what does that tell you?


I didn't say poor jabbing is the ONLY thing keeping me from sparring, but it is one of the main things.

I'm also working on my side to side movements, trying to work my cardio to what it used to be, etc.

I started boxing training about 4 weeks ago (never said I was an expert :) ) and after talking w/ people and trainers in my gym, what's clear is that most beginners DON'T spar right away and some take a longer than others to get ready.

Anyway, I'm not discounting the value of sparring. Sparring is why I'm taking boxing, after all.

Nor am I naysaying your approach in general, as IMA *IS* a joke for the most part because the lack of sparring is a magnet for flakes :(

However, what I absolutely can't agree with is your assessment that "those skills [meaning fa-jing, etc.] come naturally...".

One of our exercises is springing the body and it involves proper reverse breathing.

For a while, what never quite made sense to me was the various descriptions my instructor would drop (translated for us).

For instance:
- Air should feel like it's going down and rolling and your gut/belt-line level should actually be scrunching into a tight ball
- If you don't LET the yell/grunt come out, you're damaging your insides
- Don't breathe with too much power as a beginner to avoid hurting your insides
- On exhale, the "ball" should feel like it's unrolling

Actually, for a while there I was wondering if this was just mystical b.s. that my instructor mixing because he was taught that way, or maybe as colorful way to impress upon the idea that breathing was important.

However...a couple of things helped to guide and sink home the idea my instructor was trying to convey:
- One of Jarek's articles where he actually witnessed a guy pop up in the air about one feet while sitting cross-legged and w/o assist from his legs/feet
- The reverse breathing and some of the exercises descriptions and demonstrations by Sigman

Now it could very well be that I'm an idiot and/or the difficulty was with learning via translations, but this stuff was very counter-intuitive for me and it took a LONG time of experimention, reading, and more experimentation before I physically hit on something which suddenly made all of it make sense.

How useful is this for sparring? Honestly, I don't know yet, though I do know this exercise is supposed to be fundamental, kind of like jump roping is for boxing :)

Maybe this is just an ace-in-the-sleeve like rooting, where it's only useful under particular circumstances and you're usually better off learning to be evasive.

[bob10]

This whole Mohoney - Wang thing has become on of RMA's hottest topics it seems. I guess it was doubtful from the start the two would ever meet. There seems to be a lot of "preciousness" about teachers in the taiji field, even more so than other Chinese styles, so the chances of Mohoney getting in were remote from the start.

In my time I've seen even regular visitors to class treated with the utmost suspicion and almost paranoia by a couple of teachers, something I've never encountered in any other style.

Now I have heard of, for instance, a top UK karate instructor (Ticky Donovan) asking for a demo partner to show a technique at a seminar and out of the blue the guy who walks out nuts him in the face (then runs from the hall!). But that is hardly a challenge or a "cross hands". Yet in this situation there was every possibilty to sort out everything in advance. It seems insurance and visas were an issue, though apparently not enough of one to prevent a workshop being taught.

Of course now we are asked to move on to more "substantive issues" (though if Mohoney had have been "defeated" would that still be the case?) - though I would have thought how taiji fares against MMA would have been a fairly substantive topic, particularly given the noise made about the uniqueness of the art.
It was also mentioned that Wang happily takes challenges in England, are there any more details available?

[Esteban]

Hi,

hmm, doya think that Bill Mahoney could beat only the fake IMArtists? Personally, it'd be interesting to see NFL linebackers or WWE champs attend some of these seminars. I suspect that they don't because they've got nothing to prove. Oh well, maybe it is laudable to put up money to see it happen. Could be a new table at Las Vegas.
Cheers,
Esteban

[Shooter]

However, what I absolutely can't agree with is your assessment that "those skills [meaning fa-jing, etc.] come naturally...".

Not my "assessment"...a concensus among some people who know what they're talking about. Conscientiousness of the principles and methods (proper training) and time spent testing those principles and methods to failure (ie. crossing hands with people who don't care about your Tai Chi). IME, very few players even understand that process.

Not "fa-jing, etc"...the overall...a synergy of peculiar skills and perspectives contained within the scope of TCC's fighting method (NOT boxing's method). I thought I outlined it fairly well for you. It seems you've ignored the forest in favor of a few trees. This is the main reason (as I mentioned in an earlier post) why IMAs are such a joke. On the one hand, you yourself admit as much - On the other hand, you reject my proven formula for changing that pattern because why? I don't have a Chinese name? I don't cite an illustrious lineage? Maybe it's just too real and demystified?

Anyway...what I see you saying is that you're training these obscure abilities with no context. That, to me, is the same problem I see everywhere. People micro-managing the overall by dissecting it down to minutae (fa-jin, silk-reeling, etc), but having no understanding of how to reassemble things in a combative context. By the time they have these individual abilities, they're too old to get real with it all...too complacent to understand it as a fighting method. People can demonstrate their fearsome 'fa-jin' and 'spiraling energy' 'til the cows come home, but they have no clue how it works against an intelligent and resistant opponent.

nevermind...

What ever works for you, man...all the best to you in your journey.

[Muppet]

Not my "assessment"...a concensus among some people who know what they're talking about.

And yet there's concensus among some other people who know what they're talking about. And they say developing these internal skills is a deliberate and arduous process.

And now that I had a major AHA moment, I'm beginning see why.


Conscientiousness of the principles and methods (proper training) and time spent testing those principles and methods to failure (ie. crossing hands with people who don't care about your Tai Chi). IME, very few players even understand that process.


Probably. But because of the limitations that I've outlined, my approach at this point is to get fairly decent at boxing and the ring and add in Hsing I methods little by little.

Of course, I can't do the latter in my boxing gym so I'm not sure where'd I go at that point for sparring practice, but one thing at a time.


Not "fa-jing, etc"...the overall...a synergy of peculiar skills and perspectives contained within the scope of TCC's fighting method (NOT boxing's method). I thought I outlined it fairly well for you

Again, I'm NOT a TCC person.

TCC's tactics are not Hsing I's tactics.

On the other hand, there's enough overlap between Hsing I and western boxing's tactics and techniques that sparring in boxing would be quite beneficial, especially given my circumstances.


It seems you've ignored the forest in favor of a few trees. This is the main reason (as I mentioned in an earlier post) why IMAs are such a joke. On the one hand, you yourself admit as much -

Not so.

I'm positive that the internal stuff doesn't "just just develop over time", because if that's all it took, we'd have a lot of spectacular Hsing I fighters out there.

The fact is, we don't.

Hebei style Hsing I dispenses with much of the internal training until later, but it is still done deliberately.


On the other hand, you reject my proven formula for changing that pattern because why? I don't have a Chinese name? I don't cite an illustrious lineage? Maybe it's just too real and demystified?


You seem to think that there's only your way, the long-winded way traditional way, or the mystical new-age way, with ONLY the first two giving real results.

I'm saying that :
a). if you don't train the internal stuff at soem point, then you're missing out on an important part of the IMA.

b). There're ways to cope that you haven't considered.

IF I stalled on fighting skills until I became skilled at the internal body skills, then no, I probably wouldn't be able to fight w/ Hsing I within any reasonable length of time.

My plan is concentrating on figuring out this "internal skills" stuff until I'm fairly confident that I'm training correctly--that is, opposed to doing it WELL--with the martial stuff as secondary, then switch gears and start concentrating on the martial stuff with the internal training becoming a route endeavor of improvement.

How well a middle-of-the-road approach works and/or how well I can meld it all together remains to be seen.

[planetwc]

Shooter,

Where do you teach and how did you arrive at this approach of training folks for Taiji?

Your approach sounds very practical and quite appealing.

regards,

[Shooter]

Theory vs practical experience...what a waste!


TCC's tactics are not Hsing I's tactics

You sure about that? :p :rolleyes: Really sure?

How long have you been actually proofing the theories you're repeating here? Months? years? Are you just taking things on good faith when you read the theories of all the non-fighting IMAs experts?

You whine about the poor state of IMAs, but you're following in the prescribed footsteps of non-fighting theorists, and citing them to justify dismissing the ideas that will make you a better IMAs practitioner. :confused:

[Shooter]

David :) thanks for at least considering the approach before chucking it. I'm in northern BC, Canada.

I've developed my approach based on what I brought to the table when I started studying and what I've learned since. My sifu and my second teacher also had very similar backgrounds as mine before they began studying. Both very skilled TCC players, but very different personal methods of applying it.

The fast-wrestling set (ground-fighting) is a natural progression from the points of failure encountered during hi-resistance Tai Chi shuai chiao and chin-na training. No outside influences (video-tapes, formal training, etc) other than my competitive experience against BJJers and Judoka had any part in the way I went about developing the set.

I had a decent base in wrestling and boxing/ring-fighting prior to my Tai Chi training which has also helped in the way I structure the counter-training. I've been informally (but no less seriously) training in a variety of weapons (knives, sticks, swords, staff). I've spent more than a decade sparring and competing with the best grapplers and ring-fighters I can find in proofing TCC's principles and methods on that level.

Other than that, lots of Tai Chi form, chi kung, and mat-time.

Bruce

[Muppet]

Okay shooter, since you seem so certain, explain to me the fundamental tactics of taiji and how they are similar to Hsing I.

Edit: To clear up something, I think what I meant was "strategy", not "tactic".

Also, despite what you may think, I fully intend on sparring and going outside of my own style and school and if I even feel up to it, compete now and then in local MMA tournaments, though I'm not deluded enough to think I'll get very far.

Many of these guys make it their life, I don't and can't.

Anyway, only people in a MA vacuum--admittedly, not a rare exception--haven't seen or at least heard of poor Fred Ettish's beat down.

But I just don't agree that it starts from day one, for reasons hashed and re-hashed in previous posts.

[count]

Originally posted by Muppet
Okay shooter, since you seem so certain, explain to me the fundamental tactics of taiji and how they are similar to Hsing I.



HAHAHA Not similiar, the same.


Wuji==>Taiji


:D :rolleyes: :cool:

[Shooter]

The 5 Element fists are contained in lots of different Tai Chi sequences.

[Kuen]

Hey Shooter

I like your ideas and training methods. I'm not a TCC guy but if I was I'd look you up!

[Muppet]

No, what I mean how is taiji fighting strategy is like hsing i's?

I can see that forms like "fair lady" is very much like "fire fist" and "deflect, parry, and punch" is reminiscent of "earth fist".

But this is missing the forest and seeing a couple of trees, as the five elements don't really give you the flavor of the style. It's just a bunch of abstracted punching/kicking techniques.

Let me explain, with the caveat that my only understanding of taiji fighting is second hand info.

Hsing I's general approach is to bust in and attack relentlessly.
The so-called Hsing I "push hands" exercises lets the student get a feel of this. That is, driving in with one attack after another after another. This is nothing like taiji's push hands.

Now like taiji, Hsing I avoids hard blocks and meeting force with force directly as you'll see in hard styles like karate and muay thai.

Unlike taiji, however, and from what I've seen so far from the teacher, Hsing I has no emphasis in letting the opponent's attack become spent before countering or borrowing from the opponent's power to reflect it back.

So if the opponent attacks, I counter-attack simultaneously, slipping around and/or deflecting an attack while moving in and "through" with a barrage of strikes, a jam/knock down, or chin-na if you have the skills (and I sure as hell don't).

From that sense, boxing is a fair way for a Hsing I guy to get up to speed in some sparring, since we learn to get comfortable slipping into an attack and counter attacking.

Not to mention boxing familiarizes a person with getting hit.

But the main differences are that from the get-go, boxing has a lot of emphasis in slipping in, getting in a whatever hits, and then slipping OUT.

The side-to-side and circling/pivoting movements you see in boxing are also largely absent in basic Hsing I foot work, which actually brings me to a question I need to ask my instructor the next time I see him.

How does this compare with taiji?

[Shooter]

Muppet, you asked about tactics. The 5 Element fists comprise the tactical core of Hsing-I. No worries about changing what you MEANT to say. :p

what I said earlier-"The mental and emotional component (-) is the most important facet of the training. Our perceptions govern our actions. The better you understand how you'll respond to your perceptions, the better your odds of avoidance, evasion, and resolution."-(read; the internalization of your mind/body connection)

That's the glue which holds your martial art together...no matter what you study.

You may have basic day-to-day survival strategies and training strategies to guide your combative development, but reality says, "either your 'style' goes out the window and you do what needs doing, or the odds favor the house". IOW, strategies based on styles are a sucker's bet.

The tactics of TCC and XY have always had lattitude for instantaneous/spontaneous adaptation and evolution on a deeply personal level (the genius of it all). As far as training strategies, TCC's and XY's follow the dynamic and spontaneous interplay of yin/yang, specific movement and energy-management principles, and the internalization of your mind/body connection. That's the forest of congruence. Not a tree in sight...

There are basic strategies which are common to any sound fighting method. They deal with terrain, environment, "the psychological aspects of predatory and random violent attacks", psy-ops, etc.

Each point in your last post comparing TCC and XY...second-hand info indeed. It's pretty clear who keeps bumping into trees. Some of it may work and some of it won't. Don't tell yourself all that stuff...it's all BS until it becomes reality.

The only strategy you should have is to not have preconceived strategies. Stay centered and spontaneous...be ready to play some Jazz.

[Shooter]

Kuen, thanks for saying so, man.:D

[byond1]

Im still trying to figure out the importance of saying "the 2 white guys" ...is there some problem with caucasion's? if someone said the "2 black guys" there would be world war 3 and everyone involved would be accused of being a biget....and it doesnt seem to me that a "white guy" would make such a big deal about the other white guys... how about we try.."the 2 students of wang" ....that has a universal appeal and is descriptive in a proper manner
Sorry guys, bigetry in any form is a pet peve of mine......
\
The challenge that i read about in this post seems typical for most m.a, lol, imo......talking yourself into sounding like the "kung fu killer from hong kong"...is marketing .....and is "hong kong fuy", if you ask me......put up or shut up

[taijiquan_student]

Or, how about we try "The two students of Wang, who's sex and/or race we shall not mention, for God forbid we be sexist and racist bigots". That's even better.

Sorry, PC bullshi.t is a pet peeve of mine. Continue with the long dead discussion folks!

[bob10]

I'd guess the point he was trying to make was that the students were white as opposed to Chinese. And from what we are told about taiji the white guys wouldn't "have it", not having lived and trained in Chen village all their lives.