What is The Best Way to Form the Phoenix Eye Fist with your Hand ?

[FIRE HAWK]

What is the best way to form the Phoenix Eye Fist with your hand ? Different types of China arts form it differently .

[Shaolin Master]

There isn't any one way really as it depends on the trajectory path (angle) of its use and power generation methodology.
The best way is then dependant on the styles traits and for this reason differs.
Many say it one way or another, but in reality it is due to their pre-programmed training.
Don't worry about you hands shape as much as your hands reason.

:)

[yuanfen]

Good points Shaolin Master. Delivery systems and angles can vary- changing the details of the fist.

[phoenix-eye]

Do you mean where the thumb sits?

I've seen it done with the thumb only resting on the top of the middle finger and the bent index finger forms the striking point.

Alternatively, the middle finger wraps around the thumb whilst the index finger still forms the striking point.

I do it the latter way. This was awkward at first but gives a little bit more solidity to the fist form.

Or do you mean which finger is used for striking?

[FIRE HAWK]

That is what i mean the thing with were the thumb is placed on the finger , I have seen Wing Chun people place the thumb on top of the index finger Gin Foon Mark of Jook Lum Southern Mantis places the thumb on top of the index finger to like the Wing Chun people , other Southern Mantis styles and Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye fist and Pak Mei place the thumb on the side of the index finger with it resting on the middle finger .

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by FIRE HAWK
other Southern Mantis styles and Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye fist and Pak Mei place the thumb on the side of the index finger with it resting on the middle finger .

That is what I was taught.

[Crimson Phoenix]

I do it the well-known way of resting the thumb on the nail of the folded index...
Firehawk, you know, the best thing is still to take a good heavy bag and see what version gives you the most steady hand formand impact, in other words which version feels best for you...
After you can do some jings in the air to verify that there's not a version you may be faster with (it can happen depending on the tension you place in your fingers when performing it)...

The best way to do a phoenix eye fist, eventually, is the way that is best for you...don't bother too much over small details after...

[Sasha]

Can someone elaborate on the 2nd version PE described? I think the first is the version I've been taught, but I've always felt it's a pretty hefty gamble - that I could end up doing far more damage to me than to them.

Also is there any particular way to condition the phoenix knuckle, since it's not the knuckle you'd normally strike with?

[phoenix-eye]

The second way is formed as below:-

Place thumb against palm (in same sort of position as for normal closed fist)

Close fingers (excluding index) to form fist, over the thumb.. the tip of your thumb should now be on the inside of (enclosed by) your middle finger.

Bend the index finger to form the striking surface as normal.

As I said - this seems to give a bit more solidity to my own strikes but there is no right or wrong way.....only what works for you I suppose.

As regards toughening up the striking point - the books on Chu Ka show a method were you hit 4 dense rubber discs on a board fitted to a wall. Alternatively , just hit the heavy bag.

Cheers
PE

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by FIRE HAWK
That is what i mean the thing with were the thumb is placed on the finger , I have seen Wing Chun people place the thumb on top of the index finger Gin Foon Mark of Jook Lum Southern Mantis places the thumb on top of the index finger to like the Wing Chun people , other Southern Mantis styles and Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye fist and Pak Mei place the thumb on the side of the index finger with it resting on the middle finger .

I use the second method. I find it has better structure than the former.

Do you guys alter the orientaition of your hand when using the strike? I've started utilising the strike with the palm down - using a horizontal flick. Just plain nasty possibilities.

FYI - fiercest tiger is a big fan of the Pheonix Eye techniques. I think he has some material on his site www.yaukungmun.com.au.

[Crimson Phoenix]

there are many possible angles for the fist (palm down, up, sideways) and wrist when using the feng yan...it all depends on the target and how you intend to strike...

[fiercest tiger]

I'll be adding the article of ykm phoenix eye fist on my site soon as well as the ykm history that was in the lastest magazine called the Warriors Way.

Next issue is on YKM level 1 iron palm conditioning method etc.

I hold my fist like pulling a trigger on a firearm, if u all know what i mean?

I also hold the index and middle in a double phoenix eye for temple shots and going for more then one pressure point at one strike.

FT:)

[Sasha]

How about this (which feels the most comforatable to me):

Close all fingers except index and thumb. Rest thumb over the middle finger (bottom section of it). Curl index finger over thumb.

Dunno if I described that well, but it's the best I can do off the top of my head. Would there be any particular problem doing it that way, cos it feels more stable than both the other two.

Though saying that, I get the feeling if I hit something harder than a basic tap in any of the positions I wouldn't be left with much use of my index finger...

[Yum Cha]

I don't mean to criticise you, but I think its important that people understand that the technique you mentioned is probably the best way to break your thumb that I can think of, other than laying it on an anvil and smacking it with a 16oz hammer.

Seriously, this fist is made to hit things hard. If you can't sustain hitting a punching bag with the Fung ahn Choi, do you think it will work any better on your opponent? Proper technique is crutial, and it turns your fist into a fearsome weapon if done properly, or possibly a disabilitating self-injury if done improperly.

So let me reiterate, do not wrap your index finger around your thumb. If you don't believe me, try it softly on a punching bag, and the facts will become obvious.

[fiercest tiger]

I use more the hammerfist and palms for the hard targets and the phoenix eye for softer and vunerable areas, just incase it breaks!
hopefully not but this comes with plenty conditioning and correct angulation of the strike.

An easy and inexpansive method to condition the P/EYE is to punch the grass so it can slowly build the muscles and fist up. start with soft surfaces and build it up if its weak!!

FT:)

[Sasha]

YC, I'm not gonna take offence to you being more specific. Just in terms of sitting in front of a computer, hitting the palm of my other hand with a phoenix eye, that seemed to be less painful, but I made it up off the top of my head, so I wasn't expecting a positive response. But could you save me a broken thumb, and describe more closely why it's such a bad idea?

[Yum Cha]

If you make a fist with your thumb curled inside, the force of the blow will collaps your hand onto your thumb and break it.

Let me comment on the way I was taught. I was not allowed to make a phoenix fist in public for my first several years of training. Si hing and Sifu would take hold of my fist and force it back into a basic fist and say, don't do that.

I was taught how to make a basic fist by rolling fingers into a fist one set of joints at a time to make it as tight and hard as possible, thumb folded down around the face of the fist. And, to strike with two knuckles.

Only when I could do that properly was I shown how to properly make a Phoenix fist, and it wasn't until much later that I had the strength and technique to learn how to really use it.

It is an advanced technique I think I can say in all fairness, not easily accomplished without a good teacher.

[tnwingtsun]

"Just in terms of sitting in front of a computer, hitting the palm of my other hand with a phoenix eye"



Be very careful when you strike your palm,I'm not sure what the
pressure point its called.

I have been told that it leads to the heart,so if you're hitting
that spot,its just like hitting the heart over and over again.

My friend that was very high up in the Bando group died of a heart attack,some say it was because of improper methods
close to what you describe.
Except his was more of a hard core method,flat palming trees very hard.

You might want to consider curling your palm at the last split second of impact so the meat
under your thumb and pinky finger take the shock and protect the middle heart point.

YC and FT could probably add to this and tell us what these points are called,I'll ask Sifu at Sundays CNY dinner.

"If you make a fist with your thumb curled inside, the force of the blow will collaps your hand onto your thumb and break it."

I agree with this so much it makes my nuts hurt and I hear fingernails scratching the chalk board.


"Sometimes I get really bored,light my nipples on fire and
run very fast into a brick wall"

Howey Mandell