REHASH - Jiu Jitsu MASS BIULDING WORKOUT-SEVENSTAR!

[ricksitterly]

This is a follow up post to my original "lifting - a waste of time" thread.
I'm sorry sevenstar but your comment about how jiu jitsu is not the way to build mass is completely WRONG. I gained 15 pounds of muscle in a little over a year's time doing only grappling. Food and water intake is the MAIN component to gaining mass. NOT your weight training program. As long as the muscles are being stressed in some way, shape, or form, they will take a high calorie diet and transform the calories into muscle ( provided you are eating the proper amount of carbs and proteins). I maintain that grappling is an excellent mass builder as it provides a full body strength training workout, as opposed to a weight training program which only tends to work specific groups of muscles- mainly just the larger muscle groups such as shoulders and pectorals. The more workouts you add to your weight training, the more muscles you can excercize.... BUT, the more workouts you add to your weight training the longer it takes, burning more calories which must be replaced afterwards in order to gain mass. Also, due to the larger span of time it takes to work the entire body with a weight training program, you are at a higher risk of suffering the catabolic effects of overtraining. Grappling gives you a more intense full body workout in a short period of time. This is key for building mass. Don't believe me? Try grappling a 200 lb man for ten minutes straight.

[Brad Souders]

I've been grappling for ten years this year. I weighted 135 pounds when i first started grappling. I now weigh 135 pounds ten years later. I eat like a horse. I believe its more of your own body type then it is whee grappling itself does it. Grappling just tones the muscle out instead of actually building mass. I'll agree it does rip you and obviously the cardio is second to none but i don't believe its the massive muscle producer.

later, Brad "try grappling five guys 5 minutes each that out weigh u by 60 pounds" Souders

[morbicid]

I suppose if you grapple in a low weight class you can maintain a low weight, but if you put yourself against much bigger people, (trying to resist an armbar from someone 40 pounds heavier for example) than you can build mass in your grappling workout.

[kenso]

I think the amount of muscle mass you build will be dependent not only on body type but also your style of grappling. Body type will also determine your style to a certain extent. An ectomorph (skinny) isn't going to approach the game the same way an endomorph (stocky) will. I'm 5'6" and 185 lbs. I have short thick legs (27" inseam, 23" circumference). I can't leg ride or triangle choke worth a doody. Your body will predispose you to certain maneuvers. Some people will prefer power moves, others more subtle techniques. This is partly body type, and partly mindset.

Certain people will tend toward weight gain based on body type, regardless of the activity (assuming intensity is high in all cases - obviously you're not going to get ripped playing golf). Others will tend to tone already existing muscle fibers. However I do think that certain activities will tend to give more mass to more people than others. Weight training for a martial artist should be an additional training tool, not the end all be all. To say that it is worthless in the arena is disproved IMHO by all the dedicated artists who are also dedicated lifters. I personally prefer body weight exercises, but I would certainly never tell someone who lifts that it's not doing them any good - that is up to them to decide. Only they know their own body.

Rick, I'm glad that grappling has had such great results for your body, but it is only your body. In fact, most grapplers don't gain weight simply from grappling. I wrestled in high school. Throughout the entire season working out three hours a day, I wouldn't gain a pound. This is good, based upon weight class. However out of season, when I would tend to lift more (actually had the energy to) I would gain weight. Again this is only an individual result.

Ultimately it is up to each person to determine the methods that work best for them. There are no universal methods that will work the same for everyone. When they say "results may vary" they're not kidding. ;) Anyway with the amount of material available, we all have the resources to maximize our training regimen, and in the end that's what it's all about, right?

[SevenStar]

I tell you what.... you keep grappling. find a buddy who wants to start a mass building program. in a few months, compare results. I grapple 200 + pound men 15 - 20 hours a week.

Also, think about something you said...

"BUT, the more workouts you add to your weight training the longer it takes, burning more calories which must be replaced afterwards in order to gain mass."

what burns calories? Do you really think that if you grapple for an hour you will burn LESS calories then someone doing heavy, slow lifting for 30 mins? you're crazy if you do. either that or you are half arse grappling.

Anyway, it's my lunch time, and I'm about to hit the gym and work out. I'll come back to this thread when I get back.

[Ford Prefect]

LOL! Good stuff!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ricksitterly
This is a follow up post to my original "lifting - a waste of time" thread.
I'm sorry sevenstar but your comment about how jiu jitsu is not the way to build mass is completely WRONG. I gained 15 pounds of muscle in a little over a year's time doing only grappling. Food and water intake is the MAIN component to gaining mass. NOT your weight training program.

Here's my take on that - you weren't in stellar shape to begin with. Take an obese, inactive person and put them in MA. What happens? they will lose weight, provided they don't increase they're caloric intake. On the same token, take a skinny person and put him in MA. The skinny guy eats alot and he is doing push ups, stancework, etc. What happens? he gains weight and develops more musculature. The body is adapting to the workout and his muscles are getting stronger. He's eating alot so he's gaining weight. What's gonna happen is after a while, that will stagnate. your body is used to the stress levels put on it and muscle development stops. your workout is then more endurance based. endurance work is not muscle building work. If you are burning more calories than you burn while grappling, then what will happen is you will gain weight, and it will be stored as fat. You won't continue gaining muscle mass from grappling alone.

As long as the muscles are being stressed in some way, shape, or form, they will take a high calorie diet and transform the calories into muscle ( provided you are eating the proper amount of carbs and proteins).

Calories aren't transformed into muscle....protein is what builds muscle. All calories aren't protein - if you are just haphazardly eating alot in an attempt to gain muscle, you will be in for a nice shell shock later... And, like I said before, that statement is wrong - the type of stress you put on the body does matter. that's why people weight train differently for different activities. Do you really think a marathon runner trains the same way as a football player? if so, why aren't the distance runners hyooge? it's not solely because of their diet - it's because of their training. The body can only be in one state at a time - anabolic or catabolic - it can't be in both.

I maintain that grappling is an excellent mass builder as it provides a full body strength training workout, as opposed to a weight training program which only tends to work specific groups of muscles- mainly just the larger muscle groups such as shoulders and pectorals.

And I maintain that you are WRONG. grappling is highly aerobic. it's a fat burner. see my above comments to understand why you have gained weight and a little muscle.

The more workouts you add to your weight training, the more muscles you can excercize.... BUT, the more workouts you add to your weight training the longer it takes, burning more calories which must be replaced afterwards in order to gain mass. Also, due to the larger span of time it takes to work the entire body with a weight training program, you are at a higher risk of suffering the catabolic effects of overtraining.

That one paragraph alone shows you don't know much at all about mass building...

Grappling gives you a more intense full body workout in a short period of time. This is key for building mass.

if you are grappling for short periods of time, either
1. you're half arse grappling, or
2. you're gettin tapped really quick and are having to restart.

Don't believe me? Try grappling a 200 lb man for ten minutes straight.

as I already stated, I grapple 15 - 20 hours a week - I know what it can do for me. My advice to you is to read some books about mass building and about the body in general.

[rubthebuddha]

gonna have to side with sevenstar on this one. why? because he's right. also, because he's hyooge and would squoosh me.

i don't understand how someone can think that the type of exercise isn't the biggest factor in body type for athletes. a long-distance runner and a body builder can eat the same amount of protein, carb and fat, and spend the same amount of time training and working out, and what do you know? the runner's body is tight, compact and light on its feet. look at the lifter, and you'll see mass, and plenty of it.

the body won't build muscle mass it doesn't think it needs. it doesn't take much strength to run, but to do it for long periods of time, you need endurance and lots of it. so the body will adjust itself to make the running easier -- a lighter weight, compact muscles and a very efficient respiratory system. it knows it doesn't need huge muscles to perform its movements, it just has to keep them well stocked with air and fuel.

on the flipside, a lifter's body needs mass to move mass. best way to do it? let your body know that it needs more mass by lifting regularly, and it'll realize, "hey, this will be easier if i make these muscles bigger." does a lifter's body have any reason to work on a respiratory system that can push itself for hours? nah, because one can get huge with relatively shorter workouts. it just needs lots of strength to use during those workouts.

i don't understand why this is even an argument. a person can get strong from doing any physical activity if they weren't that strong to begin with. a person who can't do a pushup will find that they will be bigger when they are later able to do ten. a little less so for 20. beyond that, you're not going to get big by being able to do 100 straight.

[Royal Dragon]

One of the major precepts of modern exercise phisiology is that the body changes best with variety. That being said, wouldn't the body develop better if you grapple, AND lift??

Instead of making this an either or kind of senario, why not blend the two. I bet the results of blending grappeling, and weight lifting will be far superior to doing only one or the other.

Any thoughts guys???

(Like I don't know what your going to think here :D )

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
One of the major precepts of modern exercise phisiology is that the body changes best with variety. That being said, wouldn't the body develop better if you grapple, AND lift??

Instead of making this an either or kind of senario, why not blend the two. I bet the results of blending grappeling, and weight lifting will be far superior to doing only one or the other.

Any thoughts guys???

(Like I don't know what your going to think here :D )

Depends on what your goals are. If you are trying to put on pounds, all of the caloric burn from grappling can prove counter productive. If you are trying to lose weight, go for it.

variety keeps the body on its toes, but that's not how... if you grapple and lift, the body gets used to grappling and lifting. After it's accustomed to it, that's when you shock it and vary the routine.

[ricksitterly]

The fact that your grapple 15 - 20 hours a week (or whatever) sevenstar indicates that you are a more relaxed type grappler. Not that I'm saying that's a bad way to grapple, as it is a trait of an experienced grappler to remain relaxed and use good technique as opposed to brute force. However, if you tend to overexcert yourself and use too much energy when you grapple (which beginners tend to do and find themselves extremely fatigued in a matter of moments), the muscles are getting a more intense level of stress. This doesnt indicate smart fighting strategy, but it does give the muscles a highly intense workout. As a beginner in jiu jitsu, I remember feeling like my muscles were on fire the next day after a workout. As Kenso said, it depends on your style of grappling. As you become more skilled, you learn to rely on technique rather than strength, which is fine...but will not challenge your muscles.

"Here's my take on that - you weren't in stellar shape to begin with. Take an obese, inactive person and put them in MA. What happens? they will lose weight, provided they don't increase they're caloric intake. On the same token, take a skinny person and put him in MA. The skinny guy eats alot and he is doing push ups, stancework, etc. What happens? he gains weight and develops more musculature. " - sevenstar

I have no argument with this. It proves my point... an inexperienced athlete can benefit from trying out a grappling class just as well as joining a gym and they will notice improvement in their body's muscular build. That's exactly my point!! Of coarse your body will reach a point of stagnation after you've been grappling for a long time... just as it will in a gym! In a gym, you must increase the weight and lower the reps - in grappling, you must in crease the size of your opponents and the level of intensity in which you grapple. Ten minutes of straight grappling on the mat should be exhausting no matter how experienced you are, or else you are simply grappling too relaxed to get a workout from it. You grappling 15 to 20 hours a week is equivalent to doing very high rep excercizes with weights in that your muscles are so used to the workout that they are just getting endurance training at this point. I also have no argument with the fact that your natural genetic body type is a huge factor in whether or not you will make gains from grappling (OR in the gym). I liked royal dragon's comment about how the body responds best to variety and I agree. This is why I crosstrain between different styles of martial arts at different times of year. I phrase things the way I do simply because I love getting you guys all worked up. hehe No need to insult my knowlege of muscle building (or lack thereof).

I also KNOW that all calories do not promote muscle growth and I've posted about it several times. However, just because muscles are made of protein doesnt mean a high protein diet will build them up. If you are not eating enough carbs the body will burn proteins for energy (often taking them right from muscles). Also it is proven that a high protein diet dehydrates you... which curbs muscle growth as muscles are roughly 70 percent water. Have you noticed that the main people marketing this theory of high protein = big muscles are the same people trying to sell you protein supplements? Carbs intake is just as important (if not more) than protein intake. Some of these protein shakes have over 50 g of protein in a serving. Your body can only absorb roughly 30 g of protein every 3 hours (depending on the individuals metabolism, abundancy of digestive enzymes such as hcl, and provided they dont have a malabsorbtion problem in the intestines( due to inflammation or mucous secretion) ). Also, some people's digestive systems simply "dump" excess protein right back out. I never take protein shakes because they give me the runs. And dont forget about amino acids ( primarily L- glutamine ) which are a MUST for building mass. I also try to keep a healthy amount of sodium in my diet to help my body keep all of the fluids I am drinking.

"what burns calories? Do you really think that if you grapple for an hour you will burn LESS calories then someone doing heavy, slow lifting for 30 mins? you're crazy if you do. either that or you are half arse grappling" - sevenstar

OF COARSE NOT! I am saying that 30 minutes of heavy slow lifting will not work as many muscle groups that grappling can. And if you grapple intensely enough, a half hour is sufficient. Not an hour. But 30 minutes of lifting usually is not enough to get an effective full body workout (if you intend to work chest, back, shoulders, bi's , tri's , forearms, abs, neck, traps, quads, gluts , and calves). But then again, a lot of people alternate muscles groups from day to day. And like I said, 15 to 20 hours a week of grappling is TOO MUCH. You are risking OVERTRAINING if you grapple like this with any intensity. Are you familiar with the term "overtraining"? Maybe you're the one who should do some reading.

[Royal Dragon]

Every individual has different levels of conditioning at different times of ther lives. Example: in my Mid 20, I could hold postures pretty much for ever on a daily basis. Now, of I were to hold my old routine even 2 minutes, I'd be over training. Two years from now (if all goes well), I'll be needing to wear a weighted vest wile holding the same amount of time I did in my md 20's, just to continue progressing.

Seven Star is a pretty serious player, and 15-20 hours a week may not be over training for him, not even close maybe. For you, it may be over training. It all depends on each individuals fitness level.

As for the technique over brute force thing. Yes, over time we relax into our skills, and it becomes much less physically demanding. This is why the Chinese martial arts always include Qi Gong practice with the martial. In the beginnig the martial will develop you quite a bit. But as you mature, and you learn to use the structure, and body mechanics, the practice is too easy from a physical stand point, and you need to do supplementary training to keep developing physically.

It's all common sense really.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

something i dont understand rick ...

earlier you mentioned how all that time spent on lifting could have been better spent learning to fight. i agree with you here. i was just thinking the other night about how many of us vain fu ckers have six packs. ab routines are great, but all that time spent doing crunches and cardio could have been better spent drilling and sparring (which is also good cardio). how many great fighters do you see with six packs vs. those without? the six pack certainly isn't going to hurt, but it doesnt seem to be as common as a strong round stomach or a fairly flat one. im also willing to bet that a good number of the fighters who do have six packs are genetically blessed with good definiton from naturally low body fat. this is all coming from a guy who will be starting up ab training again so i can look better with my shirt off.

so i agree with you on one point, but in then in this thread you say how sevenstar is probably grappeling very relaxed and thus not getting as much of a workout as a newbie ...which is true .... but it sounds like you are saying that it's a bad thing .... that you should overexert the techniques for a better workout. that completely contridicts the argument of time better spent. why the hell would you force techniques for the sake of a better workout? maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how it came accross to me. i'm no grappler, but one thing i have learned from messing around with some of my friends who are is that relaxation is a huge advantage in grappeling. i remember one time when one of my friends managed to get on top of me in the butt fu cking position (not one of the ones who actually knows how to grapple) and i just acted like i was gonna buck one way and then the other and let him go nuts trying to control me .. as soon as i felt his energy draining i easily flipped him on his back and landed on him with a forearm in the throat. it's not just grappeling either ... relaxation is key in every standup art i have seen. even my muithai sides are much stronger due to learning to relax everything that isn't actually involved in the movement.

weight lifting is like cross training in other styles ... it may not directly benifit the main fighting style, but it benifits other areas where the individuals needs or wants improvement, thus making them better rounded and a better fighter overall. you don't need to lift to be able to fight ... strength isn't everything ... but it wont slow down your martial progress if balanced right either.

[morbicid]

Hey gunned down atrocity -

[morbicid]

Wow you really put that smak down on sevenstar rick. Nice come back. I would be interested in seeing who would win in a match between you two. He was RUDE to insult you like that.... Me, I cant be bothered by your stupid grappling theory because I know I would just explode your head with my chi!!!! I dont require mass building. So I dont care if you're wrong or right.... I'm too busy with my head explodee. Grapple your little butts off.... it's nothing compared to my chi!!!!!!!!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ricksitterly

in grappling, you must in crease the size of your opponents and the level of intensity in which you grapple. Ten minutes of straight grappling on the mat should be exhausting no matter how experienced you are, or else you are simply grappling too relaxed to get a workout from it.

the size of your opponents can only increase so much... once you are grappling the biggest guy in class, you can't increase weight, only time, which makes it an endurance exercise. As far as strength training goes, there is a fundamental flaw there - force and tension decreases as speed increases. Consequently, you can't get progressively stronger from grappling as your muscles can't exert as fully as they are capable of. Theoretically speaking, you would get stronger from grappling slowly, as you would be facing slow resistance for a longer period.

I phrase things the way I do simply because I love getting you guys all worked up. hehe No need to insult my knowlege of muscle building (or lack thereof).

I'm not worked up by any means but, you said:

But 30 minutes of lifting usually is not enough to get an effective full body workout (if you intend to work chest, back, shoulders, bi's , tri's , forearms, abs, neck, traps, quads, gluts , and calves). But then again, a lot of people alternate muscles groups from day to day. And like I said, 15 to 20 hours a week of grappling is TOO MUCH. You are risking OVERTRAINING if you grapple like this with any intensity. Are you familiar with the term "overtraining"? Maybe you're the one who should do some reading.

which is wrong. If you are training to get mass, that is not the way to do it. mass training is short and sweet. It can easily be done in 30 - 45 mins.

Also, you pointed out the fact that relaxation was a more advanced skill - what are you going to do when you get there? are you going to keep grappling like a beginner in hopes of gaining mass?

[ricksitterly]

"Also, you pointed out the fact that relaxation was a more advanced skill - what are you going to do when you get there? are you going to keep grappling like a beginner in hopes of gaining mass?" - sevenstar


Actually... YES! lol . And I'm not saying that I can grapple like the gracie clan, I'm actually much more experienced in tae kwon do (13 yrs now ). But I am at a decent level with my jiu jitsu. I've been doing it a little over three years - in addition to two years in judo when I was younger. I know how to grapple in a relaxed state, but I enjoy adding intensity to it to vary the excercise( it's only a class after all, no medals are being given out). The only reason I started jiu jitsu was because I wanted to become a more well rounded fighter and expand from just doing striking. After a year of grappling, the only reason I CONTINUED doing it was because I loved the workout it gave me. I'm confident enough with fighting on my feet that I feel I only need basic ground fighting skills (just in case) to get me through a self defense situation on the street.

Also, GUNNED DOWN ATROCITY --- thanks for pointing out my contradiction. I actually didnt notice I was doing that, but now that you've pointed it , I'm not surprised. I'm full of contradictions - I just enjoy throwing different concepts out for the sake of conversaton (argument). As for the six pack thing... I am one of those people who just naturally have one, like since I was 12. It doesnt seem to matter how much weight I put on either. I get a little fat on my stomache but it still looks like a six pack. Oh well, I'm working on it... some day I will be a fat slob. Until then, I'll just dream. As for the grappling... Did you have to call it the butt fu *king position???? OOookay.

"why the hell would you force techniques for the sake of a better workout? maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how it came accross to me." - gunned down atrocity

---- reply ----- um... I guess it came across the RIGHT way. Kinda like I told seven, I force techniques just for the hell of it. Maybe it's being ignorant and defiant of the art, but I'm not in it to build skill (which is actually kinda unavoidable anyway... continuous grappling WILL make you a better over time). All I care about is 1. How much fun I'm having
2. Am I getting a workout
Lifting weights just bores me to death. Sue me. I lifted weights all through high school. Maybe I'll pick it up again one day... like if I find a gym with lots of hot chicks on treadmills. Anyways thanks for the feedback.

MORBICID .... uh..... I dont know what to say to you. Thanks? What do you say to someone who says they explode heads? Good job I guess.

[SevenStar]

okay, now back to the original topic. Why on earth do you think you can't make those mass gains with weightlifting? You've still privided no proof as to why grappling is superior for mass building.

And what type of mass building program were you doing that did multiple exercises for the whole body all at one time?


EDIT - this is a test to see if I can ttt an old thread from before the forum update.

[ricksitterly]

I am bored to death with lifting weights. I actually feel a sickness in my stomache when I try lifting nowadays. I am one of those guys who's out there looking for an alternative.... desperately. I'm 5' 10'' and have always been fairly lean. However, try as I might, I never seem to get my body weight over 170 lbs.
Let me explain why I'm so against lifting weights a little -

I think I lead you guys to believe that I have little experience lifting, but the truth is, I have done quite a bit of lifting in the past. However, I HAVE taken as much as a year off of lifting to do just grappling, and did experience some nice gains in strength while doing this. When I DO lift, I do bench press , pull ups, and squats mostly. I hit the incline bench, and occassionally do the rowing simulation machine where you sit and pull the rope pulley thing in toward your body. I do about 3 to 4 sets of 6 repetitions with most excercises. I keep the weight heavy but not to the point where it makes the joints hurt. Right now I'm about 163 lbs which is good, considering I'm just recovering from having anemia for 5 months. I was down to 142 pounds over the summer and had night sweats where I would lose like 4 pounds in just a couple days. Eating had no effect. When I finally started feeling better I hit the gym pretty hard to get back in shape but the results were just.... odd. I seemed to actually be losing mass from lifting weights. I could lift almost the same amount of weight as before I got sick... my bench only dropped about 10 pounds really. From 200 to 190 with sets of six. So while I hadn't lost much strength, I lost a LOT of size and weight. Is this good? Well I hated it!! I suppose this indicates that I had lost mostly just water weight and not a lot of actual tissue because I was still almost as strong as before. I suppose my hatred for weight lifting is from trying to do it while sick, and watching my weight drop almost 30 pounds even though I was trying my best. Anyways, maybe i'll give lifting another chance some day, right now I'm just too frustrated with it and would rather stick to grappling.

[yenhoi]

Each time you post, its like you actually know less than the time you posted before that.

SO what we now have 2 rotton threads concerning how much you dont want to learn? What the hell.

Leave seven star out of your random journeys in weight lifting la la land.

[Royal Dragon]

If your lifting and getting smaller, you have Aids or something. I can't even *Look* at a barbell without getting bigger.

[SevenStar]

he's a hardgainer. I bet he's an ectomorph. with a strict program and eating properly, he can gain - it'll just be extremely hard.

rick won't dedicate to a lifting program right now though, because he doesn't like to lift... he feels about lifting the way I feel about running. I still make myself run though.

rick, I think I understand you now - you don't necessarily think that grappling is better, you're just frustrated with lifting and are searching for an alternative that will still put mass on you. What about less conventional lifting, like kettlebells? I think if you had a good mass program and the will to do it, you'd get results you're looking for. from the sounds of what you've said about mass training so far, your program wasn't right. Whenever you decide to start lifting again, there is plenty of mass training info on the training forum.

One last thing - I looked at your site... PLEASE, no kicking with ankle weights, it's only asking for trouble...

[ricksitterly]

Royal dragon - youre a moron. Didnt I just say that I had anemia ( low red blood cell count due to iron deficiency in my diet). I have been getting bigger lately - I'm back up in the 160's and in a very short time frame. That aids comment is inappropriate... I have a friend that is HIV positive.

Yenhoe ... i mean Yenhoi.... I dont need criticism from someone who has been training " 2.5 " years and calls themself a
" sevenstar groupie " . Technically, you're still a MA beginner - regardless of how many posts you've made on this forum.


Thanks for looking at the site sevenstar. It's not really a "serious" training site - hence the anime' pictures :) Just something me and a friend of mine put together for fun.

I know that training with ankle weights can cause irrepairable damage to the knees over time. I only do this training method when I'm preparing for a tournament and never train that way for more than two months or so. Luckily, I haven't had any problems with my knees. A lot of competitors at my tkd school are really big on that training, they'll actually take a sparring class while wearing the ankle weights. Only time will tell if they're going to cause harm to their joints in the long run. I suppose it's almost inevitable.
When I train with ankle weights I usually kick a heavy bag - this puts less stress on my retracting muscles and on the tendons and ligaments ( as the bag stops the kicks for you, instead of your knee).
I must admit I've noticed big improvements in my speed from the training. Although I havent really trained with ankle weights in about a year.
TKD training also is a factor on why it is so hard for me to put on muscle. It is very high endurance. We also do a lot of running and very high rep kicking n punching workouts.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ricksitterly

Thanks for looking at the site sevenstar. It's not really a "serious" training site - hence the anime' pictures :) Just something me and a friend of mine put together for fun.

I know that training with ankle weights can cause irrepairable damage to the knees over time. I only do this training method when I'm preparing for a tournament and never train that way for more than two months or so. Luckily, I haven't had any problems with my knees. A lot of competitors at my tkd school are really big on that training, they'll actually take a sparring class while wearing the ankle weights. Only time will tell if they're going to cause harm to their joints in the long run. I suppose it's almost inevitable.
When I train with ankle weights I usually kick a heavy bag - this puts less stress on my retracting muscles and on the tendons and ligaments ( as the bag stops the kicks for you, instead of your knee).
I must admit I've noticed big improvements in my speed from the training. Although I havent really trained with ankle weights in about a year.
TKD training also is a factor on why it is so hard for me to put on muscle. It is very high endurance. We also do a lot of running and very high rep kicking n punching workouts.

That's an interesting spin on it... everyone I know that's ever done it did it regularly, not cycled it. I wonder how much that would slow things

[ricksitterly]

When I was 17 i trained with ankle weights regularly.... Probably for about a year. That was the only time I did it regularly. The problem with that is doing weighted kicks regularly ( I found ) eliminates their purpose- which is to get the muscles "thinking" - "wow, something is holding us back, better get stronger/faster". After a while of training with the weights I noticed a certain stagnation - in that I didn't notice any improvement with my speed or strength as my legs were just so used to dragging around the extra 10 pounds. So I stopped using them for a long while but the next year when tournament season came around I tried training with them again just for the he!l of it. Alas! It was a challenge again. The biggest improvements that I can actually feel occurr only in the first 2 months , so i stick to that time frame. Of coarse, one could just keep upping the weight strapped to their ankles to keep pushing the muscles, but I imagine this increases the risk of injury. This isn't based on any research, it was just me adjusting to how my body felt as I trained. Anyways it seems to be going ok.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

kicking with weights is fine as long as you kick slow.

bah ... no one ever listens to me though.

[TKD]

What do you guys think of training with a rip cord? I've been looking at the plus and minuses of this for some time now. I have really strong kicks but absolutely no speed. You guys have trained much longer than me and seem to have much more experience in fitness training so I figured I'd ask you, "experts";) . Just joking, seriously, any input is appreciated.

[ricksitterly]

tkd pros like juan moreno and herb perez give the rip cord a lot of support. But then again, they are sponsored athletes and are paid to do so. I've been to some of their seminars and training camps and they showed some pretty good excersizes with it. I have used it in the past, but found it very boring to have to stand kicking in the same spot, over and over, tied to this elastic leash thingy. On the flip side of what weighted kicking does, the rip cord can make a strength imbalance in the legs I hear. As it works the quad muscle very hard but the retracting muscle hardly has to work at all (the rip cord pulls your kick back FOR you). Also, you are kinda forced to always pull your kick back and land in the stance you started in instead of landing in front with the kicking leg.

But, to answer your question, YES, the rip cord can (and probably WILL) help you develope a faster kick if you train seriously with it. I would recommend balancing it with a high rep kicking workout that doesnt use resistance. <<Just my opinion

[SevenStar]

a bungee cord can be very useful. I use it for practicing off balances (judo) and occasionally I punch with them. you can also build pulleys, which is what is used in shual chiao. with the pulley, you can add weights to the other end, as oppsed to only using a cord.

[TKD]

Thanks for your thoughts guys. I think I'm going to get one and give it a whirl. If my legs get so unbalanced that I can no longer post because I can't walk to the computer at least you'll know what happened to me!:D

[IronFist]

Thanks for your thoughts guys. I think I'm going to get one and give it a whirl. If my legs get so unbalanced that I can no longer post because I can't walk to the computer at least you'll know what happened to me!:D

His last post was on 6-13-2003 (http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/search.php?searchid=21929). You don' t think that happened, do you?