Hostage 'choke and knife' hold

[dnc101]

Someone asked what to do about this on another forum, and I thought I'd throw it out to you guys.

The situation is that your assailant is behind you, his left arm around your neck and his right hand holding a knife to your neck. You are being pulled backwards and off ballance and possibly draged backwards as he tries to escape. You are reasonably sure that this psycho will kill you once he no longer needs you, so you must act.

I'll tell you that I've tried a few techniques and none of them work that well. But I did learn or reinforce som basic principles so it wasn't a waste of effort. Those principles are:
*Sieze and control the knife hand.
*You must also neutralize or control the left around your neck. It can quickly be converted to a choke. But even if he doesn't get a good choke, as long as he has control of your neck or head he owns your ballance and controls the rest of your body.
*You must reestablish your base, regain your ballance, and work quickly for position. It's hard to do anything while backpedaling on your toes or rocked back on your heels.
*You should destroy or check his base quickly, taking him out of the position of advantage.
*If you have the time, relax and wait for him to make a mistake. try to work the hold loose if possible.

What do you do? What principles would you use? Have you tried to deal with something like this under force ?

[MightyB]

I think about this scenario, among others, quite alot and have come up with a reasonable defense for it. I really can't describe it too well with words but it isn't the modified headlock to chicken wing that you see taught in most schools because IMHO that move is BS and would get you killed for trying.

I'll attempt to try to describe with typing what I think is a good counter. The guy's got his left arm around your neck, knife/gun to your throat/head. Taking a position of compliance you raise your hands slightly-- this is normally not seen as threatening since it's an international sign of submission. This has to be executed explosively fast. Using both hands, sieze the weapon hand and move it so that it's aimed away from your face and fully extend the assailants arm on an angling motion so that both his arms are above your left shoulder. Hyper extend his arm over your shoulder.

[yenhoi]

Wasent that thread on this forum? If not, then there was one just like it not too long ago. :D

Anyways, your dead if he wants you dead. Keep all those things in mind and take action.

:eek:

[dnc101]

MB- interesting approach. I'll have to work with it with a live dummy.

I tried it in the air and so have some ideas about your method. The only way I see for the grab to work is if the hands are opposing. That way as the relative angle of his arm increases the anatomical strenghts of your arms support each other- the left initially has more strength pulling away, but as you extend further the right pushing out has more strength. Also, the opposing grab would not allow him at any point to work against your thumbs and break the hold.

Another thing I think I'd do is step out to 9:00 with my left foot (not too far) into a horse stance, then as I pull/push out on his weapon hand I'd step back into a forward bow (description below) buckling the inside of his left knee. This would establish my base while disrupting his. It also allows me to use opposing forces to increase the power of the move.

At this point I need a body to see how it would work. As soon as the knife cleared my neck I'd turn my head away from the inevitable choke and tuck my chin, so I should be able to get his arm over my head for the break. After the break use any technique for a rear one arm choke.

Does this sound similar to what you had in mind? Do you see any problems, or have any further suggestions? I'll try it and see how it works, and I'll let you know. Thanks for the suggestion.

forward bow - a stance similar to the TKD front stance, except not as wide. The front foot is turned at about 45' and the front knee bent. The back leg is straight and the back foot points forward. As used in this application, the right leg shoots back forcefully against the inside of the opponents left knee, buckling it outwards slightly. Depth of the stance is such that you can pivot into another stance without moving either foot, if you so choose.

[dnc101]

Yenhoi- I must have missed that thread here. I did have one about a knife to the back a while ago. Is that the one you're thinking of?

On the forum where this was originally posted there were several replies. I came up with a couple of techniques also. But I tried them all and they did not work reliably. The best let you choose where you want to get cut. Some depended on getting a joint lock on the knife hand- unreliable at best. Some siezed the knife hand while you turn and strike- you are expending energy while leaving a choke in place. Others had you locked up and grappling with a knife between you and your opponent. MB's suggestion here, while it doesn't immediately deal with the choke, sounds like it might work with the least chance of getting your pelt perforated. Maybe you could play around with it a little and let us know what you think.

Edit: I checked, and that thread was 'Knife to the Back' posted on 11-01-2002. You did bring up the point there that he'd probably grab you around the neck if he put a knife to your back.

[dnc101]

Here's one of mine from the other forum:

As I see it, you have three immediate priorities: control the weapon, deal with the neck lock (choke), and reestablish your base.
>Immediately right hand grabs his right (weapon) hand- make sure you get the hand.
>Your left grabs his left wrist. The timeing on this depends on the relative positions of his hands. If the left is covered by his right, you may have to delay your left so as not to interfere with yourself. Turn your head away from the choke and tuck your chin.
>Simultaneously with the first two moves step back with your right foot to 6;30/7:00, between his legs, into a left forward bow which should buckle his left knee outward. This reestablishes your base while compromising his and positions you to use leverage for your next move.
>As you pivot into a left neutral bow pull out and down with your right, anchoring your right elbow. Your left pulls away enough to loosen the hold and give you room to work.
>Step through reverse, going under his left arm. You now have him unballanced, leaning right, arms crossed. At this point he's yours, so I'll let you finish the technique any way you want.

This one worked reasonably well against force (as opposed to dojo style). Believe it or not, I had the most trouble with a short, he11 for stout little ex Aiki, JKD opponent, and that is where its weakness showed up. Anchoring my right elbow, while giving good leverage and getting the knife hand down, put the knife level with my diaphragm and my thumb toward me. He was able to pivot around right enough and work against my grab so that as I steped out I definately got cut in an area I'd just as soon have fully functional. How bad is a matter of debate, but any cut at the diaphragm is serious in practice since you have to assume the worst if it was the real deal.

[dnc101]

Another of mine, lifted from that forum:

This one stumped a few people here- general consensus being that if it gets to that point, you are in trouble. The best suggestion was from my Tai Chi instructor, who said to relax, stay centered and focused, and wait for him to make a mistake. He'll probably be tense, which is to your advantage as you can more easily feel his focus and intent. Also, if he's not intent on killing you immediately, he'll have to let you go at sometime so you can comply with his demands. For a woman she suggested the line 'I can't get undressed if you hold me like this.' Might work if you're in prison also. Just make dang sure you win if you use that line in that situation!

[MightyB]

I tried to post a MPEG movie where I demonstrate the move. It won't attach and I don't have a website. Any suggestions on how I can attach it?

I won't be back until monday after 5pm EST, but, if you have a solution, I'll try to get the vid to you.

[MightyB]

PM me with an email address and I'll just send you the clip. I won't be in again until Monday though.

[dnc101]

MB, I'll get that PM to you .

One place I think my version needs work- as you bring that arm over to position for the break I think you'd have to let go with your right. Good place to do a right back elbow strike. Like I said, I'll have to play with a live dummy and see how it works.

Edit: MB,I tried to contact you, but couldn't use either the PM or e-mail functions. You have to edit your profile to enable these functions. Alternatively, I've edited mine so you can PM me fi you want. It's not something I'd considered when I originally joined the forum, so mine was never enabled 'till now. As for putting up an MPG, I have no idea how to do that here. What I need for that kind of thing is a HELP link for the technologically impared! :)

[dnc101]

Ran through this with a couple more MA's, including an Escrimadore. Nothing we tried worked reliably, including the last one here (though I won't hear from Mighty B till next week, so don't know for sure what he's got). I should point out that I'm saying these techniques don't work reliably with different opponents of varying size and skill levels with minor variations in positioning of feet and hands. I'm not saying that they don't work at all. However, once you start to get those arms extended you are strength against strength as you are loosing leverage. If he can force it down enough that you can't step under then you are in trouble again.

I hate to say this, because the BJJ folks already have a complex (:p ), but a BJJer is the only one I've come across with a viable move. I'll see if I can describe what he did:

Reach up with both hands and grab the knife hand and wrist (right, in this case) as you step out to the right into a low horse. Pin the knife hand to your chest and immobilize it. You may get cut, but this is a far better place to get cut than the throat, and if done explosively the move should limmit the ammount of dammage he can do.Step your left foot forward and bend at the waist, keeping the knife hand pinned. The grab he had was such that the left fingers griped over the base of the thumb which put enough pressure on my hand to cause me to drop the knife. From there he could drive me to the floor or step under and break or lock my arm.

The general consensus is that nothing is foolproof once you are locked into this hold. You are playing the odds- what are the chances he will kill you as opposed to your chances of successfully defeating his attack? The Escrimadore, Tai Chi and Ving Tsun opinion was that you should use sensitivity and wait for a mistake. Good advise. But if you just have to do something right now, I think I'll go with the BJJ version.

Any grapplers out there who can give some of the finer points or tips when using this type move?

[rogue]

The BJJ move is the same one I learned in JJJ. Vlad Vasiliev of Systema fame has one where he uses his chin. I'll have to dig through my systema tapes and try it out.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i would cooperate.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Ironically, in Shuai Chiao we have a move where we use the chin too - sort of. It's a silk reeling thing.

[MightyB]

DNC101,

Did you get the vid? Post what you think about it after you've seen and tried it out a couple of times.

[dnc101]

MB- nope, didn't get it. I PM'd you.

I worked a little more on that BJJ move tonight. It seemed to work well and left me in good position no mater what he did, or what 'what if' we threw in.

rogue and MS2- useing your chin? You lost me there guys. The only thing I can think of to do with my chin is turn and tuck it to help deal with the choke. I don't think I'd want to depend on it to trap and hold the knife hand, and certainly not the knife itself. What are you doing with your chin?