PTP and newbie in the gym.

[premier]

So.. I just went back to school last week and I thought of taking advantage of the free gym. I'm a total n00bie in the gym, so bear with me. Luckily, I have a gymnastics teacher classmate who'll propably help me out.

What do I want?

Mostly speed and explosive strength, because that's what we need as martial artists, right? I won't go for the mass yet. Maybe later this spring. So I thought of starting with PTP kind of training and normal bodyweight exercises for endurance and do each in 2 week cycles. I don't know about the bodyweight thing yet, but on PTP I thought of going to the gym 5 times a week monday to friday. So there's 10 training days in the cycle.

Anyway. There's no way I can afford Pavel's book right now so I'll need your help.

Could you tell me what kind of exercises it involves, how many sets, how many reps, how much time between reps and sets, and how do I determine the correct weight? Is there something that I need to take into consideration, considering that I have no experience in the gym. Less weight etc?

If this seems like a really bad idea all together, feel free to guide me to the right direction =)


premier

[dezhen2001]

hey premo...

dont have any advice as im a skinny sob anyway :D just wanted to say hi - been aaages since i last chat to ya - i remember those days in the kfo chat hehe :)

take it easy!
dawood

[premier]

dezhen! =D nice to see you. I'm kind of out of the chat scene at the moment apart from IRC. And lately I've been boycotting these forums because of the situation in the southern forums, and I still think my time could be used more productively :D

I heard you found religion and your life rules right now. That's great =) I wish I can make a similar change in my life. The first step is already taken. Now I need to find a job, any job, and get myself a hot girlfriend :D I've learned that it sucks to be broke and alone.


premier

[Lung Hu Pai]

hey premier, i think there's an older thread in the forum where Ironfist wrote down the routine from PTP.

[dezhen2001]

premier: yeh things are slowly getting better, its taken long enough! lol :D hopefully i can keep going and things will have a good ending :)

im sure you will get a chance sometime soon, and i hope your training is going well!

dawood

[premier]

ok. I checked out http://www.dragondoor.com/pavel_routines.html

It said "5, 5 @ 90% of the 1st set". Does that mean you do 2 sets of 5 reps at weight that's 90% of the 5 reps maximum? I read someone writing here, maybe IronFist, that the weight should be your 10 reps maximum except that you do only 5. I guess that's almost the same, but is there a difference?

Also while I was reading the posts here I got a picture that there's two ways of doing PTP. One with same weight through the cycle and other with weights getting bigger in the end of the cycle. Did I get it all wrong and if I didn't, what's the difference between those two?

I was wondering about the biceps exercises.. I suck at pull-ups. I can barely do 5 reps. Should I start with weights or just do pull-ups without going to failure as often as possible?

And about the deadlifts.. you do 5 reps, but the weight touch the ground between each rep, right? should the muscles be relaxed or just go to the next rep right away? And I've had little problems with my lower back. Do you this it would be a better idea to do squats instead? Deadlifts look like a big strain on the back.


premier

[IronFist]

Start with your 10RM, yes. Do 5 reps with that, wait 3-5 minutes, do 5 reps with 90% of that, done. Each day add 5lbs to the first set, and calculate the second set accordingly. Round to the nearest 5lbs. Say your 10RM was 100lbs

Day 1: 100 x 5, 90 x 5
Day 2: 105 x 5, 95 x 5
Day 3: 110 x 5, 100 x 5
Day 4: 115 x 5, 105 x 5
Day 5: 120 x 5, 110 x 5
Day 6: 125 c 5, 115 x 5
Day 7: 130 x 5, 115 x 5
Day 8: 135 x 5, 120 x 5

Ok you get the idea now. Once you get to a point where you can't do the first set for 5 reps (usually around day 12-16 or so), you take a few days off and then start over again with 5 or 10lbs more than your last cycle began with. So using this example again, you would start your new cycle like this:

Day 1: 105 x 5, 95 x 5
or
Day 1: 110 x 5, 100 x 5

Depending on how strong you felt.

Do it 5 days a week. Take 2 off. 5 Consecutive days is better, I think. So like do it M-F and then take the weekend off, or whatever.

The only thing is that, while this does build raw strength really fast, it does absolutely nothing for endurance.

This kind of training stresses your nervous system a lot, so as the pounds get really heavy (especially if you do deadlift or squat), you might start feeling nervous system fatigue (I guess you could call it that). You'll see. You might feel kind of shakey or wired throughout the entire day. It kind of sucks, but it's cool because you're getting stronger. This is a warning sign that it might be time to end your current cycle pretty soon. It only happened to me once, however, when I went nuts with deadlifting.

But since it does stress your nervous system more so than your muscles, you won't be sore at all (once you get used to the initial shock of weight lifting) which leaves you fresh for martial arts practice.

Good luck.

IronFist

[premier]

Thanks for great reply, IronFist. It all makes sense now =)


premier

[Rolling Elbow]

All you do is deadlift (4 or 5 versions of it) or side press. A curl if you choose to..not much to the book, i have it as well.

Careful though, do not get overconfident too quick with deadlifts, i put out my back doing them 2 weeks ago and i am not going back to train for another 2 to be safe. No hockey, no training, nothing. all i do are chins and ba strengthening exercises right now..

[premier]

Yeah.. I figured they're not too gentle to the back (deadlifts). So I guess I'll just squat at least for the first cycle and wait until the core and back gets sufficient power to handle the deadlifts. Sure squats put strain on the back too, but I guess it's a bit safer than deadlifts?

[IronFist]

If you do them right, deadlifts are awesome for your back. If you've never done the movement before, practice it over and over with no weight just to get the motion right. Pavel's book is actually not as clear as it could be in describing the motion.

A lot of people do deadlifts wrong, so it's probably not a good idea to ask someone in the gym to show you.

Practice it with no weight looking in a mirror head on, and then looking in a mirror to the side. But do NOT look to the side if you are actually doing it with weight. As Pavel says in his book, twisting your head while deadlifting is very bad and can lead to injuries.

Here are some points to look out for:

Are your hips centered as you come up (some people have a tendency to sway their hips to one side)?

Are your elbows straight? Never deadlift with bend elbows. You lose power.

Is your head looking up?

Is your back arched? Keep your back tight.

And don't forget to tighten your abs before you start to pull, as well as during the entire movement. This helps keep your lower back tight and is probably the most important part of the movement.

Good luck. Be careful. Start LIGHT!

IronFist

[premier]

So. Tomorrow is the last day of the first week of my first PTP cycle. At the moment my legs are sore because we did some jumping the class yesterday. Before that there was some slight ache in my legs, but I guess that's just because I'm not used to weights. It was propably more on the nervous system and connective tissue.

I did squats (because of my back), bench press and barbell bicep curls. When I squatted I noticed that my core was way too weak and the form was a bit wobbly, so added some sit ups and back exercises to the program. Not too much though.

I had a little bad luck with the bicep curls. First day I did my second set with too little weight and second day I got kicked out of the gym before I got to the second set! (It's my school's gym and the teachers had it reserved). Today I did some chin ups instead, because I think better exercise. Anyway, the problem is that I suck at chin ups. I think I can do about 5 clear chin ups and that's it. Today I did 3x3 with about 4 minutes rest between the sets. I doubt that's the best way to do it, so any ideas?

How to build up to 15-20 reps when I can only do 5 at the moment? Most of the pull up articles on the web are about weighted pull ups and how great pull ups are, but there's nothing for weak *******s like me.

Oh. and one more question. Is there some useful exercises I could add to the program?

oh.. and one more. If it happens that I reach my limits on some lift before the 8th exercise day, should I stop or just go on and do it as heavy as I can with 2x5 reps?


premier

[Mr. Bao]

Greetings:

I am a big fan of Pavel's works but he isn't god tho, ex-commie *******. LoL.

P: "Anyway. There's no way I can afford Pavel's book right now so I'll need your help."

Bao: go to the bookstore and read the book for free or if you have balls steal the book. LoL.

P:"Could you tell me what kind of exercises it involves"

Bao: Dead lifts, Chest Press, single arm shouder press, bar curl

P: "how many sets, how many reps, how much time between reps and sets,"

Bao: two sets/5 reps/ 5min rest.

P: "and how do I determine the correct weight?"

Bao: Pick a load which you wont go to muscular faliure. Build from there.

P:"Is there something that I need to take into consideration, considering that I have no experience in the gym. Less weight etc?"

B: Go read the book or steal it. Find someone who is smart and knows about lifting weights, not the local muscle heads. And ask them to look at the stolen book and show you how to perform them correctly or simply show you the proper form.

P: "If this seems like a really bad idea all together, feel free to guide me to the right direction =)"

Bao: I have tried. If you need some information on how to steal books I have a friend who knows how. I am from nyc, you learn many useful things. Me personally I dont steal because I was raised by good parents who beated me bloody good as a child so I am kinda conditioned in certain things.

[premier]

Thanks for replying, Mr. Bao =) but didn't you notice that most of those questions were already answered? Well. thanks anyway =)


premier

PS. No. I didn't steal the book =D It's special order item over here.

[abobo]

I'll get this one before Steals McBao.


Today I did some chin ups instead, because I think better exercise. Anyway, the problem is that I suck at chin ups. I think I can do about 5 clear chin ups and that's it. Today I did 3x3 with about 4 minutes rest between the sets. I doubt that's the best way to do it, so any ideas?

How to build up to 15-20 reps when I can only do 5 at the moment?

This is what usually happens when you mix newbies with chin-ups, so here's the scoop...

Pavel and others approach pull-ups like so:
1) Never work them to failure
2) You can 'grease the groove' by a few sets daily. This is called synaptic facilitation, basically building up volume with a specific movement, but not to the point of overtraining.
3) Do them in ladders to keep the volume high and fatigue low
eg) 1 2 3 4 5, 1 2 3 4 5....
It gives you a break every time you start over.
4) Emphasizing the negative can further stimulate strength and growth, but it necessitates longer recovery periods.

I will add:
- Experiment to find a rep / rest scheme that works for you with the ladder. Resting long enough to avoid failure is key.
- Feel free to vary your grip every once and a while. Also, it's never to early think about grip strength - pull from both ends of a towel for a challenge.

Once you work your way up to weighted pull-ups, you might modify your approach. If your goal is raw pulling power rather than strength endurance, you'll obviously need the kind of high intensity-low rep-long rest interval approach that you are already familiar with via Power to the People. Also, muscle balance becomes more important, with your grip, shoulders, midsection, etc.

You'll find more at:
http://www.cbass.com/Synaptic.htm
http://www.cbass.com/Pavel'sLadders.htm
http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode2&articleid=69

[Mr. Bao]

"McBao", abobo?

I am vietnamese american and Abobo turned me into an Irish Man? Me steal? Nah, I will not steal anything. You gave good advice on chins, I do the same thing for my back routine.

I would also suggest something I have used with much success. I would hook my 16kg kettlebell on my foot and do some chins. When I think I cant do anymore before failure I kick off the KB and like magic I can do 3-4 more reps.

I hope this helps. Hides your Kettlebells or I will steal it. LoL.

[fa_jing]

But what exactly is the "point" of PTP? Nervous system stimulation only - would you need a different kind of workout for muscle building and strengthening??

[abobo]

How can I put this...

"Tension in a muscle can be progressively increased by activating more and more of the motor neurons controlling the muscle, a process called recruitment of motor neurons" (1)

And more powerful contractions => more strength

For muscle building, there are some variations of PtP, which you can find on the "Pavel's routines' link posted earlier in this thread. Another variation can be found here (http://www.girevikmagazine.com/Girevik/Second/workout.htm).

Otherwise, yes, you can find other routines for mass. The really important part there is eating well and sleeping well, though.

(1) Biology by Campbell, Reece, and Mitchell, 5th ed.

[fa_jing]

hey, that link to Inverse progression PTP was interesting. Thanks

[abobo]

Originally posted by IronFist

This kind of training stresses your nervous system a lot, so as the pounds get really heavy (especially if you do deadlift or squat), you might start feeling nervous system fatigue (I guess you could call it that). You'll see. You might feel kind of shakey or wired throughout the entire day. It kind of sucks, but it's cool because you're getting stronger. This is a warning sign that it might be time to end your current cycle pretty soon. It only happened to me once, however, when I went nuts with deadlifting.


I pulled a heavy set of weighted pullups yesterday and today I am feeling this.

[greendragon]

Premier, you want "speed and explosive strength" ? you won't get it from muscle. Muscle building slows your speed. Explosive strength comes from the ground up. It is technique.
Sure it's OK to have muscle strength but if you want it for martial arts goals you are on the wrong path.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by greendragon
Premier, you want "speed and explosive strength" ? you won't get it from muscle. Muscle building slows your speed. Explosive strength comes from the ground up. It is technique.
Sure it's OK to have muscle strength but if you want it for martial arts goals you are on the wrong path.

I feel.. a great weariness come over me... as if all that was about to happen, has happened before.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

... an erie scilence steals the air as ominous black clouds gather in the horizon ....

[Golden Arms]

Why dont I put it this way....Mike Tyson is a heavyweight and do you think he is slow?...i will let someone else put it a little more bluntly if you dont get what I am saying.

[Cyborg]

Common delusion... you're confusing muscle mass with strength. By following the ptp routine I have made good gains in strength and not gained an ounce of weight. Look at marathoners, they use body weight but can they run fast? No, you want a sprinter for that. Look at the body weight difference! Sigh... I'll let Ironfist or somebody else do it, I don't have anymore time to waste this morning.

Oh yeah, on the subject of biceps don't do curls! Do chinups... you know, like pullups but palms facing towards you instead of away. Why? Because you don't want to isolate. Unless you WANT to look like frankenstein.

[abobo]

Curls aren't that bad. Unlike some isolation movements, they seem to translate to everyday activities like carrying boxes or shoveling.

But yeah, I've seen many people in the gym with disproportionately large biceps on a less than spectacular physique, and something doesn't seem right about that.

In my experience the really strong folks seem to have well proportioned legs, big triceps, a thick back, and big forearms more than anything else.

[abobo]

A quick note on speed - strength is good for your speed unless you do strength training at the expense of MA training, cardio, and agility, etc. If you get stronger and keep working on techniques that you want to apply your strength to, you certainly shouldn't get slower. Also, explosive movements will definitely help.

If you get bigger there may be some intertia issues, but for most people that will never be an issue.

[Cyborg]

No, I didn't mean that the bi's are useless... just that the way I see most people work them is all wrong. Using strict form, preferably one handed curls are ok, I just find that pullups work better.

Greendragon, I apologize for being short and somewhat rude. However, I have seen large men who are alot faster than the average MA'ist. I refused to lift heavy weight for a long time 'cuz I thought I would get huge and slow. Boy, was I wrong!

[rubthebuddha]

bump, cause this one should be handy for the newbs. :)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by greendragon
Premier, you want "speed and explosive strength" ? you won't get it from muscle. Muscle building slows your speed. Explosive strength comes from the ground up. It is technique.
Sure it's OK to have muscle strength but if you want it for martial arts goals you are on the wrong path.
And as newbs will be reading, it should be noted that this post I have quoted is the complete polar opposite of correct.

[premier]

Hehe. More old threads resurrected.

Well. My last experiment failed miserably after the first cycle. I was training too hard in kungfu at the moment and didn't go easy enough with the weights.

Now my kungfu schedule has eased a lot because I'm trying to find a new art and school. So I have more time for weight training.

I'm reading PTP at the moment and I'm going for the bear, because I wan't to bulk up a little and gain more maximum strength. But I still want to keep up the muscle endurance and cardio-vascular endurance. So I'm trying to figure out how to cycle.

I was thinking of doing 2 weeks (1 cycle) of Bear and then switch to calisthenics for a week or two. So I would have strength/bulk cycle and endurance cycle. There's some questions though.

But is two weeks or one bear cycle enough to do any good for strength and bulk?

I'm also intrested in doing H.I.I.T. for cardio-vascular endurance. Should I do it all the time or limit it to strength or endurance cycle? I'd rather do it during the strength cycle, but will it interfere with strength and bulk development?

edit:

One more question about nutrition. I'm currently taking creatine and I have recovery drink with 3:2 carb : protein mix for recovering from hard kungfu workouts. I'm thinking of buing more protein for the Bear workouts. Maybe whey after workout and some "night time protein" for the night. Will they do any good? I'm also trying to decrease the fats in my diet.

[Toby]

I've always been too scared to try the Bear. I've been scared of hypertrophic workouts ever since I started PTP. Don't want to put up with the detrimental impact on my MA classes.

Anyway - and this is just MHO obviously - 2 weeks is way too short on the Bear. I'd go for 4. Why? Because unlike PTP you're only going to be able to work one muscle group at a time, every couple of days. If I did Bear, it'd be e.g.:

Monday: Heavy DL or squat, light bench (not Bear), light pullup (if able).

Wednesday: Heavy bench, light others (not Bear).

Friday: Heavy pullups, light others (not Bear).

So doing Bear for 2 weeks you're only hitting each muscle group twice.

HIIT: I do it all the time. Probably depends on what exercise you choose. I row and that doesn't heavily impact my other stuff, but it definitely does slightly. I used to sprint, and that probably affected me moreso (with squat and DL).

Protein: I mix calcium caseinate and whey 1/2-1/2. At night calcium caseinate would be better since it forms a curd in your stomach and is absorbed slowly (up to 8hrs). It also contains less fat than whey.

BTW, who was that Mr. Bao guy? He seemed a little obnoxious :p.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by premier
Now my kungfu schedule has eased a lot because I'm trying to find a new art and school. Ooh, this sounds more interesting to me! ;) Why are you changing?

[premier]

Well.. Let's just say I wasn't content with how things were organized. I don't want to go in to details in public. :)

[Serpent]

Send me a pm?

[FooFighter]

Originally posted by Toby
BTW, who was that Mr. Bao guy? He seemed a little obnoxious :p.

Toby, I stole a PTP book for you and now for such a rude comment about Mr. Bao I will keep it for myself. LOL. You know what, maybe your right, Mr Bao does sound obnoxious. Probably never read PTP or worked out his or her entire life.

[Toby]

:D

[FooFighter]

Seriously, I am thinking of selling all my Pavel's materials. If anyone interested, let me know.