fitness careers

[stubbs]

hi all,

i was just wondering if anyone had ideas on how i could use my enthusiasm(sp?) for fitness in a career. i've been looking around online at jobs in the fitness industry and it seems that gym receptionists get more money than the instructors. lol.

i know it's a highly competitive industry to get into but i was hopeing someone could offer a bit of advice. im 18 and have no fitness related qualifications (at the moment im studying A levels in economics and psychology)and i haven't made any fixed career decisions yet.

im also interested in anything martial arts related, nutrition, meditation, qigong, and shiatsu.

how hard is it to get into and where's the money at?

cheers,
stubbs
________
Italian Recipes (http://www.cooking-chef.com/italian/)

[Losttrak]

The money you earn depends on what you can put on the table. If you have no fitness skills or specialties.. get some. I would suggest joining 24 Hour Fitness as a trainer. They will get you your cert for free... then you can stay on or quit lol. That how alot of peeps do it... hehe. Take some classes on various training methods (weights, cardio, etc) so you arent teaching peeps a bunch of unhealthy junk. From that point on you need charisma and enthusiasm. In the end, its you who decide your personal worth...

[Kungfu boy]

Losttrak is on the "right trak".... sorry couldn't resist.

But he is right. 24hr will certify you for free and alot of people do start out there. I believe a class(like when your in front of a teacher) is better for the basics, so you can ask questions readily etc. You can get all other certs online. I am looking into getting certified this year, after that I want to get a few speciality ones through the net like diet and nutrition stuff.

The more certs you have=the more you get paid= the more likely the clients will stay with you and even suggest you to friends etc.

You see what I mean? As for martial arts it helps alot as well. Use me as an example: I do Muay Thai kickboxing, probably one of the most physically demanding martial arts. I need alot of leg strength, pretty good abs etc. And never forget cardio, or even a strong neck. The neck thing comes from getting punched in the head, strength there is paramount.

I know I rambled but I think you get the point. You need to have enough knowledge to accommadate anyone you train. But NEVER FORGER CARDIO! (see Another PT Horror Story thread)

HAHA later guys

Brian

[Serpent]

Stubbs, check the validity of the courses. As you're in England, you might want to make sure that any certs you get will be recognised in the UK.

[Liokault]

In the UK u need no qualifications guy.


And the money in your interests comes from corperate days and seminars.


The corperate days kind of seem like selling out and you are way to young to do seminars.

[Kempo Guy]

Besides getting a certification to become a fitness trainer, why not go on with your studies after your O-levels and study nutrition, exercise physiology etc. at a University? Once you have your degree there are more options for you... You can for instance go on and get an advanced degree and become a "physical therapist" for instance. Even without an advanced degree you'll have some basic training in the area.

KG

[IronFist]

Just because I feel like ranting.

The fitness industry has an amazing potential to suck. Allow me to give some examples:

Case 1: People are stupid. While I was a personal trainer at my university, there were many conversations like this one:

Client: Hey IronFist, how many situps do I have to do each day to lose my gut? Is 500 enough?
Me: Well, doing situps won't make your stomach smaller at all. ::gives explination about weight loss, fat loss, caloric deficit, etc. Explains how to lose weight.::
Client: Well, I read in a magazine that 500 situps per day will make my waist small and give me a sixpack, so I'm going to do that.

Case 2: People are afraid of weights. Especially women.

Me: Alright, now let's discuss some basics of weight training.
Women: Oh no! I don't want to lift weights! I don't want to get big!
Me: ::Explains how weights won't make you big, especially if you're a woman, especially if you don't eat like someone who's trying to get big::
Women: Yeah, but I don't want to lift weights because I don't want to get big.
Me: See that skinny guy over there? He's been trying to get big forever, lifting weights for 3 years, and he's still skinny.
Women: Yeah, but I don't want to lift weights because I don't want to get big.
Me: ::slaps self in the forehead::
Women: Can we just use weight machines instead?
Me: Weight machines are generally inferior to free weights because...
Women: Machines are better for "toning." I want to get toned, not big. Weights make you big. I don't want to get big.
Me: Well, you certaintly seem to know everything already, maybe I should be paying you for lessons. :rolleyes:

Case 3: People are stupid, part 2. As a general rule, the more you look like a bodybuilder, the more clients you will have. I guess this is somewhat related to the "don't trust a doctor who isn't in better health than you are" thing, and since people equate big muscles with both health and weight lifting knowledge, it is understandable.

Case 4: People are lazy. Since most college students can't afford personal training full time, I would give them a few lessons during the first week, and then meet with them once in a while throughout the semester to check up on their progress and stuff.

Me: Hi, again. How much progress have you made?
Client: Well, not much.
Me: How come? Did you follow the program I gave you?
Client: No. I didn't work out very much, and when I did I didn't follow your program. How come I'm not any stronger than when I started?
Me: Oh boy...
Client: I didn't eat very good, either.

Case 5: Personal Trainers are not dieticians. At least not at my school. As a personal trainer, I am legally prohibited from giving out diet advice. I knew this, but it's hard to talk about working out without mentioning diet. I got in trouble for it once. It was bull****. Some client told my boss that what I told them differed from what the dietician told them. I didn't even remember giving this client diet advice. It must have slipped out, and probably consisted of something like "to lose weight you must burn more calories than you consume." ****. Sorry for stating a scientific principle.

Anyway, these dieticians, do you know where their diet info comes from? Software. Yay. I'm not saying the program sucks, because I've never seen it. But it probably does. Why? Because it probably differs from what I would tell them. And everyone knows I'm always right.

Holy ****, that last sentense sounds like something Maddox (http://maddox.xmission.com) would say. Maybe I should go back and edit that later.

Rant over.

Personal training can be fun, but you need patience. The general public is heavily influenced by the media, and we all know how the media misconstrues nearly everything dealing with fitness. It will take a lot of work to overcome these misconceptions in your clients' minds.

Good luck.

IronFist

[IronFist]

Wait, I thought of one more!!!

Case 6: Personal Training Certifications are bull****. That's right. You can go take a course and a test over a weekend seminar and then be qualified to help other people work out. Yeah, ok. So tell me, how much did you learn, and remember, from that weekend course? What did you learn? Did you learn the proper body mechanics of a clean and press? Did you learn about the central nervous system's role in strength training? Or did you learn that "bench press is a good pec exercise, and abs should be trained with high reps, every day?"

Now the rant is over. :D

IronFist

[Kempo Guy]

IronFist,
My sentiments exactly. The problem is that people don't want to hear the truth... nor are they disciplined to follow through for any length of time.

What you describe sounds just like what I go through at my office... People come to me for workout advice (and diet to some extent as they go hand in hand) but then always end up doing all kinds of other stuff that gets them nowhere fast. Frustrating as h*ll!! I usually suggest that it's not a diet nor a specific exercise that's going to lose weight, but a complete lifestyle change!

What they end up doing generally is going with the latest diet fad (such as Atkins) with no exercise at all for a period of ONE (or maybe two) month/s and say: "WOW I lost 10lbs of fat with this diet". When I really want to just tell them it's water weight and muscle. :rolleyes:

These days everybody I know is on a 'diet' (since the new year), but one by one they're all falling back to their old habits...

Sorry for the rant.
KG

[Serpent]

Face it. People are fukked. Why would you want a career helping anyone? Go find a mountain and farm sheep for a living.










































































I'm serious.

[cutter]

shiatsu or other kinds of bodywork/massage can be very lucrative.

[stubbs]

wow!!! cheers for all the replies guys!!!

i think im gonna start off by getting a job at a leisure centre. I've also found somewhere that does a 12 week personal trainer course (making for sure it make's me eligable for insurance because i think i've seen a couple that don't!). Also once i've completed the course they'll stick me on their referral system so there's a chance i could get a few clients every now and then through them.

i don't think i can persue nutrition or the like at university because i would have had to have studied chemistry and biology, but i am really really enjoying my psychology course so i might do a part time degree in that while working.

ironfist, you've pointed out all my worries of the job. i think the main problem i find is that people don't want to push themselves, they lack determination and dicipline, whereas i often like to push myself as hard as i can (but not so i injure myself!). if i could get paid to train all day or be a training partner to someone who's already in shape then that would be the best job in the world (but i know no ones gonna just pay me to train, are they?)

when you get certified, for insurance purposes am i only allowed to teach my clients things that have been approved by some organisation? or can i take the PT certificate just so im certified and give my clients any regime that i think will work even though i haven't been tought how to instruct it?

i know a place local to me where i can learn shiatsu so i think i'll follow that up more.

if all else fails, im gonna find a mountain and farm sheep for a living just as serpent suggests.

cheers for all the advice,
stubbs
________
Baby mac (http://babimac.com/)

[stubbs]

ok i looked more into that fitness diploma and it costs ?3860!!!!! so im gonna find a different one, there plenty out there and i only really want the certificate so im qualified, im not too bothered about the content because im gonna be learning that sort of stuff and more anyway out of interest.
________
ATHEISM ADVICE (http://www.religionboard.org/atheism/)

[stubbs]

i think i've found one that looks ok:

http://www.focus-training.com/
________
Buy Vaporizer (http://vaporizers.net/vaporizers)

[stubbs]

lol. i was looking more into complementary therapies and i got directed to this site. for some reason it really made me laugh:

http://www.stress.org.uk/

lol :D
________
****ING PUBLIC (http://www.****tube.com/categories/833/public/videos/1)

[Ford Prefect]

Hi Stubbs,

I'm actually about to start a little online business myself. First, I decided to gain some weight since most people don't want fitness advice from a lean guy. I figured I had to look the part and get a little more "jacked". ;) I tracked my progress to give inspiration to other hard-gainers out there. I've devised diet/training programs for hard-gainers, strength, fitness, weight loss, etc. I have friends and coworkers lined up to try them. One of my coworkers has lost 10 lbs in the past 2 weeks on my program! Anyway, after I get them all squared aware, I'll have before and after pictures, testimonials, and all that jazz.

I'll then put them online and sell them for a yet undecided price. The price will include the program and consultation with me via e-mail on the program for 1 year. I'll also tailor programs to individuals needs for a price after they complete the original. I'm sure it will take a while to grow, but I bet after a few years, it can become a decent second source of income. Not only that, but I get a kick out of helping people. I love showing people what they are capable of.

[ElPietro]

Ford I only read your post in this thread as it was the first that popped up. I would just warn you to be very careful, if you are going to sell, or give out diet advice. First of all, I'm pretty sure you will be breaking the law unless you are a registered dietician, and that if you don't have a license you will be eligible for countless lawsuits, and maybe even criminal charges depending on what happens. Training info is pretty safe, you could even get a cert. pretty easily if you don't have one yet. But I know giving out diet information in any official capacity, where you are a vendor and you have a client, you are setting yourself up for a whole world of pain. So just look into all the legalities or don't bother with it at all.

[IronFist]

Case 7: Some Gyms Are Bull****: Some gyms make their trainers give clients their preset program. It's complete bull****. No customization to the individual client's needs. No analysis needed. A client comes in, he gets the preset program taught by some trainer that acts like a robot, spitting out the same (mis)information to each client. How stupid is that? Um, did the notion that every client might not need the same regimen ever occur to these people? And why do I think that these cookie cutter, one size fits all programs probably involve a lot of machines?

Client A: Hi, I'd like to lose weight.
Robot Trainer: I will show you our program. It is the best.
Client B: Hi, I'd like to get buff.
Robot Trainer: I will show you our program. It is the best.

Is this stupid to anyone else?

IronFist

[TaoBoy]

IronFist, didn't you post those cases some time back?



FYI - I am just starting a Certificate IV in Fitness (minimum industry requirement for PTs in Australia) and all is going rather well. I don't expect to learn everything I need to know as I assume a lot will come from on-the-job experience. I intend to couple this knowledge with my other area of study TCM (massage) and even my martial arts knowledge. Let's see if I can make a modest living doing what I love....

[dezhen2001]

cood luck with it mate :)

dawood

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
cood luck with it mate :)

dawood

*Adam assumes this was for him*

Why thank you kind sir.

:)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by TaoBoy
FYI - I am just starting a Certificate IV in Fitness (minimum industry requirement for PTs in Australia) and all is going rather well.

Can you tell us more about that? Links?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by TaoBoy
IronFist, didn't you post those cases some time back?


Nope, I just thought of them right now :)

IronFist

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by IronFist


Nope, I just thought of them right now :)

IronFist

Hmmm, they are strangely familiar. :confused:

And unfortunately very accurate. :rolleyes:

[IronFist]

I'm sure I've whined about these things before. Maybe that's why they sound familar?

:confused:

IronFist

[Robinf]

First of all, IronFist you can't be more right! I worked for 6 months as a personal trainer and I tanked--not to mention it was boring and sucked. I love fitness and helping people improve and feel better, but people who sign up with personal trainers don't have those goals. They just get scared at looking at money in their bank account and need to spend it on something to get it out of their way. Or they need a psychiatrist and personal trainers, on average, are less expensive than psychs. That's what I kept getting. People who just wanted someone to unload on.

Second, this just popped in my head. Look for a boys and girls club, YMCA, or something like that and look into becoming a program director. Kids, and their parents, are a bit more appreciative of having something to do.

Just a thought.

[Brian_CA]

It has been awhile since I posted, but I wanted to put my 2 cents in here.

I am a full time fitness professional of the last 4 years who makes a good living doing what I do.

Your success in this business depends on some of the following. (There are many but these will be some just for you to consider).

1. Education. Even though many of PT certs are bull****, the more of them you have the more doors of places that pay good money open to you. I have many friends who do PT and have a bunch of stupid certs. They make about $100 an hour and do 7-9 clients a day. Do the math, stupid or not having them allows them to make close to $1000 a day. Knowledge is power.

2. Passion. You MUST LIKE what you do! If you don't you just come across, as someone who hates their job and you will never get any clients and keep them. No one likes to train with negative people.

3. Effectiveness. When people workout people they must feel and see the benefits. In the beginning usually it means soreness. After time the may mean the see the difference in their bodies.

4. Communication. If you can't talk to people in ways they understand you will lose them quickly. If you lose a client as they say in this business, it is not the client’s fault, it's yours.

5. Time. This business takes a lot of time. You must pay your dues. It my take 1 year, it my take 2-3. If you put in the time, your efforts will be rewarded.

6. Be humble and approachable. This is a HUGE one. I see lot of turn over in PT. Those that don't last are quite frankly just fitness snobs. It's like "I have all this knowledge and none of you are worthy of it." The types don't last in the fitness industry and never make any money.

These are just a faction of things that will propel to towards your goals in the business.

There is a negative side to the business. The hours can be early and late. People do suck sometimes. Your income my fluctuate month to month. But so what. If you can make it would not it be worth all the BS to have a job that rocks?

If I where you I would consider getting into Group exercise. The pay tends to be higher and more consistent then PT with less time commitment.

Guidelines for breaking into the business.

1. GO TO THE GYM! If want to work there get your face in there. Get to know everyone that works there. Ask them questions.

2. Stay away from educational institutions. Students don't have any money or time to really make your efforts worthwhile.

3. Get those stupid certs. When you go to see your Doctor do ask if he went to Harvard or City College? No, they have enough credentials to have you sitting in front of them and that what really matters. The more you have, the better quality club you will be able to get in, which means better $$$.

4. Be an example. Stay in shape, no one goes to out of shape fitness people.

FYI: 24 hour no longer will certify you for free. As a club the suck. Also pay is low but they have many clubs. If you are group ex it might be worth it but not really.

Try to go to Bally's owned club and try to get on in there. Or perhaps a Gold's or World Gym.

[Robinf]

Another key to success is Location Location Location

I worked for a Boston Sports Club--hot chain where I am. But, I live and, therefor worked, out in the boonies. To make $$$ work in the city or a place with a lot of traffic.

[StarBoy]

*LMAO* at IronFist's cases. That's was choice...I've seen it so many times before, along with this one:

Case 8: But the guy at Bally's told me something different.

(for those not familiar with Bally's, their trainers tend to not know
what they are doing)

On a related note, anyone know how to make a career out of Wushu? I teach (sociology in university now, high school history in a couple years), which means I work around 6 hours a day for a full time salary, but I'd rather be training. I'm kinda just playing around with the idea, but if I can make something of it, who knows? I'm nowhere's near good enough to be an instructor, I don't want to go into equipment sales. Is that all there is?

[stubbs]

hi all,

thanks for all the advice!!!! this is all really appreciated!!! my careers advisor was nothing compared to you guys!! lol

ok im gonna go to the local leisure centre and see if they got any jobs, hopefully i can meet the sort of people i might be having as clients, meet other people in the industry, learn how to use all the weird and wonderful machines (i haven't been to a gym in ages, all my training has been cardio such as running and kung fu and weight training with free weights, i've never needed anything else), i can also earn a little bit of money to pay for my courses :)

while working there (hopefully) i'll get as many crappy certificates as possible, i've even found one day instructor courses in thai-bo and boxercise type stuff which i think could sell well.

also, can anyone recommend any good physiology and exercise science books. i don't want books on training regimes i just want a few reference books that tell me what actually happens when we exercise so i can talk funny to clients and know my stuff properly when i get asked questions from people that know their stuff, i also want some to read out of interest.

thanks again for all the advice, you guys are great!!!!!
stubbs
________
Shower xxx (http://www.****tube.com/categories/37/shower/videos/1)

[IronFist]

Originally posted by StarBoy
*LMAO* at IronFist's cases. That's was choice...I've seen it so many times before, along with this one:

Case 8: But the guy at Bally's told me something different.

(for those not familiar with Bally's, their trainers tend to not know
what they are doing)


Dude, it's totally true. This guy I know was running laps with seran wrap wrapped around his torso. I was like "what are you doing?" and he goes "it helps me lose fat on my stomach, a guy who works at Bally's told me to do it."

I explained to him whey that's not the case, but I dont' think he believed me.

IronFist

[Brian_CA]

yes, there are idiots in every industry. But what if you where the best trainer in those type of gyms? You would build yourself and then move to another place that is higher quality. The key is getting your foot in the door and building a fitness carreer.

It is the difference between talking about being in fitness and actually doing it for a living. It is not easy and true only the qualifed and strong survive, but if you hang in there and keep trying and never give up you will succeed.

Brian
San Francisco

[Ford Prefect]

EP,

Thanks for the concern. I have a friend that currently does it. All you need to do is put a disclaimer on it.

[StarBoy]

Dude, it's totally true. This guy I know was running laps with seran wrap wrapped around his torso. I was like "what are you doing?" and he goes "it helps me lose fat on my stomach, a guy who works at Bally's told me to do it."

believe it or not, there are trainers there that still suggest people do the lat pulldowns behind the head. That has got to be the most basic no-no in weight training.

I can understand getting your foot in the door and all, but putting down Bally's on your resumé might actually hurt your career.

[rubthebuddha]

if you do wind up working at a joke shack like bally's, i'd suggest sticking there a short time. 3 months at bally's would imply to most seasoned managers that it was intentionally temporary, especially if you have a good work record elsewhere. just tell them you were using bally's as a stepping stone, but you don't agree with their philosophy and many exercise guidelines and wanted to move onto something more focused and up to date.

[IronFist]

believe it or not, there are trainers there that still suggest people do the lat pulldowns behind the head. That has got to be the most basic no-no in weight training.


Lat pulldowns or pullups behind the head aren't bad for everyone. Some people's shoudler gridle seems to be able to handle it. I've done it that way for years with no problems (knock on wood). That's not to say it's not doing some slow, long term damage, but I don't think so.

Then again, I do it behind the head the right way. It's not a contest to see how far behind your head you can pull the bar. Some girls do it this way, the pull the bar down past their shoulder blades. It looks pretty painful.

When I do pullups, I tilt my head down and pull until the bar touches the back of my neck. That's the right way to do it, as far as I know. It's not really behind the head, it's more like tilting the head down and pulling down to where the head would be if you didn't move it. It's just that the bar physically is "behind the head" so I guess that's why they call it that.

IronFist

[StarBoy]

Then again, I do it behind the head the right way.

As far as I know, there is no right way. I can kind of see where you're coming from though. If your tilting your head forward, and as long as the bar is not brought down on or behind the shoulders, then I think it would be allright, but I can't really see how that is possible if the bar goes behind your head (even if you do dip your head down).

From what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), doing it that way is supposed to work some of the muscles in the upper back (I don't remember the name of the muscle groups, sorry). In that case, one is better off just doing the delt row.

My cousin plays football and his coach (who is a moron in general) would have him do lat pulldowns that way. He had some minor shoulder injuries from getting tackled and such and those lat pulldowns aggravated them to the extent where he had to have a major surgery on his rotator cuff.

If you can find another way to exercise whatever those pulldowns are supposed to be working, it might be a good idea. A rotator cuff surgery is even worse when you're 40+ due to slowing effect age has on recovery.

That's just my 2 cents.

[TaoBoy]

Hey Brian_CA,

Thanks for the advice.

I'll remember it!

Adam.

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by Serpent


Can you tell us more about that? Links?

www.issa.com.au

(The site is pretty average - and don't be put off by Mr. Gladiator).

Try www.issaonline.com it's the 'parent' site.

It's a pretty good course. But as with all these courses you really need to read more stuff and do more stuff. This is a good starting point and it gives you the piece of paper you need.

It is internationally accredited too and I haven't found any others in Australia that are.

www.fitnation.com.au is another but I was told to avoid it by ex-students.

[Robinf]

also, can anyone recommend any good physiology and exercise science books. i don't want books on training regimes i just want a few reference books that tell me what actually happens when we exercise so i can talk funny to clients and know my stuff properly when i get asked questions from people that know their stuff, i also want some to read out of interest.

Stubbs,

Believe it or not, I found Schwarzenagger's New Modern Encyclopedia of Body Building a pretty good read.

These three are great:

Getting Stronger

Kinesiology of Exercise: A Safe and Effective Way to Improve Athletic Performance by Michael Yessis

Strength Training Anatomy by Frederic Delavier

[Watchman]

Hi all,

I wanted to bring this thread to the top in order to thank Brian for his comments. I took your tips and put them into action, and as a result I hit the ground running making a good starting income at one of the local gyms here.


But what if you where the best trainer in those type of gyms? You would build yourself and then move to another place that is higher quality. The key is getting your foot in the door and building a fitness carreer.


That piece of advice above was the best! I got hired at the local Gold's Gym, but also took the initiative to meet with the fitness manager at my area's highest end spa facility. As a result of the conversation, she pretty much guaranteed me a position after I had logged a requisite number of post-certification training hours.

Thank you for taking the time to make your comments.

[Mr. Bao]

Stubbs:

Forget about Personal Training and becoming a trainer because it is a waste of time and besides that personal trainers are dumb and most are retards. Keep studying at college and become a professional. Many people here are right about personal trainers that it is a hard path, and etc etc.

Cheers.

[Watchman]

LOL @ Mr. Bao.

You sir, are a bitter man. The personal trainers at two of the vacation spas here in my home town make anywhere from $100 - $200 an hour to start.

That doesn't sound too retarded to me. It's only a hard path if you don't have any sales or communication skills.

[Brian_CA]

GOOD GOING Watchman. Good luck! The next year or so will be the hardest. Build yourself, watch and learn, pay your dues and before you know it you will be actually doing it!

Check back in a couple of months and let us know how it goes.

Brian
San Francisco, CA

PS: one last bit of info. Get used to working early in the morning (sometimes 6-8 AM) and in the late afternoon and early evenings(4:40-8:00 PM) That's when the most people work out. Best time to build yourself up.

[Watchman]

Brian:

Thanks again. Your comments before about the training scedule and paying your dues allowed me to psychologically prepare myself beforehand and gave me the head-start.

I've gone around to the other trainers in the gym and asked them if I can sit-in on some of their sessions with their clients so I can get a feel for different styles and see how different personalities respond.

I'll be sure and check in and let you know how things are going.

[Mr. Bao]

Watchman:

I think I know more about personal training than you do? LoL. I have been doing it for three years now in nyc and it is a tougher market now than ever. But I aint worried like the newbies at my club. Best of luck, I was just joking before. Many people look down at personal trainers and I just wanted to add on to the fire. LoL. www.ptonthenet.com is a good site for serious personal trainers, check me out on there under nyc trainers.


Cheers.

[Watchman]

Mr. Bao,

No problem man. Thanks for the explanation.

I imagine NYC would be a very competitive, tough market. My area is the reverse - I've been told that most folks who start out here and become good trainers pull up shop and move somewhere else once they've got a couple of years under their belt. So, the problem isn't too many fish in a little pond, but companies not being able to keep quality trainers.

I figure if I can gut it out, I can rise to the top relatively quickly and build a really solid base of clientelle - especially since I'm pretty much here for life.

Thanks for the link.

Would you mind sharing why many people look down on personal trainers? What causes the negative perceptions?