Side kick vs. Front kick

[fa_jing]

I am curious to your opinion regarding when to use a side kick rather than a thrusting front kick in application? Seems that these are two kicks that can accomplish the same purpose most of the time. I understand if your opponent runs to you outside gate you may throw a sidekick instead of turning and facing. Also, I understand that as a check/stop kick to the leg, turning your foot parallel to the ground (or outward for that matter) gives more surface area for catching their leg. Are there any situations in which you throw a sidekick to an opponent directly in front of you, and your target is waist height or higher?

[45degree fist]

you can use a side cutting kick when you missed with the front kick it is a lot faster to use than setting up another front kick. it can also be the second part of a kick combo from one leg to the next.

[apoweyn]

hmm... i don't throw many sidekicks these days. but when i do, it's generally at the end of a combination. the hip turnover in my sidekick is pretty pronounced. so a followup with the hands doesn't flow as easily as it would after a front kick.

so why throw a sidekick at all? i think it's slightly more powerful than my front kick, though i don't think there's much in it. still, it does lend itself to a couple of modifiers that the front kick doesn't. the power between a front kick and a sidekick is pretty minimal. the difference between a skipping front kick and a skipping sidekick is, in my opinion, more profound. so the availability of things like that point to a sidekick occassionally.

the other thing, i suppose, is that i worry less about damaging myself doing a sidekick. that's not really a rational thing. i'm sure the potential for injury is pretty even keeled. but i happen to have injured myself worse doing a front kick than ever i have doing a sidekick. my toes pointing up in the air like that, when i'm fighting people who keep there elbows in nice and tight, makes me very nervous. (not that catching an elbow on the side of your ankle is a picnic either, but i did say it wasn't really a rational thing.)


stuart b.

[fa_jing]

Ap - for the thrusting front kick, the opponents' elbows are no more of a concern than for a thrusting side kick. Additionally, we are taught to turn the foot outwards when kicking w/front kick an opponents' midsection, in order to avoid the elbow. The foot position is the same as your twisting kick, but it too is performed with a thrust and the contact point is the heel or the whole foot. Although I didn't find myself actually turning out my foot too often, but theoretically it's there.

I think the main usage I have for the sidekick is just for variety, hey two techniques are better than one. Sometimes your opponent can handle one type of kick better than another. But I find the kicks as I said mostly interchangeable.

I agree that a skip-in side kick can be more powerful and especially extend a little more than the skip-in front kick, but that will only work regularly against a lower level of opposition. I usually can't hit people from a distance like that cleanly. All they have to do is move a little and you will need to flow into a combonation, which is easier off of the front-kick version.

I just thought of another usage of the Side kick - since your base foot will generally be pointed ****her back, you can run away more easily. That's good if your primary goal is just to keep the guy off of you.

[apoweyn]

Ap - for the thrusting front kick, the opponents' elbows are no more of a concern than for a thrusting side kick. Additionally, we are taught to turn the foot outwards when kicking w/front kick an opponents' midsection, in order to avoid the elbow. The foot position is the same as your twisting kick, but it too is performed with a thrust and the contact point is the heel or the whole foot. Although I didn't find myself actually turning out my foot too often, but theoretically it's there.

agreed. i did say that it wasn't a very rational reason. but based on a past injury. and, in point of fact, i was injured because i performed the kick in a swinging rather than thrusting motion. i got injured because i was being lazy. not because of any flaw inherent in front kicks.


I agree that a skip-in side kick can be more powerful and especially extend a little more than the skip-in front kick, but that will only work regularly against a lower level of opposition. I usually can't hit people from a distance like that cleanly. All they have to do is move a little and you will need to flow into a combonation, which is easier off of the front-kick version.

well, i disagree that it'll only work on low-level people. you're right. i can't usually hit people with it from a distance either. they can see it from a mile off. but, as i said, i tend to put it at the end of combinations. if it's someone that doesn't like being in close, then a flurry of punches is enough to get them retreating. timed properly, with some punches to distract them, you can sometimes get the person to retreat straight into range of the skipping sidekick. i couldn't throw that kick fast enough to initiate a combination. they'd just step back and i'm done. or sidestep and maul me.


stuart b.

[rogue]

I'm trying to get this one down myself. We have some guys who are very good at using the side kick to counter high attacks. I throw a roundhouse or front kick at their torso, they lean back and under and come in with the side kick. If you see it and step back they hop forward and may get me anyway. One guy used that against me while I was flicking jabs at him to keep him moving back trying to set him up. **** near knocked me across the dojang.

[fiercest tiger]

Use a side kick to counter a front kick as in jamming the leg as he moves forwards. low side kick that is!!

[No_Know]

I think fa_jing mentioned turning the foot out. This can help when the elbow was there in the first place.

The shin is exposed during front kicks even with foot turned, toes out. However, there is substantially more muscle on the up side of a side kick. At least on my legs.

Damage to muscle versus damage to bone.

fa_jing, toe out might help when the elbow is in place. But might not be as much help if the elbow comes into place During kick.

[yenhoi]

I only realy use sidekicks by accident, or as low stopkicks, stuff like that. Sometimes it just pops out after another kick or at the end of some random combo or whatnot.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Sidekicks - more powerful than a lead leg front kick (quicker too), less telegraphed than a rear leg front kick (less power).

Sidekicks are very useful as when done right are hard to capture grab after landing. where as front kicks are quite easily caught and you may be punished.. ( ask apoweyn about what its like to have a kick caught and then followed through with a throw)

I use my sidekick like i would use both front kicks. both as a "checking" kick to find range and maintain a distance if they try to close and as a offensive weapon of power.


sidekicks higher than waist? - Look at san shou fighter Marvin Perry for mastery at this ablility.

[Neurotic]

One of the interesting things about a sidekick is that it has a wider range than a front kick.

If you simply chamber, you can fire a sidekick from any angle from between directly in front, to almost directly behind.

You have a much smaller angle of attack with a front kick, what I find to be in front of you, to a right angle of that.

(If anyone can do more than that, I say you are more flexible than me!!!! :D )

This means it is easier to follow someone with a sidekick - or multiple sidekicks (chamber, fire, chamber, fire) at different angles, as opposed to a front kick (maybe you have a good ability to hop? not me!)

So you can dodgey stuff with a side kick - than you can with a front - i.e. chamber, wait a half beat for your opponent to move, and fire just as he plants his foot, and is stuck.

That also being said - I can throw a side kick from punching range very easily, as opposed to a front kick (unless an obvious target like a groin is given) which can be very hard to counter, given the right circumstances.

On the other side of the coin - a side kick is slower in terms of chamber fire, adjust and plant - a front kick you can chamber, fire and plant without a large adjustment (no rolling over onto the side) so its a trade off.

That and I would think I can get more power out of my side kick than I can out of my front. For sure :D

Just my 2c :cool:

Neurotic

[apoweyn]

ask apoweyn about what its like to have a kick caught and then followed through with a throw

don't bother. any memory of the experience was wiped out, along with half my childhood, after hitting the mat a few times on friday. :)

[ShaolinTiger00]

and we were on a mat. and respectful of each other..

makes you see kicks in a whole new light. (How/when/which ways you use them/ What to do when being kicked/ the aftermath)

[apoweyn]

more than just that. it makes you see any shift in your balance and weight in a whole new light. things i took for granted before. if my hips were even a fraction of an inch further forward than my upper body (as would be the case in many kicks), i knew i was screwed. the world would turn upside down, the mat would get steadily bigger, and then [thump]

here's a sidekick question then, bill. is there any concern in something like sanshou that the sidekick might give your opponent your back more readily? as easily as you tossed me about from the front, i'm thinking that if you got to my back, it would have been worse still.


stuart b.

[ShaolinTiger00]

is there any concern in something like sanshou that the sidekick might give your opponent your back more readily?

Sure is. and the throws are wicked.

Speed in delivery, and return. Following up the kick with combinations. Hand feints will also help hide the kick

Sidekicks are hard to read (telegraph) and you've got to be pretty clever and fast to intercept them before the kicker is already close enough to punch and clinch or out of reach.

[apoweyn]

it'll be interesting to see, then, what changes i'll end up making to my sidekick to account for that. i tend to roll my hip over a lot, making my back more accessible and followups harder. maybe that'll change quick when i get a load of this throwing.

[Suntzu]

that is my issue with sidekicks… I don’t have a TKD sidekick so if I blow it and they step behind… I'm screwed… mine is almost a back kick as opposed to a true side kick… also at issue is balance… I get thrown back from my side kick… cant figure why… but it happens... i watched Jason Yee practice his... that dude stays rooted like a redwood... oh... and turning the hip over on the front leg side kick... without 'skipping' it aint happening... and by than i gave it away... not to toot my own horn but my front kick... when i sneak it in... it's better than yoohoo...

yeah… I'm gonna take the next few weeks and work on that…

[apoweyn]

my sidekick tends to be the same way, suntzu.

there was actually a really good discussion of the sidekick on the underground's kickboxing forum a while back. i don't know how easy it would be to find at this point, but it may be worth searching for, fa jing.


stuart b.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Sun Tzu - I don't know if this is what is going on with your sidekick but often times when I see someone with a sidekick/balance problem there are usually a few things wrong.

1. they are up high on the balls of their feet/toes instead of flat (yet poised)

2. they are standing very "tall" on the support leg instead of keeping the knee bent.

3. - sometimes they try to reach out too far with the foot and become off balanced.

just some ideas.

[Suntzu]

I was just about to post… I do get up on the balls of my foot… that’s how I turned over on my toe… I'm thinkin it has to do with my flexibility… or lack there of… I think that is my last big weakness… I'm str8 legged too… looking at the clips from Kung Fu X... i think i will work on it a lil more... man those guys pull theyre knee in and fire that thing from up close... its more of a long range strike for me...

[Lao_Peng_You]

I improved my sidekick in 2 ways:
1) from a low bow stance, pull up to a cross crane (keep the support leg bent and foot flat) with the rear leg, flip your leg over so your heel is up near your rear (support heel will rotate 45 deg. towards opponent), push your foot out using mainly your glutes and hammy. The striking foot should be rotated with toes down. The path of the leg should be straight both out and in, as if it were in a cylinder.
2) I made a committment to this kick because I was not very good at it.

if you are rotated too far you are really doing a half back kick, and this is an easier kick to do, so it is easier to want to do it. Also, if you kick to high, you may sacrifice accuracy.

This helped me, hope it helps you.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by apoweyn


well, i disagree that it'll only work on low-level people. you're right. i can't usually hit people with it from a distance either. they can see it from a mile off. but, as i said, i tend to put it at the end of combinations. if it's someone that doesn't like being in close, then a flurry of punches is enough to get them retreating. timed properly, with some punches to distract them, you can sometimes get the person to retreat straight into range of the skipping sidekick. i couldn't throw that kick fast enough to initiate a combination. they'd just step back and i'm done. or sidestep and maul me.


stuart b.

Good one. The followup skip-in side kick is good here, also followup step-up front kick. The reason is that since they are moving back, it's harder to step to the side to get off of the line of attack. Plus they are probably still thinking about your punches.

[apoweyn]

that's the hope, yeah. :)

generally, i'm not fast enough these days to decisively clobber someone with a kick right off the bat. gotta give them plenty of other things to think about first.


stuart b.

[fa_jing]

Hey guys I asked the same question on Emptyflower - Mr. John Wang had a great response : "If you don't want to go down to the ground, don't throw any 'committed' kick. Kicks should be used only to move in, not to hurt your opponent" and I find that to be really true. It is difficult to try to pick off somebody at a distance with a long range kick, without engaging them first. I find that throwing an uncommitted step-up front kick is one of my favorite ways to enter, kind of like throwing a jab to provoke a response and set something else up, not as a knockout punch. Whereas if you commit to some kind of devestating front kick as your entry move, you are likely to get it caught or telegraph the kick.

Kicks from the inside, once the hands are engaged, are a whole other story. In this case I think they would be committed 100%

[yenhoi]

Thats one of my fav's too. Sometimes 2 kicks, a front, then a oblique, so I can followup with some outside punches, take the back, etc. Its great when someone takes your bait!

:eek:

[ShaolinTiger00]

Mr. John Wang had a great response : "If you don't want to go down to the ground, don't throw any 'committed' kick. Kicks should be used only to move in, not to hurt your opponent"

Mr Wang is hopelessly incorrect. (btw: who is he?)

Kicks can be devestating and awesome in power and ability to damage. Don't think so? Try a low roundhouse/ rear leg front kick to the kneecap/ groin lower abdomen

Non committed kicks will get you thrashed every time! Even your "probing" teep kick has to be done with power and intention.


There are much safer ways to move in to an opponent than kicking!

[ZIM]

I usually like to throw my sidekick, "Cubby the Walrus Boy", in front of any front kicks coming at me. But he still winds up getting kidnapped like an id1ot. :D

Seriously, tho. My front kicks are a good deal faster than my side ones, gotta say, and gotta work on that...

Re: committed- I'm kind of taking this to mean "over committed", in which case, I'd agree. Non-committed tho, is incorrect...at least as a term. Depends, maybe, if you're doing a fake in order to set up a sweep, maybe??

[ShaolinTiger00]

zim - I believe in the context that he used it, that is exactly what he meant. Which is why it is so ridiculous!

Over committing. bad indeed. but that's a given.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Mr. John Wang had a great response : "If you don't want to go down to the ground, don't throw any 'committed' kick. Kicks should be used only to move in, not to hurt your opponent"

Mr Wang is hopelessly incorrect. (btw: who is he?)
One of Chang tung-Sheng's top direct students, also one of the top Longfist guys in the country.


Kicks can be devestating and awesome in power and ability to damage. Don't think so? Try a low roundhouse/ rear leg front kick to the kneecap/ groin lower abdomen.

why would I, if...

There are much safer ways to move in to an opponent than kicking!

There are other ways, yes.

Non committed kicks will get you thrashed every time! Even your "probing" teep kick has to be done with power and intention.

I think non-commited means you're not betting the bank on the kick landing and taking the guy out in one fell swoop. As I alluded to above, just like using your jab to move in. If he walks into your jab, this should hurt him. Same thing if he ignores or walks into your kick.



not mad, enjoying the discussion

[ZIM]

OK, I'm kind of seeing what is meant by "committed" in this context- 'don't bet the bank on it connecting'. OK, this makes sense. I just happen to regard that as 'over-committing' tho.

One gripe I'd heard re: kung fu is that it seems to have a lack of fakes, and thus strategic thinking. We seem he11bent on 'efficiency', no wasted motions, so we tend to lose/never gain that capacity.

Not saying I agree. :D But it is an interesting POV/gripe, IMHO, esp. when compared to western boxing.

More to the point tho- KF is not a sport....so why fake? ;)

Re: John Wang's comment 'kicks should be used to move in, not to hurt'- move in sounds like 'every step a kick, every kick a step'. Not to hurt doesn't sit well with the no wasted effort POV, tho. :)

[apoweyn]

well, it's hardly 'wasted' effort if it gets you inside to do your thing. i'm not saying that i fully subscribe to his view. i like kicking to damage. but to call a spade a spade, he's not advocating pointless moves. the move has a point. create an opening, close distance, and do what you do best. if it were just a matter of wandering up to a person and punching them in the throat, we'd all be doing it. and what a world that would be.

:)

[fa_jing]

I think you have to look at his battle plan, too. He wants to get inside and finish the fight with a throw. That's what he's been training to do for all of these decades. So anything that gets him in there safely and puts the opponent in reactive mode, is going to help. Whereas someone like me, my aim is to get inside too, but in order to finish the fight with punches and knees. That's my strong point and what I've trained to do. So throwing a thai-kick to the leg or a front kick to the groin, after the punching has begun, does indeed fit into my battle plan as I am trying to finish with strikes, and it will help my punches be more effective.

[rogue]

'kicks should be used to move in, not to hurt'

What the heck does that mean? I've been hurt plenty of times by side kicks allowing my opponent to move in and keep hitting me.

[apoweyn]

well, that's the thing, rogue. i don't agree with the necessity of this guy's premise. only the validity.

in other words, he's not describing the only way to do it. (if he intends to, then i disagree with him.) but it is a valid way.

one that's also been used to great effect by royce gracie. that guy's kicks were abysmal. but so what. they did precisely what he needed them to do. maurice smith's kicks also did precisely what he needed them to. namely, knock out some big emmer effers.


stuart b.

[rogue]

LOL @ Royces kicks, but point well taken.

Is it just me but I find it easier to not loose ground against round house kicks, high, low or anywhere else. I can block it with my leg, catch it, jam it all while moving in. But against a side kick that's going to connect usually I have to move either back or to the side. Catching them sux because if they have good power they'll still drive through you.

[fa_jing]

It's my fault for lifting the quote out of context. I do think he was describing CMA strategy in general, as he sees it. But the part you all may not get is that he is talking about kicking from kicking range, pre-engagement phase, not when your inside. Obviously from the inside you're not going to throw any uncommitted kicks, and any kicks you do throw are going to be designed to land and inflict maximum damage. These kicks from the inside aren't a big part of the Shuai-Chiao battle plan, except for some stomp-type kicks, but do figure prominently in most other CMA.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by rogue
LOL @ Royces kicks, but point well taken.

Is it just me but I find it easier to not loose ground against round house kicks, high, low or anywhere else. I can block it with my leg, catch it, jam it all while moving in. But against a side kick that's going to connect usually I have to move either back or to the side. Catching them sux because if they have good power they'll still drive through you.

oh, it's not just you brutha. sidekicks occupy the same line i'd otherwise be trying to move up. same with front kicks. roundkicks don't. so i can move straight up the middle and block it. and the more aggressive i am about going up the middle, the less force i'm going to absorb from that roundkick. in contrast, the more aggressive i am about going up the middle when there's a sidekick ready to go, the more likely i am to pass a rib later that night.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by fa_jing
It's my fault for lifting the quote out of context. I do think he was describing CMA strategy in general, as he sees it. But the part you all may not get is that he is talking about kicking from kicking range, pre-engagement phase, not when your inside. Obviously from the inside you're not going to throw any uncommitted kicks, and any kicks you do throw are going to be designed to land and inflict maximum damage. These kicks from the inside aren't a big part of the Shuai-Chiao battle plan, except for some stomp-type kicks, but do figure prominently in most other CMA.

nobody's fault. that's how i took it. in the context of what he does (and to a degree, what i do as well), it makes perfect sense to me.


stuart b.

[rogue]

That's what I find too ap, I wonder why the NHB guys are so hooked on the thai round house. I'm thinking it's easier to learn.

I'm going over to Marvin Perry's side watch his side kick and then cry like Red5Angel about his sensitive shins.:D

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by rogue
That's what I find too ap, I wonder why the NHB guys are so hooked on the thai round house. I'm thinking it's easier to learn.


hmm, if i had to guess, i'd say it had something to do with the fact that when you perform a sidekick, you tend to give more of your back to the opponent. whereas when you throw a roundkick, particularly the way that thai boxers tend to throw them, it's easier to get back to a front-facing position to fend off the inevitable shoot. in my limited experience anyway.

that said, one of the first NHB comps i ever saw had a russian fighter launching his opponent into the fence with a skipping sidekick. igor zinoviev, perhaps. anyway, he launched the guy. the fight didn't end there. but i think the tide of it certainly changed.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

i've seen that footage of perry. you're right. that sidekick is not something to be ignored.

and red5 can cry all he wants. i'm absolutely not kissing it to make it better. no sir.


stuart b.

[rogue]

That makes sense, but what about the san shou guys? Don't they prefer the side kick?

I've just wondered why so many "internet NHB fighters" disparage the side kick.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by rogue
That makes sense, but what about the san shou guys? Don't they prefer the side kick?

I've just wondered why so many "internet NHB fighters" disparage the side kick.


well, huh. you've got me, mate. that's a very good point. the same technical considerations would apply.

as i mentioned earlier, there was a thread on the underground a while back about the application of the sidekick. and i remember that sifu david ross (lmdc... ) talked a lot about the sidekick's application in sanshou.

of course, i can't remember any of the salient points now, because my brain is small and mostly ceremonial in nature.


stuart b.

[Suntzu]

I'm working on it… I've seen it put a few folks to sleep… when its done right… WOW… but right now I do it wrong…in my TKD days… I had a killer side kick… but that was than… whaaat a waste…

I've just wondered why so many "internet NHB fighters" disparage the side kick. its not in the form:D

[ShaolinTiger00]

Rouge - That makes sense, but what about the san shou guys? Don't they prefer the side kick?

I've just wondered why so many "internet NHB fighters" disparage the side kick.

#1.

Please see page 1 of this thread for some san shou insight.

question #2 - NHB guys look to muay thai as the premiere striking art. muay thai rarely if ever uses the sidekick. but due to recent muay thai/sanda matches many thai fighters are rethinking it and using it more often.

[fa_jing]

I think they disparage the kick because it is much harder to execute correctly - in fact impossible if you don't do some serious training of the outer lifting muscles a la TKD wall kicks. Whereas a low round kick or front kick can be executed with the regular weight-lifting muscles, coupled with flexibility. But with the Side kick, flexibility in itself is not enough.

NHB guys seems to want techniques that can be executed with athleticism only, rather than specialized training

just a wild guess

[ShaolinTiger00]

I think they disparage the kick because it is much harder to execute correctly

but unfortunately a wrong guess fa jing.

Muay Thai guys don't like the side kick because after it is thrown there are not good combinations that smoothly follow. ( I disagree, but that's my opinion.)

since muay thai guys don't have to worry about throwing or waist clinches, they prefer standing more square and want techniques to flow. part of the battle of attrition is landing more shots than taking, where a sanshou fighter must be more discreet and choice about kicks.

Sanshou guys have the mentality that if my sidekick lands you'll be too far away from me to do anything so it will be easier to reset and reload. bottom line is that a sidekick is hard to catch and it can dish out some damage.

A classic block to a sidekick is to jam his hips with a front kick when you see him turn his hips. however a good sanshou guy will hide this motion with movement and strike feints.

[rogue]

ST, Better not tell the virtual MMA guys that. They think the MT round house is the only effective kick out there.;)

[fa_jing]

A side kick requires a more advanced sense of balance while kicking than a round kick to the same height for all heights.

In other words, it's harder to execute. Of course that is a consideration for the most well-trained of athletes. At the same time, I think it is pretty safe -- in fact I've been thrown off of high round kicks before, but I've never been thrown off of a side kick (not that I'm kicking high) - still that high round kick can knock a MF out.

Actually a well-placed high kick is sweet, come to think of it. :D