Kicks vs Kicks?!?

[Losttrak]

Lately I have been experimenting with kicks vs kicks. For example, if someone throws a kick above their waist I will throw a crescent that will basically "parry" it just like an arm would. I tend to aim above the leg near the hip and it diffuses much of the energy. The result is them being thrown off balance while I can generally step down easily and follow with the hands. I also can shorten the "block" by bending at the knee for sidekicks or low round kicks. I know other styles have leg vs leg applications (i.e. wing chun) so I was wondering if you could give me a run-down on some of your standard methods/applications?

[fa_jing]

Since they are initiating the movement, I do not favor kicking to block unless my kick will travel the shorter path. Otherwise their kick is going to get there first. I use more of the raised-knee, using my lower leg to deflect the incoming kick right or left. This is often followed by a groin kick or side kick to the knee, without placing the foot down, if they're still in range.

As far as kicking the kick, actually what you described with the crescent kick inside to outside does exist in Wing Chun, as well using a front thrusting kick against their hip or groin if they throw a telegraphed roundhouse. Also a kick with the toes pointed out (twist kick) against a pressure point near the inside top of the thigh against a round house.

Then of course, are the stop kicks: turning the foot in or out and catching the lower part of their leg as they raise their leg up to kick. Requires good timing.

[red5angel]

"As far as kicking the kick, actually what you described with the crescent kick inside to outside does exist in Wing Chun"

Fa_jing, what are you talking about?

I like the front thrust kick to the hip/inner thigh when they load the leg. hit it as quick as possible the less balanced they will be and it can be really quick to!

[fa_jing]

Red5 - the "lotus kick" from Chum Kil can be used this way - or so I hear - we actually practice a different version of the form that has side kicks instead, and we never practiced that application. But some fellas on the Wing Chun forum said that it could be used that way. Personally, I think it's a bit slow, but Bruce Lee sured liked that kick and made it a big part of his JKD.

[red5angel]

gotcha! I am not sure I would be comfu using it that way but I guess to each his own! I still really like the front kick in wingchun for jamming, its done wonders for me in sparring!

[Losttrak]

I wish we had some Wing Chun stylists (or any other style for that matter) that were willing to get together and train with other styles.... Style alienation is excruciating.

[red5angel]

gotta be someone in your area that practices wingchun and would be willing to workout with you?!

[Losttrak]

Hehe they are well-hidden...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Losttrak
Lately I have been experimenting with kicks vs kicks. For example, if someone throws a kick above their waist I will throw a crescent that will basically "parry" it just like an arm would. I tend to aim above the leg near the hip and it diffuses much of the energy. The result is them being thrown off balance while I can generally step down easily and follow with the hands. I also can shorten the "block" by bending at the knee for sidekicks or low round kicks. I know other styles have leg vs leg applications (i.e. wing chun) so I was wondering if you could give me a run-down on some of your standard methods/applications?

Why bother? seriously... since he's kicking, you'll have to have the timing and the reaction down to pull that off on a regular basis - it's so much easier to use your hands and step in.

Then, you also have to consider fast kickers - tkd guys are really good counter kickers - They would out kick you.

[yenhoi]

Agree with sevenstar. Depends on all the unmentionable variables. Its silly to play a kicking game when your base is so valuable. There are common reactions to common angles/techniques that everyone trains at some point, like a thrust vs a round.

Never been in a sparring situation where the fight has lasted in the kicking range long enough for any "hook vs hook vs hook vs hook vs hook boxing type" situation to happen, the energys just arent there with kicking tools - too much up and down etc.

:eek:

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Losttrak
Hehe they are well-hidden...

LOL here too! I've met guys from other styles that want to train, but no wingchunners 'round here

[iron thread]

I always thought Wing Chun trained for kick vs. kick in sticky leg training.

[dnc101]

Blocking kicks with a kick is impractical as action (his kick) will beat reaction (your blocking kick) unless you first move the target. Instead of kicking, try this: for low front kciks, use a leg check. Often his kick will carry your leg up into a chamber and it is in a superior (higher) position. This stops his kick reaching the target and positions you to counter kick at a time when he is trying to reestablish his base. Another trick I've used is to let the leg check ride up a little, then lunge forward and plant in close. This will turn him and cause him to plant out of position and off ballance.

I usually have good luck trapping side kicks to the abdomen, because most people drop their kick a little as they withdraw it. The trick is to move the target just enough that they miss, but not so much that they know they missed, so they will commit.

Roundhouses: low I either move out, or away from the kick and leg check. Mid level I sometimes move inside and jam and strike simultanously, but that requires good speed and timeing. You can also step to the side and put up a universal block (uses both arms). Then move in to jam and strike before he replants. If you do this, make sure you step far enough that you don't take the full force of the kick on the block. High, jamming works good. But sometimes you can yield as you parry and carry the leg over and past rotating them out of position and pulling them off ballance.

Just a few ideas that have worked for me a few times.

[Souljah]

I always thought Wing Chun trained for kick vs. kick in sticky leg training.

I thought wing chun only had 3 kicks in the strict system...?

[Sho]

I find countering kicks with hands very effective. It's very "yin & yang" to counter hands with feet and kicks with hand techniques. A simple note about this theory: Hands are shorter than feet, but then again, feet are clumsier than hands. I always follow this ideology when sparring and I find it very effective.

[Losttrak]

As far as the effectiveness of a kick vs a kick, I know it is somewhat impractical at this point whether it is due speed/control, etc, etc. However there may be something to it once the "trick" to it is learned. When an opponent attacks with a strong kick, it provokes a reaction... one that is ultimately predictable. I am just brainstorming with other ways of defeating kicks other than the traditional. Lets just assume I have the wherewithal to get my kick up in time to block what, in this case, is a roundhouse kick... I have noticed that when two legs meet, the first kicker kicks with force in relation to the body's position while the second kicker's forces work towards the projectile coming at them... In most cases the first kick is unprepared for the retributive attack (aimed at the fulcrum of the kick's leverage) and it tends to throw the person off balance. Another option may be applying the force closer to the knee hyperextending the leg. Keep in mind these dont have to be full kicks but even an upraised, angled knee may work in many cases. Anyways, its just an experiment in an attempt to break out of common solutions to the same old problem... Some people may argue if its not broke, dont fix it.. but hey... where is the art in martial arts if we dont experiment with new ideas, eh?

[yenhoi]

Doesnt sound like a new idea or something totally unique. Sounds like the same ole same ole counter-attack.

Eventually we need to explore not only kicking vs kicks, but catching kicks, scooping kicks, knees vs kicks, general blocks, deflections, punches vs kicks, all that fun comes around sometime.

This sort of study and experimentation shouldent feel new, you have been doing it with your upper body for some time now. Alot of boxers at first train to respond to most lead hooks with a lead hook, eventually for some, they learn how to counter-fight, etc.

[yenhoi]

I would say in 'super strict' WCK there would be at least 4 kicking techniques/structures. There would also be the 3 leg structures (tan/bong/fook.) The WCK philo about being kicked wouldent be to kick the kick, but much like with the hands, attack the base (balance/opponents motherline/whatnot.) Of course depending on all the stuff thats going on, the WCK would be moving forawrd (stepping) and if something happened to get in the way, then it would get kicked, kicking the kick in most cases is more costly then stepping in. Id say.

[fa_jing]

there are 8 traditional kicks in Wing Chun.

I think that hands or footwork is the best way to deal with kicks from a distance. From close up, legs vs. legs

Yenhoi : what is the fook gerk like?

[omarthefish]

1. Wing Chun has 8 kicks!? That's more than Hung Gar.

2. Blocking a front with a crescent if just plain wrong.

Unless you way faster than him, the front kick has less distance to travel than the crescent and will generally arive first.

Here's my contribution. From my personal experience the most effective counterkicks are:

-vs. front - ¡µ¡®lau' kick to his shin. It's a stomp with the toes pointing outwards. If he chambers, you can usually kick to his standing hip offsetting his balance and robbing his front kick of any power. If he kicks staight off the ground (quicker) kick his shin or (if your fast enough) thigh.

-vs. round house - > For a thai style roundhouse back at him but at a lower angle. Kick up underneath his roundhouse to his standing leg near the groin. For a chambered roundhouse, kick the chambered thigh with the stomp kick referred to in 'vs. front kick'

- side kick -> chambered: non-chambered to his thigh/but. Non-chambered must be divided into high or low. High: lean back and low side kick to his standing leg/groin. Low. --> rear leg: 'lau' kick to his thigh. Front leg: to quick to counterkick. Drop a lead elbow onto his ankle.

-back kick -> frontleg side kick to his thigh/but.

- axe kick -> front stomp kick to his pelvis or pivot away and front leg back kick to his chest.

-Spinning back hook -> don't bother counter kicking. If he's stupid enough to lead with this you need to shoot in close and take him down. This kick, to me, is only usefull as a couter kick to a mid to high level round kick and even then it's not as good as the counterkicking options I mentioned earlier.

Counter kicking is my preferred method of dealing with most kicks. It tends to frustrate opponents and diturb them mentally. If I sense their mental balance has been disturbed then it's time to stop counterkicking and move in for a bodyblock ala professional hockey and knock them down. When the mental balance goes, the physical balance tends to follow.

[yenhoi]

I dont have the dummy form so thats where the other kicks are?

Tan - toes pointed out
Bong - toes pointed in
Fook - toes hanging (pointed down)

They all seem to resemble the hand(arm) structures..

Not an expert so, what do you think?

:eek:

[fa_jing]

I'm not an expert either, and I don't know the dummy form, although that is in fact where the other kicks are. The eight kicks are:

jing gurk, wang gurk,soogurk, yaai sut gerk, tiu gerk,jut gerk,
tai sut, chai gurk...
front, side, sweep,stomp, instep,jerk down, knee top, scraping

(courtesy of Yuanfen)

I was aware that the tan gerk was for deflecting to the outside, and bon gerk to the inside, was not aware of the foot position.

The "lotus kick" from the Chum kil form is not considered a seperate kick, but rather an application of the front kick