Return to the Origin Tour III

[T. Cunningham]

The preliminary schedule for the 2003 Return to the Origin Tour has been set. The tour will begin December 2 and will last for two weeks ending December 16. Initial plans are to teach the Gum Lung Sin - Golden Dragon Fan, Ngoi Lun Big Da Yum Yeung Sou - san da techniques and applications, Mo Gik Kuen and Goul Kung Po - Nine Palaces Footwork.

Last year's trip was incredible. It was a great experience meeting people from all over the world who also train Choy Lee Fut and the instruction from Master Chen Yong Fa and those assisting him was top notch.

This may very well be the last of the Return to the Origin tours so don't miss out on the opportunity. Additional information can be found at CLFMA.COM (http://www.clfma.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index&catid=4)

See you in China!

T. Cunningham

[extrajoseph]

I heard of 2 fan sets already, Shoi Sau Sin (Breaking Hand) and Fei Lung Sin (Flying Dragon), nice to know there is a third one. How many fan set are there?

I know "Big Da Yum Yeung Sou" means close fighting with Yin and Yang hands (hands turned up and down) but what does Ngoi Lun means?

Also, is the Nine Palaces the same as the 8 directions plus the center?

[CLFNole]

Extrajoseph:

I though CLF also had Gum Loong Sin (Gold Dragon Fan) and Dai Yuet Sin (Pressure Point Fan).

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

I have not heard of Dim (or Dai) Yuet Sin (Pressure Point Fan) as a weapon form on its own, I thought there is a wooden dummy form to practice striking the pressure points with the fan instead.

I notice in their brochure it says Chen Yong Fa will teach the HSG/WST instructors the Siu Sin Jong (Small Fan Dummy), so there must be a Da Sin Jong (Large Fan Dummy) form as well.

It would make sense to hit something solid to practice accuracy in striking and judging distance.

[JAZA]

From what I read in an IKF article, there are three steel fan forms: breaking hand, flying dragon and golden dragon.
Extrajoseph do you know if in the case of CLF forms the yum yeung concepts are related to taoist concepts like tai chi ?

[extrajoseph]

JAZA,

As far as I know, the Yum Yeung (Yin Yang) concept used in CLF is the same as other Taoist concepts like Tai Chi.

Interesting thing is I read in the same tour brochure they will have a revision of Tai Git Kuen in the Lohan Qigong part of the workshops, now Tai Git Kuen is Cantonese for Taijiquan and I didn't know CLF has its own form of Taijiquan. May be someone who does internal CLF forms can tell us something about it.

I have read about Mo Git Kuen or Wujiquan before, so it comes as no surprise to learn that there is Tai Git Kuen as well even though I have not heard of it before, because the Taoist concept says Tai Git (Taiji) comes from Mo Git (Wuji) and from Tai Git we get Yum Yeung and from Yum Yeung we get all the things under heaven.

JosephX

[Serpent]

Well, from what I hear, Master Chen is releasing all sorts of Chan Family stuff that was before kept within the family. I guess this is a part of that. I know the whole Lohan system was kept secret till Master Chen emigrated to Australia.

Quiet achievers, those Chan Clan people! ;)

[Sho]

I heard the Tai Gik Kuen was taught at the Return to the Origin seminar in December 2002.

[JAZA]

Thanks extrajoseph.
As far as i know Chan family lineage were teaching 4 Luohan Qigong forms and now Master Chen is teaching Tai Gik kuen.
Doc Fai Wong also teach Tai Gik kuen from Wong Ying Sam lineage.

[Fu-Pow]

I'd like to learn some CLF Taiji so I can compare it to my Chen Taiji.

I think the thing that connects all Chinese MA's is somehow tied in with Zen Buddhism and/or Taoist meditation.

This type of meditation creates insight and insight into body movement and function would be a part of that.

So whether you call it Shaolin or Taoist influenced it might be very similar in a lot of ways.

CLF definitely has more of a "external" "force on force" element to it that you don't see initially in Taiji. However, at the high levels of Taiji (Chen specifically) you do see more expression of "hard" power, but that power can become instantly "soft."

In CLF the power is "hard" all the way through. Perhaps the advanced CLF forms teach you better body mechanics so you can be "sung" (relaxed but not limp) like in Taiji.

The major difference I see in CLF and Taiji is the difference in body mechanics. Taiji's body mechanics are really "high level" and they generate a kind of unified "torque" internally. There is very little to zero muscle used at all. This internal power is combined with momentum to generate force.

The CLF that I know uses a more basic kind of physics that relies more heavily on "external" momentum. It's more "ballistic" meaning that your muscle tenses then releases then tenses again at the end of the movement.

Taiji doesn't have this initial muscle contraction or really any at all. It uses the muscles like rubber bands.

Just some ideas but I' really like to learn some CLF "internals."

[extrajoseph]

Serpent,

If Chen Yong-Fa is a quiet achiever (keep quiet and get things done), how come some people like Hiram and Frank and Dave Lacey are giving him a hard time? He must be doing something to make these people feel uncomfortable.

Sho,

It would make sense that they taught Tai Git Kuen last year because it says in the brochure revision in 2003 tour.

Jaza,

I know DFW teaches the Lohan 18 Hands from Wong Ying-Sum lineage (Wong was a disciple of Chan Yiu-Chi) but I did not know he teaches the Tai Git Kuen as well, so it must have been around longer than I thought.

Fu-Pow,

I like to learn some CLF Taji to compare with my normal Taiji as well. I think any complete MA system must have some internal forms because of the body/mind thing. IMO, both CLF and Taijiquan have good body mechanics; I think the internal bit is about how to use our qi or life force better. Part of it is like what you said about making the body more elastic like a rubber band, part of it is about connecting all parts of the body better at the joints and part of it is about “intention” or mind power, so at the end, our body and mind are one and there is no external and internal separation so we can get to use our qi in the best possible way. They are just some of my random thoughts, I wonder if anyone out there who has done Tai Git Kuen would like to share.

JosephX

[Sho]

Originally posted by extrajoseph
It would make sense that they taught Tai Git Kuen last year because it says in the brochure revision in 2003 tour.Guess I misread the revision part (as seminar or something). :D

[premier]

Originally posted by extrajoseph
I wonder if anyone out there who has done Tai Git Kuen would like to share.


I've seen it performed a couple of times, done some application and followed my si hing while he was practising it. It's a lot like clf, but there's less normal straight punches, swinging strikes and you don't reach and extend your joints as much as in CLF. They're more or less replaced with palm and soft techniques. The ideas or sticking to the opponent and taking the opponent off balance is there IMO, so I think it's a lot like tai ji, which I have zero experience with =) I understood that it can be done as a normal fast form or slow like tai ji. But remember. This is based on my limited experience. I'm sure there's someone at clfma.com, who can tell you about it more accurately.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by extrajoseph
Serpent,

If Chen Yong-Fa is a quiet achiever (keep quiet and get things done), how come some people like Hiram and Frank and Dave Lacey are giving him a hard time? He must be doing something to make these people feel uncomfortable.


I think you've answered your own question there, Joseph. There are a couple of old adages that seem to fit here, but that would just be construed as stirring.

Insecurity?

[extrajoseph]

Premier,

Thanks for sharing, it sounds like what Fu-Pow said in earlier postings - one thing Taiji would aim for is to get your opponent off balance by sticking to him so he can't throw a decent punch at you. I think that is part of what it means by using the soft overcoming the hard.

The palm thing also fits in with higher level CLF forms - more about controlling a situation than being aggressive. It all make sense, thanks again.

JosephX

PS: Most normal Taiji forms are long and full of repetitions, is this a long form as well?

[extrajoseph]

Serpent,

Yeahhh... insecurity... good one! We have a lot of that nowadays.

;)

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks for sharing, it sounds like what Fu-Pow said in earlier postings - one thing Taiji would aim for is to get your opponent off balance by sticking to him so he can't throw a decent punch at you. I think that is part of what it means by using the soft overcoming the hard.

Yes, but not exactly. Other MA's have this concept of stick and follow,( for example, SPM and Wing Chun) to lead your opponent into an inadvantageous position. However, they don't relax all the way and their power is to some extent still external. They have hard AND soft but not hard INSIDE soft and vice versa.

Let me clarify this a bit from my own experience. One day when I had the opportunity to practice push hands with my Taiji Sifu he had me push on his elbow. As hard as I pushed I could not move (or him, I outweigh him by 90 lbs) . Then while I was pushing he had me feel his shoulder. It was completely limp as though he was not doing anything at all. There was no tension in his body anywhere.

I said "your completely relaxed and yet I can't move you?" What am I pushing against?"

He said "the ground."

So you see in really good Taiji there is zero muscle tension and yet the movement can be very hard and solid. But the hardness is inside, outside it feels soft because the muscles aren't tense. And likewise in Taiji they can generate great force (hardness) on the outside while being relaxed outside.

I'm not saying that Taiji is a better or worse art than CLF, they both have their good and bad points. But I think that the body mechanics of Taiji are more highly refined and the power is hidden inside the joints and tendons. In CLF the power is more of the normal type that comes from muscle release and contraction and the momentum that it generates.

Ya dig?

What I'm wondering is if the CLF Taiji seeks to get at this same type of power generation as Chen Taiji or if it is simply more of a Chi Gung type of health excercise?

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
What I'm wondering is if the CLF Taiji seeks to get at this same type of power generation as Chen Taiji or if it is simply more of a Chi Gung type of health excercise?

Hi Fu-Pow,

My two cents worth: I think the answer is a definite yes but I am not sure if it is in CLF Tai Git Kue as I have not seen it done before, but I have done a little bit of Yum Yeung Noi Nim Sou (Yin Yang Internal Sticky Hands) and the aim is the same as you mentioned.

The theory behind this is that our body gains its strength from transmitting any external forces applied to it along our skeletal structure, that is putting our skeleton under compression and extension. If our posture is correct and all our joints are aligned properly, then we can push or take a push without making a muscular effort. The secret is, as long as we don’t interfere, our bones will do it for us nicely and our opponent pushes the ground instead of us. We are just a conduit of qi.

Since it will only take a small amount of muscle to adjust our skeleton at the joints where it is most critical, your teacher can take your push without having any any tension in his body; he is just making minor adjustments where it matters most and using gravity effectively as you pushed him your hardest.

I don’t think this is unique to Chen Taiji, I think all good MA, including CLF, tries to do the same eventually. It is just being mechanically efficient without wasting energy and that is good for health as well. I guess because we don't see what goes on outside and it looks soft, we say it is internal or doing qigong for health.

Take it from me, if you outweight your sifu by 90 lbs, you will eventually push him if you just "let the force (gravity) be with you". Ya dig, ya grounded, ya push, ya win, bye bye sifu! But it may take 20 years.

JosepgX :D

[Serpent]

Yeah, what Joseph said.

This is one of my biggest problems with the western perceptions of CMA, exascerbated by half-arsed western instructors. All CMA systems should be complete; in other words, they should all develop from the hard to the soft, from the external to the internal. In truth, internal and external are the same thing, but to learn these things properly takes time and the process of developing from one through to the next has worked for years for many great sifus.

CLF is no different. Work hard and progress through the system and you will learn all the secrets there are to learn, assuming your teacher has the full sytem in his knowledge base.

Hmmm, perhaps we're stumbling onto this insecurity thing again, eh, Joseph? ;)

[extrajoseph]

:D

[extrajoseph]

Serpent,

Yeah seriously, that is the problem learning CMA in the West nowadays; most people see things in a partial way. They say stupid things like CLF is External (they don't know the Internal), Chen Taiji is not Taiji (they don't know Taiji), Taiji is not Kung Fu (they don't know Kung Fu), we only fight we don’t do forms (they don't know many forms), we only do forms for competitions (they don't know how to fight) and Qigong is only for health (they don't know Qigong), etc. etc.

I think the problem is as you put it, they don’t study deep enough of their own art before leaving their teachers and set up shop on their own. When they run out of progress, instead of going back to the same system (even it may be another teacher), they go to another style hoping to pick up what is missing and end up missing the point.

It is not just CLF; I think it happens to many other styles as well. The western CMA world is full of entrepreneurs and not enough committed student/teachers, no wonder some of them are feeling insecure because they have only "half an ar$e"..... (now that is a powerful image!)

JosephX

[Fu-Pow]

The theory behind this is that our body gains its strength from transmitting any external forces applied to it along our skeletal structure, that is putting our skeleton under compression and extension. If our posture is correct and all our joints are aligned properly, then we can push or take a push without making a muscular effort. The secret is, as long as we don’t interfere, our bones will do it for us nicely and our opponent pushes the ground instead of us. We are just a conduit of qi.

Yes, exactly. I can tell that you have experience in this style of kung fu as well.


don’t think this is unique to Chen Taiji, I think all good MA, including CLF, tries to do the same eventually. It is just being mechanically efficient without wasting energy and that is good for health as well. I guess because we don't see what goes on outside and it looks soft, we say it is internal or doing qigong for health.

This is what I don't quite understand. How could you do do a Sao Chui ,for example, following the same body requirements as Taiji? The Sao Chui for all intents and purposes is an external "momentum based" technique.

Perhaps the Chen Taiji Pao Chui form has a technique quite similar to a Sao Chui but you would not recognize it as such because the internal mechanics change the outside look of it.
There are other moves that have a CLF "look" (aka Shaolin"look") in the Pao Chui form but the movement is modified to conform to the Taiji principles.

What I'm guessing is that the external CLF techniques remain external and there is a subset of skills (eg Ng Lun Soi Hands) which fall under the "internal" category. This way the fighter can utilize both to his advantage.

At far range to medium range the CLF fighter can utilize his speed and reach using the external techniques. At a close range the fighter can utilize the "internal" techniques, even on an opponent that is bigger and has more physical strength.

Chen Taiji STARTS with this "internal" subset and develops it to a high level. Then they go back and add in the more "external" movements, modified, of course to confirm to the "internal "principles. What's interesting is that apparently Chen Taiji used to have a Long Fist routine that probably was similar in some ways to CLF. But this set was lost at some point in favor of the "internal" sets. So perhaps at some point it would have been very difficult to distinguish these supposedly "internal" and "external" arts and at some point arts like Chen Taiji utilized both as well.

As a side note, I've always wondered what would happen if my CLF teacher and Taiji teacher faught.

On the one hand my CLF sifu has so much speed, power and reach, if he got the first hit in it would be over very quickly. However, if my Taiji teacher evaded the strike and made contact with my CLF sifu I think it might be another story.

Who knows? I don't think I'll ever see it happen...nor would I want to for that matter!!!;)

Ya dig?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by extrajoseph
Serpent,

Yeah seriously, that is the problem learning CMA in the West nowadays; most people see things in a partial way. They say stupid things like CLF is External (they don't know the Internal), Chen Taiji is not Taiji (they don't know Taiji), Taiji is not Kung Fu (they don't know Kung Fu), we only fight we don’t do forms (they don't know many forms), we only do forms for competitions (they don't know how to fight) and Qigong is only for health (they don't know Qigong), etc. etc.

I think the problem is as you put it, they don’t study deep enough of their own art before leaving their teachers and set up shop on their own. When they run out of progress, instead of going back to the same system (even it may be another teacher), they go to another style hoping to pick up what is missing and end up missing the point.

It is not just CLF; I think it happens to many other styles as well. The western CMA world is full of entrepreneurs and not enough committed student/teachers, no wonder some of them are feeling insecure because they have only "half an ar$e"..... (now that is a powerful image!)

JosephX

Exactly! Just what I was trying to get at. And indeed, it certainly isn't just CLF but many, many arts that suffer from this.

Half an arse! LOL. Fear the One-Buttocked Monk! :D

[Serpent]

Fu Pow, I hear what you're saying. However, my experience with Taiji is quite limited. But I am reminded of the saying: "All roads lead to Rome!"

Some roads are longer, some shorter, some follow different routes, but if you see them all through to the end they will get you to your destination.

To wander off the road half-way through your journey and then claim that the road doesn't go to Rome at all is rather foolish, no?

Hmmm. Not really sure if that analogy works! I think Joseph said it better! :) ;)

[Fu-Pow]

Serpent-

All paths lead to rome, as long as you have the right map. Otherwise you might end up in Greece with a one-a$$ cheek monk...lol!!!

[extrajoseph]

Fu-Pow,

Getting the right map is one problem, learning how to read it is another. Being southerners, the CLF map has the numerals on the side running from bottom to top and the alphabets on top running from left to right. The grid is smaller at three quarter of an inch.

Being foreigners from the north, the Chen Taiji map has the numerals on the top running from left to right and the alphabets on the side running from top to bottom. The grid is bigger at one inch.

As long as you can figure out the difference and don’t mix them up, you will get to Rome instead of Greece with a one-arse monk smoking Green Grass….

Besides, Greece and Rome were one country at some stage in history and they both use a lot of garlic in their cooking and the women all put on weight after they got married! So it doesn’t matter that much in the long any way. You are still making progress, for all good maps have more or less the same amount of information on them. Ya dig?

:D

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
On the one hand my CLF sifu has so much speed, power and reach, if he got the first hit in it would be over very quickly. However, if my Taiji teacher evaded the strike and made contact with my CLF sifu I think it might be another story.

I have another useful cliche besides Serpent's "All roads lead to Rome":

"It is not the style, it is the Sifu"!

Ya Dig?

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
This is what I don't quite understand. How could you do do a Sao Chui ,for example, following the same body requirements as Taiji? The Sao Chui for all intents and purposes is an external "momentum based" technique.

Any good mechanic would tell you, in order for us to build up the external momentum, we need internal "compression driven" techniques, the same as in Taijiquan, to overcome the body inertia. What you can see is Sao Chui and what you can't see is Taiji and that is pure Chinese metaphysics for all systems of CMA.

One body + one physical law = one technique + one outcome.

Ya dig?

[Serpent]

Quite right. A sow chui with qi and a sow chui without qi would look the same to an observer. Until the point of contact that is, when the difference should be obvious! ;)

[extrajoseph]

Ouch! That got qi sow chui hurts.

So what have we learned today boys?

1) “All roads lead to Rome” - all good Kung Fu styles try to achieve much the same thing.

2) To get there we need a good map so we don’t get lost and it is better to work with one good map than many not so good ones, that is we should learn a good comprehensive style like CLF (otherwise we may end up in Greece with a half cheeky monk smoking Green Grass and marry a fat Greek who likes to cook in garlic, which is still not so bad compare to not got qi at all).

3) It is not enough to have a good map we need a good teacher to help us to decode the map and show us the best way to get to Rome.

4) In the end, it is not the style; it is yourself that will make the difference and the same can be said of your Sifu(s).

What we have not talked about is the time it will take to get there. Train once a week it is like walking; train twice a week it is like riding a bicycle, train three times a week it is like driving a car, train four times a week it is like etc. etc.

Have a pleasant trip boys! Watch out for the got qi gilrs on the way, you may never get there at all! Them's the break. :D

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

Howard Choy from the Sydney HSG used to have a website which had some articles on CLF & Tai Chi etc. One of them was about the Lohan ChiGong System. It said the 4th form Wu Chi, combine the skills of the other 3 forms with fighting intents. The movements are fluid & flowing, the body soft & supple. Stillness of mind is blended with movement of body, the fast flows into the slow. It's a reflection of the cosmic dance of creation where yin & yang, the universal opposites, interact to form the myriad phenomena & entities of the universe. It is a very effective fighting form, combining the hard physical fighting skills with the soft mental concentration & chi circulation. "Wu Chi" is not unlike the Chen style Tai Chi's "Pao Chiu". There are graceful movements inter-mixed with explosive strikes. It is considered to be one of the most advanced fist forms of CLF. Lohan chi gong can be practiced on its own for health & well being. However, for the serious CLF stylist it holds the key to the secrets of the advanced techniques. In the primary level we tend to work mainly with the physical aspects of kung fu, stances, footwork, punches & kicks. Power comes mainly from the muscles & bones. It is external & superficial. To progress onto the higher levels we must work with the body, the mind & the spirit as an integral whole, in other words, the "internal" aspects of kung fu. We achieve this by working with the chi, our intrinsic life force, for this is where lohan chi gong really shines.

This is a section from the article I thought u guys might find interesting.

[Fu-Pow]

Serpent-


Quite right. A sow chui with qi and a sow chui without qi would look the same to an observer. Until the point of contact that is, when the difference should be obvious!

I think that terms like "qi" lead to confusion, especially in the "internal" aspects of martial arts.

If we should substitute the word "qi" with the term "efficiency" or "efficient functioning."

So yes I would agree with your statement under this definition that a Sao Chui delivered with "efficiency" would have more power than one delivered "inefficiently."

However, this technique would still lack the efficiency of a strike delivered in a Taiji-way because the coordination of the body is not as highly refined.

So my point is that you would never see a Sao Chui executed in the CLF way in a Taiji form because I do not the believe the Sao Chui is consistent with the Taji type of power generation.

Joseph-


Any good mechanic would tell you, in order for us to build up the external momentum, we need internal "compression driven" techniques, the same as in Taijiquan, to overcome the body inertia. What you can see is Sao Chui and what you can't see is Taiji and that is pure Chinese metaphysics for all systems of CMA.

The Sao Chui is driven by external muscle contraction/release and then momentum. The Taiji strike is driven by internal compression/expansion/internal torque and then momentum. I believe that's the key difference.

Golden Armor-

I've read that article before. Very interesting. I'm curious though if the Wuji form is a combination of "hard" AND "soft" or "hard" with in " soft." Aka...." a needle wrapped in cotton. "

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
The Sao Chui is driven by external muscle contraction/release and then momentum. The Taiji strike is driven by internal compression/expansion/internal torque and then momentum. I believe that's the key difference.
Your statement above is in keeping with what you said earlier - you have not learned any "internal" CLF, so you are trying to get it through doing Chen Taiji. That is fair enough, many CLF masters before you have done the same.

What you just said about Sao Chui (and CLF strikes in general) does not ring true to me. The first thing we learn in CLF is Da Pok and Sei Pok (strike with the shoulders), I remebered my Sifu used to drill this into us, "Use your Yiu-Ma (waist and footwork)! Use your Yiu-Ma!". Isn't it done with "internal compression/expansion/internal torque and then momentum" if we were to do it properly? If it is done only with "external muscle contraction/release and then momentum" why do we have to work on the Ma? The Ma is not just for stability, it is there to give us "the internal compression/expansion/internal torque" needed to generate momentum with power and reach which we are famous for.

It sounds both you and I are needed to sign up on this RTOIII tour to satisfy our curiosity. I wonder if I can just buy a copy of the video of CLF Tai Git Kuen instead! :D

[CLFNole]

I am curious as to what type of internal style background that Chan Heung had. If he created internal CLF he must have had some kind of tai-chi, ying-yi or baat kwa background. I mean I don't think you just come up with something and call it internal CLF.

Anybody know anything about his internal background or was this added by later generations?

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

CLF Nole-

I think that either scenario might be true.

Some Shaolin styles have "internal" training of the Taiji type at a higher level.

So Chan Heung may have transmitted what he had learned from his teachers.

On the other hand it could have been added in later to supplement "external" CLF techniques.

Joseph-


Your statement above is in keeping with what you said earlier - you have not learned any "internal" CLF, so you are trying to get it through doing Chen Taiji. That is fair enough, many CLF masters before you have done the same.

Yes, having done both styles (CLF/Taiji) for a bit now I can definitely say that there is advantage to learning both "games."
I had an opportunity to learn the first Chi Gung form (I think Siu Lohan or something) from Sifu Seng Au but I screwed up on the day I was supposed to be there. ARRRRRRGHHHHHH!!!!



What you just said about Sao Chui (and CLF strikes in general) does not ring true to me. The first thing we learn in CLF is Da Pok and Sei Pok (strike with the shoulders), I remebered my Sifu used to drill this into us, "Use your Yiu-Ma (waist and footwork)! Use your Yiu-Ma!".

Yes, and I hope I didn't imply that CLF is some clumsy, inefficient art. Obviously if I thought that I wouldn't still be practicing it. And there are many similarities between Taiji and CLF but there is definitely a difference in body usage and application. Chen Taiji is harder to learn, that's for sure. Maybe the "internal" CLF is harder to learn too?



Isn't it done with "internal compression/expansion/internal torque and then momentum" if we were to do it properly? If it is done only with "external muscle contraction/release and then momentum" why do we have to work on the Ma? The Ma is not just for stability, it is there to give us "the internal compression/expansion/internal torque" needed to generate momentum with power and reach which we are famous for.

There is defnitely some of this in CLF. That's why you see the twisting action. But even if you do CLF very relaxed you will never approach the level of relaxation of the muscles that a Taiji person has doing a Taiji form correctly. Again, maybe the Chi Gung forms teach this?


It sounds both you and I are needed to sign up on this RTOIII tour to satisfy our curiosity. I wonder if I can just buy a copy of the video of CLF Tai Git Kuen instead!

Maybe my friend. However, I'm going to Beijing next year to work on my Taiji with my Taiji Sifu's teacher, so I don't know if I can do two trips in one year.

A tape would defnitely be cool.

Ciao

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

CLFNole,

The internal CLF (Lohan QiGong System) is a complete internal system itself. It was taught to Chan Heung by Choy Fook along with the entire Shaolin kung fu system, Dummies, medicine, etc. Chan Heung got most of his knowledge from Choy Fook. I remember reading somewhere that after he studied under Choy Fook his kung fu was very different than earlier. Probably had a lot to do with the internals. The Lohan QiGong system was meant to have been created way back by Damo, who taught the monks. After generations of being taught a monk named Gok Yuen improved & enlarged the system. And again Lee Sau & Bak Juk Fung further added & improved the system into a effective fighting system. This was eventualy passed down to Choy Fook. More could have been added by Choy Fook or the Chen Family? I think the Tai Gik form was added by the Chen's. I remember Howard Choy saying that the Tai Gik form was created from the Wu Chi as Joseph sad earlier.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
I've read that article before. Very interesting. I'm curious though if the Wuji form is a combination of "hard" AND "soft" or "hard" with in " soft." Aka...." a needle wrapped in cotton. "
Your comment whether “the Wuji form is a combination of "hard" AND "soft" or "hard" WITHIN "soft." showed you have a typical westerner’s approach to Kung Fu – dividing things up in black and white, whereas in reality, when it is hard on the inside it is always soft on the outside, when it is soft on the inside it is always hard on the outside, there is yin within yang and yang within yin in everything we do, one cannot do without the other. With good Kung Fu, one minute the body can be like a needle wrapped in cotton (hard within soft), the next minute it can be like a fireman’s hose filled with water under pressure (hard and soft). They are both expression of the same reality where the internal and the external, the soft and the hard, the within and the without are merged into one. This is the true meaning of Wuji and Taiji and judging from what Golden Armor was saying, I think that is what CLF Mo Git Kuen and Tai Git Kuen are trying to do.

[JAZA]

About internal training of Chan Heung, I guess ( not sure) that monk Choy Fook and his disciple Chan Heung was very inffluenced by taoist arts in his residence in Lao Fow(??) mountain.
Even in the history of Chan Heung is said that he travelled with some friends after his departure form Lao Fow mountain, one of them a taoist monk.
I "guess" Chan heung doesn't taught internal to all of his students, because of the revolutionarian aspects of the first trained for whom the fighting fast learning was their primary goal.
I guess this is why the internal aspects were kept in the family, considering that some disciples were considered family.
Only guessings. My english is getting worst, I guess I won't pass TOEFL. :D

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by Sho
I heard the Tai Gik Kuen was taught at the Return to the Origin seminar in December 2002.


Clf has a taiji set?? Interesting...... Does it have any relation to any of the 4 major families of taji or was it formed apart within the clf style?

[NorthernMantis]

Ok never mind I read the rest of the post silly me.:D :rolleyes:

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
[B]CLF Nole-

I think that either scenario might be true.

Some Shaolin styles have "internal" training of the Taiji type at a higher level.

So Chan Heung may have transmitted what he had learned from his teachers.

On the other hand it could have been added in later to supplement "external" CLF techniques.

/B]

I would like to propose a third scenario: these so called Qigong or Internal sets were part and parcel of the CLF curriculum passed down by Chan Heung. CLF right from the beginning was both internal and external, the same as for other Shaolin arts from which Chen Taijiquan can also trace its connection.

Slow down each movement to improve body co-ordination and to soften up the tension of the muscles without losing speed or power are part of the process of advancement. Not only Taiji does that Shaolin Kuen also do the same.

The difference between the past and the present is they are now being grouped into a separate label for teaching and marketing purpose. Many western students think Kung Fu and Qigong or the External and the Internal arts are two different things, so why not teach and market them differently?

Many older students only want to do a softer type of MA, so the Lohan Qigong system will suit them better than starting them from Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Chui and get them to work with the bags and the jongs.

Whether we like it or not, there is an increasing pressure to separate TCMA into Kung Fu for fighting (San Da tornaments), Wushu for sports competitions and Qigong for health and healing including Taiji for arthritis and stress management etc etc.

[hasayfu]

extrajoseph - excellent point.

While I'm from a Hung gar back ground, I want to emphasize that Shaolin arts have the same theories as Taiji and the other so-catergorized "internal" arts.

Specifically Fu-pow and I have had this discussion but since I am not a CLF practioner, couldn't say for certain that it was retained in the system.

Before I get too far off from topic, I like to also point out that the distinction is also the result of many students, learning the intermediate stuff and can effectively use it that they do not feel the need to internalize. They then teach students who propogate the myth.

It's further promoted by the fact that shaolin arts, by the virture of their training methods, can get to a high level of competency without a single mention of internal skills. Conversely, it takes a long while for a Taiji person to gain any type of combat skill, by nature of their training method. Then when two people of the same "years" meet, the shaolin guy wins and discounts taiji in whole.

Only if they have access to high level shaolin (or get b*tch slapped by a good Taiji person :)) do they see how much more potential there is.

[extrajoseph]

hasayfu,

You are right, most shaolin students don't hang around long enough to experience the internal stuff and most taiji students don't go beyong push hands to fight in combat.

Instead of going deep into their art, some students tried to do both "shaolin" and "wudang", thinking they will get to the other half of the secrets, but never manage to cross the river that divides, because they have a black v white, us v them, internal v external, north v south, hard v soft, etc. mentality.

They can't see the forest of "ten thousand fists have one principle", they can only see individual trees of stylistic variations. Like a curious monkey, they jump from tree to tree, not knowing they are living in a huge huge forest.

One day, god willing, they may, just by chance, jump high above the dense foliage and.....

CLF Taijiquan? No big deal! :D

[Fu-Pow]

They can't see the forest of "ten thousand fists have one principle", they can only see individual trees of stylistic variations. Like a curious monkey, they jump from tree to tree, not knowing they are living in a huge huge forest.

Haha....who's the poet now?!!!!

Joseph-

Just so you know .....I hear where you are coming from.

I've been doing a lot of reading on Zen meditation lately.

The concept of Zen is non-duality or non-discrimination. Experiencing reality as a whole.

You can take this mindset and apply it to martial arts as well. Not discriminating between internal, external, hard, soft, etc. Simply keeping "mindfullness" about what you are doing with your movement.

However, science (ie the thought process of discrimination) can be a very useful tool sometimes.

It allows us to break things into smaller chunks so that we can understand and digest them into the larger whole.

But you see, unlike some westerners I only see this mode of thought as ONE way of thinking not the only way of thinking.

Both mindsets have their own time and usefullness.

Think about this also....

Even though karate and Taiji would be at the opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of hard and soft, they can both be done with "mindfullness" or "bare attention." Does this make "mindful" karate "internal?" I think if you praciticed it this way for many years it would. And in some ways the movement would begin to perhaps resemble and art like Xing Yi.

It's all about potential. Can you reach your own bodies own kinetic potential? What mindset will allow you to do this?

Some people probably never reach there potential because they continue to fight with THEMSELVES (ie there is still 2 not 1). There body and mind retains internal tensions that block them from achieving their potential.

Arts like Taiji, Ba Gua and Xing Yi start with this concept of mindfulness. Shaolin Arts work more on the externally physical side of things first.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Arts like Taiji, Ba Gua and Xing Yi start with this concept of mindfulness. Shaolin Arts work more on the externally physical side of things first.

.... and as they worked there way towards each other, we have CLF. ;)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Serpent-

I think that terms like "qi" lead to confusion, especially in the "internal" aspects of martial arts.

If we should substitute the word "qi" with the term "efficiency" or "efficient functioning."


Well, in that case, you're completely missing my point. Replacing the word qi with efficiency is changing the fundamental point that I'm making. You seem to have a very limited conception of the aspects of internal/external training, which is fine; your development will continue at it's own pace. However, don't change what I say to suit your current level of knowledge. Read over again what Joseph has said, as he has put things far better than I could and I would only be repeating him anyway.

I'm not having a go at you here, just suggesting that you broaden your horizons as far as these things are concerned.

[Fu-Pow]

Serpent-

Hmmm....I'll give you quote from a book I have when I have a chance (not a martial arts book). There is a lot of confusion around the term qi and this book really helped me to clarify it.
But basically Qi relates to function. In the west qi has been taken to mean some sort of" bioelectrical energy" which I don't think is exactly correct and shouldn't be taken at face value.

[extrajoseph]

Fu-Pow,

Serpent is rude but he has a point, instead of quoting words, we should try to experience qi and that is one of the aims of doing qigong. It is not just a subjective feeling, it will make a difference to the way we move.

We will get "it" (functional effeciency or bioelectrical energy or whatever terms people used to describe the indescribable) when our posture is correct, our mind is calm and focused and our breath is integrated with both.

Good luck, may be it will happen in the year of the Ram. ;)

JosephX

[Fu-Pow]

Great convo guys!!!!

I think it's ok if we agree to disagree on a couple points.

It's hard to talk about kung fu on the internet without getting into issues of semantics. Chinese language only complicates things even more with it's poetic nature and double meanings.

Martial arts like some other things is meant to be experienced and practiced rather than "practiced" and batted around with words.

Still, I felt this was valuable conversation.

Gung Hay Faat Choy Everybody!!!!!

[Serpent]

D'oh! I had no intention of being rude. However, I do get annoyed when people try to tell me what it is I'm saying; maybe that came across! ;)

Fu-Pow, I disagree that qi is purely mechanical or a result of posture or function. However, I do agree that experienceing qi is impossible without good posture and function.

For the record, there are many books, martial arts or not, Chinese or not, that discuss qi and they don't all agree on their definitions and descriptions, so it's really down to each person to operate from their own experiential perspective. Semantics are indeed a part of the problem.

Anyway, gung hei faat chui!

[extrajoseph]

Back to the main topic of this thread, I just find this article about the first RTO tour on the clfma site:

http://clfma.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=56&page=1

I have been to the King Mui Village and it is really worth a visit.