Fav trapping combo's

[mtod1]

Hi all.

What's everyone favourite combo that leads into one or two arm trapping.

Seeya

[wingchunalex]

mine would be double lop da. ie- i lop da, opponent wu sau's my punch, I lop his wu sau and cross their arms and punch.

I like to finish it off with taking the hand i punched with last and gum sau'ing and chang jeung'ing with my free hand, then lop'ing with the hand i chang jeung'ed with and doing knife hand with my free hand.:)

[mtod1]

Hi all.

Personally I like to punch and wait for a pak sau/punch return then i'll turn and gaun sau/punch to head then trap crossed hands and punch to head. Maybe even follow up with a little sweep to the back of the heel or kick to side of knee.

Seeya

[planetwc]

I don't think I have any favorites. A trap just happens or doesn't for me.

[KenWingJitsu]

exactly. I chain punch and keep punching. thats my trap :rolleyes:

[wingchunalex]

that feint is wing chun. i disagree with the oppinion that wing chun doesn't use feints. in sparring for fighting a trained martial artist wing chun should use feints i think. the only time wing chun doesn't use feints is in real life and death self defence on the street.

feinting a kick is a good way for you to get your opponent to drop their hand/s.

[Neurotic]

Ah.. the good ol' kick fake, looking for the hands to drop...

Reminds me of gradings past..
(more on the recieving end, not the giving)

[Stevo]

I have this funny thing that is most definitely NOT proper wing chun but has worked everytime except once...

Sounds like a good tactic to me.

I haven't learnt Chi Gerk yet, but I think I'd be inclined to instinctively lift my leg or try to Gum Sau it with one hand, not two. Also, with the forward or advancing stance as I learnt it, the crotch is covered by the lead leg being turned in anyway, unless you're caught unawares and aren't in that stance at the time. But then again, chances are you wouldn't be using it against another Wing Chun person in a real fight.

Why wouldn't you use it on the street, Winchunalex, if it's non-comittal?

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
the wing chun stance IS NOT used. it' smore like a JKD one instead as it's more mobile and allows you to get in and out or reach quickly So what you're saying is that you do JKD, and not Wing Chun. Am I correct in my deduction?

[EnterTheWhip]

Sounds like a typical JKD mentality. You seem to be in the wrong forum, EC.

[EnterTheWhip]

EC, how are you "coping" with your identity crisis? Tai Chi, Wing Chun, JKD, Muay Thai... "I don't know you who I am..."

Do you ever feel itchy Empty, like you can't live in your own skin?

[KenWingJitsu]

Empty cup...good stuff. Pay no mind to those who don't train realistically or have no idea what sparring is or means.

That's a nice fake.

[Marky]

All "fun techniques" aside, it would be unwise to have a FAVORITE trapping technique. Of course, it's better to trap two hands than one, and it's better to trap the opponent's entire body and structure than just trap the hands. So I would be happy if I could get two hands, but I'll take what I can get.

Hey EmptyCup, I have a question about that stance you mentioned. The only place I go for JKD information is the Tao of Jeet Kune Do and Bruce Lee's other books, and the stance he described and gave pictures of was pretty much a wing chun stance. The only difference I saw was that they keep the rear heel raised to ensure they don't drag the rear leg and lose mobility. And he had his hands raised a little higher. Just wondering if I'm remembering correctly?

"The wing chun stance is NOT used. It's more like a JKD one instead as it's more mobile and allows you to get in and out or reach quickly" EC

I understand the "getting in quickly" part, but why would you want to get OUT? =) j/k

[bougeac]

"favourite trapping combo", hmm, sounds like "technique" based wing chun to me...

remember, there are no fixed fighting combinations in wing chun, just shapes that you learn how to apply correctly from chi sau.


trapping is (and should be) a by product of hitting, if you go into a fight with the idea in mind of trapping one hand or the other you will be in trouble real quick...

"conscious" trapping can be pulled off easily when you are both in wing chun structure, but try any of your "favourite" combinations against unknown attacks (and not wing chun structure) and watch your fave combos fall apart at the seams (i know because i used to be trapped (excuse the pun) in the trapping combination thing myself..)

feints ????, if you can feint you can hit, why waste time and energy??

[kj]

Originally posted by bougeac


Agreed.


[B]just shapes that you learn how to apply correctly from chi sau.

Yet the shapes are so much more than shapes.


feints ????, if you can feint you can hit, why waste time and energy??

Correct.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[OdderMensch]

EmptyCup
if you commit then if he blocks it or you miss you're basically committed to moving forward and into his reach

you are going to have to get into range sooner or later anyway. on't forget a jabbing technique can work both ways, you know his response, he knows the range your kick has, and where it is coming from. We refer to the use of fakes or probeing jabs as 'uncommited offense' both a wing chun fighter and a grappler will take advantage of them.

[wingchunalex]

lets say i go to punch the guy in the face. he's got his hands some where around chest level, he blocks your punch to his face.

next time you try the punch you know he can block it, but you also know it opens up his rib area.

so you feint to the face and hit the rib.

if you didn't feint to the face you couldn't have hit him in the face or in the rib.

you have to be able to do technique based wing chun before you can do the more flowing concept based wing chun.

if the technique isn't there the concept is worthless. wing chun concept woudln't work with tae kwon do.

going for a trap. i think going for a trap is not technique based wing chun, it is concept wing chun. its a concept of wing chun that if you control one hand they can not defend with that hand easily so that forces them to use thier other hand and then you use that against them. i think that maybe if you think going for a trap only gets you in trouble maybe you need to practice trapping more.

different variation on stance---

jkd stance vs wing chun stance isn't too much of a issue to me at least. at least with my wing chun the stance isn't 100 percent weight on back leg and facing squarely. mine is more 45 degrees with 40/60 weight. it can also be totally side facing, treating your shoulder as your centerline (like you do when you do a side kick, (at least i read that moy yat people do that, sunny tang book).

[wingchunalex]

i definately agree most wing chunners need more mobility. i definately DO NOT argee with the wing chun saying "wing chun never takes a step back" , that saying is only applicable against a less skilled oponent, or someone who is smaller and you go against wing chun and muscle them. as a concept related to always being on the attack the meaning is ok. (i read a really poor article trying to make a logical argument for never stepping back)

I think traditional wing chun footwork (if you consider that 0/100 weight) can work, it just takes more time to develope. kinda like tai chi. but then i don't use 0/100.

[anerlich]

TWC has a number of "bread and butter" trapping sequences that are practiced. Some of these appear in William Cheung's "Advanced Wing Chun".

A couple just for the hell of it:

Your are in right hand forward guard, he left hand forward. You pak his left elbow with your right and punch with your left, he paks your left punch with his right. You then slip your right hand up, larp his right hand and cross his arms, pinning them and punching.

You both have right hand forward guard. You strike with your right to the liver or floating rib to draw his right garn, then step in to pin his right elbow with your left gum sao and throw a right backfist to his face. He stops it with his right pak or wu, which you then larp with your left, cross his arms and double up the right backfist.

If you go into sparring or a fight with the goal of executing one of these sequences, failure is a likely outcome. If, however, you practice these assiduously, when the situation arises in sparring you are prepared to take full advantage of it. If you don't practice the sequences, the opportunity will be presented to you and you won't even see it.

Some of the sequences in the forms are like this as well. You think they look impractical and would never be achievable, you keep practicing them and then one day the opportunity suddenly appears in the chaos of flying limbs and ZIPPO! there it is, you take it.

A maxim I got from a good submission grappler is "take the gift, don't seek the bounty." But you have to be able to see the gift before you can take it.


sounds like "technique" based wing chun to me...

If WC isn't technique based, why are you practicing all those forms?

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by anerlich
If WC isn't technique based, why are you practicing all those forms? Techniques are the least important aspect of the forms, and the said system.

[bougeac]

so my trapping needs working on to make it work????
well, i have had REAL fights and know plenty of people (in the wing chun community who also have real experience) including my ex instructor who has 20 years plus in wing chun and im telling you mate, if you go into a fight (not messing about bouncing around playing at being bruce lee , throwing backfists and pak da/lop da combos at each other) with the mindset of tying up your oponents hands thus rendering him defenceless YOU WILL BE IN TROUBLE, if youre fighting a complete muppet then maybe once in a while you might just pull off a basic "intentional" trap..

please do not insult me by suggesting that i need to work on a particular part of my art, you know nothing about me or my experience, anyone with any correct knowledge of wing chun will tell you that in fighting using the art, the idea is to bridge and attempt center line control, what happens,happens you cant make an opponent fight your fight, reality is not like that.

feints ,back fists and bouncing around ala jkd is not wing chun i think youre posting on the wrong forum, try the jkd boys.

[black and blue]

Bridging can close down a gate, and closing down a gate can be trapping.

My Sifu once said of trapping: "It is only unlikely to work if you place too much emphasis on it and do not train it efficiently. If you train to trap from guard to guard position with set techniques and combinations, then it would not work.

"Techniques and combinations will let you down under pressure but your reflexes will not. That is why I place more emphasis on building 'body reflex'. To understand how to absorb energy and trap from an opponent's body motion and movement rather than trying to dictate a trap technique itself is more important.

"Trapping should not be restricted to the images of having a person's arm tied in front of them. What I mean by trapping, is being able to hit and not be hit. Bursting forward and pinning your opponent against the wall is trapping, moving the arm momentarily to enable a hit is trapping as well. In tight close quarters, if the chance for an elbow presents itself then I would take it. To me, trapping is grappling standing up. As I have said already, my overall aim is to hit and not get hit if this means trapping, then great, if it does not, I wouldn't care."

That's my Sifu's take on it.

:)

[bougeac]

hi black and blue, very eloquently put...

i have a lot of respect for sifu chan, i trained a few years ago in the kamon style and the quotes (from him i think) pretty much sum up exactly what trapping truely is...

[S.Teebas]

Techniques are the least important aspect of the forms, and the said system.

Agreed.

[black and blue]

Techniques are the least important aspect of the forms, and the said system.

I think I can understand where you're coming from (i.e. the concepts are the most important part of the forms), but the techniques (and by this I mean the shapes and structure) are surely not the least important part.

I've always thought that part of having good sets was using good positioning and energy in these shapes and structure. If the techniques are not overly important, perhaps there are other ways for us to examine the concepts found in SNT, CK, BT etc?

Just thinking out loud, and assuming you're all placing concept above technique.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
i wouldn't fake in real fights anyhow....just go for the kill :D
Can I ask why you do things in sparring that you wouldn't do in real fights?? I thought sparring was meant to approximate real fights.


WingChunAlex, You say........
i definately agree most wing chunners need more mobility. i definately DO NOT argee with the wing chun saying "wing chun never takes a step back" , that saying is only applicable against a less skilled oponent, or someone who is smaller and you go against wing chun and muscle them.So I guess you've seen "most wing chunners" in action. How do you know what "most" WC people do or need?

Also, please note that there is a big difference between taking a step back, and moving in and out of range like you've proposed in the past. You can take a step back, while maintaining your bridge, and take a different line, no problem. Just don't pop in and out like some Tae Kwon Do guy. That's a bad idea in my opinion.

Your mileage may vary.

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
and who said sparring couldn't be fun and improv? :D No one did. I was just asking. In fact it can be alot of fun, almost like a chess match with your opponent. In my sparring days I did enjoy it. However, fighting is strictly business.


sometimes i act like bruce lee and make funny noises and jump around while attacking my opponents :p
I hate it when guys do that. ;)

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
would you rather them act like david carradine and kick your ass with unstoppable slow-motion techniques? That would never happen, grasshopper. ;)

[yuanfen]

sometimes i act like bruce lee and make funny noises and jump around while attacking my opponents
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Now- that is really original!!!:rolleyes:

[Matrix]

I just want to know who hasn't done that at one point or another? It's almost a prerequisite, a right of passage.
Never take yourself too seriously, because nobody else does. :D